The Coming Real Estate Demo Crisis | Jason Hartman

what we really need to think about if

we're a real estate investor is what

happened 25 to 30 years ago that means

if you owe a million dollars in Mortgage

Debt inflation basically paid 270 grand

for you I mean that's free money if you

don't pay the debt yourself wow you got

a free ride on that maybe some positive

cash flow a ton of tax benefits cuz

income property is the most tax favored

asset class in America you know Kevin it

reminds me of um all the corporate

Raiders that became sort of famous in

the ' 8S what was the big strategy they

Ed the lbo The Leverage buyout I think

inflation is going to be a theme for

quite a while of course there are cycles

and everything there will be bouts of

disinflation or even deflation on the

way if you're a real estate investor

demographically speaking you're in good

shape till about 2045

20148 the media loves to talk about

California New York right these up and

down places because there's just a lot

more to report on if it beds it leads

that's the saying in the in the

newspaper world right well-known

economists and well-known think tanks

have just gotten us totally wrong

welcome back to another episode of the

meat Kevin show we are here with Jason

harpman you have some big things to say

about a crash coming in real estate but

a specific part of real estate and it's

even Beyond just office so I want to

talk to you about this because this is

really interesting especially with what

we're looking at and then you've also

got some interesting insights in

Commodities yeah so let's get started uh

what's going to happen are we going into

a recession do does should everybody

just sell everything and sit on the

sidelines where's your head on that and

let's talk about these two insights yeah

so quite a quite a few things wrapped up

in that question Kevin and um you know I

think the thing we have to consider is

the when we look at just housing

specifically um most will agree we have

a housing shortage and uh you really

have to divide up the country or the

world really into three types of markets

linear cyclical and hybrid markets

cyclical markets would be my home state

of California don't live there anymore I

know that's where you are still and uh

uh that would be mostly a cyclical

Market where yeah boom and bus Cycles uh

looking at a a chart over time it looks

like a roller coaster glorious highs

ugly lows uh but I prefer those sort of

linear boring markets the the center of

the country the uh the southeast right

you know those kind of markets where

there are ups and downs but they're not

as pronounced this would be like the

Ohio or Carolinas maybe as an example

yeah the Carolinas but even even Florida

Georgia a little bit too not as much as

it used to be because everything is

bubbled up as we know and uh and with

those markets they're more sustainable

because you have better cash flow and

you know you can always tell a linear

Market versus a cyclical Market by the

land value

and so about 20 years ago I started

teaching a concept I call packaged

Commodities investing and most people

when they buy a property they think it's

one thing but it's really two major

things there's the land component and

then the Improvement sitting on the land

the house the apartment building the

office building the retail Center

whatever which is made of Commodities

and those packaged or assembled

Commodities right what are they made out

of right well they're made out of copper

wire drywall glass steel lumber concrete

petroleum products all of that good

stuff and those are relatively stable

what fluctuates the most is land value

because land when there's cheap easy

money in a market land values just get

bit up through the roof and it doesn't

need to be vacant land just High land

value markets like California example

right during an easy money cycle yeah

okay right right so those get bit up a

lot and they're very volatile and I use

the example of the last house I lived in

in California I bought it for $815,000

back in like 2004 um at the peak it was

worth a million3 and it it went up

almost $500,000 in less than a year oh

my gosh and I mean that's Insanity right

oh that was 05 to 04 to 05 uh a little

later than that yeah a little later than

that but that's obviously not

sustainable right and so when you think

about it which component went up was it

the land or the Improvement well the

Improvement the house sitting on the

land actually did get a little bit more

expensive because all those construction

materials went up in price but not five

or 500k worth not that much so it's

mostly in the land and then when it came

back down which it inevitably

unfortunately did right came back down

to earth uh which what went down the

land value went down because it still

cost almost as much to build the house

as it did at the peak right and so when

you look at things like that and you

think of you know I know George has been

on your channel and he he likes Jim

Rogers a lot I'm a big Jim Rogers fan

too he's been on my show a few times and

uh he's really interested in Commodities

and I think Commodities are one of the

few things in the world that really have

intrinsic value whereas paper currencies

don't have intrinsic value and so

everybody needs these Commodities

because they create one of the three

major things we all need food clothing

shelter right so they're the ingredients

for shelter and so when you invest like

that and you invest mostly in the

Commodities and less in the

land that's a a really conservative

prudent type of real estate investing

that would be the more linear approach

like absolutely the linear markets and

where are your favorite markets for that

yeah so you know Tennessee uh Florida

Georgia Texas a little bit but Texas has

gotten a little bit expensive but we've

helped hundreds we really thousands of

people over the years buying Texas

uh but um uh you know Arkansas is quite

good too uh you know there there's a lot

of these like linear markets Missouri uh

Kansas you know these types of markets

that just don't get a lot of attention

from the media because they're kind of

boring right in Indiana is another great

one and um nothing much happens there so

the media doesn't report on them because

they're not Sensational the media loves

to talk about California New York right

these up and down places because there's

just a lot more to report on drama yeah

drama yeah AB political drama or

whatever it is if it bleeds it leads

that's the saying in the in the

newspaper how interesting so this is why

you know Kansas or Arkansas or whatever

might not be on the news every day but

it's it's San Francisco it's New York

City or Miami interesting okay so uh so

what does that mean uh in ter so that's

a good Baseline where do we sit in the

market now though so we've got 7% on the

30-year mortgage what's at risk here is

it the single family the multif family I

mean we know office is in the Poopers

but right yeah office is definitely in

the pooper that's a good way to say it

yeah so you know multif family is pretty

overs supplied right now oh wow but

that'll recover you know it's just going

to take two to three years to work is

that a buy the dip opportunity or is it

a careful weight like it's falling knife

I don't think it's quite there yet I

think it's still a falling knife

obviously look you know I just want to

make the kind of General disclaimer that

lots of people you can make money lots

of ways and lots of things every deals

individual there is no real estate

market okay there's there are individual

deals right but generally speaking I

think multi family is it's got a little

more pain ahead uh because there's a lot

of new Supply coming on this year and uh

there are quite a few syndicators that

got themselves into trouble syndicating

multif family and they're going to be

they're already selling but I think

there's going to be more of that oh even

as rates come down they're just going to

flood them out yeah they have to yeah

okay yeah they're under a lot of of debt

pressure because they didn't plan for

these higher rates and and they had a

lot of short-term debt which has come

home to risk like three four fiveyear

kind of debt yeah even shorter really

you know I mean I mean a typical

strategy in multif family and I've done

it myself because I've owned you know a

few big apartment complexes too and um

you know you you you buy you rehab and

you ret tenant the property so as the

units go vacant one at a time you rehab

them and then you raise the rents by

hopefully 30% and uh that's a great

strategy it great

asmb that is

no then you're inou right you need to

rely on somebody else to be able to get

that cheap short-term debt and yeah yeah

ultimately you know after you get past

either the hard money loan or The Fix

and Flip loan the short-term financing

the bridge financing then you need to go

into longer term permanent financing and

when that cost of money triples you're

screwed oh okay that's like a big

problem and so you think there are a lot

of screwed Sal owners quite a few oh wow

and there are you know there are uh

smart investors uh that are uh creating

rescue funds right rescue Capital they

call it and they're coming into that

market now a little bit but I think the

bigger opportunity is still ahead

because I think we're going to see more

pain there wow wow okay so the

opportunity for somebody watching where

is it is it is it you know the usual

like buyer house or like wait and try to

buy a fourplex or what do you see you

know I just my my favorite is just the

humble single family home okay it's you

know it's not that sexy but those are

really the best investments that aren't

that sexy right and so just good old

single family homes in linear markets

you know uh and when I first started

helping investors buy Nationwide 20

years ago I mean you know these houses

were 80

$120,000 now you know we're talking

$350,000 okay for that type of house but

that good uh starter home that

entry-level home that has been massively

underbuilt for the last 15 years coming

out of the Great Recession uh there's a

giant Gap in the market a big hole where

we have a lot of demand for those

properties and very few of them

available so that's another thing that

we we need to say you know you can

segment the real estate market a lot of

different ways right we talked about

linear cyclical and hybrid we can talk

about different asset classes Apartments

office you know retail industrial all of

this stuff right but also just within

residential single family price ranges

right uh Market areas right there you

know condo single family fourplexes two

duplexes whatever right so there's a lot

of different ways to segment things and

uh the entrylevel single family homes

entry level that's where you want to be

the bread and butter single family homes

that make good rental properties ah okay

so something that that'll be easy for

you to rent out in the future now is

there there a potential uh uh crash

coming then that cyclical crash coming

to single family this site like are we

in that cycle now in in the broader

single family Market um I don't think so

in any major way but I'm not saying that

with a ton of confidence okay I just

want to hear that in the entrylevel

single family Market I'm very confident

that we are not looking at a crash yet I

mean barring some Black Swan event World

War III breaking out another planemic

whatever right yeah L inserted on

purpose right right right yeah hope hope

the algorithm didn't catch that that's

all right so uh you know that barring

one of those Black Swan type events I I

think you know just the Dynamics of we

only have a half a million homes for

sale in the country we have about a 140

million housing units in the country

okay and Kevin where so many people have

gotten this wrong so many experts you

know have gotten this wrong big uh

well-known economists and well-known

think tanks have just gotten this

totally wrong since we saw this massive

rate hike only about five million

properties have single family homes have

transacted oh between the beginning of

rate hikes and now yeah in the last year

and a half which is well below the

normal level absolutely so at the peak

of the market we have about 6 million

properties a year

right and so last year we had like 3.8

million sales are way down Realtors are

starving they're complaining all the

settlement people the mortgage people

they're all complaining title yeah but

there's a difference between sales

volume and sales prices and the reason

is simple basic fundamental law of

Economics supply and demand okay and

Supply is very constricted because we

have this lock in effect of so many

people with really low mortgage rates

the 30e fixed rate yeah 20 25% of the

country has a rate at or below 3% and

they have 27 to 28 years left yeah

they're not giving that up that's an

asset right yeah okay uh 65% of the

country has a rate at or below 4% for 27

or 28 years left right that's an asset

and if they were to move literally

renting an apartment would be more

expensive moving to a cheaper house

would be more expensive so it's like

this perver

weird situation that has never happened

in my multi-decade career I've never

seen this before it's an unusual

scenario so there's this talk about oh

you know and the rates will start coming

down maybe prices will start going up

again in the spring is there a risk that

uh as rates come down inventory comes up

more than buyers come in that is a

fantastic question and the answer is yes

inventory will increase as rates go down

oddly because the Delta between current

rates that people hold those cheap rates

and the new rate gets smaller and then

Trad happens right there's less

punishment hey if I've got to you know

if I've got to pay

7% and I've got 3% already I'm not

trading I'm not going to sell right I'm

going to keep my 3% even if I don't like

the house right but if I can get 5% and

I've got 3% that Gap is not as big so

then I'll trade but so that will create

more inventory but that'll also create

more affordability so Millions more

people will be able to afford to buy and

that will light the market on fire again

so in a low inventory Market increasing

affordability we know all know what

happens cuz we had that dur the co era

right now the question is how much of

each do we get I guess Anything Could

Happen happens you know it doesn't

happen in a day right it happens over a

Continuum and so as rates come down a

few people peel off a little more

inventory comes on the market but a few

more buyers can qualify now so that all

works right it's it's not a recipe for

disaster so so no bake housing lead 2008

again uhuh 2.0 ahead of us totally

different circumstances and I hate to

say you know we all know the famous last

words of every investor This Time It's

Different right that's that's not good

thinking but it really is very different

okay I mean in in leading up you know I

predicted the housing crash in terms of

the mortgage meltdown component when I

was doing seminars and speaking

engagements in 2002

2003 I knew because it was really simple

to see that all the people that got

these 31 arms or 51 arms they would have

adjustments and they would have payment

shock and they did and that happened so

I sold my real estate company I had a

traditional real estate company in

Southern California Coldwell Banker

bought it from me it closed November

11th of 2005 oh my go and everybody said

my timing was perfect yeah because

prices started going down right after

that slowly absolutely right it didn't

really go cookie into like 0708 but at

the end of ' 05 that was the peak right

and you know people didn't notice that

Kevin at the end of 05 it was the peak

and the reason they didn't notice it was

the holidays and traditional you know

owner occupied transactions don't happen

that much then but by the time we got to

Spring of 2006 people started to notice

like where's the activity right it

should be really busy right now and it

wasn't and so that was the change um but

where was I going with that um anyway

refresh that's okay yeah so so I I guess

the oh different circumstances and

mortgage meltdown that's where I was so

so basically I knew and other people

knew too that there would be payment

shock and that happened so the mortgage

meltdown was kind of easy to predict

because the lending was so loose you you

knew what was going on there too okay

that was obvious but what I didn't know

is the theme of the movie Margin Call in

the big short ah all calization I did

not know what Wall Street was doing all

the all the scam and Corruption going

oning the garbage right okay so that

there were really two phases to the

Great Recession there was the mortgage

meltdown phase which was just loose

lending and adjust rate loans adjusting

payment shock right but then there was

the crookery and Corruption and graft on

Wall Street which was selling the same

Loan in the same pool 33 times and the

loan literally didn't exist there was uh

you know just massive uh underwriting

fraud I mean you know look at Moody's we

all know the story right because we saw

the movies or read the book yeah it's

it's remarkable okay so so that's not

what we're looking ahead towards um are

you cons concerned at all about

inflation or the fed or recession in

coming like what how are you positioning

and how do you see other people yeah I I

think inflation is going to be a theme

for quite a while of course there are

cycles and everything there will be

bouts of disinflation or even deflation

on the way but look we have got $34

trillion in debt we've got you know

somewhere between 60 trillion and $220

trillion of unfunded entitlements or

promises the government has made in the

next 10 15 years that it can't afford to

keep so for reference the federal

government takes in about $4.7 trillion

a year so how is it ever going to pay

back 34 trillion and then keep the

promises to pay 60 to 220 trillion it's

impossible you can't raise taxes enough

to solve that problem and if you raise

the taxes that much the economic

activity will just dissipate destroy the

economy so you really have to hope that

somehow the economy expands faster and

the debt becomes less relevant over time

I suppose okay interesting how is that

affecting your investing or are you just

focusing on single families I I think it

means inflation so you know I think

single family homes are the best thing

because uh one of the things the hidden

wealth creators is the mortgage asset

even if it's not one of those super

cheap mortgages we already talked about

principal pay down every month but you

get to pay the debt back in cheaper

dollars over time the debt is inflated

away yeah and so that's really the

business plan our government has for its

debt yeah why not do the same thing if

we ow if we owe a trillion dollars to

China and we have 10% inflation either

in one year two years three years

doesn't matter the time right but we

have 10% inflation we just got a100

billion discount on the debt right so we

want as much inflation as possible so so

really you're saying jome Powell is inen

incentivized to to run that money

printer I I think the whole system is

incentivized to just just inflate away

debt and inflate away problems and kick

the can down the road and eventually The

Jig will be up you can't do this forever

but we can do it for probably quite a

lot longer than we think how long I

don't know 100 years nobody knows 10

years maybe longer than we can live I

don't know not 10 years I don't know

okay yeah okay so what does this mean

for

demographics uh well demap yeah so the

wealth so uh you know the Calon effect

which I'm sure you're familiar with

right this economist from what 150 years

ago talked about how the people closest

to the money printer get the richest

right because they get the advantage

before the value is inflated away right

and the rest of us little people you

know we get the advantage much later and

we don't get their advantage so the

wealth Gap is increasing wealth is

definitely concentrating we've certainly

seen that over the past 20 years um I

mean one of the things I say on my show

always is you must watch old TV shows

watch old movies read old books listen

to old music because then then you get a

reference point and when I say old I

just mean like the ' 80s or the 70s not

even that old right and and you you just

see uh the depiction of like a rich

person in the 70s versus today these are

like Mega Rich oligarchs we have now so

that wealth Gap is definitely increasing

quite a bit and um uh you know I think

that's going to continue to happen

unfortunately I don't think that's good

for Society at all but that's the

direction it's going so on the ride or

you're yeah and the way you can get on

the ride and ride on their coattails and

game the system is by getting cheap

fixed rate long-term debt and letting it

get inflated away most people with real

estate they think hey I made money

because the property appreciated but the

properties don't usually appreciate that

much more than the inflation rate that's

not that significant yeah maybe what 1%

if that it's a bit of an illusion right

but they do appreciate hedge inflation

so if you leverage them then you get a

multiplier effect right so if you've got

10% down and the property appreciates

say at 6% a year then that multiplies to

60% gross return on investment right and

if inflation is 6% you have outrun

inflation by 54% that's a great deal

fantastic deal yeah that's very

interesting then if you're getting tax

benefits yeah because your debt yeah

isn't affected by this because it's not

going up because there's inflation it's

actually staying the same so therefore

like you said it's easier to pay it back

right and and the great thing about

income property is we don't pay our own

debts the tenants do we Outsource the

debt to the tenants yeah it's the

greatest deal ever right so you

basically get in the middle of this

awesome transaction right because

because you you have inflation induced

debt destruction where the inflation is

paying the debt for you give you an

example okay so uh in one of my

presentations uh I show an example of

how over the last 10 years there's been

26.7% cumulative inflation when

inflation was lower before the co era

right just up until 20 just comparing

like to 2019 or so yeah yeah yeah so uh

that means if you owe a million dollars

in Mortgage Debt inflation basically

paid 270 grand for you yeah I mean

that's free money but if you don't pay

the debt

yourself wow you got a free ride on that

maybe some positive of cash flow a ton

of tax benefits because income property

is the most tax favored asset class in

America and it's the most historically

proven asset class in the world I

believe um happy to debate that point if

someone wants to um and then uh you

you've got the leverage I mean you've

got all these multi-dimensional

characteristics amazing it really is an

amazing asset you know Kevin it reminds

me of um all the corporate Raiders that

became sort of famous in the 80s right

and what was the big strategy they use

the lbo The Leverage buyout right and

and The Leverage buyout basically the

strategy is you find a company you want

to acquire and you know private Equity

firms do this all the time it's their

major strategy you find a company you

want to acquire you load that company up

with as much debt as possible and then

you make the company pay the debt back

out of its own cash flow okay and then

you ultimately sell it or you split it

up into parts and sell the parts right

and so

that we're basically doing leverage

buyouts with income property that's just

a great strategy yeah I love that that's

fantastic so what what about the

demographic issue I you've you've

touched on this before I mean there's

immigration the birth rates what what

keeps you up at night well I mean we're

going to have a a population bust uh but

that's a ways away we don't need to

worry about it yet but it's definitely

coming and the the great thing about

studying demographics is it's immutable

you just know it's going to happen right

it's easy to predict with simple math

right if if someone is you know 30 today

you know they're going to be 31 next

year right that's without a doubt that's

not debatable okay and um so so there is

definitely a baby bust I mean all these

factors uh feminism uh you know all of

these other factors have gotten us to a

point where people just aren't having

kids and uh uh that's not what we worry

about today what we worry about today

with real estate is household formation

Ah that's the more important thing so

which we had in Co but some were saying

that might be like faux household

formation almost I because people wanted

to get away from anybody well yeah and

the mass migration that yeah but what

I'm talking about is it's you know some

people worry about what's happening you

know the last several years right what

we really need to think about if we're a

real estate investor is what happened 25

to 30 years ago oh okay and that's

pretty good for a while okay so if

you're a real estate investor

demographically speaking you're in good

shape till about 2045 2048 you've got a

while so don't worry about it yet so in

other words when the Millennials are who

are not having kids yeah start messing

up our future

economy well I don't want to say messing

up but you know if you don't have kids

you don't have an economy and that's one

of the big problems you know I know

George was talking on your show about

Japan okay so Japan has among other

problems right um Japan has a big

demographic problem and you know they

they just don't have children I mean

there's all these weird things in Japan

uh and I love Japan by the way I've been

there twice it's just a super civilized

country everything's clean people are so

polite it's a wonderful place um but

there's like these weird Trends there

there are women that marry

themselves it's kind of like the Dennis

Rodman thing okay right in

and they literally have a wedding with

no husband no groom yeah they hire a

photographer they invite their friends

they have a party and they have a

wedding with no other person so what's

the point it's just weird look it up

it's just a weird

thing I don't have a point but but this

is the problem when you don't have kids

you can't have an economy without

children you know you're doing your part

so congratulations

thank you for doing your part wow okay

so so buy real estate buy single family

homes and go have kids yeah so you know

maybe you'll just tell everybody have

more sex okay there you go perfect there

you go uh I'm sure everyone will like

that message but uh you know there are

other assets obviously there are

precious metals um the problem is you

can't you can't leverage them very well

you can't rent them out I'm going to say

Bitcoin next that's coming so Bitcoin

obviously the ETF was just approved um

you know I I don't have like a ton of

confidence in Bitcoin but I hope I'm

wrong I want to be wrong about this

because I would love nothing more than

to see a decentralized currency of the

people take over the world I would love

that the reason I don't have a lot of

confidence though and I do own some and

I buy it every week a little bit I just

dollar cost average okay but um you know

the two most powerful entities the human

race has ever known are governments and

central

banks and Bitcoin threading both their

their main product is their fiat

currency yeah of course I mean that's

the product of any government is its

currency okay and they're not going to

just stand by and let that be displaced

of course I mean they have standing

armies okay Bitcoin does not have a

standing army and and so I I just think

there's going to be a lot of headwinds

wow that's but I hope Bitcoin wins yeah

yeah okay but I wouldn't put all my eggs

in that basket I'll tell you 10% I don't

5 two one dep how much money you have I

guess it's different you know if you

have billions of dollars you can put a

bigger share in there because it won't

affect your lifestyle if you lose it all

right okay yeah and the other threat the

other big threat I think to bitcoin and

by the way I want to separate Bitcoin

from every other cryptocurrency it's in

a class by itself ah okay even versus

ethereum let's say oh yeah ethereum is a

centralized

that's not Bitcoin because of the

staking pools where so much is in one

okay nothing is Bitcoin okay except

Bitcoin right and cry other

cryptocurrencies you know you can

speculate with them and make money I

have a lot of friends who've made a ton

of money I mean you know with that stuff

but um uh but bitcoin's in a class by

itself that is the leading thing um but

the other big threat to it is coming

around the corner and it's Quantum

Computing oh wow these Ultra Mega

powerful computers that we can't even

comprehend really are right around the

corner and you know they could crack the

blockchain they could crack the code uh

I'm no expert in that but it I think

that is a legitimate to update some of

the cryptography a little bit before

quantum computers take over yeah and

yeah that that would scare me okay okay

interesting but that wouldn't be your

main concern if as an investor is the

cryptography it would be more government

yeah governments and central banks I

know they will government and central

banks with quantum computers well that's

even worse yeah well or with laws and

armies and police for you know I mean I

mean look like like with the with the uh

cryptocurrency and the Bitcoin argument

right they say well they can't stop it

are you sure about that I mean look you

know they they can just make it illegal

and and then you say okay look well you

know cocaine is illegal yeah yeah yeah

but it still exists people still trade

it it's out there it's just not

mainstream okay it's a commodity it's

traded I mean but now wouldn't you say

it's mainstream because of the

ETFs um yes and that is good because now

they have Wall Street on their side or

Bitcoin has Wall Street on its side so

that will make it harder for the

governments and central banks to attack

it because now it's sort of enshrined in

our system so that bodess well for

Bitcoin so okay maybe buy a little more

if you're into it yeah anything else um

yeah I don't know uh just I I really

want to leave people with the idea of of

the mortgage being an asset oh yeah and

uh even if it's I mean ideally the

mortgage you have on all your properties

is at a negative interest rate meaning

the rate of the mortgage is below the

rate of official inflation and below the

rate of real inflation and always

remember too that depending on your tax

bracket you know maybe 40% of that

mortgage interest is deductible

so if your mortgage is uh you know

4% really your real interest rate is

only like

2.2% okay uh so when you compare that to

official inflation rate which is

understated I'm sure you agree with that

uh or unofficial real inflation rate you

know you're definitely at a negative

interest rate right uh so so that's a

huge asset and then the debt is being

inflated away and that happens really in

two

two parts the payment every month gets

less and less burdensome with the

inflation inflating the debt away but

also the principal balance of the

mortgage gets less and less burdensome

because inflation is basically paying it

off for you that's incredible yeah it

really is an incredible thing thank you

so much how can people follow you um my

website is Jason hartman.com and I'm on

YouTube and podcast creating wealth

podcast as well creating wealth podcast

thank you so much thanks Kevin even

though I'm a licensed financial adviser

licensed real estate broker and becoming

a stock broker this video is neither

personalized Financial nor real estate

advice for you it is not tax legal or

otherwise personalized advice tailored

to you this video provides generalized

perspective information and commentary

any third party content I show should

not be deemed endorsed by me this video

is not and shall never be deemed

reasonably sufficient information for

the purposes of evaluating a security or

investment decision any links or

promoted products or either paid

affiliations or products or service we

may benefit from I also personally

operate an actively managed ETF and hold

long positions in various Securities

mentioned including potential short

positions however I have no relationship

to any issuers nor am I presently acting

as a market maker