WORLD'S #1 COUPLES THERAPIST: "If Your Partner Says THIS, the Relationship Is in TROUBLE!"

Couples come in basically saying,

"Doctor, can you change my partner? I

think you guys should just break up and

stop torturing each other or I'm just

not the right person for you."

Dr. Orna Girl is a clinical

psychologist, psychoanalyst, and a

writer. The star of the groundbreaking

show Couple Therapy. She explores the

depths of human relationships and

trauma.

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What would you say are the top three

things you hear when someone first comes

in to your office?

I often joke about it that that most

couples come in saying that they have

problems in communication.

Now, I understand that it looks like a

problem in communication because the way

couples interact with each other is by

mostly by talking, although there's a

lot of non-verbal talking through one's

feet. But where whatever is going on

between them manifests is going to be in

their communication. So, couples

typically think, if only we could

communicate better, our problems would

be solved. Um, so that's the number one

thing that people come in with. Then

there are particular kind of

we could say content areas that couples

come complaining about depending on

where they are in their life cycle. Very

common one is division of labor. It's

not fair. Who's doing what more?

Questions around intimacy

whether it's sex or spending time

together or connecting.

Then there are ways in which

their early childhood manifests in their

couple's life.

But I'd say those are like the key

areas.

So it sounded like when you were saying

people come in and they think

communication's the issue.

Yeah.

The look on your face was that's not

really the issue.

So what is the issue?

Right. Well, there are many issues, but

the thing is when you when you guide

people into how to communicate better

and how to really speak and listen to

each other and get to the heart of the

issue, usually they're real issues that

are underlying the issues of

communication. And often people make

communication difficult

because it's hard for them to touch the

real issues. So they defensively create

problems in communication.

So when you're asking what are the real

issues, at least from my perspective, I

think if I had to like summarize it in

the in the most succinct way, I would

say the real issue that couples face is

that they're

building a relationship or living with

another person who's different from

them. And that is really hard. It's very

exciting. It's a source of growth. It's

it's a source of desire. It's a source

of lots of good things. But it's also

incredibly difficult and annoying.

Whether it's like the small habits of

another person or the deepest core of

who they are and their values and their

politics, there are many ways in which

the otherness of your partner infringes

on you and puts you in all sorts of like

difficult positions.

Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking back to it. I

remember when my wife and I when we were

just dating and when we lived together

for a brief amount of time, that was

when I was like, "Oh, I think we could

be good together." Because it was it

felt easy to go to work, be in the same

space. We kind of had a good

distribution of household

responsibilities. Like, we we felt like

we had a flow. It's really interesting

to me because when I look earlier in my

dating life and when I speak to so many

people myself, sometimes you can be such

good partners when you're boyfriend and

girlfriend or whatever your makeup may

be, but then when you move in together,

you're not as good roommates.

Yeah.

And it feels like that transition is

where so much of this is discovered.

Yes. That is probably the first round in

which things are discovered like the

living together.

And you can think of it as compatibility

that some people just have similar

habits or you know they they like the

dishwasher loaded a particular way

similarly or and and it makes it easy.

But if you if you go kind of deeper

under, I think part of it is how do you

respond to otherness? How do you respond

to someone who's different from you in

the smallest way and in the biggest way?

And for some of us, differentness poses

a lot of issues, a lot of problems. It

feels intrusive. It makes you question

your own beliefs. It's you you you

immediately get into questioning who's

right, who's wrong, who's top, who's

bottom, otherness can trigger a lot of

stuff. Whatever the otherness is. And

for some people, it's more easygoing.

It's easier to just accept the fact that

people have different habits. Part of it

is compatibility and part of it is like

can you really are you ready to tolerate

another person and to adjust to another

person and and change in response to

letting someone else into your life. I'm

really appreciating the language with

which you're explaining this because I

genuinely don't believe I've heard it

that simply before and that well. And I

say that because I think we often make

it about do we have compatibility? Do we

have chemistry? Do we have connection?

And really, you're so right that it's

feeling otherred or otherness that

really causes all of our conflict. And

and I have I have a Oh, I want to

apologize. We never introduce Nico. I

think Nico is making me aware now. Nico

is saying like, "Wait, you left me out."

So,

this beautiful being that we have

roaming around us at all times is Nico,

who we're very grateful is here and is

even more beautiful in person. When

Radhi and I first started living

together, we found that we had very a

very small example, we had very

different routines in how we liked to

host and entertain. So if we had friends

over, we both want to have dinner with

them, but then after having dinner, I

want to hang out on the couch. I want to

talk to them. I want to relax. I want to

spend time with them. Radi wants to get

into the kitchen and clean

while everyone's there

and then go to hanging.

Yeah. and I want to hang out with

everyone and then I want to go and clean

when everyone's left.

Totally get it.

And mine comes from how I was raised. So

that's what we did in my house and hers

comes from how she was raised.

Right

now I don't think there's a better or

worse. I think it's a preference. But

what I found was that when I would hang

out straight after eating and I wouldn't

clean up, there were times when Radhi

would see that as me not valuing her

responsibility.

Exactly. shaking responsibility or you

expect me to do everything and that's

not how I felt but that's how it came

across.

That's why what you're saying resonates

with me so strongly because the

otherness of activity also leads to the

otherness of emotion and all of a sudden

now you're filling in the gaps of that

space of being otherred. So to her it

became I'm disrespected, I'm not valued,

uh you're sherking responsibility,

you're lazy, whatever it may have been.

Exactly. And for me, it became, well,

I'm just trying to hang out. What's

wrong with you? Why can't you just have

fun? You know, why do you have to be so

fixated on cleaning up? Like, why are

you so whatever it may be, right? So,

now

perfect. Can I

borrow this from from my book?

Yeah. Yeah, please. cuz this is like a

perfect example and just the way you

said it also that that's exactly it that

there's a space of difference and you

don't understand why you're different

and you immediately start building

theories that are basically meant to

answer the question

I how am I right and what's wrong with

you right because difference we can't

just it's very hard for us to just let

difference sit there and just say we're

just different and how are we going to

move with this difference? What's the

best way to move with it? We immediately

start like involving I don't know what

it is. It's like our ego or or something

about who we are that's at question with

difference. And that's where a lot of

the trouble starts coming in. Like you

build theories like she's building a

theory that you're like sherking

responsibility or oh here is another guy

just wanting the woman in the kitchen.

Yeah.

And you're like oh here is a wife that

doesn't want to have fun. She's just

going to be like nagging me to do this

that and the other. I mean we know the

theories. It's very easy to kind of

inject theories in there. But part of

what happens in in coup's work and you

you don't know you don't have to do it

through therapy but part of what happens

is you start tracking the automatic way

that you assign all these scripts to

your partner to avoid just dealing with

the discomfort of otherness. I think of

it sometimes like a thorn, like a thorn

that gets stuck in you that disrupts

your way of thinking about things. Like

suddenly there's another way of doing

things and you're like, "Wait a minute.

Do I have to think about how I'm doing

things at all? Do I have to question

what I'm doing? And how am I going to

respond to that provocation?" M and

what's the difference between like I

feel like for a lot of people

they maybe in the beginning they'll just

fold and do what their partner wants

because it's easier

right

and then maybe many years later they'll

be like I changed for you I did that for

you I did all these things for you but

you didn't value me and you know you

haven't changed or whatever it may be

totally

there's a lot of different versions of

that that's one version what's the right

balance between

looking for the right solution and

looking for. I I'm not a fan of the word

compromise.

What are your thoughts on the word

compromise?

Uh could you say a little bit more just

Oh, that's interesting.

I I don't love So, for example, for me,

I don't believe I think compromise is us

both saying, well, okay, well, I'll do a

little bit of this for you if you do a

little bit of this for me. Whereas to me

it's like well can we work together to

figure out what makes the most sense and

what is actually the most practical best

effective solution where everyone's

happier and I don't think that means

some like for example with this

situation

we have now believed that it is nicer to

host as long as Radhi has the peace of

mind that everything will be clean that

evening.

Yeah.

We've come to a conclusion which I don't

think is a compromise for either of us.

It's a feeling that we both found a

solution together.

And compromise to me makes me feel like

I gave up something or I lost out on

something or she did

something for me that's important. If

she said to me, Jay, it is so important

to me that we clean up right away. I

would value that and I would do it. I

don't want to do it because I feel

forced to or I have to. That's my issue

with it. I'm thinking about how I work

it out with couples when

first of all couples need to abandon the

idea that one of them is completely

right and one of them is wrong. Right?

You you you want to approach the

difference with the idea that you're

equal partners, that you each have a

valid point of view even if it's

different. And that's actually not an

easy thing to get to.

It's so hard.

So hard. Right.

I see that being the biggest challenge

for couples. And it would be interesting

to think about like why is it so hard

for us? But it's very hard. But once you

approach a difference in terms of it

simply being two equal partners

struggling with difference then you want

to create a space and I agree with you

that to simply compromise is sometimes

just a quick fix and it kind of it's

like a band-aid that underneath it can

breed resentments and and you can

eventually somehow go back to the idea

that it's not fair. or I compromise more

than you or but to do what you're

suggesting doing which is to really put

both minds to it and arrive at a

conclusion together is actually really

hard. You have to overcome

both a lot of your own convictions,

selfish needs and really work for the

good of the relationship of the total

the total good. That's why I often say

that couples form between them like a

political system. It's like the first

political system of how do you resolve

difference? Are you going to be like

autocratic or democratic in terms of how

you resolve a difference?

Interesting. I like that.

Sometimes I go back to um reminding

people of how when you have two kids

playing and wanting to play with the

same toy, like how do you coach kids on

what to do in that case? Do you take

turns? Do you give both kids the same

toy? Do you just remove the kids from

the situation and say, "Oh, they can't

play well together." Do you leave one

kid crying, having to compromise in a

way that was just really depriving for

them and they were not ready for? All

this to say that this solution that

you're suggesting, which is to really

put your minds together and figure out a

solution that is good for everyone, is

hard. I do think it's the best one, but

I think it requires a certain kind of

honesty and

willing to give up a certain kind of

investment, selfish investment in the

thing that that you believe in. You have

to like relax your convictions. It

It makes so much sense to me because I

feel like most issues are this.

Yeah.

And most people are not solving this.

Yeah. and we're lost trying to solve

some other puzzle.

And I couldn't agree with you more that

whether I'm talking to a family member,

a friend, a coaching client, or I'm

watching something on TV or hearing from

someone about something, this is the

problem. Yep.

And this is the root of it that we don't

want to accept that someone else may be

right and we may be wrong.

That someone else may have a better idea

than ours

and ours may be worse. and that the way

their parents did things might actually

supersede the way our parents did

things. And we don't like that

because it makes us feel almost disloyal

to our own upbringing.

There's like a feeling of I'm betraying

what my parents did. I'm betraying

tradition.

Y

there's a ego conflict there of

but this is my identity. This is who I

am. And by telling me there's another

way, a better way, you're almost making

me feel like my identity is becoming

more and more insignificant day by day.

And I'm losing something that grounds

me. What's going to happen to me if I

don't have this identity?

Exactly.

And the loyalty can be to to parents. It

can be to to a particular group that

you're associated with. It could be to

your religion. And it can be to a an

ideology or a belief system that that

you feel like your yourself kind of

depends on. No one wants to be in a

relationship where their partner is just

waiting for them to change for the

relationship to really start. We're

self-centered.

We we've got like, you know, the the our

perceptive field and we don't really see

the other. and working through that and

and getting to a more humble place where

you understand that you've been more

selfish and then in certain ways you are

exploiting your partner. It's an

important piece of the work. There's a

certain level of acceptance that has to

happen. Of course, we want to change and

get better and grow with each other, but

you can't really be in a conditional

relationship. That's not going to work.

How do you open up to the idea

that someone else's value

may be helpful without devaluing

yourself? Almost. How do you open up to

the idea that someone else and you can

build something together without feeling

like you're losing and merging yourself?

Because I think what's interesting here

is the person often with the better idea

is also not doing it to find a common

solution. they also just want you to go

their way and so we're also not being

led perfectly if that makes sense

right you know ideally you want to

create conditions where it stops being

about who's right who's wrong but again

it's for the the the good of everyone

like the you ideally you want kind of

the questions of the ego to kind of drop

to the background and to really get into

the state of mind where both

participants feel acknowledged, safe,

and they don't have to worry about their

their identity or their ego or their or

their personal investment. And they have

a feeling that they're going to gain

something for the good of the couple or

the family or the unit that there's

something that exceeds them that will

benefit from this. And and to get there,

there are many ways to get there. But um

I know what I try to do in my practice

is to create

first of all a sense of you know what

people call now in in in popular

language like a a safe space. And what

does that mean? It means a space in

which what matters to you in a deep way

is heard, is respected. You may not

necessarily get exactly your way, but

you feel on a basic human level that

your dignity, your your the things you

care about that really matter to you are

seen and respected and that whoever's

negotiating with you will take that into

account, not just kind of, you know,

bulldoze over you. And when people feel

cared for in this way by the therapist

or eventually by their partner, they're

willing to do a lot. I think people were

all mostly we have like an incredibly

generous creative spirit within us that

if we stop feeling threatened, we we

want to operate from there for the

better of everyone. And I think when you

get to a solution where one person

feels, "Oh, I got my way." And the other

one didn't,

it never ultimately feels good.

It might feel good in the moment, like

you got a momentary win, but you're left

with this kind of churning,

uncomfortable feeling that you took

something that you shouldn't have taken

from someone.

Yeah. I think I think the challenge that

people experience is like let's say it's

the holidays and

I'm saying to you I'm like I know we're

going to your families for Christmas. I

just want you to know that I really feel

uncomfortable around your parents

because I feel like they're always,

you know, picking at my career or

they're always making me feel a bit

insecure about something like this or

maybe they're somewhat downplaying some

of my achievements or whatever. I just

want you to know that sometimes I feel

triggered like let's say I say that to

my partner.

Yeah,

very untrue for my life but actually

it's a very common thing for others. and

your partner doesn't have what I find

today is people don't have the

capability

to validate you right

without feeling like they're

invalidating themselves.

Yeah.

So the person responding to that goes,

"How can you say that about my parents?

They love you. I mean, they love you.

Like what are you talking about? Like oh

my god, they they've got you an amazing

gift. Like it's a surprise. Like you

don't even know. Like you know, oh my

god, they were just asking about you

yesterday." And you're like,

"No, I get that. I'm not saying they're

not loving, but I just feel like I get

really triggered because of this, this,

and this." and they're like, "Look,

you're just crazy. Like, just, you know,

don't worry about it. Like, just just

it's not a big deal."

And it's not that that person is mean.

Your your partner is not being mean, but

they don't realize because they're so

scared. Or they'll say something to you

like, "I can't believe you can say that

about my parents. My parents are loving,

wonderful people, and now you feel

really hurt and pushed away because

you're like, well, wait a minute." So I

find that often when people share how

they actually feel,

the person on the receiving side doesn't

know how to receive that

totally

because they're scared that if they

accept that then then they have to

accept that their parents are the worst

people on the planet or whatever else

comes with that criticism. How do we how

do we kind of wrap our head around that?

Yeah, you're you're capturing something

very significant. I think first of all

just to understand why is that kind of

moment so difficult before even trying

to think of the solution.

I think one of the thing it brings up

for people let's say to to go with the

example you're raising it brings up both

conflicting loyalties what you were

saying earlier loyalty to your family of

origin loyalty to your culture loyalty

to yourself your sense of goodness

versus your loyalty to taking care of

your partner and caring about their

feelings. That's a real inner conflict

that that kind of predicament puts the

receiving partner in. They're conflicted

between these loyalties. Just to

underline something here, to be in a

state of inner conflict is difficult.

It's difficult for all of us. We like

simple solutions. We like right or

wrong. We like good or bad. We don't

like I love my parents. They're awesome.

They've taken such good care of me, but

they're also hurting my partner. It's

it's very uncomfortable for all of us to

be in inner conflict. So to understand

that putting your your partner in that

position is already asking them to sit

in a difficult position for themselves.

So what to do in that case? I think what

I do when I work with couples when

they're in that kind of predicament is I

help both of them understand the

difficulties they're going through in

having the conversation. not the

solution but why is the conversation

difficult let's say the receiving

partner whose parents are criticized I

might slow them down and first of all

ask them to talk about what kind of

position that puts them in like to try

to describe the inner conflict it puts

them in like their love for their

parents and I ask the partner to

understand that they're asking their

partner to position themselves

away from their parents and that's a

hard thing to do.

And I'm asking the the receiving partner

to understand that the person who's

let's say criticizing their parents or

talking about being triggered is also a

complex person who's talking about

having multiple kinds of feelings. They

can both appreciate the parents,

appreciate their connection to the

parents and have another kind of

feeling. We're talking about kind of

expanding the the spectrum of what

people can hear and feel hear from each

other feel in themselves and calm down

about it. It's okay to have conflicting

multiple feelings and nothing has to be

like an immediate resolution. Okay, that

means I'm never coming to Thanksgiving

with your parents or I'm going to be a

jerk and not talk to your father. It's

okay to have all these feelings and sit

and eat the turkey.

Yeah. A lot of I feel like a lot of men

feel caught in between their mom and

their wife if they're in a absolutely

heterosexual relationship. Like there's

this conflict of oh my gosh, I've got to

choose between my mom

and my wife

or my girlfriend or whatever whatever it

may be.

Which is true.

Which is true.

It's true. You have to make a

transition. When you get involved with a

significant other, you're making a

transition. And I mean I I love the fact

that you brought up the idea of

loyalties which is so powerful for all

of us. Loyalties to family, loyalties to

ideas. There is an element of making a

transition from belonging to one group

to belonging to a new family or new

group and and that is hard. It's hard

for the person and it's hard for the

mother and it's hard for everyone. Let's

talk about that because I think

culturally and different cultures have

different expectations too. So for

example in the Indian culture

yeah it's generally seen that the woman

becomes a part of the man's family. Now

that's a very traditional idea.

I was very fortunate to grow up in a

home that was far more broad-minded than

that and we don't I don't subscribe to

it at all.

What generation are you?

I'm like first generation in in England.

First generation in England. Yeah. First

generation in England. I definitely

don't subscribe to that idea. To me,

it's

dehumanizing of the individual who kind

of becomes like, oh, you were

you're like an object.

Yeah. You're like an object that's now

been placed over. Now, do I believe that

we're part of each other's families? Of

course.

But I think for me, it was very clear

that we were now building something

together.

Yeah.

And that became the priority. And the

buildings that we both came from were

homes that we could always visit and be

a part of, but we had to be very careful

in curating the home. And I I explain

this the way I like couples to think

about it because I know a lot of people

who when I say this to them, they get

robbed the wrong way because they're

like, "What about culture? What about

tradition? What about my family values?"

Going back to loyalty.

Yeah.

And I like people to think about it like

designing a home. And we were talking

about that earlier. Yeah. So, you grew

up in a certain home and your partner

grew up in a certain home. And I'm

guessing when you move into a home or

you rent an apartment or whatever it is

that you both decide to do together, you

design it to your tastes together. It

would be very rare for you to say, "I

want this to look exactly like my mom's

home." And it would be very rare for

that person to say, "I want this to look

exactly like my dad's home." Chances are

you're both going to come together and

you maybe one of the partners takes the

lead because the other person doesn't

have much interest or talent or skill

and you end up creating this space. But

the point was you knew you were creating

something together, right?

And so I like to think about it like

that where it's like, okay, well, we're

designing something together and that

doesn't mean we don't take influence and

inspiration from the homes we came from,

but we're not trying to mirror those

homes perfectly, no matter how amazing

they were. How do we open up our minds

to that? Because I think so many people

just go, "Well, no, this is how it's

done and this is how it's meant to be."

People come into relationships probably

with your idea that they're going to

create something together and that's

their kind of conscious mind. But then

as the relationship starts to kind of

take shape,

all sorts of unconscious loyalties,

so true,

creep in. And then a person might

believe that they're creating this new

home, but they suddenly feel like, to

use it metaphorically, but the foyer has

to look a certain way, and they don't

even know why, but it's coming from

their family of origin. A certain kind

of It makes me think also of um queer

couples that that that were raised by

straight parents. They have to really

rebrand everything and recreate. they

can't rely on the old model, but they

don't have another model to rely on yet.

So, it creates like all these like

confusions like wait, are we trying to

build kind of a straight like

relationship or are we creating

something totally new?

And it's hard to create new. I mean,

it's it's there's something that's easy

when you rely on like an old model that

was handed down to you and you don't

have to like reinvent things and you

don't have to think and wonder what's

right, what's wrong. You're just kind of

repeating something that was done.

Yeah.

It it comes up again around questions of

raising children. That's like then it

starts all over again like what's the

right way to raise children and you know

I don't know

sleep training or this is just

Yeah. And then both your parents have

ideas on how you should raise the kids

too. And now you're fighting about what

your parents think is the right way to

raise kids. You're like well my mom

raised me and she did a great job. And

then you're like, well, my mom raised me

and she did a great job

and now it's like my mom's better than

your mom and and it's you. But that's

that is what people are those are the

conversations people are having, right?

Like that's what you're hearing too.

Yes, I'm hearing that a lot when people

have the experience of letting go of the

right, wrong, either or when they work

through problems in a different way,

they it does get internalized and people

get the hang of it and the and the good

feeling of oh my god, it's not my ego

doesn't have to be at stake with every

discussion or right wrong is not the

only way to think about things. There

there are like so vast other ways to

think about difference and when you get

into the groove of that the world opens

up.

Yeah. I think we need to give people a

vocabulary for that.

Yeah.

And and it's really hard when we've

lived in a very logical rational world.

Yeah.

Where like you learned math and there

was something there was a right answer

and there was a wrong answer.

Right. Although even in math it's not

true. There are many ways to get to a

solution.

Yeah. But the way we were taught in

school,

there was always a right and wrong

answer. So, we don't really have the

ability like,

and I keep coming to art as a way of

talking about it. It's like

art just doesn't have a lot of right and

wrong.

It's just taste.

Yeah.

And taste can taste is not good or bad.

It's just taste. It's just like

you could put a color that doesn't make

sense next to another color

and it could work and it could not work,

but you're not looking at it in a binary

way. You have a reason for why it's

placed there.

Yeah.

And and I think we've in in trying to

get to right and wrong. We've lost our

reasoning power.

Yeah.

Of like why am I doing this? Why are we

doing this? How are we behaving?

Yeah.

How quickly do you know when you meet

someone whether they're going to make it

or not?

A couple.

Yeah. You know, I don't make quick

judgments. I really refrain from that

because I think humans to me, I mean,

and I've been working as a psychologist

and analyst for many years, but humans

to me remain in in principle remain a

certain kind of mystery.

There's something about humans that is

like ever surprising to me. And when a

couple walks in,

they might look like they have like the

most intense kind of hair raising

problems. My general approach is I want

the mystery of why they're together and

what they're trying to have with each

other reveal itself and and I want to

line up with that part of them. So I try

really try not to rush to any kind of

judgment. Oh, these guys are never going

to make it. I mean there are certain

things that let's say bother me when

with couples. I mean when they're very

committed to a certain

stance of

let's say contempt or put downs or if

you want you can call it abuse although

abuse is a complicated word nowadays but

there's a certain kind of um pleasure in

sadism that some couples develop that

they get hooked on a certain kind of sat

masochistic dynamic

that I'm I'm not into and if I can't

convince a couple, most couples want to

get out of that. They don't enjoy it. Um

I'm not talking about kink. I'm talking

about like

a pernitious kind of mutually

destructive way of engaging. And if I

can't convince a couple to move out of

that mode, if there's something that is

too tempting for them, then either I I

think you guys should just break up and

stop torturing each other or I'm just

not the right person for you. I don't

want to be in the presence of that. Um,

but that mostly people are not into

that. They might get stuck in that kind

of pattern and they look for me to help

them, but most people want to get out of

that and and they go for the honey, you

know, they go for the good. if you just

help them figure out how

if if a couple's stuck in the blame game

like look this is all your fault and

then the other person's like well I've

been trying my best you know but it's

really what you've been doing

how do you start rewiring that

conversation what does it take what are

the steps to getting out of the blame

game which seems to be such a common

place

right it's big um there's no there's no

one way because people get stuck in that

blame game which is pernicious um for

different reasons. My job and when

people are in that kind of pattern is to

convince each of them to kind of release

the grip they have like be a little less

convinced and sure about their own

narrative.

just get a little less stubborn about

your narrative and start getting curious

about other ways to see things and then

start getting curious about yourself

rather than hyperfocus on your partner

and put everything outside like try to

pull back from that hyperfocus and start

asking yourself questions. Why does this

thing bother me so much? What is the

thing that is like making me crazy? Like

if if we went back to like the example

of like the the dinner parties, like why

is it so important to clean right after?

What's the fear? If the if the dishes

sit there for another 2 hours, what

what's the issue? Like look back at

yourself. Don't focus on your partner.

What's he doing not doing? What's

getting stirred up in you? And usually

you find really interesting things

there.

Like when people are really willing to

like pull away from their partner and

look into themselves, they're like, "Oh,

this is really interesting.

This is kind of reminding me of blah

blah blah." And then suddenly it's less

about the partner and there's a whole

world to discover about yourself and and

and the whole intensity of blame goes

down and then people get curious about

each other, you know, and you're going

to be like, "Oh yeah, I noticed that

your mom is like so fidious and she's so

afraid of germs and what happened to her

when she was a kid and like a whole

world opens and and the whole blame

thing becomes less interesting."

Yeah. I remember doing that for myself

and realizing I thought I'd been

tolerant of my partner and then realized

my wife's actually been so tolerant of

me.

Like you have that kind of 180° view

where you just go, "Oh, wait a minute. I

thought I was the one like doing

everything."

But that's because I never kept score on

her scorecard.

Yeah.

Right. It was very easy for you to

always look at things through your lens.

Totally.

You can always count the amount of

overtime hours you did. It's the same at

work. You can always count the amount of

effort you've put in, but you never see

anyone else's effort. You never see and

and we also miss the

like when our partner lets us off with

bad behavior or a bad mood.

You don't take note of that.

No.

But then when your partner when you, you

know, react to your partner's bad mood

or whatever, you're like, "Oh my god,

look, I held back and I was doing that

for me."

Yeah. Why aren't you doing that for me?

But when you you're you're describing

this change in you, the thing that is

interesting to me and I I often try to

bring couples attention to that is I

would assume that when you had that

change, it actually felt really good.

Oh, for sure.

Right. People are so afraid that they're

going to lose something, but they gain

something when they go through that

change. That's what I was talking about

earlier. like the world opens and and

good feelings come in like, "Oh, we're

both in it together. We're not like, oh,

she's bad, I'm good, and like she's to

blame." And it's suddenly like, "Oh,

we're both human together. We're both

flawed. We're both awesome."

Yeah. What happens when objectively

someone is being genuinely taking taken

advantage of? So it's like they're doing

all the chores. They're contributing 50%

financially. They're

their feelings are not heard or seen.

Yeah.

They're never validated.

The person does actually have an

expectation that you're meant to do all

this. This is who you are. This is your

role in life.

Yeah.

How does someone think through that when

they still feel the person's a good

person? And

first of all, I have to say it's more

rare than you'd think. Oh, interesting.

Yeah. It sometimes looks like that, like

one person could be like, you know, like

you're saying, doing all the work and

the other person is like mooching off

them and but when you look at the

relationship, often what you find is

that they're contributing in some other

very subtle way. It could be not

something you can really put your finger

on, but they're like the let's say

they're loyal to the

couplehood. They're holding like the the

the the

whatever that thing of the boat is

called, the keel of the boat.

They're they're like the most romantic

and holding on to the deepest idea of

what the couple is despite all the

fighting or they might be contributing

in ways that are hard to account for.

and and it's important to to unearth

that and give each person a sense of

what their contribution really is. Some

of the work that I have to do with

couples is

make people aware and accountable for

where they are being selfish because we

all have an inclination to, as you said

earlier, to only see our own work and

only see our own point of view. And

we're selfish and we're not even

selfish. We're self-centered.

We we've got like you know the the our

perceptive field and we don't really see

the other and working through that and

and getting to a more humble place where

you understand that you've been more

selfish and then in certain ways you are

exploiting your partner. It's an

important piece of the work. I have to

go about it. It's it's hard for all of

us to acknowledge that. So I have to bo

go about it gingerly and and sensitively

with people and and give a lot of

reinforcement for being willing to take

on that less pretty part of ourselves.

But ultimately, like you were saying

earlier, it's it's it's

a gratifying process.

That that's why it it sounds

almost like polyanish or corny

especially nowadays, but I do believe in

the goodness of people. We ultimately

want what's good for our partner.

Yeah. It's just that

we want what's good for our partner, but

maybe we don't know what's good for

them. Yeah.

Right. And we often think we know what's

good for our partner or right for our

partner.

And that's sometimes our greatest

mistake.

Yeah.

Because we're not really listening to

them or

right

taking in from them what they're saying

and and feeling.

We're self-centered. We're narcissistic

in many ways. There there's a way in

which our world view is limited by

being, you know, the way especially the

way we're raised. I actually wonder what

you'd think about this because I think

it's it's very different in Western

versus other cultures. But but we're

raised with such a focus on the self. I

mean, there's a certain kind of

narcissism built into our culture that

makes it harder for us to be in in deep

relationships.

Mhm.

Do do you have thoughts on this?

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I I feel that to

me relationships have to be about growth

and service. And I think we think that

they're about pleasure

and ease.

Yeah. And self.

And self. And that's what I mean by

pleasure. Pleasure is always the self is

always linked to pleasure generally

and ease and comfort. And it's funny

because growth and service are the exact

opposite. So growth is the opposite of

ease and comfort

and service is the opposite of

self-centeredness. Yeah,

it

mean

I have just had fun. So, it's like we

have lots of fun. Things are great. But

I've become a better human because of

this relationship. Absolutely.

On so many levels. I've become more

self-aware.

I've become less egotistical. I've

become more

conscious of my flaws. And it's happened

all in a less judgmental way. And I

think that's the part that I think

people get wrong is that we say this is

the person that we want to love forever,

but they end up becoming the person we

judge forever.

Yeah.

And they become the person that we

criticize forever. And they become the

person that we complain about forever.

And the person you said you wanted to

love forever becomes the person who

actually gets the least loving part of

you.

Yes.

And so when I say growth and service, I

don't mean subservience. when I say

service and I don't mean judgment when I

say growth because I think a lot of

people think oh well if I'm going to

point out all my partner's flaws so that

they can grow and I look I'm helping

them and I'm like well no that you know

Radi's never done that to me and I think

that's one of the reasons why we have a

healthy relationship because we both

don't do that we both feel like we're

guiding and coaching each other on

things we both opt in and say we want to

work on

what would you say if you had to

characterize each of your basic stances

towards each other. Well, how would you

describe it?

Oh, that's interesting. I I don't know

if I've even have the vocabulary for

that. It's a great question. Um, I would

say I am completely in awe of my wife. I

love her. I find her to be the most

adorable, wonderful human being. I can

like look at a, you know, a video or a

picture of her and I just, it's we've

been together for 11 years and I'll just

feel this like

overarching feeling of love towards her.

That's my stance.

I would have to ask her for this

question. I guess perceive it. I think I

think if she was answering this in a

question to you or when I wasn't in the

room,

Yeah.

I think she'd say that she has a deep

sense of respect. And I don't want to

use the word adoration out of context,

but like there's a if if she's sharing

how she feels with me in private or in a

in a special moment or through a friend

who said something to me, it would it

would be that I think she just she

trusts me deeply. She has a very

positive feeling towards me as a human,

let alone just as a partner.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

And I don't Yeah. And you know sometimes

I have to get that out of there but you

know it's

but that but that's what you're

describing sort of what you're it's like

the space that you're creating for each

other right to live in that that kind of

basic stance like when you were asking

earlier like what what are couples that

will not make it. I mean that's that's

what you want. You want the couple to

create that kind of space between them

to live in that you're creating the

world in which you're living.

How do you encourage them to do that

when they're saying to you, you know,

when he Yeah. When I look at my partner,

he's like, I know he's a good guy at

heart. I I know I know he's I know he

means well,

but he just you know all he does is

watch football all weekend and like he

always forgets my birthday

and you know it's just like it's always

about like spending time with his family

and like you know I don't even think he

even he never wants to talk about his

feelings like you if that's what you're

hearing it's very difficult

and I do hear I do hear that

exactly how do you encourage them to

heal that

well hopefully you know to have that

kind of stance that you described so

beautifully like that you each kind of

provide for each other. First of all, it

you have to have that capacity inside

you, right? Meaning it speaks to some

way that you come into the relationship

with a capacity to love, right? Like a

capacity to experience those kind of

feelings towards another person. And

then

which is great and I believe

most of us have that. I mean most of us

have enough good inside us that we have

that it's just now how do you create the

conditions where that is the thing that

can come out and couples come into

treatment basically I often

joke about the fact that

couples come in basically saying doctor

can you change my partner that that's

like they won't say it but that's really

why couples come into my office can you

please change my partner everything will

be okay if you just change her. But when

you get people less invested in what we

were saying earlier, like the blame,

blame, blame, and he did this, she did

that, and get them back into the this

feeling of awe about another person,

this feeling like, but actually look at

them. They're just so wonderful in some

elemental way, in some way that I know.

I know their goodness.

Remember that feeling like approach them

from that place,

you're creating the conditions for that

person to thrive, right? When when your

when your wife looks at you with

adoration, that's when your best self

will come out. When your wife looks at

you like, "Gh, you up again."

For sure.

You're just like, "I don't care anymore.

I'm I'm going to go play video games."

Like, who needs that, right? So you're

you're by the way you're looking at your

partner, you're inviting certain parts

of themselves out. And I remind people

of that. We respond to each other. We

respond to the gaze to the the music

we're sending each other. And it it

invites different parts of us out.

What about when someone feels I've given

them too many chances. I've I've given

them that lens for too long

and they're just not shifting. But

they've not done anything terrible where

I need to leave them. but they're also

not making any progress on this path.

And I kept looking at them with a loving

lens, with a compassionate lens, but I

just keep running out of patience.

In that case, I would need to hear from

the partner what's going on.

I mean, some people I mean, is the

partner depressed? I don't know what

what's going on there. Like, if if

really a lot is on is being offered and

the partner can't pick up on those

nutrients,

what's going on?

Are they maybe they're going through

something? Maybe they're maybe there's

something completely different going on

on their end. Some kind of grudge or

something that they haven't had a chance

to to really articulate. I mean, that

would be interesting for me if that

happens. That's not the typical thing

that happens between people.

Interesting.

I mean, typically if you put good out,

good will come back. And I like that

idea of when you look at your partner in

a certain way, it's what they feel and

it's what you feel. And I think it goes

back to that human need we all have as

wanting someone to believe in us.

Yeah.

There's such a feeling like I believe

everyone has that at the core.

Of course,

like everyone but but there's very few

people who believe in you or at least

you make you feel that way.

Yeah. It starts obviously, you know, you

know, I'm a psychoanalyst, so I'm

eventually going to go back to

childhood, but it starts with the way

whoever raised you looked at you. Like

what was the, you know, it doesn't have

to be the mother, but what was the look

in your mother's eye

when she saw you? Did the mother's eyes

ultimately sparkle and like, oh, my

baby, or did the mother always say, gh,

you're always disappointing. Right? that

there's like this basic way in which

we're invited into the world or not

that stays with us and and that's a

powerful kind of early

early platform from which we operate.

What's the first hard question you

should ask yourself in a relationship?

I would say um

maybe am I ready

to let someone else in

with their otherness

with the challenge to my narcissism?

Am I ready for that?

This is sort of following everything

we've been saying. That's a great

question.

Can I give?

Yeah. Can I give?

Yeah.

Yeah. And can I hold space

for someone else to have to go through

their transformation?

Yeah.

Because chances are they're not going to

come fully formed.

Right.

And even if they're perfect on my

wedding day or right now,

chances are they're going to go through

stuff.

Yeah.

And being honest with myself cuz I think

sometimes we feel guilty.

I know a lot of people who say to me,

"Jay, I would have stayed with him."

Like they're someone that they're

dating. They're not married. They're not

in a committed relationship. They're

like, "I would have stayed with him, but

I don't think I can for what he has to

go through and grow through."

Wow.

You know, he's not ambitious. He needs

to figure out his career. He's

struggling with his mental health. Like,

I don't know if I want to be the person

to go through it with him.

Right. Although I would also say in that

case

you're not ready.

You're not ready. And no one wants to be

in a relationship where their partner is

just waiting for them to change for the

relationship to really start. You want

to feel like your relationship is your

home, not the future home you're going

to have if you change.

Yeah.

There's a certain level of acceptance

that has to happen. And of course, we

want to change and get better and grow

with each other, but you can't really be

in a conditional relationship.

I'm going to love you when you change.

I'm going to be generous with you when

you change. That's not the real thing.

That is what people want.

That's that's not going to work.

I literally feel like we find someone

that we find attractive

and that we enjoy our time with and then

we want to change everything else about

them. True. Like that's literally what

we're looking for. Cuz you'll meet

people who like they'll find the person

who actually has everything set up for

the future,

but we're not attracted to them and we

don't like hanging out with them and so

we're like, "Oh, I can't be with you

obviously."

But then we the opposite. We're like,

"Oh yeah, you're my person. I'm

attracted to you." We love hanging out

and having drinks and we have good

banter and we can, you know, we can spar

verbally.

Yeah.

And you must be the perfect person for

me even though I don't like anything

about your actual life.

What? like you're not ambitious, you

don't have a good career, you don't make

enough like all the stuff that we think

is important, right?

I would probably frame it differently.

Please,

I would say the person that you

really kind of get hooked on to and feel

like you are the person I want to be

with

probably has in them components of

things that are really important for you

to revisit and work on that are not

easy.

And

but you don't know that.

You don't know that. You just in your

gut, you're terribly attracted to that

person. And and no matter all the other

good partners that seem to have all the

good qualities are not sticking and then

that one partner, that one person you

keep going back to because there's

something there.

Then the preoccupation with wanting to

change that partner is typically some

way that you're working through

something deep within yourself. Cuz you

know ultimately I mean even when people

talk about ambition or or it's like it's

not about that like why do you need your

partner to be so ambitious? You go be

ambitious if you want ambition. It's

it's usually you're working through

something. There was a couple on the

show that that were a great example of

that where the woman started off with

like really intense complaints about her

husband that he's not ambitious.

And

ultimately we learned that

a lot of it had to do with like her mom

and father like a repeat of some kind of

old story that never got resolved

between her parents. and she was totally

working it out through her husband. And

once she got focused on the parents and

on her early history, she was suddenly

back to like the best friendship in the

world with her husband. They they were

just like so adorable together,

you know? It's it's often something else

that creates this kind of you got to

change for me.

Yeah. Yeah. because it reminds us of

something from

it reminds us of something that we

haven't resolved or that your parents

haven't resolved or it could be like

I don't know if we want to get into that

but it could be like something like

politically that wasn't resolved I'll

just say in general that that couldn't

resolve a certain issue of passports

between them that had to do with one of

them being Palestinian and like not

having like statethood and would fight

with their partner

about passports, but it had nothing to

do with the partner. It didn't even have

to do with their own families. It had to

do with Palestinian identity. All sorts

of things make their way into what seems

like an issue between the partners that

come from really other places.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, I'm I'm when people start like

blaming their partner for stuff, for me,

it's like a riddle.

Yeah.

What is this really about? And those are

the kind of questions that if we reflect

on it ourselves too,

it can help us so much. I mean, are you

do you find that are women more prone to

be the fixes?

First of all, I think things are

changing as far as genders, so it's a

little hard to make

real statements about like women and

men. But if I had to kind of say

something general, I'd say women are

they're raised to be more kind of tuned

into the

ins and out of a relationship and kind

of take care of the relationship in a

certain way in terms of like talking

more, bringing feelings to the table.

And men are more tuned into like the

frame around the relationship and and a

certain kind of loyalty over time. They

they add a certain rudder to the

relationship.

So it it's different ways of tending to

the relationship. But even that it

changes a lot. And of course it then

looks very different in queer

relationships. So,

of course,

but that's kind of my

crude generalization about women and

men.

Yeah. How how have you helped men who

struggle to open up about their emotions

open up?

Because I think

sometimes there's a lot of pressure for

a man to show up emotionally,

right?

But he may never have had that training

or that vocabulary or that safe space

his whole life.

Well, he probably has. anti-training,

right? Men men are I mean, again, it's

different nowadays, but typically men

are raised to

disavow their feelings, focus on

um power, protection.

I mean, important functions, not not to

minimize that. There's there's a lot of

value in those, but but they're they're

raised to

turn away from their feelings. And

I what I do in my work with men is

I

in a way teach them to pay attention to

small hints about their emotional world

and they're always there. A stomach

ache, a tightness in the chest,

a habit that is not good for them. and

to follow those beginning hints and

clues and try to get curious about what

else can they tell me about their

emotions.

And when they start getting in touch

with feelings, it's usually it's very

gratifying. It's it's good to get in

touch with your feelings. It it feels

good. You feel more grounded. Your your

your world gets richer and your

relationships get better. So, it's it's

really starting from the little clues

from and and developing curiosity and

then kind of developing a menu like a

vocabulary for all these little things

that happen in you like from having like

three words for feelings like I'm angry,

I'm bored,

I'm happy, you know, you can start

expanding to 12 words and then

eventually to like 70 words and then it,

you know, it gets It's it gets

interesting.

Yeah. And I feel like people have to be

patient.

Mhm.

That's what I found in relationships the

most that

a lot of us are waiting for everything

to change at the next therapy session.

Yeah.

The next 24 hours. Yeah.

The next argument.

Or we just learned that in therapy. It

should be solved now.

Right.

And I'm like, you realize they've been

practicing that habit for like

generations. Generations.

Yeah. And generations. Even more than 29

years. And so I just feel like we've

lost our ability to be patient

because

there's so much choice.

Yeah.

And there's a feeling that well someone

must be able to do all these things.

Yeah.

What do we do when we think that way?

I'm a big advocate for, you know,

slowness. I mean, psychoanalysis is a

slow process. We spend like several

times a week and over years like slowly

attending to things. I think when people

are

offered the experience of going through

things slowly, they suddenly remember,

oh, this is actually good for me. I

mean, rather than scrolling through like

a million quick videos or or snippets of

things or like just the headlines of

news to sink into something is actually

gratifying. M

right. It's it it feels good. You just

you just have to be

guided. You have to offer people a frame

like the analytic frame. Like people sit

in my office, a couple sits for an hour

without looking at their phones and

we're slowly working through things and

then it feels good and things really

happen. So it's just having the

experience.

Yeah. Let's I want to focus on a

different life cycle part of

relationships. When people are starting

to date,

are there things that they can look for

that show the sign of someone being a

strong partner for them or a weak

partner?

You know that so much happens early on

when we just meet people that is

unconscious.

So much is unconscious. Like years

later, you'll you'll be able to analyze

why you really like this person or what

went wrong. So, it's hard to make people

really fully aware of what's moving

them. I would say

listen to your gut. Your gut is telling

you important things and it might be

telling you important things about

yourself, about your own history. It

might be telling you to keep repeating

the same mistakes or it might be telling

you something really worth listening to

about the other person that is good.

Don't be afraid. So, listen to your gut.

I would also say listen to what the

other person is telling you.

People often disclose a lot about

themselves right at the beginning and we

often don't listen. I know that from

when patients come into my practice and

I'm having first sessions with people

often people tell me everything right at

the beginning even even in the way they

they're like late to a session and the

way they explain it they might be

telling me a lot about their whole life

history just just in the very beginning.

So listen, don't ignore information

that's right in front of you. Like um

Hillary was actually telling me that a

friend of hers um

dated someone who

I think on their first date told her, "I

have a suitcase of unpaid bills under my

bed."

And she thought it's funny

and ignored that. Of course, only later

later later to find out. I mean, this

person was like a mess.

Yeah, it sounded funny on the fact

it sounded funny, but they're telling

you real information. So, listen. Listen

to what people are telling you.

Listen is generally a good a good piece

of advice.

Yeah. If someone tells you that they

have a bad relationship with their

parents,

are there certain things to expect or is

that too general? First of all, that's

an interesting piece of information.

Talking about listening, I would

immediately get curious like what what

is the person telling me? Is the person

telling me something about

early trauma?

And um I'd want to know what happened

and how did this person what does it

mean to not have a good relationship

with a parent after trauma? So, I'd want

to know what happened um and is the

person you're getting to know

are they let's did something bad happen

to them with their family of origin and

they have developed a certain kind of

wisdom where they know how to separate

themselves from from earlier traumatic

experiences or not good experiences and

they've kind of formed their own

personhood in a way that you can trust

or is this I mean to the other end of

things is someone in a way stuck in

something that they kind of have not

found a way to work their way out of and

they're going to be forever stuck in a

certain old pattern that they really

need to be doing the work to move out

of. So, you know, I mean, I'm I'm giving

two extremes. Like, one is I've had like

something bad happen to me or this was

not good and I'm

I'm I've just

worked my way out of it and I'm separate

from this family of origin. Or on the

other extreme is, yeah, I hold a grudge

and I'm forever begrudging these parents

and really I'm going to be repeating

that in this relationship too because

this is my life story. grudge.

It's so hard because it seems like

long-term relationships, which is what

we all want,

require three types of healing. Like

that person needs to heal, you need to

heal, and then you need to heal

together, right?

And you need to make space for them to

heal, they need to make space for you to

heal, you need to make space for

yourself to heal, and they there's so

much healing required.

Yeah. And it requires so much

patience, compassion, empathy, like

almost endless to some degree. Again,

I'm not talking about abusive or, you

know, uh, violent relationships. We're

talking about a relationship that's

not abusive or violent. There's there's

like endless amounts because,

you know, it's like things were great

and then you had a child and then the

childhood challenges and then you went

through that together. And I've had so

many friends this year go through a

miscarriage and like M

that created new things in their

relationship that they didn't have

before because they both dealt with

grief differently.

Yeah.

Samsara

life is difficult. I mean life's amazing

but life is full of

I mean you know Americans think that

life is about pleasure and happiness. I

mean life is a challenge. I mean there I

mean death is embedded in life. I mean

we're life is full of difficulties.

There's always loss. There's always a

challenge. There it's it's the stuff of

life. And I welcome that.

That's what life is about. How do you

know your relationship is strong enough?

How do you prepare? Not that you can

ever prepare for anything like that. But

how do you know you're in a strong,

healthy relationship? Because I think up

until now, the only marker we've had,

which I don't agree with, is we never

argue. So a lot of people will be like,

"Oh, I have a great relationship." We

never argue, right? Which is

that sounds scary.

I agree. But I feel like that's been our

only metric.

Yeah.

Of how we perceive. If we say someone

has a great marriage, like they never

argue. Have you seen them? Like it's

great, right? Like it's not We don't

have more than that. We don't have a

bigger

grading exercise to we we do length. So

we say, "Oh, they've been together for

30 years. They must have a great

marriage." So we use length as a marker

of success. We use not arguing or like

they rarely have you know disagreements

or whatever it may be as a marker of

success and we have oh they have a

beautiful family like if they have kids

and it's it feels like we have very

basic markers

to assume that someone has a healthy

relationship how do we make sure we're

in a strong healthy relationship what

does that look like

first of all I would say that what we

said earlier that kind of stance

when you spend time with a couple

when you spend time with a couple you

They have they build a certain there's a

way that there's an atmosphere around

them that you can it's palpable

and if the atmosphere around them is of

a certain kind of mutual respect,

adoration, a certain kind of acceptance

that is that is a good relationship.

That is a good world to live in. They've

created a world in which they there

there is space for them to thrive. So,

it's it's sort of the music of a

relationship. Is it a music of like

mutual

respect, adoration, or is it a a music

of gotcha, this is where you failed,

this is where you messed up. So, that's

one dimension. I would say if a couple

is uh changing

together meaning is there room for each

of them to change at their own speed and

together as a couple of do they go

through changes in evolutions that's a

really good quality of the relationship

that it's it's you know that it doesn't

break under pressure but it changes

under pressure that's that's a very

strong quality I And couples that don't

argue scare me. I don't know what how

they what what happens there. What do

they just not talk or do they not reveal

ways in which they're different or

that's scary.

Um

tell me more on that. I like that.

Like what how do you not never argue?

Like what are you just the same person?

Have you have you become like enshed

with each other and everything about you

that is different you just repress or

dissociate? Are you so afraid of

conflict? Are you where are you each?

Have you vanished?

It just seems unreal. I think the

ability to

face differences and and back to what we

were talking about earlier, find how how

have you faced your differences? How do

you work through your differences is

what's really interesting about a

relationship and that's where its life

is.

But can I ask you what would you say

about the markers of like a good

relationship?

I really appre appreciate your answer. I

think it's um it's it's it's unique.

I've I've not heard those things before

and I appreciate that a lot. I think one

where both people don't expect the other

person to value what they value, but

they allow the other person to have

their values and they have their own.

Mhm.

And both people respect each other's

values, but they don't want the other

person to believe as strongly about

theirs. Yeah.

Because I just think that

that's pretty difficult if you're

honest.

Yeah.

It's easy if you're living at a surface

level and a superficial level to be

like, "Oh, we both value family." And

it's like, "Well,

you don't really like maybe it's second

on your list, but first on your list is

your career. Let's just be honest."

There's nothing wrong with that,

but let's be honest about it.

And hey, for it's not really family.

It's specifically your kids. It's not

the whole family. So, let's really be

let's get really honest about that. And

then we may realize we have different

values. That doesn't break our

relationship because I respect and we

know where we stand. So, I think that's

a sign of a healthy relationship when we

could be really that's what I think

honesty is. I don't think honesty is I

did this. What did you do? That's a part

of honesty. But the real honesty is like

it's like the depth of your what you

believe in.

Yeah. What I really can I really tell

you what I believe in and you're okay

with it.

Yeah. And of course, when that changes,

it can be hard. Yeah.

And I think that's a sign of a good

relationship is how we deal with new

information and change.

And that doesn't mean you have to stay

together if the information is not what

you want to hear or isn't right for you.

But I think

a strong and healthy relationship is

where you are with most changes and

you're able to flow rather than saying,

"Well, you're not the same person. You

you were I thought you were this,

right?" and they're like, "Yeah, we've

been together for 10 years." And so I

think a healthy relationship is one that

allows for different iterations of each

other.

Yeah.

And what that comes with and rather than

trying to hold on to the person you had

on your wedding day,

right,

you're open to the idea that they're

actually going to be different every day

and every decade.

Yeah.

I would say I hope the relationship is

one where you don't depend on the other

person for everything.

Yeah. when you have other people in your

life, you have friends, you have family,

you have parents, you have other people

you can turn to

as well as turning to your partner.

Yeah.

But it isn't an overdependence on them

or it isn't the opposite which is an

overreiance on everyone else and no

dependence on them.

Right?

When it comes to my relationship, I talk

to my partner.

When it comes to other stuff, I have

other people to talk about it with.

Right? like that balance of if we're

talking about issues in the

relationship, I don't need to talk to

someone else. I need to talk to my

partner about it. They're the person I

need to go to.

But if I have issues with

something that came up today and

actually I love venting with my mom or

my brother or whatever, then then that's

who I'm going to turn to.

Yeah.

So, that's what comes to mind at least.

And can I go back and ask you I'm just

curious what you think about like what

for you is like a a sign of a bad

relationship.

I want to ask you too.

I have a really interesting

perspective on love and relationships

and it comes from my mom. Like I believe

my mom made me believe that I was

lovable and that I feel that in my core

and so giving love for me feels very

easy because I feel like I was showered

in it since I was a kid. And when I say

love, I mean love. I don't mean things.

I don't mean stuff. I don't mean

I I mean just I think my mom loves me.

And I've always felt that my mom's love

was a shield to early trauma that I did

experience but didn't penetrate the

shield. And so I feel very lucky. So I

feel like I could love the whole world

and never run out.

Um and it's uh and it comes from my mom.

My mom gets the credit for that.

Wow.

And what you were saying when you were

like does the mom have that look in her

eyes? Yeah. I was like my mom has that.

I could totally resonate. I was like,

"Yeah, that's my mom."

So

that's why you can

Yeah. So I have a unlimited I feel an

unlimited and of course I feel very

connected to God. I feel connected to

source. I So I feel a very unlimited

sense of love.

Yeah.

It shows up in different ways. Sometimes

setting love is setting boundaries and

not overgiving or compassion fatigue and

you know all those things have to be

taken into account. But I think when you

ask me what's a sign of a a unhealthy

relationship or or a bad relationship,

I think it's when I feel that we're both

only looking at the other person's

mistakes.

We're not looking at our own.

Mhm.

And we're looking for all accountability

to be taken by the other person.

Yeah.

And not ours.

and we're not willing to at certain

times

be potentially the savior of the

relationship

when we're thinking, well, they should

be doing it, too.

And I think a healthy relationship is

recognizing some days you're going to

carry me

and sometimes I'm going to carry you.

Yeah.

And yes, it may have looked like I

carried you for the last two years,

but you may carry me for the next two.

Yeah. And I don't want to live in a

world where we're counting every day

whether everything is 5050. Yeah.

Because I don't think it works that way.

Like my wife was there were, you know,

when we first got married and we moved

to New York and she was away from her

family and she never once complained to

me. She missed her family a lot and she

told me she missed them. And

where is her family?

In London.

Yeah.

And she missed her family a lot. But she

didn't complain to me. She didn't nag

me. She didn't tell me like it was all

my fault that she was away from her

family. And so I know she tolerated a

lot. And at the same time, all I wanted

was for her to be with her family cuz I

knew how much that meant to her.

And I would say that in those early

years, she was so patient and so

tolerant with the fact that we'd moved

here for my work and my mission and and

my purpose and I was living my dream.

But a part of my dream is also seeing

her happy. So my dream wasn't complete

either,

right? But I think the point is she

carried me those years because she

didn't feel like a weight. She could

have, but she chose not to, even though

she was honest about how she felt, but

it wasn't like it was my fault. It

didn't feel projected onto me.

Yeah.

And then she's been through such an

evolution in the last couple of years

where her role in our life has changed,

her career's taken off, her purpose has

blossomed, so much has happened. And I

feel I've been there for her or she's

been finding herself and discovering

herself and I've been open to that. And

I'm like,

but if she was like looking at it in the

early days and like I moved for you, I

did all this for you. What are you doing

for me? You're just living your dream.

Yeah.

If she said that to me, I don't know if

we would have survived,

right?

And then now when she needed a partner

to give her space to blossom and grow,

if she would have left me before for all

those reasons or whatever, then she may

not have found a person who is willing

to. And I wasn't doing it because she

did it for me. I was doing it because I

love her.

Yeah.

And I think that's what it is. You're

motivated from a place of it's not like

I'm counting. I'm just doing this

because I love you. I'm not I'm not

doing this because

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Yeah. Does that make sense? I don't

know. Sorry, I took a windy road to

explain.

No, no, no. It's It also ties to a few

of the things we've been talking about.

It sort of it even ties to like the

question of like if someone says I'm

estranged from my family of origin like

again is it like a stance of like they

didn't do enough for me grudge grudge

grudge or is it a stance of I'm taking

responsibility for myself.

Yeah. And and I think it all comes down

to the the old wisdom of just what can I

do? What can I control? What can I what

can I focus on? It's not about what I

can't control and

what I don't think about

or the blame game.

Or the blame game. I was going to ask

you about some of more of those things

actually. Like what are your thoughts on

how often do you hear the word

gaslighting in the office? Is it common?

Yeah, there there are a bunch of words

that I hear a lot now in the office that

I think come from Tik Tok.

Yeah. Yeah.

gaslighting,

um,

triggers, trauma, um,

love bombing.

Love bombing. Yeah. Recently there was a

lot of love bombing. I'm like,

what are your reactions to this word?

So, when I say the word lovebombing,

yeah.

What are your initial What are your

instant thoughts?

My instant thoughts are first of all,

I'm old

cuz I I came in with a different

vocabulary. Um,

and I typically ask people to

or there's another one activated. I'm

activated. That's people are using that

a lot.

Triggered and activated.

Um,

I typically ask people to

I like play dumb and I say, "Tell me

what you mean. I don't know what you

mean." Because the usually the the way

people use these words is

they have a feeling about something but

they don't exactly know what that

something is. So they grab a word I

guess from Tik Tok that kind of

supposedly captures it and then they're

done thinking.

They stop investigating themselves or

they stop really they're just like,

"Aha, I found the culprit. Gaslighting.

That's what's happening to me. I don't

have to think about it anymore. Someone

is bad." You know, it's usually

I love that. I agree with you.

Yeah. It's usually a lot more

complicated than I found the word and

someone is bad.

Yeah. It's almost a relief we feel when

we find the word.

Yeah.

But actually,

he's a narcissist. He's a narcissist.

He's gaslighting me.

So, I feel like the world has everyone

feels like they've dated a narcissist.

Mhm.

How accurate are they?

100% accurate because we all have parts

of ourselves that are narcissistically

oriented, meaning they are to protect

our sense of self.

Some people move more to the extreme and

they're really like deeply wounded and

and have to spend a lot of energy

protecting themselves and working around

their ego. But most of us in certain

situations were provoked to behave in

more narcissistic ways. And when we're

offered other conditions, we can be more

open and interested in the world. Mhm.

So, it's usually the way it's used in

pop language, it's usually just like a

word that covers up a whole other world

of things. I think when people talk

about, "I've dated a narcissist,"

they're like, "That person didn't give

me enough attention."

And what's that about that? There there

could be so much there like what what

went on between the two of you? Why?

What happened? Where were you in that?

It's It doesn't tell you much.

Yeah. I'm so happy to hear that because

I do think that

the word is a relief. It's not that it's

wrong. It's just that don't stop

unpacking it there.

Yeah.

So those words are really helpful for

you to

categorize, summarize your experience,

but don't feel that that's the end of

the investigation.

Like there's so much more.

Exactly.

And you're actually doing yourself a

disservice.

Yeah. And the moment you're thinking

about I found a word that finds all the

problem outside of me, you're deluding

yourself.

When you find couples come in with

financial issues.

Mhm.

Is it really about money?

Money is a big issue for people. Money

is a big issue for people. You know, the

question of money, one of the questions

that people that couples deal with when

they're fighting or debating about money

is the deep question of

mine versus ours. What's mine and what

are we sharing?

And the most concrete version of it is

money. But it's everything. It's time.

It's attention. It's air time. It's sex.

It's so much is like mine versus ours.

But money is like especially in our

culture, money is like the most concrete

way to talk about it and to fight about

it. Like if you're making more money

than your spouse or than your partner,

who pays for dinner? Like what what's

what's the vibe between the two of you?

Is it shared money or is it No, we're

still going Dutch, right? Fights about

money are are are about the concreteness

of money, but they're also about where

do I begin and end and what's us

together. And then there's a whole other

thing with money, which is money is also

something to do with our relationship

with reality,

right? you you I mean back to the idea

of someone hiding a suitcase with bills,

unpaid bills under the bed. Like how

realistic is your relationship with

reality, with what you have, with what

you're making? Like when people talk

about money, they're talking about

reality in certain ways.

What I I usually ask people, how do you

think money should play out between the

two of you? If you're making more money

than your partner,

what is your ideology on this? What do

you really think should happen? Does

that give you more power?

Does that mean you should be making more

of the decisions?

Does that mean your partner should be

paying for less? How do you think about

it? Each of you just what's your basic

ideology? Which is hard for people to

acknowledge, right? They they want to

feel like no, money doesn't matter, but

it matters to everyone in some way or

another. They have an ideology. So, are

they willing to put it on the table to

be honest with how they think about it?

And then once you compare these

ideologies, then we can have a

discussion, it's back to the idea of

like the the couple creating

the their political

backdrop like what is the politics of

this relationship? Are you like

socialist or are you capitalist? Are you

what's your economic system?

Disagree. What if we vote differently?

You probably will disagree on some

level. You will somewhere you will

disagree and then it's going to get

interesting. It's going to be like

a congress like right debating what's

the right way to do it.

But it's better to have that debate on

the table rather than acted out in those

like what was that film? There was that.

Oh my god. It's a film in which um the

there's a shipwreck. There's this couple

that are sitting at the dinner table and

they're looking at each other like who's

going to pull out the credit card?

Oh, I don't know.

Brilliant scene.

Everything about their relationship was

in that scene.

I don't know.

With her kind of pretending she lost her

card.

Oh, okay.

And him reluctantly pulling out his

credit card. And then there was it was

just like perfect.

I was thinking of a movie called Fair

Play.

I didn't see that.

Did you see that?

I heard about it. I didn't see it.

I would think you'd I I don't know if

you'd enjoy it. I don't know your taste

in movies, but I think it's really

interesting. It's a story about where

it's a movie made about a couple who are

competing for the same job because they

work at the same company.

Oh.

But it's really dark. And it really goes

into that

the psychology of competition, gender

roles, the pay gap.

everything

and it shows how it

tow

it just it just shows you what's going

on inside of our heads that doesn't

often come out

and and and just how we all feel and

it's so interesting how society and all

of this has such a play on how we feel

about

our role and who we are today we have so

many more people to look that and view

and see how their lives are going. I had

I had a friend who his girlfriend made

more money than him.

Mhm.

And he did really well for himself, but

she made more money than him. So she but

she expected him to pay for everything

and she wanted him not only to pay for

dinners and rent and she wanted him to

buy her a car. She because she believed

that that's because he's a man.

Because he's the man.

That's how she should be treated. And

that was, you know, that was for her.

Imagine them having a conversation.

They ended up breaking up.

But what would their conversation sound

like?

Literally this.

I deserve this. I'm a queen.

I'm a princess. I'm like, this is how I

should be treated like this.

Do you think she would she said

something like this?

She said stuff like this. Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. That's amazing.

Yeah.

That's amazing. And you see a lot of

this language on Tik Tok and things like

that about what a high value man is,

what a high value woman is. And a lot of

the language and vocabulary out there

today,

what's what is it what is meant by a

high value man?

I mean there's lots of different

definitions, but generally it's someone

who does has a good career, makes a lot

of money, does well for themselves, and

you know that the obvious definition of

it.

Well, it's not obvious.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, but the

to me it's not obvious.

Yeah. But it's just interesting to hear

how these societal ideas kind of because

then we're like, "Oh, but you're not

with a high value man, you know, and and

it's really interesting because in my

world, a high value man would be someone

who has good values like right

being like ethics."

Ethics. Yeah. Exactly. Like character,

moral character, strength and courage

and bravery and you know, honesty and

you know, that's what I would consider a

high value person forget a high value

man. Yeah.

Um, and it's interesting how all this

language at play kind of cascades ideas

quickly, like you said,

because it's easier rather than saying

I'm with a good man, it's easier if I'm

with a high value man. But, you know,

what does that mean,

right?

Um, yeah, I was going to ask you,

do more people want more intimacy or

more sex?

I think it dep first of all, it's it's a

complicated thing to draw the line

between intimacy and sex.

Oh, interesting. Okay.

And I think it depends very much on the

stage of the relationship

early on. One of the things I mean we

all know that one of the things that

binds people one of the strongest glues

is sex like passion and excitement about

each other and like you know wanting to

get into bed together. And then

at some point people start coming to

terms with like differences differences

in scripts, differences in appetite.

I know that the the

like the stereotype is that men are more

focused on sex and want more sex and

women want less or it's less important

to them. I don't think that's actually

true. I think again it's very hard to

make generalizations and it changes

between like straight and queer couples.

So it's it's really not necessarily

about the biology but um

but I think typically

there there are different focuses for

men and women and then later in the

relationship things change because I

think later in the relationship the the

the

line between sex and intimacy gets very

blurry. Mhm.

And I think generally everyone wants

both intimacy and sex. Everyone wants it

and everyone wishes it for themselves

and and wants it in large quantities.

Everyone needs it, but they focus on

different things

and no one has energy for it

and no one has energy for it. And

anyway, a lot of it is about wanting to

feel desire of some sort.

That's what it is.

That's really what it is. and not

necessarily wanting, you know, oh, I

need to have it three times a week or I

need this or I need that. It's it's it's

a lot about the experience of desire and

being desired. That is really kind of

the the thing we all want. The the to be

living in desire rather than living in a

certain kind of deadness. That's

ultimately what everyone wants.

That's so powerful because it goes back

to what we were talking about earlier of

like we just want someone to believe in

us.

Yeah. It's like we just want that

feeling of like I have value. I have

something to give. I'm wanted. I'm

desired. I'm needed.

And people want to feel desire, to feel

desired, and also to feel desire for the

other.

And it's so interesting because it feels

like our partners are the people that

make us feel the least of everything

because it's like

our partner makes us feel the least

desired. Our partner makes us feel the

less least important. We almost have

this worry that if I say too many nice

things to my partner,

they'll get a big head.

Or if I'm too nice to them, they'll

think that they're better than me. Like

I feel like there's a subconscious, this

isn't something someone would say, but

there's this subconscious belief

of that I shouldn't honor my partner too

much because it almost puts me in a weak

place.

Like a zero sum kind of.

Yeah. Like almost like a feeling of like

weakness. like if I compliment them too

much,

I'm weaker in this relationship because

I'm the one who needs them more.

It's a fear of vulnerability

of showing that you depend, showing that

you need,

showing that you desire. It puts you in

a vulnerable place.

Correct.

Yeah. But it's I mean I think

but that's what everything is.

But yeah, people thrive in feeling

wanted and appreciated. Anything that

makes people more stingy, I think is

problematic.

I think stinginess, withholding is like

destructive.

Give more. Give, give, give, give

freely.

Create a good environment around you.

Or thank you for your time and energy

today. You've been so gracious and I've

genuinely loved talking to you. I felt

like I had I felt like I had so many new

thoughts and ideas today just being in

your presence and now I'm like now I

know what it feels like to be in the

room with you and I'm like

honestly I mean that like I I just felt

like everything was firing in my mind

and I was connecting dots that I haven't

before. So thank you. It was such a joy.

Me too, Jay. It was wonderful questions

and I love all the both the vignettes

that you bring in that are immediately

like, oh my god, the whole world is in

this vignette and the questions you're

asking. They're right at the core.

Thank you. You're so kind. Or we end

every on purpose interview with the

final five. These questions have to be

answered in one word to one sentence

maximum.

Okay.

So, these are your final five. Okay. The

first question is, what is the best

relationship advice you've ever heard or

received?

Stay in your own lane.

The best relationship. Why? How is that?

How does that tell me?

It means don't intrude on someone else's

journey. Like stay in your own lane. Do

the thing you're supposed to do and live

and let live.

Yeah.

That's that's the best way to create a

good environment for a relationship.

Second question. What is the worst

relationship advice you've ever heard or

received? Don't let him get away with

it.

Why is that bad advice?

Cuz that's paranoid. It's like a like be

suspicious, be paranoid,

don't give the benefit of the doubt,

guard your own. It's not a good attitude

because

because the way you the way you approach

the way you look at a person, speaking

of what we've that's what you're going

to get back.

If you're paranoid about someone,

they're going to be bad. Yeah. And it

steals your energy.

And it steals your energy. Right.

Question number three. What's something

you used to believe was true about

couples,

but now you have a different view on it?

Maybe. I used to believe that

compatibility is the most important

thing. And now I think

like I said earlier that the capacity to

love someone who's different from you

is the best source of growth.

So well said. I love it. I'm like I'm

sold on that idea. That's everything.

Great.

We've been spending too much time trying

to find this like perfect match, perfect

fit who's like it's just like

there isn't. I think about that with my

wife all the time. is so different.

We couldn't be more different.

Yeah.

Like in every way.

In so many ways. And

I'm I love being alone. She loves being

surrounded by family. Like

Yeah.

I'm I'm super driven, focused,

ambitious. She's fun, playful, doesn't

take life seriously.

That's great, though.

Like, it's just But it's so different.

I'm I'm always on time. I like order. I

like structure. I like system. She

believes in

fairness. Yeah. Spontaneity and

complete, you know.

Yeah. And so that initially did create

so many rifts and challenges. Like it it

was hard because it was like I was ready

to go on time. She's not.

Yeah.

To me that's a big issue. It's a big

issue.

I want systems in order. I want to plan