The Happiness Expert: Single Friends Will Keep You Single & Obesity Is Contagious!

I take the same test year by year and I

am 60% happier than I was 5 years ago

because I finally cracked the code okay

so Arthur BR the world-renowned social

scientist har Professor best-selling

author who teaches people how to live a

better happier life I've studied the

science of happiness and I found that

most of what Society tells us is wrong

and we will go into all of this for

example they found that happiness is

about 50% genetic introverts tend to

have more long-term Happiness and

happiness is a mind virus it will

transmit from one person to another

person to another person really yeah

they were looking at the trajectory of

people's lives measuring everything for

many years and they found obesity is

contagious when your friends get

divorced you're more likely to get

divorced but also when your friends get

happy you're more likely to get happy

the problem is with happiness has been

in Decline since about 1990 one of the

reasons is that we need struggle and

suffering for us to actually get the joy

that we seek but we know that for

example 95% of D fail is the most

unsuccessful industry in the world

because the arrival fallacy that when I

actually get rid of the belly fat then

I'm actually going to have a more

wonderful life that's actually not true

you actually get more satisfaction from

the progress okay so if not a weight

number or a financial number what's a

better more realistic goal to set that

has more chance of success to being

happier there are goals that actually do

lead to the happiest life and the more

you have the better off you are the four

goals that really matter

are quick one this is really really

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[Music]

deal Arthur Steve what do you do I

am dedicated to lifting people up and

bringing them together using the science

and ideas around human happiness where

did you teach I teach at Harvard

University are you a professor of

Happiness yeah I'm a professor of

leadership technically at the Harvard

Kennedy School and the Harvard Business

School but my area is leadership and

happiness so I've studied the the

science of Happiness which is a huge

growing field multi-dimensional field

across Social Psychology and

Neuroscience behavioral economics

Philosophy for a long time and what I

try to do is I bring it to Future

Leaders in politics and policy and

especially business and help them

understand themselves as happiness

teachers so they can be happier and they

can be more successful and bring more

happiness to the people they lead what

is the state of Happiness can you qu can

we quantify that where we are in terms

of are we getting happier as a people or

more unhappy as a people we can we can't

so the United Nations and a lot of other

places try to see the happiest country

you've seen those data a lot the

happiest countri it's always Denmark

it's always the Nordic countries um you

can't do that and that's like the way

that that happens is they go to 100

countries and they they survey a

thousand people in each of countries and

say how do you evaluate your life that's

like asking people in every country how

much you like the music in your country

and on the basis of the highest rankings

internally you say who has the best

music that doesn't really make sense

it's you know it's bad methodology you

can look at the average well-being

across a population where people are

having more or less the same experience

so I on inside countries inside

communities over time I'm I'm willing to

look at that and that shows that in most

of the oecd countries including the

United States and UK our countries um

happiness has been in Decline since

about

1990 since about 1990 yeah is that when

you were born yeah

92 it's not you it's

us what is um I always think when people

commit their lives largely to a topic

that that must have very personal roots

with that individual sure what are your

personal roots with the subject of

Happiness it's hard for me it's hard for

me I'm not a naturally happy person I'm

way below average in happiness and at

least 50% of that is genetic by the way

so there's a lot of research looking at

identical twins there's a whole database

of identical twins born between the mid

1930s and 1960s that were adopted into

separate families at Birth then reunited

as adults this was not an experiment

that was cooked up by some you know

diabolical Harvard you know social

scientists like me it was it happened

naturally just over the of events and

when they were reunited they were given

personality tests you can see some of

these meetings where they were reunited

on on YouTube and they're they're

wonderful they're joyful and funny you

find that you have an identical twin you

didn't know about and say finding all

these commonalities but of course

there's always a bunch of social

scientists you know with with clipboards

you know Annoying them like me you know

taking data and so the personality tests

all show that between 40 and 80% of your

personality genetic

and the rest is

environmental and experiential and

circumstantial but 80% up to 80% that's

a lot and that means your openness to

experience your conscientiousness as a

person your extroversion agreeableness

neuroticism and and happiness is about

50% genetic your mother literally made

you unhappy

Steve I'm or happy your results May Vary

was your household a happy

place it was a complicated place but it

wasn't terrible because my parents were

good parents and they loved each other

and they loved us but my relationship by

the time I was a young adult was

cordial because they were busy with

their issues and you know this is one of

the things that I talk about with a lot

of people nobody has a perfect childhood

and a lot of people are troubled by

their childhood and they feel doomed to

repeat the circumstances of their

childhoods but they're not you can

rewrite your own past history by looking

back at what happened and deciding to

change certain variables in the way that

you're going to live your adult life so

Steve you're going to get married and

you're going to have children and then

you need to look at your own childhood

and say what are the things that I want

to be the same and what are the things

that I want to be different I'm

designing my life right now on not just

on the basis of the things that went

right but on the basis of the things

that went wrong you know I wasn't close

to my parents they never lived close to

me my children who are now growing up

never had a an intense experience of a

relationship with any of their

grandparents they're one side lived in

Barcelona the other side lived in

Seattle we were you know in New York and

Washington DC and and and and so now no

you know I'm I'm going to live near my

kids and I'm a grandfather now um all

three of my adult kids are hearing from

me every day on FaceTime whether they

want to or not I see my grandson as much

as I can next week I turn down a whole

bunch of work because I I get to babysit

my my grandson is there any research

that proves people who have hope in

their lives have greater chances of

survival whether it's with when they're

suffering with you know illnesses or I

often think about this sort of

stereotype that when someone retires

yeah or when they stop working or when

their partner dies in old age so they

might be both of them might be 90 years

old when one of the partners dies it

seems that the the remaining the

surviving partner has months left

sometimes that's mostly true the when is

not true here's this is depressing how

you know that statistic which is that if

the husband dies the wife is going to be

fine really yeah widows are way happier

than widowers I told that to my wife and

she's like

huh um widowers do really poorly

generally men do very poorly part of the

reason is

because these data are disputed but more

or less they're they're directionally

correct 60% of 60-year old men say their

best friend is their wife 30% of their

wives say their best friend is their

husband women have more relationships

they have close or deeper love

relationships with non-related kin and

with the adult children typically than

than the than the husband does the

husband's most intense companion

relationship typically is with the wife

and that's why that's an asymmetric stat

and that's what the data say but yeah

for sure I mean back to the main point

hope is super critical on illness on

everything I mean hope actually affects

all sorts of physiological processes and

we know that when people lose hope they

give up and when they give up they don't

take care of themselves they don't do

what they need to do they don't exercise

like they should they don't they're not

as active they're not talking to other

people their minds are not stimulated

they don't eat right they might use

substances and ways that they shouldn't

and all of those things compound and so

just at the physiological level you'd

see that you'd be You' have degradation

when there is no hope and when you're 90

you can't afford it actually I'm 59 I

can't afford it either and neither can

you at 31 we all need hope this is he

huge to the extent that you can actually

bring hope to People by showing them

they can do something as an agent in

their own future that's just giving them

a longer better more successful life

that that's that's what I want to do

with my work you know because I've seen

so much I mean since I've actually

dedicated myself to this I have very

good protocols for measuring my own

well-being and I don't game the numbers

I mean I have there there's

macronutrients to your happiness you

have to take the different elements it's

not a single measur thing and there are

micronutrients that you can aggregate up

to it and I follow this um very

carefully month by month by month

semester by semester year by year and I

take the same tests as my students do

every year and I am 60% happier than I

was five years ago because of my work

because of the work that you've done on

yourself or because of your work as a

both because here's the deal if you want

to be happier you need to understand the

science you need to apply it to your

life you need to share it with others

because you won't remember it and hold

yourself accountable unless you're

teaching it that's why I teach people to

be happiness teachers interesting yeah

yeah so so my guess is how long you been

doing the podcast two years we launched

on YouTube three years ago yeah it's uh

it's probably having a big effect on

your life huge because you're talking

about these ideas and my guess is that

you're in your private life you're

talking about the ideas that you learned

with other people and every time you

share these ideas you imprint them not

just sort of they're not just limic

fantasms they become you use them with

the executive centers of your brain the

more that you learn the more you talk

about what you learn the better off you

get you're only talking about things

that Empower people and lift them up and

make their lives better these are the

topics of what you do right because you

want people to be happier and more

successful that's the point of the show

right and that's how you're getting

happier and more

successful is there research that shows

this point of agency correlates to

happiness and survival yes like

longevity and so agency essentially

means that the belief that you have

control over your life and your future

in essence yeah and that you're there

are things that you can do so that

you're not helpless helplessness is the

problem this this gets back to the work

of Marty Seligman in the in the late 60s

and 19 early 1970s he's the father of

positive psychology he created the whole

field of positive psychology he's a

great mentor and hero to me he's done so

much for me and and intellectually and

in my career and as as a friend just as

a person and when he was doing his early

work he was doing animal stuff studies

and work on human beings to take away

their agency so he would do things like

people would be you know putting nickels

into a slot machine and they would

figure out along the way that it didn't

matter if they pulled the handle or not

that they were getting the same outcomes

that he took away just little tiny bits

of agency he had dogs in boxes where the

they would shock the floors of the boxes

this is hard to get through internal

review boards now but they would because

it seems cruel it wasn't big shocks but

the whole point was that the dogs would

you know step off the parts of the floor

that were shocking them but when they

couldn't do that anymore they would just

like lie down and whimper on the

shocking floor they would give up this

is called learned helplessness people

will learn their helplessness when they

realize that when they when or they

figure out or they conclude or they're

told by politicians and media and

activists and everybody else that

there's nothing that they can do and

they're a victim when you take on the

identity a victim you learn your

helplessness and that will degrade your

quality of life make you less successful

less happy and a lot of studies say that

you'll you won't even live as

long this point of agency is so

interesting I um I had someone on the

show at the very beginning of the show

and he said that he basically

crowdsources his book guy called Mo gat

you might know the guy says he

crowdsources his book and he gets 500

people to reread to read his book before

it comes out and he goes when we got

down to the part in my book about

personal responsibility he goes 8% of

people drop off the Google Document

because they don't want to read it uhuh

yeah no that's a spinach this this and

and it's interesting because I have this

column that comes out every Thursday

morning in the Atlantic 12 or 1300 words

on the signs of happiness and about once

every two or three months I have a

spinach column which says you want to be

happy be humble you want to be happy

change your mind you want to be happy

don't tell somebody if they disagree

with you that they're stupid and evil

listen listen more than you talk you

know just what your grandmother told you

right about how to be a successful

person but it's all about Humanity about

humility but these are hard things in a

society where all of our biases are I'm

right you're wrong I don't want to

listen la la la la la if it goes against

my my whatever ideological biases that I

happen to have and I'll write a spinach

column and those are the ones that get

way less way fewer readers do you know

what's interesting I was as you were

speaking I was thinking that nobody

thinks they're a victim they can spot

victimhood in other people very

successfully but there's no one

listening to this right now that would

say

I am a victim so how does one know if

they are a victim well I mean a lot of

people will say I am a victim of these

institutional biases a lot of people

will a lot of people really will say

that I mean they will say that I'm a

victim of capitalism or I'm a victim of

powerful people I'm a victim of of

conspiracies that are happen the the

Deep State whatever happens to be a lot

of people really will talk about it in

that particular way and that's sort of

the problem now of course all victims of

something but we all have tons of power

and the really interesting thing in life

is to show people the levels of power

that they have the levers of power that

they have that don't start with trying

to change the outside world that start

with the inside of their heads that's

what I'm dedicated to doing is showing

people that the hope that they should

have comes from the The Leverage they

have over their circumstances which

starts with what they thought they had

the least control over their emotions

their happiness their well-being the

love that they experience because the

commitments that they make if you really

want to have power start with managing

yourself not trying to manage the

outside world is happiness a choice

happiness is unattainable because it's a

direction not a destination is being

happier a choice yes being happier is a

choice on the basis of the commitment

that you are going to make in your life

and in your relationships in the way

that you manage yourself absolutely do

you think there is a starting point to

being happier yeah it actually starts

with a

starts with U recognizing that most of

what Society tells us about happiness is

wrong what's wrong it's not a feeling

happiness is not a feeling on my first

day of class I have you know two

sections of 90 MBA students at the

Harvard Business School and they they're

taking this happiness science of

Happiness seminar I've got 400 in the

waiting list there's an illegal Zoom

link they think I don't know about right

it's the happiness class it's super fun

I love it I love my students they're

terrific and the I cold call them on the

first day by saying you know what's

happiness I pick one two 3 10 what's

happiness and they will say it's the

feeling I get when I'm with the people

that I love or it's how I feel when I'm

doing what I enjoy feelings feelings

feelings feelings I say wrong the

biggest barrier to actually getting

happier is believing that happiness is a

feeling it's not it's happiness is

evidence or feelings are evidence of

Happiness like the smell of dinner is

evidence of dinner that's how to

understand feelings now feelings are

really really important your affect your

mood is critically important but

happiness is something a lot more

tangible you start getting happier the

beginning of Happiness of be of getting

happier because true happiness is not

the goal because you have to have

negative emotions negative emotions keep

you alive negative experiences make you

learn and grow so you don't want pure

happiness the Side of Heaven H dangerous

you'd be dead quickly without a lot of

unhappiness but getting happier starts

with this understanding that really what

it is is the pursuit of three things

enjoyment satisfaction and meaning those

are the three macronutrients so you and

I are nutrition nerds right and what we

all know and I've heard people say on

your show is that most people get

insufficient protein and when you come

to America Everybody Eats way too many

highly glycemic carbohydrates right

happiness is the same thing we get the

macronutrient profile wrong we need more

enjoyment satisfaction and meaning we

know we have to know how to get them in

in efficient and healthy ways and we

need them in Balance can you define

enjoyment satisfaction and meaning for

me what yeah see this is the problem

because a lot of people think they know

what these things are but they aren't

but this is the adventure because once

you kind of get into the details of this

then you've got real strategies for

getting happier the definition provides

strategy so let's start with enjoyment

okay most people think it's the same as

pleasure but that's wrong pleasure is a

limic phenomenon now of course you know

this because you've had you've had

plenty of guests who talked about the

lmic system of the brain that's the

console of tissue deep inside the brain

that's been evolving over the past 40

million years it takes signals from the

brain stem and other parts rudimentary

structures in the brain it takes those

signals about what's going on in the

outside in the lyic system it translates

them into information all your emotions

are is information there's no such thing

as good and bad feelings bad feelings

good feel no they're all good they might

be maladapted but but the point is

positive and negative emotions keep you

alive you need especially the negative

emotions I talk about negative emotions

all the time because they survival is

critical and so anger and sadness and

fear and disgust which are the big four

negative emotions these have kept you

alive thousands and thousands and

thousands of times really important that

information there then is relayed onto

the neocortex of the brain specifically

the prefrontal cortex the bumper of

tissue right behind your forehead where

you can figure out what are these

emotions what do they mean and how am I

going to react according to them now a

lot of times these signals are all

goofed up and and we're very reactive

which means that we're not letting our

prefrontal cortex catch up with our lyic

system and that's a lot of the work that

I do but back to enjoyment enjoyment is

not the same as pleasure because

pleasure is limic it's nothing more than

a signal where the ventral straight and

the reward center of your brain is

getting tapped in the lyic system saying

that thing is going to be good for

survival and passing on your genes

that's why feels good go do it sex and

sugar sex and sugar sex and sugar and a

lot and gambling Which social media has

a lot in common with slot machines and

all these little things that get back to

your primordial evolutionary past I know

you love The evolutionary biology and

psychology because this gives us so much

information about who we are today look

at the place to see and see yourself

kind of and and all of these things that

give us pleasure it's because they they

went back to survival and propagation of

the species so importantly all those

pleasure-filled things if you pursue

them you're just sitting in your lyic

system and modern technology and Society

will engorge these things into

incredibly unhealthy practices so you

get you know we have natural endorphins

that make us feel good and and help us

when we actually get hurt so that we can

get back to our cave and of course we've

chemically altered them into fentel

which feels great until you die fenel is

not a big thing in the UK but it's a

huge thing here it's huge I mean we have

a 100,000 drug overdose deaths every

year in the United States mostly because

of fentanyl it's unbelievable but that

that we have other versions of that you

know we can have stochastic experiences

you know things that that that happen

occasionally and give us a reward when

we when something happens um not in

predictably but

unpredictably um and so we make slot

machines and they give us all this that

you know tap into that that brain

chemistry or we want to propagate the

species and so we turn it into

pornography which is unbelievably

powerful and dangerous for the brain

because it captures the brain and

destroys relationships along the way

it's just feny in its way but all of

these things are just pleasure pleasure

anything that can be addictive which

pleasure-filled things typically can if

you if you do them compulsively over and

over and over again it will make you

less happy but here's know when people

ask me so does that mean I should never

drink alcohol I should never gamble no

no no no you need to add two things to

turn them into enjoyment you need to add

people in memory because if you add

people in memory to something then

you're moving the experience into your

prefrontal

cortex that's when it's fully human

that's when it's not an animal

experience it's a human experience and

that is a very important part of your

happiness and so the big question is if

something's addictive if you're doing it

alone you're probably doing it wrong

what about sex that's pornography and

masturbation is alone and that's not

good for you is the whole

point that's I mean again reasonable

people disagree and some people be like

what's this guy talking about but the

whole point is that that the data on

pornography or that it captures the

brain and ultimately it doesn't on

average lead to happier lives because it

truncates the reproductive experience at

the level of pleasure and doesn't take

it all the way to

enjoyment interesting yeah have you have

you studied porn much as a subject sort

of everybody in my field whes up there

it's not something that I focus that

much on cuz you know it's focusing on

the research on pornography makes you

look a little creepy at P

59 it's not a good look it's like so so

so what do you study it's like

yeah interesting so people in memory

turn pleasure into enjoyment to

enjoyment that's right so alcohol add

people in memory you know the anheiser

bush Corporation doesn't put out

advertisements of you know a dude alone

in his apartment pounding a

12-pack that's how a lot of people use

the product but that's everybody knows

that's an irresponsible dangerous thing

to do that can lead to alcoholism what

they show is the same guy with his

brothers and friends you know clink and

bottles together having a great time

that is pleasure alcohol plus people

plus memory equals enjoyment and that

leads to happiness because they want to

join their brand to happiness not just

to Pure Pleasure and certainly not to

addiction same with like Coca-Cola all

the Coca-Cola ads are like the world cup

with your friends and In Summer with

your friends and and that's actually

less addictive I mean there are certain

you know the sugar and and caffeine are

certainly adictive but they don't have

the same properties of of brain capture

in the same way for sure because they

don't they don't stimulate as much

dopamine as as you know something like

alcohol does and and so they're less

likely to make you really addicted but

the whole point is that they're it it

does give you a little bit of pleasure

but it makes you way happier if you get

to enjoyment and you only get that when

you're doing it with people satisfaction

satisfaction is the joy you get after

struggle you're an entrepreneur you

understand this one really well you're

at deferring your gratification all

entrepreneurs are good successful

entrepreneurs are good at deferring

gratification which means I'm going to

do this hard thing and it's going to get

big payoff and that payoff is going to

be

sweet that's satisfaction there a really

funny thing about humans is that we need

struggle and suffering for us to

actually get the joy that we seek and

that's a really important part of our

happiness so you find the people who are

better at deferring their gratification

get more satisfaction and they're

happier there's a lot of that remember

you've heard about the marshmallow

experiment yeah and you know people have

debunked it but they actually haven't so

the marshmallow experiment was taken

place it took place in the late' 60s

where Walter Michelle was a psychologist

at Stanford out in paloalto he had a you

know a little laboratory set up where he

would come in and sit down on one side

of a table and there was a kid on the

other side of the table between four and

eight years old and in front of the kid

was a marshmallow and so he says to the

kid you want the marshmallow the kid's

like yeah yeah he says I tell you what I

have to go take a phone call in the back

here but when I come back if the

marshmallow is still there I'll give you

another one can you wait every kid's

like yeah totally totally totally worth

it he comes back five minutes later or

so 80% of the kids had eaten the

marshmallow 20% of the kids hadn't now

that's a lot 80% of the kids could not

to further gratification so the real

question is who's the 20% it's Steve

Bartlett that these are the people that

went on to do distinguished things they

did better in school they got better

grades they went on to have more job

success they had better relationships

that's what they found that the most

successful kids now the that what people

fight about now is why whether it's

nature or nurture it's probably 50/50

like everything else in life it's both

nature and nurture but the bigger point

is good things come to those who wait

and when you wait you suffer and you

need that suffering as part of the basic

satisfying experience now the bigger

problem with satisfaction is that Mother

Nature has a big lie at the end of it

Mother Nature says if you get it you're

going to love it forever and that's not

true see the the the brain the brain

works emotionally and physically in um

an environment of homeostasis

homeostasis means that you always return

to your Baseline physiologically and

emotionally because you can't stay in a

in a in in an unusual physiological

State unusual states are are reaction

you need to be ready to react and so you

know you step off the tread Mill your

heart is elevated your heart goes back

to where it was so you're not dead in a

week the same thing is true for you

emotionally something really good or bad

happens to you you think it's going to

last forever so that you have an

incentive to avoid or approach the thing

but it doesn't last forever does it

that's the problem we actually think

that if I get that billion dollars it's

going to be really great and the first

thing that somebody who has a billion

dollars says to her himself is I guess I

needed another billion

because of homeostasis and that puts you

on something called the hedonic

treadmill more more more more more more

more more so that's the great conundrum

of the striver is that there's never

enough Never Enough never enough I deal

with people all day long I really

specialize in people who are incredibly

successful but not happy and a lot of

what I do is explain one simple equation

that both explains that but also gives

you the solution which is that your

satisfaction doesn't come from all the

things that you have so have more is not

the right strategy satisfaction is all

the things you have divided by the

things that you want halves divided by

wants successful people need to manage

their wants even more than they need to

manage their halves they need to want

less and that's a whole kettle of fish

that's spirituality that's discipline

that's Fitness that's diet that's a

whole lot of things that go into that

and that will help you actually get

enduring

satisfaction sounds like a contradiction

though doesn't it sounds like a

contradiction to that the striving and

the struggle is going to make me happy

but I should want less yeah what people

actually who crack this code and and a

lot of you know Eastern Traditions

actually get into this is not that

striving is bad but that striving in

itself has an has a a reward to it that

you that the process and what you find

out along the way is that what you

wanted was not a right rival what you

wanted was progress and then you start

to get the reward from the progress

itself there's a funny thing in the the

in the research on dieting we all know

that is the most expensive unsuccessful

industry in the world right 95% of diets

fail which means within a year people

have gained back all the weight that

they've lost but they're successful in

so far as that almost everybody loses

weight when they go on a diet here's the

thing about diets every day you're

willing to foro the food you like in

exchange for the reward which is the

scale going down

when you hit your goal it's going to be

so great it's going to be so great you

know what the reward is Dave you never

again get to eat the things that you

like for the rest of your life

congratulations once you've got there

that's why you fail and the arrival

fallacy which is an identifiable

phenomenon in my field is that it's

going to be sweet when I get to the goal

it isn't what you're going to have is

homeostasis when you get to your goal

frustration and disappointment therefore

you need to want less you need to think

about the about less about wanting these

arrival experience experiences and get

more satisfaction from the progress from

the journey that's really what it comes

down to and people who crack that code

over the course of self-discipline self-

understanding self-management they can

actually experience remarkably higher

satisfaction the dolly Lama I've been

working with the dolly llama closely for

the past 11 years and I asked him this

question how can I get lasting

satisfaction and he said you need to

want what you have not to have what you

want and that's what it comes down to

it's the management of my wants not my

Hales on that point we're at the time of

year now where so many people are

thinking about diets you mentioned that

there so for those people that are

approaching that moment and that you

know they're going to be setting their

goals and stuff and all those kinds of

things what is a better goal to set if

not a weight number or a financial

number or whatever what's a better more

realistic um goal to set that has more

chance of success yeah has it it's it's

interesting because there are certain

things that we can accumulate that won't

homeostatically return us to the

Baseline that won't throw us onto this

honic treadmill over and over and over

again those goals are the goals that

actually do lead to the happiest life

and the more you have the better off you

are or more actually is better but they

don't fall into the categories of money

power pleasure and fame which are the

typical kind of goals that we get or

related goals like weight loss or you

know whatever it happens to be the four

goals that really matter are Faith

Family friendship and work that serves

others those are the four really great

and Transcendent goals that we can have

now there's nothing wrong with money or

power or pleasure or fame there's

nothing wrong with those things but only

as intermediate goals to make it easier

for us to pursue and

accumulate deeper Faith or philosophical

life I'm not talking about traditional

religious Faith necessarily better

family relationships which are very

mystical um poorly understood even in

Neuroscience in a lot of ways friendship

deep friendship it's hard for a lot of

people especially successful people and

work that where you earn your success

and serve other people that's what it

comes down to so those are the right New

Year's goals that we need you know this

year what am I going to do what how am I

how am I going to grow closer to the

Divine how am I going to do that this

year what am I going to do to draw

closer to my family and to have a a more

intimate relationship with my family how

am I going to have deeper friendships

this year and how am I going to take my

work

and find it more meaningful and

satisfying on the basis of serving other

people how am I going to do that what

is we haven't got to meaning yet yeah we

haven't got to meaning yet you said the

word there but but I want to make sure I

close off on this point about a better

goal because there's still going to be a

huge group of people that go listen I

get it love it I believe it but I hate

this belly fat yeah I get it and this

belly fat yo-yos every year so so those

are intermediate goals and there's

nothing wrong with those things the

problem is where they become satisfying

and self-destructive is when that's the

final goal Because by the time you get

there you think why why that wasn't as

meaningful as I thought that wasn't as

good as I thought that's the arrival

fallacy that when I actually get rid of

the belly fat then I'm actually going to

have somehow a more wonderful life

that's actually not true the reason that

you're doing that is because you want to

live longer with your spouse and see

your and and you dandel your 11

grandchildren on your knee that's the

reason you want to do this because you

need to do it for some intrinsic reason

as opposed to an extrinsic reason having

to do with people will love me more I

mean it's amazing to me cuz I you know

I'm I do a lot of you know wellness and

fitness and stuff as it interacts with

happiness I I work with a lot of people

who are very big in the longevity

Community because I have sort of the

happiness console the science of the

happiness console that I put into those

things and and so I meet a lot of people

that are really into the fitness part

and and what what a lot of guys will

tell me is that they'll have these

fitness goals like I'm going to put on

15 pounds of muscle this year and I'm

going to get rid of all my belly fat and

the whole thing and and buy if they

stick to it by September or October

where they're finding is that you know

they're not getting any more attention

or compliments from women but a lot of

dudes are going looking good dude and

they're like that's not what I

wanted and part of the reason is because

the arrival fallacy is you build up this

image of what will actually come from

the the satis the satisfaction that will

come from hitting these intermediate

goals these aren't the right final goals

you got to have the right final goals

then set some intermediate goals along

the way but not let's not kid ourselves

and when you think carefully about that

that losing your last five pounds of

belly fat so you can see your lower

abs which by the way is not necessarily

that

healthy is going to materially improve

your life and your relationships it's

not just isn't what's a better end goal

then as it relates to Fitness would it

be something more centered on health

yeah it is something that's actually

sustainable and having you do with

health also with happiness is the way

that this works so I work out 60 minutes

a day it's not because I'm vain look I'm

like I got a face for radio Steve I mean

it's good I don't know what you're

talking about I know but it's age

adjusted I look good you know this I

think you look good period and I'm not

you know I've got a girlfriend but

credit where credits to you the thank

you Steve I appreciate that

but you made my week see this was my

goal

yeah but the reason that I do this is

because I find that for me that working

out as much as I can is much harder than

working out every day working out every

day is much easier than working out as

often as I can right amen yeah and

practicing my religion every day is much

easier than practicing my religion when

it when it comes naturally to me or when

I find it convenient eating healthily is

much easier when I do it every day and

so the result of that is that I find

that with those particular routines I

program those things into my life and

I'm a much happier guy look at lowers my

cortisol levels which are naturally very

high I'm a very anxious person um and

and I understand anxiety I understand

the cortisol production I understand how

to manage it and and this is one of my

management techniques thing about

Fitness to understand is when I say it

makes you happier it actually doesn't it

lowers your unhappiness happiness and

unhappiness largely the experiences of

happiness and unhappiness which is to

say posi positive and negative affect

they're produced in different parts of

the lyic system so you can both be very

high happiness and very high unhappiness

I have tests for that that I put my

students through you're probably

somebody who experiences both very high

positive effect and very high negative

effect we've only met but my guess is

that you're a mad scientist that's the

profile and so that means is you got two

strategies you want to keep your

positive effect high and you want to

manage your negative effect effect and

one of the best ways to manage your

negative effect effect is physical

exercise vigorous physical exercise

today today for me was leg day I hate

leg day but I feel pretty good right

now okay that makes sense I've got an

answer there that I that I'm super clear

on um I should be aiming at the end goal

of Happiness ultimately even if it the

intermediary goals are things like belly

fat and these short-term things that are

measurements of my progress towards the

bigger goal and the real key here is

consistency yeah I this was the big

unlock for my whole Fitness thing

because I was that person which will be

90% of people listening now that made

the goal every year that I was going to

go to you know change my life every year

never worked right because I was aiming

at getting a pack for summer so when I

arrived with the six pack and it worked

or summer it was great I look great I

got I actually got I think I got a

couple of compliments which was nice

however the minute summer finished or

the six-pack arrived I could not find

for the life of me the motivation no so

I'd go into winter and I'd become

there's no willpower that can that like

you cannot muscle these things out

unless they become a part of your life

consistency making my goal consistency

andits was the big unlock for me for

sure because then okay the goal

becomes if I go to the gym every day if

I make that part of my habits I'm going

to be healthier happier better at my job

[ __ ] is there anything more important

is that less important than a six-pack

and that mind set shift changed my life

for sure meaning then meaning was the

last of the three yeah meaning is the

why of your life this is the hardest for

most people especially young adults this

is really really hard so meaning is is

really a combination of three things

it's coherent purpose and significance

coherence is things happen for a reason

and so meaning in your life means you

got to have a theory about why things

happen like it's one damn thing after

another I mean you got to have some

concept of why things happen purpose is

my life has Direction and has goals

that's what purpose really is I'm going

in this direction toward these things

without getting stuck on the arrival

fallacy and the last but not least is

significance which is it would matter if

I weren't here I'm significant those are

the three parts of me meaning in

people's lives according to you know

philosophers and social psychologist so

there there's a test that I give my

students that kind of

encompasses these three ideas so you can

remember them into two questions and you

have a meaning crisis if you actually

don't have answers to these questions

that you believe and there's no right

answers you just got to have your

answers you want to play yeah here's the

quiz question number one why are you

alive you can answer that in terms of

who created you or what you're on Earth

to do both okay so why am I alive that's

something that I get to answer every

single day I get to Define that by what

I chose to do this morning when I woke

up what was it I went to the gym I was

on the running machine because I know

I've got a not going to be able to today

and then I came here and had this

conversation with you yeah but why are

you why are you doing this conversation

with me Steve the iag guy Theory comes

to mind when you ask that which is it's

incredibly selfish I learned a

tremendous amount already just from this

conversation and I know that it pays um

pays it forward to other people who are

going to going to learn from it as well

and that makes it feel worthwhile so you

said two things fun and service yeah

right which is more important to

you transcendentally which is more

important to you it's the service part

yeah okay good we're that gives me all

my that gives me all my Worth right but

the more you focus on that the better it

gets now we uncovered that so now

thinking about that you put the order of

operations into the podcast to say did

it does it serve is that guest going to

serve is this question going to serve is

this show going to serve is this

sponsor GNA serve the people who are

watching this podcast then suddenly

meaning starts to go starts to really

spread out of the soil because you we

got to that if it's like is it fun yeah

good so look my my whole have a company

and that that that rides alongside what

I do academically and everybody that

works with me we have an order of

operations and the order of operations

are these are the four goals but they

have to be in this order you just told

me that the order of operations is serve

other people and have fun for your work

that's what you basically said it's

probably more like lift people up and

have an adventure that's probably in

intellectual Adventure right but the

order of operations has to be right if

you're having fun more than you're

serving other people you're not going to

find your sense of meaning based on that

first question so you see you see where

we're going with that right

so the second question is harder for

what are you willing to die today

there's a couple of people in my life

that I die for I die for my romantic

partner i' die for my brothers and

sisters any of them

MH interestingly I don't know if I die

for my parents which is interesting did

you die for an

idea did you die for your

country I would die it when you say for

my country do you mean to save the

country I don't know I mean if you were

called to even if it were

ridiculous even if you thought it were

ridiculous would you die because you

love your

country it depends what you mean by that

what's the cost if I what's the cost if

I stay alive no I know and I and it's it

everything is context specific to a

certain extent but really what I'm I'm

trying to see is what's your what's your

kind of reaction is to this you know to

see what the there are good things in

there you are willing to die for your

girlfriend yeah Will to die for your

brothers and sisters Mom and Dad it's

like jur kind your mom listen to this

podcast they do but I'm just being

honest because I think I think I don't

know why I said that but I just I no for

sure this is good this is really

important right this is worth thinking

about right now the worst answer is I

don't know or nothing those are the

worst answers that doesn't mean it's a

problem on the contrary it's a huge

opportunity huge entrepreneurial

opportunity to realize you don't have

answers to these questions because you

don't have to go to you know get your

PhD in philosophy you don't have to sit

at the mouth of the cave with the guru

someplace in the himas you need to look

for your answers to these questions

that's it that's the quest that's the

Vision Quest so and when you see

somebody find these things like a lot of

young adults have they're nowhere near

you where you are on your journey you're

solid Steve I mean this is good stuff

but I meet a lot of people like why am I

alive cuz a egg met a sperm really

yeah and what are you willing to die for

nothing really or I don't know right A

lot of people and then they uncover that

they don't have a why is what it comes

down to repeat the questions again why

are you alive and for what are you

willing to die this very

day there's no wrong

answers I have so many young kids in

particular messaging me on Instagram

with the same question which is I think

Society Instagram quotes all of that

stuff has told them that they need to

find find their purpose and it seems

that they're in Hunt of their purpose

like it's some Easter egg um and you

think about that phrase itself find your

purpose it comes loaded with two

assumptions find which means you got to

go search for it and purpose which is a

singular word means there's one of them

somewhere and the unhappiness that I

sense because they were unable to find

this Easter egg somewhere that they've

been searching for causes them to feel

all kinds of inadequacy what do you say

to that yeah well part of it is because

that's the what we call in in business

the go find a rock theory of leadership

where the the CEO says to an employee go

give me a rock like what go give me a

rock okay so you go outside and you

bring a rock back in the boss says wrong

Rock that's not helpful right that's go

find your purpose that's the go find a

rock theory of leadership it's like what

rock how where do I look the world is

full of rocks that's so you need to be a

lot more specific and figuring out

deeply why you believe you're walking

the Earth why you actually are alive

besides just the mechanical you know

explanation for what we understand in in

10th grade biology the real why the Deep

why you're alive and and think really I

mean if with push came to shove I would

die for this I actually would die for

this thing that's when you understand

what your deepest values are that's when

you can actually write your mission

statement that's what it comes down to

and that's how people actually find is

opposed to just platitudes on the

internet of go find your purpose as if I

mean I I spent a lot of time in darmala

in in the Himalayan Foothills this where

the Dal Lama lives in in um in Northern

India and uh when I'm me in darm Solo

was a little village until the Daly Lama

went there about 1960 when he was exiled

from China when was kicked out of Tibet

and now it's not a metropolis but

there's tons of people there and there's

I meet a lot of westerners there there's

Seekers I'm a seek Seeker man gosh yeah

yeah I'm a seeker and so I'm going to go

to a place where I feel like there's a

lot of positive spiritual energy and

don't get me wrong I mean I've you know

I've studied meditation with the Dal

Lamas Tibetan Buddhist monks I mean it's

I'm a much better Catholic on the basis

of this I feel like I'm I'm I'm a deeper

Christian on the basis of this but the

idea of just going someplace and and and

randomly looking hoping that your

purpose just hunts you down is misguided

you have to have a much better more

specific sense of what you're looking

for and these things coherence

significance and purpose as part of

meaning or the way to do it and those

two questions are a good way at least to

get started there's going to be a huge

you know group of people that are listen

to this and thinking you know what I

don't have anything that I would die for

and I don't really know why I'm alive

yeah and that's just made me hugely good

news it's incredibly good news because

that's the basis of your adventure is to

find those things cuz in point of fact

there are things out there you just

don't know them yet and you haven't been

looking for them you've been who knows

what you've been looking for like maybe

even looking for what I like right why

is that wrong there's nothing wrong but

it's just not going to find it's not

going to be the secret of finding your

meaning what I enjoy is a different

pillar of Happiness a lot of people will

say if I figure out what I enjoy then

I'll find my meaning no those are

different there different you're over on

that branch of the tree you're trying to

get over on this branch of the tree

different questions so I'm that person

say that person now and I don't have

answers to either you tell me it's

that's a great place to be because it

means the start of my adventure yeah

what do I do put my shoes on and leave

the house what what Jo so there's a a

lot of different protocols you can

actually start depending on where where

you on your life one of the things that

I actually recommend is reading more not

reading garbage and dumb stuff and not

even reading the news I put people on a

protocol of 15 minutes a day of of of

real reading actually there's a

three-part plan you want to hear the

three-part plan to actually start

figuring out the answers of these

questions M you don't have to answer the

questions directly but number one is

start thinking to yourself what do I

think is right and wrong what are my

moral principles what are my moral

non-negotiables that's the moral basis

of living it's the foundation of

actually figuring out the answers to

your questions so for me that might be I

think like free speech is important for

example um treating people with dignity

equality cool right and this is going to

change over the course of your life too

so you know you're 28 years younger than

me when you're my age is going to be

different and and saying to yourself

that's good I want to change I want to

change I want to change and that means

that one of your non-negotiables is

moral flexibility perhaps really

important that you're able to evolve

right the world doesn't want you to

evolve the world wants you to be rigid

because you're a better soldier in the

culture War when you're not able to say

huh what I thought actually probably

isn't right huh weird right okay so so

that's that's number one is the moral

foundations and thinking about that you

know I I asked my students to take out a

piece of paper and write start writing

things down that they think he the

things that I actually think are right

and wrong here the basis of the way that

I want to live now this is a very yian

idea Carl Jung said that the basis of

happiness is figuring out what you

believe and acting according to it

living according to it that the basis of

unhappiness is living not in accord with

your own

morals in other words I believe these

things are right and wrong and I'm

systematically violating them it's so

incredibly empowering when talk to a

young woman or man and I say for example

what do you think is a decent way to

treat a member of the opposite sex when

you're on a date and they'll tell me and

I say are you acting according to that

they're like no I said that's why you're

unhappy according to Carl Yung but also

according to Common Sense Once you know

what that is and say I'm going to start

acting and living according to my own

principles your life starts to change

why is that so say someone right now is

for example cheating on their partner

but they know and they're against

cheating they're against cheating they

know it's everybody's against cheating

by the way betraying somebody you love

everybody's against betraying somebody

you love right that's actually natural

law if you believe there's any natural

law why is why why is that making them

unhappy that's making them unhappy

because that's doing violence to their

own sense of propriety you're hurting

yourself you know the most ancient

wisdom traditions and religious

Traditions when they talk about Sin you

know Islam and Christianity and Judaism

and Hinduism and name the religion

there's a concept of sin right sin in

almost every religious tradition is not

offending God it's hurting yourself it's

self-destructive Behavior you're doing

something not in accord with the way

that you want to live and in so doing

you're weakening yourself you're making

it harder for you

to understand yourself as a good person

as a person of Integrity as an upright

person which we actually need and again

there's a lot of go back to the social

psychology research on this we need to

see ourselves as good people it goes

back to your point as well about

helplessness and agency because if I

know that that is bad but I can't seem

to stop myself doing it yeah I'm telling

myself that I'm low agency and I'm

helpless I'm a victim of my own sin yeah

I'm a victim of my own weakness I'm a

victim of my own impulses so this is one

of the reasons that people will be like

I hate how I eat what are they actually

saying they're not saying that I I hate

you know I mean like I I'm a sugar Fiend

I love I just can't get enough of it I

don't drink alcohol but I drink tons of

sugar lots of sugar I shouldn't do it

now it doesn't offend my sense of

propriety to be sure right but I could

get to the point where I'm so unhealthy

that I hate that about myself because

I'm actually hurting myself but I'm

being controlled by my impulses this

getting in line with your own views and

making a plan and this is where the New

Year's resolutions about taking off the

weight

actually make sense because it's not

about the ab veins it's about being

morally consistent with your own view of

the person person that you want to be is

what this comes down but you can't do it

till you lay it out until you actually

put it in black and white write down

your moral philosophy I don't care how

dumb it is write down your moral

philosophy and say make a plan to start

living according to it that's the base

of the pyramid there's two other parts

okay the second part is a contemplative

tradition is contemplation you need more

contemplation such that you can

experience Transcendence now there's a

bunch of different ways to do this right

um this is why everybody wants to do

mindfulness meditation that's all that

is is basically is sitting still without

your phone and and and and focusing on

being alive so there a lot of ways to do

it there's informal ways to do it my

colleague Ellen Langer if you had her on

the show no super interesting person she

actually was the one who brought the

concept of mindfulness to the West about

30 years ago wow she wrote a book called

mindfulness she's a she was the first

woman tenured in the psychology

department at Harvard she's phenomenal

and she's just absolutely frustra and

and she says that mindfulness is best

practiced if you're sitting on the train

by putting away your phone putting your

hands in your lap and looking out the

window can they listen to this podcast

while they do that because no you should

listen to the podcast but not during

those periods okay and start with five

minutes of a of of just simple

contemplation of life now there are

other ways to do it prayer is a really

good way to do it too religious

Traditions are excellent at doing it but

people in a distracted world don't do

that at all you need to be in your head

you need to stop distracting yourself

and systematically stop distracting

yourself because in your default mode

Network you'll actually start to think

about things that actually matter

including the things that are in the

fundamental moral basis that you've that

you've started to formulate you need

contemplation I was thinking about this

last night I don't know why I was

thinking about this but this is how

weird I am I was thinking about why I

don't pray anymore because I grew up in

a Christian faith until the age of about

18 are you still Christian no and every

time we had dinner for my whole

childhood the family sit around the

table one of us would have would pray

and we'd just basically give thanks for

things we're you know grateful for right

and I stopped praying because I no

longer have the Christian faith but but

I was thinking last night it doesn't

mean I need to give up the prayer which

is just an exercise in gratitude to be

thankful for the nature of my life and

that would serve if and I don't have to

pray to something I can just pray for

gratitude well you can contemplate you

can contemplate the source of your

gratitude so gratitude listing is really

important way for to focus uh on the the

we're resentful creatures because we

have a negativity bias we have a

tendency to pay attention to the

negative things in our lives

disproportionately because that tendency

serves us for survival you know you know

you pay attention to the worst thing

that happened at the dinner not the best

thing that happened to the dinner for a

reason I mean we've evolved to the snap

of The Twig behind you does not make you

think oh bet that's my friend right so

that that's just how we're Revol and the

way to not that let that become all

adapted is for you to contemplate the

sources of your gratitude which are

incredibly abundant now the reason you

stop praying is because you don't

believe there's anybody on the other end

of the line listening yeah yeah you

think that you're it's like the ghost

phone in Japan after the after the the

tsunami the earthquake and tsunami a guy

set up a telephone booth that's not

connected where the phone is not

connected and 30,000 people have gone

and picked up the phone and talk to

their dead

relatives that's the ghost phone and um

that's not satisfying for you with with

respect to prayer because your kid

version of religion was the reason

you're doing that is because you're

talking to God you've got a direct

transmission mechanism to God and now

you don't think that's actually the case

so you stop doing the contemplation

right now it's probably

worth think rethinking an adult version

of your faith as opposed to being put

off by the a lot of people are really

put off by the kid version of their

faith it's like really yeah like all

weird stuff and doesn't make doesn't

make sense but a a

most likely according to the data you're

going to start becoming interested in

your Christian faith again as you get

older it doesn't mean you're going to

have the same faith that you had on the

contrary you probably won't but you'll

start being like you know there's

certain things I miss about that and and

life actually is messy and there is

suffering that's hard to explain but

there's lots of things in life that are

hard to explain and maybe there's

something in there that I didn't

understand before so openness to that

I'm not saying for sure but I'm saying

just be open to it and then the top is

wisdom and that requires reading or or

you

know the accumulation of knowledge not

everybody's a big reader and there's so

many different ways to get good

information at this point pod podcast

for example but the whole point is is

reading or or acquiring information in

the wisdom tradition so uh you know read

the stoic philosophers read the nicomaki

and ethics of Aristotle read the babad

Gita read the Quran read the Bible read

read read and start with 15 minutes a

day of that kind of reading which you

can go years saying I wish I read it and

you don't right I mean it's it's crazy

we'll spend all this time scrolling

Instagram when we could spend just 15

minutes a day reading the meditations of

Marcus

aelius and and the letters of Sena and

they incredibly enriching right it's

like whoa boom starting at 15 minutes a

day so do the work what do I believe

spend some time in contemplation and do

the reading your life's about to change

that's the protocol that's the Tibetan

Buddhist protocol for actually

finding F starting to find meaning in

your life but I've I've prescribed this

to others and I've done it myself and

this really works it helps you find on

the path to the answers to those

questions build the life you

want it's a book it's a book sat in

front of me here that that has your name

on it and who's this Oprah Winfrey I'd

like to give you young authors a leg

up how did you so you co-wrote this book

with Oprah yeah yeah how how did you

meet Oprah she called me turns out she's

a I know it's it's she this is Oprah

Winfrey I'm like yeah I'm Batman I mean

it was Oprah Winfrey The Voice she's

iconic all over the world for sure and

it turns out that she was a regular

reader of my column in the Atlantic on

Thursday mornings how to build a life

which is a different area of the signs

of happiness every week that I cover and

read my last book which is called from

strength to strength finding success

happiness and deep purpose in the second

half of life right so that was a book

she read on the first day it came out

and I went on her Super Soul podcast and

we were thick as thieves just

immediately because we have the same

goals as lift people up and bring him

together in the spirit of happiness and

love she does it differently because

she's not an academic she has incredible

platform I've never seen a platform like

she has where you know she says one

thing and people are like H that's it's

good thing to do but she's always

looking for it's interesting because she

has the money and power and fame and she

uses them she's cracked the code she

uses them in service of other people and

that's her whole goal from the very

beginning she's never said anything to

disabuse me of the idea that that's how

she lives and uh we started doing some

some things together and some podcast

together and she called up and she said

you know if I had my show still she for

25 years she had this iconic show on

television in the United States called

the Oprah win show and millions and

millions of people watched it every day

and went off the air in about 2014 or

something she says if I had my show I'd

have you on 30 times and then you'd have

your show she said but I don't have the

show anymore so let's do kind of a

version of that and let me host a

book and and so we wrote the book

together all over the last winter in the

winter of 2022 2023 I went away to she

lives in mono California I live I went

and got a house in San CL California and

we we structured the thing and you know

at her place and we went back and forth

on the and it was just blast it was

about you know how to manage yourself

and once you're able to manage your own

feelings and emotions like a pro then

you'll no longer be distracted and you

can focus on the things that actually

matter for your life and that's how you

build your life and you you called me um

a mad scientist earlier I'd have to take

the test I think you nailed it I think

you nailed

it most likely yeah a which is that

which appears in your book in the the

section about the unique sort of unique

mix of um Happiness and happiness and

you talk about this panas schore system

what are these categories and why did

you call me a mad scientist so the panis

test is in the book and it's actually on

the website um at Arthur brooks.com

where anybody can take it for free it's

a it's a personality test based on the

intensity of your positive and negative

affect AKA

mood everybody's got more or less the

same emotions everybody feels joy and

interest and surprise and anger and

sadness and disgust and and and fear but

we have them in different intensities

depending on who we are and there's

really four kinds of people with these

different intensities there's some

people that have very high affect High

positive affect they have high highs and

high negative effect effect low lows

these are mad scientists that's a

quarter of the population Now by

construction it's the quar of the

population because it's above average on

both then there are people who are high

highs and

low lows I mean I should say that they

have intense positive emotion but but

weak negative emotion right these are

cheerleaders okay so they have they feel

their positive affect very intensely and

their negative effect effect very weakly

oh okay so they're like always happy

they're not always happy but they tend

to they tend to be in a better mood and

see the brighter side of things they

tend to downgrade threats and think

everything is going to be okay okay

that's a quarter of the population M and

everybody wants to be that by the way

but that's not necessarily the best way

to be and they don't make the best CEOs

because they're they have a hard time

paying attention to threats they don't

want bad news and they have a terrible

time giving bad news or giving people

bad valuations so working for a CEO

who's a cheerleader is great for a

minute but then it starts to become very

frustrating because you hear him telling

the the incompetent idiot in the cubicle

next to you that that she's doing an an

unbelievably good job ah okay so you I

mean you got to be realistic to be a

good I mean you're an entrepreneur you

know perfectly there's lotss of threats

out there you got to take them seriously

yeah yeah yeah so then there are people

who are high negative low positive these

are poets these are people who generally

speaking there's a place in the lyic

system called the ventrolateral

prefrontal cortex that's the part that

makes you a ruminator ruminators are

people who this part of the brain this

this part of the brain is dedicated to

making on problems and negative things

and regret and that I can't believe that

I said that thing I feel so stupid for

saying that thing and what does she

really think of me etc etc it's also the

part of the reing that you use when

you're highly creative comedians yeah

well for sure for sure you know I pal

around with a guy Nam rain Wilson who

was in the American version of the

office he played Dwight and Rain told me

that comedians tend to be depressed but

the reason is because they find out that

they're funny and they can substitute

humor for sadness it's a substitute

emotion it's called a metacognitive

Technique we talk a lot about that in

the book so then poets are they tend to

be high ruminators so high negative

affect they focus a lot of negative

things because of this hyperdeveloped

part of their brains they also tend to

be really creative because that's the

same part of your brain that when you're

working on a business plan or a symphony

and they also tend to be romantic

because infatuation is ruminating on

another person that's kind of the poet

profile right and then last but not

least there's low low people who are low

affect people these are Judges these are

people who they they're happy and

unhappy but they feel their moods less

intensely than other people and so they

they don't freak out you know these are

really good surgeons these are really

good judges they're very good Secret

Service agents you don't want somebody

to cut you open and say oh my God you

you don't want your surgeon to be like

that and so there's a a gift and a role

for all four of these quadrants most

great entrepreneurs are mad scientists

because they they the reason that

they're Entre is because they want to

feel things intensely because everything

is intense and they do everything

intensely right you don't have that many

people who are just like super chill

like

yeah interesting yeah it fits that's why

you just having a deep conversation with

you you I can see that you have a lot of

mad scientific characteristics to you

you feel things deeply is that fair it

is fair yeah I mean that's the one I I

resonate with the most and I do describe

myself as being a bit intense my team

know me I think I'm I think I come

across as a bit intense what's your

girlfriend I'm going to say that she is

a cheerleader a I'm married to a

cheerleader oh really yeah and what you

find is that cheerleaders they can they

can have the best of times but

cheerleaders tend to be struggle with

the mad scientist yeah right it's like

like why like everything's so great for

you why are you gloomy you know it's

like why can't you look in the bright

side of things like why are you grouchy

all the time what's wrong with you Steve

like there's a spelling mistake on our I

know it's like why why is that bothering

you yeah yeah so that's That's a classic

thing everybody can be with everybody

else but the compliments are really

important the biggest mistake that

people make in dating markets is they

look for their their op they look for

the their their doppelganger they look

for their clone you shouldn't look for

your clone you should look for your

compliment why because you'll be happier

when you complete each other that's when

people who complete each other you find

that very happy marriages often happen

between an introvert and an extrovert if

they learn to appreciate each other so

it's not you know hammer and T songs all

the time for the differences but when

people for example one of the reasons

that dating apps are so unsuccessful for

giving people you know satisfactory

dating experiences people have more and

more and more choice but they're more

likely to say they're not satisfied with

the people they're dating and not

attracted to the people that they're

dating it's because they'll set up a

dating profile saying I vote this way I

like this music I live here I like these

things I want somebody with these

preferences and they get somebody who's

their sibling which is as my adult

children will remind me is not

hot difference is hot it's so true

because I never would have said I want

someone that is spiritual um that is

really involved in spirituality and

believes in things that you just can't

see my girlfriend believes in all the

chakras and these energies and she'll

read and she just believes in it all and

it's funny because I never would have

said that's what I wanted but I

absolutely love it and that means that I

actually she's actually pulled me into

her world she's made me more spiritual

she's made me believe in things I never

would have believed before uhhuh and

she's completing me in that regard it's

really great it's really great you mean

you crack the code in that way and

finding all the ways that you're

different and celebrating those

particular differences is really key to

a to a good relationship and not wishing

the person were more like you this is

very important that this is a

relationship killer is that wishing that

your partner were more like you is is

just a form of egotism everyone tries to

change their partner though don't they

yeah well I mean it's interesting it's

like there's there's the old Axiom that

women are frustrated because they

thought they could change their husbands

and they can't and and um h husbands are

frustrated because they thought their

wives would never change and they do I

don't

know there is truth in that

relationships and love how important is

this as a subject for happiness it's the

number one area of interest of my

students really my average student is 28

years old so they're MBA students

they're Master's students they've all

gone through college they've gone to

work and they've come back to the

Harvard Business School you have to have

some business experience to get the

business master's degree and this is the

number one thing they want to talk about

they want to learn about they want to

learn about it scientifically they want

toar learn about the neurochemical

Cascade of what's actually happening in

your brain and at what point you can't

control it anymore we have a lot of case

studies at the business school about you

know CEOs who were dismissed for

inappropriate relationships with

subordinates I mean it's a classic theme

you know it's I and the last line of the

case study is I was the the CEO looking

out the window of the train after being

dismissed going I don't know what

happened yeah and so we look at brain

scans and say this is what happened and

you can see it in the brain kind of I

mean that somebody who's really in love

uh has you brain activity it looks an

awful lot like a methamphetamine addict

brain scan I mean your brain is if

you're at a certain point in the falling

love process your brain is captured so I

mean at the beginning when people meet

there's a there's a a hormonal um

reaction with testosterone and estrogen

which are you know sex hormones

obviously and you know when people see

somebody who's really attractive that's

why they they want to look attractive

because that's the that's the ignition

mechanism that typically happens after

that you see a big uh increase in in

noradrenaline AKA nor um epinephrine and

dopamine level so you have anticipation

of reward and Euphoria that's sort of

the second line of things that tend to

happen in this chemical Cascade that's

going on when you're falling in love

after that you see a dip in serotonin

which is really interesting so serotonin

we think about as the as the neurom

modulator of of peace and happiness

which is what a lot of the psychiatric

drugs are trying to manipulate when when

they feel that it's an imbalance so

people who are clinically depressed will

often get selective serotonin reuptake

Inhibitors meaning you maintain a higher

level of Serotonin and that's all really

controversial still I mean because we

don't really understand that very well

but we do know that when people are

falling in love that they're more likely

to be ruminative and infatuated remember

that part of the brain the ventrolateral

prefrontal cortex that does rumination

it'll be more active when serotonin is

low and so serotonin will be low so you

start ruminating on the other person

that's when the infatuation part of the

relationship really kicks in and then

you get to the point of attachment which

is which is invol which involves

oxytocin which is a neuropeptide that

functions as a hormone that makes you

attached to the other person very

profoundly attached to the other person

that's intensely pleasurable so it's

like and the longer you let it go the

harder it is for your brain not to be

really really captured you wouldn't go

to a methamphetamine addict and say why

did you buy methamphetamine that's

illegal they' be like I'm an I'm an

addict I'm a junkie it's the same thing

as when somebody's sleeping with a

subordinate are people that are in love

in in relationships happier

statistically no on the contrary because

being in love especially in the early

stages of being in love is not

associated with what we would associate

with actual happiness because it has

jealousy tons of jealousy which is you

know the rumination part when your

serotonin levels are really low it's

hard for you to say ah I feel so great

you feel euphoric and you like it in its

own way but if you kept that if you

stayed in that stage you'd go out of

your mind and you'd be miserable because

there's jealousy there's surveillance

behaviors are really common and you know

this there's no nobody would say that

when I'm surveilling my intimate partner

that's when I'm

happiest nobody likes that but but

people tend to do that because you're

there's a lot of your brain is basically

saying I'm trying to figure out if this

is somebody who's going to betray me

back to evolution is this somebody who's

going to wander off and raise somebody

else's kids is this somebody who's going

to be when I don't know it carrying

somebody else's baby which is how men

and women actually they tend to express

sexual jealousy in those two interesting

there's a guy at um University of Texas

at Austin that studies jealousy the most

jealousy provoking thing for men is an

image of their intimate partner having

sex with somebody else for women it's an

image of their intimate partner saying I

love you to somebody else and the reason

is because traditionally or

evolutionarily women have to be worried

that their partner is going to take go

take care of somebody else's children

and men have to be worried that they're

not the actual father of the children

which According to some estimates is 15%

of paternity which is misattributed

worldwide makes sense that's a

lot no it makes sense well so

fortunately my kids look like me yeah I

one that's adopted she doesn't look like

me this idea in chapter four of your

book of focusing Less on yourself leads

to happiness how can you prove that's

the case so there's a there's a lot of

experimental tests that actually show

this using human subjects and so one of

the classic uh experiments there's these

guys at at Northwestern there's a

fabulous social psychologist named Adam

weights I don't know if you've had him

on your show before he's a really

impressive and Innovative social

psychologist he did a an experiment

where he took the undergraduate students

you always use the undergraduate pool at

your University because they'll do

literally anything for 20 bucks and and

and he put them into three groups one

had to do moral Deeds they had to do

random acts of kindness one had to do

moral thoughts they had to sit and think

beautiful thoughts about other people

and one had to do self focus sort of

self-care things go do something

something that really makes you feel

good and they looked at their happiness

over you know a series of weeks with

these interventions and we they found

that moral Deeds were happier than moral

thoughts and moral thoughts were happier

than self-care that's what they found in

other words you and again this this is

basically showing the same thing that

you know I did research for years and

years and years about happiness and

sharable giving if you're lonely the

most important thing you can do is

volunteer just is if you give money away

statistically you're more likely to make

more money next year incredible

investment strategy and the reason is

because you see yourself as an agent of

of positive change you're empowered when

you're helping other people you when you

give love you get love that's the bottom

line is what it comes down to and so all

of these experiments find kind of the

same thing if you put uh you know two

groups randomly selected of people um

one group is playing board games and the

other is helping you know sixth graders

with their math the ones helping sixth

graders with their math will have a mood

boost for days afterward I mean this is

just helping other people helps you not

focus on the Psycho Drama inside Steve's

head and it makes it so that life

actually has a Transcendent aspect to it

you get perspective you get peace and

furthermore you get empirical

confirmation that you are that person

that you want to be is happiness or

negativity contagious yes that's

emotional contagion there's a lot of

literature on emotional contagion it's a

virus it's a mind virus negativity is a

virus negativi is a virus but so is POS

positivity that you can actually so you

find that you know when I go into

companies which I do a lot these days I

do a lot of Happiness teaching inside

you know executive teams and

corporations and when I walk into a

company I can I can I can pretty quickly

ascertain which virus is going around

you know this is why the mood and

emotional well-being and emotional

self-management of CEOs is so critically

important because you know everybody's

like oh the bosses the boss is having a

hard time today though I think a boss

got yelled at this morning at breakfast

or whatever it happens to be because the

they can see it and the result is it

tends to the virus tends to pass around

a this sucks attitude is horrible inside

families and we see it and it will

transmit from one person to one person

to another person to another person

that's why it's hard to live with a high

negative affect person that's why

because High negative affect people will

spread a negativity virus even if you

live down the street well it depends on

how much contact you have with that

person and so you know that's why you

want your kids to hang out with positive

friends that's why would you you'll when

you have your kids and when my kids were

little they would have that one friend

who's like happy all the time you love

that kid you have the one kid who's just

bummed out all the time you're like I

don't want my kid to be around that

because that that infects the attitudes

of of the of your children in the book

you say living within a mile of a friend

or family member who becomes happier

makes you 25% likelier to become happier

too if you have contact with that person

obviously it it's not going to transmit

just through the air it's not you know

it's not the Corona virus but uh but you

have to have contact with the person but

you know and the way that they they

measured that that's called the

Framingham heart study which was out in

fra that's a suburb of Boston but for

many many many years they were looking

at the trajectory of people's lives to

look at heart you know issues but then

they started measuring everything else

and they found for example that obesity

is highly is is is very easy to catch

when your friends become obese you

become more obese that when your friends

get divorced you're more likely to get

divorced that when your friends get

happy you're more likely to get happy is

what we see and and and the more

proximity that they have to you measured

geographically or in terms of the

intimacy of the relationship the

stronger the transmission mechanism I

think a lot about that and how we take

on other people's problems when they're

friends and family um what you say to

that and does it matter that we take on

other people's problems sort of I mean

that's there's a big distinction between

empathy and compassion so the best way

to be a parent or a partner or a friend

is to be compassionate and that's not

the same thing as empathy our society

overvalues empathy empathy is feeling

somebody else's pain that's Tak taking

on their problems the worst parents of

teenagers are empathetic or highly

empathetic people it's like yeah I feel

your pain why because you're not

actually helping you got to do things

that that that you know I may feel your

pain but I can't be I can't be paralyzed

by that on the contrary I got to do hard

things you're not going to like son

that's what being it that's the reason

we always say you're not his friend

you're his dad you know and that's means

be compassionate don't be empathetic the

same thing is true with the big level I

mean I I would argue that our our

welfare systems in our countries are

need to be more compassionate um as

opposed to Simply empathetic and you

know that's and that we could actually

help people a lot more too being

compassionate means being hard as steel

and doing the things that people

actually need because you love them not

just because you're actually feeling

their pain so in our families we need to

say what does this person that I love

actually need notwithstanding the

feelings that they're transmitting to me

and sometimes that means you got to care

for your own happiness like they say in

the plane put on your own oxygen mask

first take care of your own happiness so

you're not you're not getting this

negativity virus all the time being

paralyzed by somebody else's pain you're

not going to help him enough no it's

almost never well I mean there there are

cases when somebody is just a Schism but

I I only recommend pican family Schism

when there's abuse and you know somebody

being unhappy is not abuse political

differences really not abuse those are

that's a it's like one in six Americans

in this country is not speaking to a

family member because of Pol political

differences that's insane that's simply

insane that doesn't not count as any

good reason to do that unless there's

actual abuse quick one if you guys have

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happier introverts or extroverts yes so

extroverts is the classic finding tons

of studies sign find that extroverts

have more positive affect they have

higher they tend to have higher mood but

introverts have special gifts they have

closer

relationships they have deeper emotional

connections to other people and the

result of that is that they have

long-term friendship and Marriage

Partners that sustain them in a way that

extroverts don't extroverts often get

can get really lonely because they are

you an extrovert it's such an

interesting question because you might

not be even though you're a mad

scientist I don't think I am do you get

when you're at a party do you find that

you get exhausted I looked at Jackie's

know me many many years five years I'm

an introvert I just want to be alone so

when you're at a party do you find that

it sucks energy out of you I don't go to

the party certainly your Baseline is

introversion but you have extroverted

characteristics because you're able to

do good entrepreneurs know how to be

extroverts when they need to be which is

important and you run a podcast if

you're a true introvert it's like I got

to meet Arthur Brooks what a pain no I

like deep conversations I don't like

small talk yeah yeah you do you have

close friends oh yeah the same five guys

i' I've known years that you've known

since College yeah basically no others

other than this slot here who I consider

friends but the same five that I've

known for 12 12 years they're real

friends not deal friends no they're real

friends they were there when I was

shoplifting pizzas to feed myself same

Five Guys so that's interesting and and

but so extroverts they tend to get more

shortterm happiness and introverts tend

to have more long-term happiness so what

you find is that extroverts they tend to

get more enjoyment and and introverts

tend to get more meaning metacognition

you used this word earlier on when we

were talking about happiness it sounds

like almost an antidote to unhappiness

in respects what is metacognition

explain this like I'm a 10-year-old yeah

okay so metacognition simply means

thinking about your thinking and taking

more time as you react to your emotions

that's what metacognition is all about

so theot are produced in the lyic system

of the brain an ancient part of the

brain you react to them and decide what

they mean in the prefrontal CeX the sea

Suite of your head that takes time those

are not the same place you need to

experience your emotions in your

conscious executive brain which is the

part the front the part of the front the

bumper of tissue right behind your

forehead so when your kids are little

when your kids are 10 and they're

freaking out about something you don't

say don't be so limic you say use your

word

what you're saying is be metacognitive

allow yourself to explain this thing

that you're feeling and in so doing

you're using your prefrontal cortex as

opposed to relying on the lyic tissue of

your brain so write it down would be an

example writing externally is phenomenal

classic case so you're anxious yeah

anxiety is unfocused fear that's what it

is fear was adapted in in the human

species so that to be episodic and

intense the way that fear is supposed to

work is that something happens it alarms

you it illuminates the igala of your

brain that sends a signal through the

hypothalamus to the pituitary gland

which then signals the adrenal gland

sitting above the kidneys to spit out

stress hormones this happens in 74

milliseconds of the the perception of a

threat in you know the occipital lobe of

your brain where you're you know your

visual cortex exists boom this thing

happens really really quick this is and

saved your life many many times

thousands of times you know because you

live in London and you can get run over

at any given second it's crazy well

actually because I'm looking the wrong

direction for oncoming traffic that's my

problem there so so that's how that's

how that works is the whole point so

fear is supposed to work that way very

episodic very occasional the problem in

Modern Life is that we have all of these

vague threats that are happening that

are kind of half Illuminating our our

amydala which is giving us a little drip

of cortisol into our brain all the time

and that's unfocused and freaking us out

so the way to actually solve that

problem metacognitive is say okay okay I

got to focus it take out a piece of

paper number one number one thing that

I'm afraid of right now that's actually

giving me this anxiety that's giving me

this discomfort write it down why is it

happening what's the worst thing that

can happen and what would I do if that

happened and you literally moving the

thing experience from the amydala which

is the emotional Center to the

prefrontal cortex which is The Logical

which is that's for your SE suite and

that should kill the anxiety it will it

greatly attenuate the anxiety it will

turn it into a logical kind of fear

that's the right reaction to these

threats and it will change your life so

if you do that if you're experiencing a

lot of

anxiety you know unfocused fear focus it

every day for 10 minutes write it down I

have a I have a I'm a very anxious

person I have a running list of the

things that I'm afraid of a running list

I have lots and lots of lists I keep

lots of lists because journaling is so

critically important I also have a

failure list what are you afraid of I'm

afraid of failure I'm afraid of failing

I'm a total striver from the very

beginning failing what's what does what

would failure look like I know that's

the thing it's an unfocused fear and so

when I write it down and I focus it I go

oh yeah it's true you know that's that's

the point so it's failure is a spectre

for Strivers it's a kind of a when you

look at it it goes away yeah yeah but

when you're not looking at it it's there

and part of the reason is because your

self-image is one of somebody who's

successful so you're self- objectifying

as a successful person you're success

addicted meaning the vental item of your

brain gets tapped every time somebody

says Steve you got another 7 million

downloads or something that is not

inherently meaningful in that particular

way because the metric is actually what

Taps your ventral stum again and again

and again and so then if that's going in

the wrong direction and you're not

making progress then that sort of feels

somehow not successful which means that

things are going in the wrong direction

and that's just like this

fantasm right it's like and so okay

focus it focus it look at it poof

right disappears it doesn't entirely

disappear it turns into what it really

is which is a mouse not a

lion oh your book is fantastic I mean we

could talk for for so long because

there's so much more in it there's some

of the unb unbelievable stats that I was

reading about around social media and

this one St about um a study showing

that teens who texted more often than

their peers experienced more depression

anxiety and relationship and po

relationships the other things about

laughter and that you can feel 35%

happier um using some humor therapy all

of these things gratitude all of these

things that we haven't haven't covered

but they're all in this fantastic

fantastic book which is so unbelievably

accessible for someone that as smart as

you Oprah had okay oh okay right okay

yeah and I thank you for that because

happiness is a complex thing and I think

there's an industry out there that are

trying to simplify it and put it down to

three steps to happiness or one this one

secret to happiness one weird trick

don't gra you know whatever but your

approach provides the nuance and the

complexity that the subject matter

deserves and I think that offers us a

towards being happier as you talk about

in the book um that's why I wrote it I

wrote it for you oh it actually reads

like you wrote it for me that's the kind

of but I imagine everyone that reads

it's is going to feel that way um I

highly recommend everybody goes and gets

this book ASAP it's a really really

beautiful book as well it's so beautiful

um we have a closing tradition on this

podcast where the last guest leaves a

question for the next guest not knowing

who they're leaving it

for what are we supposed to do about the

things that we cannot control what is

your opinion on this

the things that we can't control are

virtually all outside

ourselves we have to accommodate

ourselves to the fact that we live in a

world where there are many things that

we can't control and focus on the things

that we can how do we deal with things

that we can't control by refocusing our

attention on the parts of our life that

we actually can thus giving us agency

and giving us a sense of peace and

perspective about the truly

uncontrollable ala thank you so much so

wonderful to meet you you've energized

me this morning and we started pretty

early for me this is super early know

it's apprciate it I appreciate it so

much thank you Steve it's wonderful to

be with you I've admired you for such a

long time I get to meet you in person

it's been a joy that means the well to

me someone is uh profound and as smart

as you to say that to me means a ton so

thank you so much Arthur from the bottom

of my heart really really appreciate it

thank you you too thank

[Music]

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[Music]

it