Break the Cycle of Pornography Addiction | Ryan Soave & Dr. Andrew Huberman

These days, I hear a ton of really um

desperate stories, mostly from young

guys. I've heard from maybe four or five

women on this, but literally thousands

of young men about porn addiction. Every

time I hear about it, I feel so

fortunate that I grew up in a time where

or maybe I just don't have the the

wiring for it. And if I did, I I would

be I'm pretty open on this podcast. I I

It's never been an issue for me. Um, and

they're telling me that they can't stop

watching porn. I get the sense that

they're not enjoying this experience

anymore because they're reaching out to

me saying, "How in the world can I

quit?"

And what do I tell them? I remember and

again I don't know this study but I

remember uh somebody referencing many

years ago when I was first getting in

the field that porn addiction at the

time specifically related to um video

pornography which is what it all is now

right

um it was having the same impact on the

brain and young men as crack cocaine I

mean it's extremely powerful has a lot

of other effects in that it sets up a

very unrealist istic idea and

perspective of what sex and intimacy is.

You know, it also uh can help uh or can

lead to kind of setting their sexual

template. You know, they can quickly

escalate just like you would escalate.

you kind of back to the the um uh hot

fudge Sunday where it doesn't work

anymore from you know something that

might seem like normal sex to violent

sex to really out there things that

um can bring a lot of shame that they're

even watching and it can escalate

quickly and then have an impact on their

own lives and relationships because

they're playing out those relationships

or that amount of intimacy intimacy

depending on what are doing also if

there's masturbation along with it in in

a fantasy. Well, what I'm also hearing

is that anytime they are in a real life

intimate scenario, which seems to be

fewer and fewer times nowadays in the

younger generation, that they're having

sexual uh anxiety, sexual performance

issues, which makes sense if they're if

their brain and nervous system is

getting wired by porn to observe sexual

behavior as opposed to being in the

experience of of of intimate sex

behavior, right? two different things to

be in the experience versus watching

someone else's experience of it which is

what pornography is. Yeah. This was

probably 10, 15 years

ago where we were treating some but we

treating a lot of soldiers that had come

back from Afghanistan or Iraq and you

know they had access this was like the

first wars where they had access to the

internet. I mean there's a lot of other

things. So there was a lot of uh kind of

uh combining of sex and violence, right?

they're around a lot of violence and

then they're watching sex and then that

kind of sexual template would set around

like in order for them to get pleasure

out of sex it would need to be

aggressive or even even violent um or

risk very risky you know so there's all

these things that kind of collapse

together there were other things going

on was like the first time that they had

also really had access to video uh uh

video chats to be able to like be on a

battlefield and then come back and be

talking to their spouse house about

something that's going on with the kids.

It was very confusing in environment for

uh those guys and men and women.

Um you know

the the porn addiction is a is a tough

one you know because it it's everywhere.

I mean now you can find it on any social

media almost not maybe not anyone but

it's not really limited you know and and

even if it's not you know I know certain

states have just put in where you have

to put in your ID to get it but there's

tons of ways around that and other sites

that that people can go to and I've run

into that with a lot of it does seem to

be young men you know and it's a way for

them to play out some sort of fantasy

around connection and relationship and

it's it makes their world really small.

I don't think it's the same as gambling,

but it can make it it can make their

world very very small in that they're

instead of finding relationships out in

the world. And it's not necessarily a

relationship, but they're what they

believe they're getting out of a

relationship, they're then getting out

of watching porn. It seems like

basically stopping completely is the

answer. And people say, and I'm not

trying to moralize here, right? I'm not

telling people what's moral about this.

I just know that any behavior or

substance that leads to quick repeated

inflections in dopamine is going to

create a groove in the nervous system

where you're going to crave that thing

and it's going to give you a lower and

lower sense of satisfaction over time.

And the only way to reset that circuit

is to stop and do something else in its

place ideally that's adaptive. These are

people that are asking you how they can

stop. You know, they're telling you I

can't stop. how do I do it? So, it can

be similar to other addictions, you

know, I mean, first the admission part

that it's a problem or awareness it is

and then being able to start to to talk

to somebody and start to take some

accountability around it. Not

accountability like you're doing

something wrong, but to be able to have

some sort of identify the behaviors that

start leading to that. You know, I mean,

there uh that can be done in therapy.

There's other 12step groups that can

help people with that to identify what

their sobriety would look like, if you

want to call it sobriety, what it looks

like. And if it does involve not

watching any porn, then that's the rule

set that they have. And then they figure

out either with their therapist or in

their treatment center or with their

sponsor or community in 12step like how

am I going to be held accountable to

that? And that might be doing the things

like we talked about laying out looking

at your your day ahead at the beginning.

They might need to look at things like,

you know, uh there's ways and software

out there to not be able to look at that

on your phone or have an accountability

partner that can, you know, you have to

they have to approve websites you go to.

And and that that that's not to say that

they have to do that forever, but it's

something that's available, right? You

know, 50 years ago or 30 years ago,

someone had to like find their dad's

porno mag somewhere and then look at it.

You know, now it's on their phones or

computers. Well, we know that accessibil

increasing accessibility increases

addiction, right? This has been studied

over and over again. And people say,

"What about red light districts and

things?" And there's some caveats that

have to do with when you uh create areas

within cities where certain things are

allowed, but you know, this has been

tested many, many times. Um it's also

true, and it's kind of a duh, but to

quote on it's impossible to get addicted

to a substance or a behavior that you've

never taken or engaged in, right? So,

some things are best avoided entirely.

Um, are there specific 12step programs

for porn addiction that are separate

from say sex addiction? If you people

look it up, I'm sure there's meetings

out there that that are specific to

that. There are um some treatment

centers that have tracks that deal

specifically with that. There's

therapists that work very closely with

that. And I I believe that there are

some 12step I mean there's pretty much

12step programs for any sort of you know

within things like SA or SLA there'll be

subsets of meetings for people that are

with a very specific condition. And one

of the reasons I wanted to discuss this

today is because I hear about it so much

is unlike alcohol or drugs, there's a a

kind of extra layer of shame associated

with with pornography addiction for

people. Um, you know, so many times

we've heard, oh, like this celebrity was

a alcoholic or drug addict, you know,

wrapped their car around a pole, was

arrested, this and that, then they get

sober and everyone still loves them

loves them more, right? If we knew that

a given celebrity was like a porn porn

addict or something, we look at that

person differently. Yeah. Especially if

they're male, we just look at them

differently. And so reducing some of the

shame around it, I think, is key to to

helping them recover because I can tell

you there's the the questions initially

came in kind of like as is often the

case with with men when they're trying

to talk about issues that they were kind

of cloaked in like what are your

thoughts about nofap, which is this

thing where guys um withhold

ejaculation, okay? Does it increase

testosterone? Turns out in the short run

it does, in the long term it's probably

not good for the prostate, etc. But then

what it turned out they were really

asking about masturbation. they were

really asking about pornography and

then all of a sudden I don't know what

changed out there but there's been this

deluge of of questions from young guys

of how they can stop engaging in online

porn. A key to that is what you said

about we look at them differently. You

know, they're going to keep it secret,

you know, and there's a saying secrets

keep us sick, but I believe there's like

a real almost a biology to that and

that, you know, if you're holding it in,

not sharing it, you know, there's no

really place for it to go but

shame. And shame separates us. And

separate, we're not connected. And not

connected, we're alone. And alone we're,

you know, we keep carrying that forward.

Alone we're

dead. You know, maybe not in that sense

anymore like we talked about earlier,

but like we're not really living. And so

they're, you know, these guys are

hearing you on a podcast and then DMing

you, right? They're probably not in a

personal close relationship with you,

right? it's it's easier to send it there

than maybe go ask for help with somebody

in their area or go to a meeting or

something like that because of the the

stigma. So, it's good that you've opened

up the ability for people to do that,

but to continue to direct them back to,

you know, let's try to treat this like

we would any other addiction at least

from the standpoint of you've got to

talk about it. You've got to have some

sort of admission. You've got to be able

to find a community around it. You want

to be able to do work, you know, most

likely with a therapist or a team of

therapists that can help you understand

what's driving that behavior.

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