Cal Newport: The Secrets of Slow Productivity

hello and welcome back to Deep dive the

podcast where it's my immense pleasure

to sit down with entrepreneurs academics

creators authors and other inspiring

people and we find out how they got to

where they are and the strategies and

tools we can learn from them to help

build a life that we love what you're

about to hear is a wonderful if I say so

myself conversation between me and the

amazing Cal Newport this was the first

time Cal and I were meeting in real life

we've been internet buddies for a while

uh we have blured each other's books

have we blured each other yep we have

blurbed each other's books and he has

recently released an absolute Bang of a

book called slow productivity the Lost

Art of accomplishment without burnout in

this conversation we talk about the

concept of deep work we talk about

productivity principles that overwhelmed

people can use to apply to their life

not just if you're an entrepreneur but

also if you have a normal corporate day

job or if you're a student for example

and we talk a lot about how the concepts

of slow productivity can help us have

more of a chill relationship with life

but also weirdly be more productive

because we're not trying to do all of

this stuff and be super overwhelmed with

all the things that we're doing but

instead taking a lower more relaxed

approach to meaningful accomplishment

anyway I hope you enjoy this interview

with Cal neport as much as I did Cal

neport welcome to the podcast hey it's

good to see you we meet in person for

the first time I know I feel like we've

been talking for a long time we've done

each other's shows but uh for the first

time been following your blog since like

2012 uh Adventure studying all all the

stuff oh that's an Insider reference

right there yeah I love it 2012 is kind

of recent though right because that

thing goes all the way back to 2007 so

you could get the real oh yeah you the

old

yeah I think I trolled through about

catalog to figure out has Cal said

anything like 20 years ago that I can

make a YouTube video about like students

today may not have heard of so I've I've

done the the trolling through the

archives I'll tell you what's

interesting about that though by the way

is so when that blog started it was all

student advice because the books I wrote

early on were for students in my memory

was oh for years that blog uh was

student advice right and then like

eventually as I got closer to my first

non-student book in 2012 it shifted over

I went back recently to read the archive

it student advice for like a year I

didn't realize how early I began talking

about things like follow your passion is

bad advice what's going on with careers

deep work I didn't have that term I

called it hard Focus back then it was a

lot earlier than I thought so so I guess

I had sort of moved on from the student

stuff uh my mind had moved on earlier

than I realized because you know I

didn't actually publicly move on in my

books for years later so it was an

interesting surprise to go back um

revisiting a bit of an old classic why

is following your passion bad advice oh

man wrote a whole book about this yeah

yeah we we've we've done a whole video

about it as well yeah well now it's the

big thing I think a lot of people talk

about it the latest is I think Scott

Galloway has been talking about this in

his new book and Mark juen talked about

this uh so let me just set the context

though like why I was writing about that

was I was finishing up academic work

right so I gone to grad school got my

PhD was doing the a postto which is like

the holding pattern before you go on the

academic job market right I had this

thought if I was ever going to

understand what leads people to really

love their work this would be the the

highest leverage point in my life to

figure that out because if I go on this

academic route that the momentum was

going towards that's it that's job for

life right it's like okay I I want to

make sure I really understand this

question of how people love their work

so it that's what motivated the book so

I look into the question the first

answer that comes up everywhere back

then at least was follow your passion

right so I look into that like okay so

why do we think this is true the whole

thing is nonsense right we we think this

is some wisdom that you know Plato wrote

about and then you know Thomas aquinus

then talked about and the founding

fathers and it's this old piece of

advice no if you go back and look at the

emology the phrase follow your passion

is from the early 1990s oh wow okay it's

like a very new idea right this was not

the way we thought about careers I was

the first generation because I I went

through school in the 90s graduated went

to college in like 2000 right I was the

first generation to be told this so it's

not ancient advice right in fact ancient

advice is much more different about how

to actually build a life of meaning or

do work of meaning right so the advice

was new so I looked at a little further

do we have scientific evidence that says

yeah when you match a pre-existing

inclination with your occupation your

happier no none of that research exists

what does exist if you study the

research literature on job satisfaction

is way more more General traits like do

I have autonomy do I have a sense of

Mastery in my work am I connected to

other people in my work do I feel like

my work is important and none of these

have to do with matching your job to a

really specific passion so then I said

okay why is everyone giving this advice

and so I started tracking down the

backstories of famous people who had

famously said Follow Your Passion nine

times out of 10 it's not what they did

right they stumbled into whatever they

ended up doing and it trans formed into

a passion so all this evidence came

together and I said this is nonsense

passion is great you don't start with it

you're probably not wired for a

particular job that happens to exist in

the 21st century knowledge economy

there's probably not a gene that you

inherited that said you were meant to be

a brand manager for like an athletic

apparel company based out of whatever

right uh so that's not that's not how

you end up passion about your work you

cultivate passion and and the more I

looked into it the more it became clear

uh you good at something as you get

better at something you get more control

over your life and your career and then

you got to take that control for a spin

and that's when you really begin

crafting your working life over time

into something that really resonates

right so the passion is cultivated the

passion is grown you want to end up

passionate about your work but if you're

22 and saying let me figure out now what

I'm supposed to do and if I just figure

that out and match that to my job I'll

be happy from here on out it's a Disney

fairy tale what about natural

inclinations in the sense that you know

uh Visionary versus operator or you know

systems people versus big idea people

you know that sort of idea where does

that fit into this into this thing

around well it matters right uh because

ultimately what you're trying to do is

if you get good at something you get

control so you want to say what

advantages do I already have uh pushing

me towards getting good at something

right so if you've already been training

for something well let's keep that in

mind because I've already done a lot of

work for this if you feel like you have

an inclination towards a certain type

typ of thing you're very technical okay

it's probably going to be easier for you

to get really good at something in a

technical field right maybe you have

some sort of uh family connection to

whatever hey let's not ignore that right

I mean this whatever is going to get me

quicker towards being good at something

that's valuable uh is what I want to

care about so what I often say it's

about lowering the threshold right so

Follow Your Passion the threshold is

find your one true passion and if you

miss you're screwed right I'm learn to

threshold to there's a lot of things you

could probably cultivate into uh a

really passionate professional life

there's a lot of things not everything

for sure right but there's probably a

lot of things the the hard part is not

finding one of those things it's what

you do once you choose it it's the work

you do for the next 10 years so you know

I'm not throwing a dart at a job listing

board and saying I guess that's what I'm

going to do but I'm also not super

fedding that if I don't make this Choice

exactly right I'm going to be in trouble

if it's like this seems interesting to

me I have an inclination for this it

looks like there would be a lot of

flexibility and opportunities if I got

good at this be like that's good enough

that's good enough now let's do the hard

work of actually cultivating passion

here nice okay so um yeah so the first

book of yours I read was so good they

can't can't ignore you and very much

vibed with the message and then the next

book of yours I read was deep work yeah

um where it's it seems like so many

people that that word has really seeped

into the world and do you have a sense

of how many people know that you

originated that word versus it's just

part of English vocabulary now oh that's

a good question I mean that was my goal

for sure is I wanted that that piece of

vocabulary to spread because my thought

was more important than any particular

piece of advice was just people

separating deep work from non- Deep work

and like once you recognize deep workk

is very important then people can kind

of figure out oh I'm not doing a lot

about this how do I do more of this

what's happening in my job I mean I give

advice in that book obviously but the

variety of what people are actually

doing is much greater than that so like

that was my goal

I don't know how many people associate

it with me it shows up in weird places

there's a menu somewhere in Microsoft

Outlook where it's it's not a deep work

option but there's a little explanation

for like a focus mode option and it says

to support deep work so it's kind of

floating around in there I don't know if

I haven't got my royalty check on that

yet uh I do hear people say it I people

often attributed to me I mean here's the

thing about that book um it came out

quiet right like I published that book

super

disappointed it it just it didn't have a

lot of uh Buzz around it when it came

out they had lowered my advance for that

book versus so good they can't ignore

you because like so good they can't

ignore you didn't do great at the time

uh and so they had lowered the advance

the book came out I I was I was thinking

because I I didn't understand publishing

back then right so what I knew was I was

like this is a killer idea so why is

this not being promoted everywhere and

spread everywhere and you know my agent

sat me down and was like that's not how

it works it's what did your last book do

like that's what's going to matter and

your last book didn't take off right

away so like they're not going to put as

much into this and because I was really

upset I had a friend who his family went

to pick it up from a bookstore they're

not even carrying it on publication week

right I was like I'm kind of down with

this and then quietly in the background

at some point they're like you know this

is kind of selling never on a bestseller

list has never been on a bestseller list

like this is just kind of selling oh

it's still kind of selling oh then more

people were talking about it and then

more people were inviting me to come on

their podcast and it was just this

really interesting Slow Burn where there

was no one point where I realized like

oh this book is doing really well but I

look back now that thing's closing in on

like two million copies oh nice yeah

it's just it's been out there without

ever having been on a bestseller list

yeah yeah and I imagine the people who

have read the book are like a a zillion

X lower than the people who use the word

and know what the word means that's

probably

true yeah you know the the most

interesting person I heard use it was on

the Tim Ferris podcast years ago Jamie

Fox I I'm sure he has no idea who I am

or that I wrote it but I was like okay

my work here is done so um being able to

cultivate time for deep focused work

this is something I struggle with yeah

you and I are vaguely in similar sort of

careers sort of you've got the academic

thing going I sort of have the business

thing I guess on the side which it keeps

occupied some percentage of our time

yeah really I guess one thing I often

think is oh man I wish I had more time

in my life for deep work yeah um any any

tips for what you know about me and this

this career that that we're both in yeah

maybe a slower definition of

productivity see what I did there I'm

connecting it I'm connecting it back to

my work I mean I think to me and this is

the research that kind of win this slow

productivity uh overload is the the the

key villain here right so like every

active project that you're working on is

going to necessarily bring with it

overhead right like we have to talk

about it we have to have meetings about

it we have to have emails about it which

isn't bad like projects require

collaboration I'm more and more realized

the problem then is when we aggregate

too many of those projects because all

that overhead adds up right so if

there's six different active projects

going on it's really really difficult to

find time for deep work because that's

six projects worth of administrative

overhead that all just overlap now right

and it's all all competing for the same

time so I've really never found a better

General solution than reducing the

number of things that I'm working on

yeah which which I'm like you I mean I I

have so many interesting ideas and

opportunities and so I don't know if you

do this I go cyclical right so I'll I'll

have a bunch of ideas I'll start doing

things and then I get really overloaded

like this is not good I can't do deep

work anymore and then I really scale

back and then I get bored and then I

start like adding things back in So my

last overload was pandemic right so like

pandemic hits I start to get kind of in

a entrepreneurial hustle mode because

look I'm a professor and a writer right

uh in those early months of the pandemic

it was are the University's going to

shut down like I mean it would they were

we have to freeze parts of your pay

because you know the money wasn't coming

in and then at the same time there's all

these rumors that the publishing

industry was going to start climing back

uh advances and like slashing and and

that you know Barnes & Noble was going

to go out of business and all this type

of stuff and so I went into a mode of I

got to get more irons in the fire I

gotta whatever and then you fast forward

a year and a half and I'm like oh no oh

like I have too much I can't the

overhead so that's the killer the

projects are awesome

it's the overhead that comes with the

projects that that adds up so you either

reduce the number of projects or uh you

find a way with the projects you have

you have to be really careful about

controlling that admin overhead like

this is when we talk about it this is

the processes for like where the

information goes like you have to

liberate those Pro those those projects

from just send me a message when you

need something let's just have a ad hoc

back and forth communication to figure

things out so you either have to get

super structured or you have to simplify

yeah yeah yeah is uh there was a time I

think last year before your book had

come out uh you had done a casual

episode on Tim Ferris I mean to the

degree that any episode on Tim F is

casual but it's like the book hadn't

quite come out and you were like

exploring the idea of slow slow

productivity yeah and you mentioned this

the this overhead thing and it it sort

of clicked something in me where where I

realized kind of like in in in physics

you know like parallel versus series

circuits it's like you assume a parallel

circuit is actually better because like

oh if I have these three things than

doing all through at the same time yeah

the whole like consistency thing you

know I thought that the best way to

write a book is work on it a little bit

each day yeah and if you work on the

book a little bit each day and work on

your YouTube videos a little bit each

day and work on the business a little

bit each day surely everything gets done

yeah no it doesn't like basically zero

gets done and instead what I found super

helpful was doing things in series

rather than parallel Yep this week I'm

just going to intensely focus on just

the book and then I'm going to forget

about it and then next week is I'm going

to Bach some YouTube videos and then

next week I'm going to work on the

product and then go back to the book

yeah and even that it was sort of felt

annoying because I what I really wanted

to do was I'm just going to not make

YouTube videos until I finish this book

yeah but then the business would have

died and so it's like I I've been trying

over time to figure out what is the

absolute minimum well what's what what

is the minimum number of the maximum

number of projects that I have to have

going at any one time yeah and how do I

just limit it to those things so once I

do one thing then I move on to another

Well actually that's that's a really

good strategy I was actually just

talking about something like this the

event I was at before this because I was

talking to actually a corporate crowd um

who had a lot of work they they tended

to have a lot of work put on their plate

that they couldn't say no to yeah so

it's an interesting case so what do we

do about that and what I was advising

they do is they said okay so you have

this list of things you have to do uh

write them down now let's put at the

head of the list a a small section that

we call Active it's like okay these are

the things I'm actively working on right

now everything else let's sort and call

that waiting Y and what you're going to

tell everyone and what you're going to

do is only work on the active things

right and that means like that's what

you're sending emails about having

meetings about if it's not on the active

list you're not you're not dealing with

it and as you finish an active thing you

can pull something else from the waiting

list to have something new so you only

have one to three active things right uh

and I said look this works really well

because uh you're only generating admin

overhead from a small number of things

so you've agreed to all these things but

you've you've neutralized the admin

overhead also be super transparent about

this I told him put it in a Google doc

and show everybody here's your thing

it's position seven and like as soon as

it gets pulled in the active I will let

you know I'm like I'm all in on this

right now like call me this is what I'm

doing this week like let's get into it

like let's get this done like people

know you have your act together and so

then they ask like well what about we

have really big projects sometimes like

it's going to take a whole year and the

answer is yeah you have to break it into

these smaller things and use these

smaller chunks with the same method I

think that's what you were doing right

and it's not right it's not great in the

sense that it's not what your mind wants

to do because it's not really the right

way is what you said and by right way I

mean the human brain has evolved right

is probably I obsessed about this book

till it's done I'm obsessed with making

these YouTube videos until like the

season is over or whatever like that's

probably the right way to do it but

taking a chunk one chunk at a time and

just doing that chunk that's sort of

like the best compromise because at the

very least during that week you're not

in the impossible micro situation of

having to jump back and forth between 10

things and because it's just impossible

yeah uh the macro switching is still

frustrating yeah but at least the work

gets done but yes that's a little I mean

I feel the same way I mean all I want to

do when I write is just write and I can

get away with about three months of that

I take the Summers so like I can do

about three months of just writing and

nothing else but I need more than three

months to to finish a book so like I'm

happy for three months of my book

writing yeah how how are you thinking of

that in relation to your podcast now and

I guess the the the YouTube channel

which seems to be blowing up yeah so the

podcast gets a half day a week oh that

was the was the the the agreement I made

with myself when I finally started a

podcast in in 2020 was it gets a half

day a week so to develop it it's going

to be slow slow productivity it's going

to be slow because I have to figure out

what I'm doing you know get good at what

I'm doing first before I can do

something else and if I want to if I

want to add more it has to fit within a

half week right so for me that meant it

starts simpler um and then I finally

could make enough money from

advertisements to have a producer and

now the producer can take these things

off my plate late so now I can spend

more time on that and then finally we're

like okay we can we want to do video but

it's got to fit within a half day a week

okay how are we going to do this well

we're going to have to set up this video

rig and here's the people who are going

to work on it and here's the pipeline

and I don't ever want to see a video

editing piece of software or anything

ever right it it we have this pipeline

figured out um and it's we we can't do X

Y or Z for video which would be better

for the YouTube channel because that

would take too much time so what we can

do is take the video straight from the

podcast and put it out there and then

over time we're like you know YouTube

doesn't really love that it's like okay

we're able to bring on someone now who

can work on the video produced by the

podcast and figure out how to like where

to start and what thumbnail to put on

but all of it was slow because the

podcast couldn't get more than a half

day a week so I treat the podcast more

like a service obligation as opposed to

uh a one-time project I'm trying to do

and I I treat those two things

differently because I'm always going to

be doing the podcast so now I have to

really contain it and understand it and

control its footprint so that it cannot

expand beyond that footprint but like a

book chapter is different it's like I

got to get this done it's best that I

just focus focus on this as hard as I

can till it's finished yeah nice yeah

I've landed on a similar conclusion with

my YouTube channel in that it gets one

day a week yeah so fascinating yeah so

most Wednesdays except today where where

it's tomorrow so tomorrow is filming day

all day yeah where Tintin our producer

will come in in the morning at 9: a.m

with a coffee and

we'll chat [ __ ] for about an hour and

then we'll film a video and and the

video will be prepped there and then he

will he will have rocked up with some

tit and thumbnail ideas we may have some

research that a researcher has done but

broadly I'll sit down with a title

that's given to me and I'm like okay how

would I teach this topic yeah and then I

draw some stuff on a whiteboard or

whatever and then I hit record and I

talk yeah then we go out for lunch and

we come back and we do another video and

we get two videos done in a day and it's

a really fun day it's fairly chill yeah

and the YouTube channel is is like still

growing with with that method this is

the opposite of Mr Beast oh yeah yeah

he's like I'm going to spend the next

month building some crazy thing I by the

way I love the same day prep I do the

same thing right I think there's a lot

of energy in it yeah it's like like I

vaguely have an idea of like here's a

topic we're going to do but yeah I come

in I go to my studio and it's like let's

prep it takes like 90 minutes you know

my my producer pulls the questions and

stuff like that and but yeah I love the

energy of let's figure out what we're

going to say o this is good press play

like let's let's like write it with it

okay but it pro I'm assuming it took you

I mean you you've probably evolved this

whole process over time right like

someone if they were new to making

YouTube videos couldn't jump straight

into this process I'm assuming you

figured out what's the pipeline like who

needs to edit what what type of things

work what prep matters what prep has

been a waste of time it's that like sort

of evolution I'm assuming we've run the

entire gamut all the way from me

spending five days seven days a week

working on YouTube videos and word for

word writing scripts bullet points

what's the difference what was the

difference for your channel between

seven days a week and bullet point

scripts and the one day a week two

videos a week you're doing now

um basically none this is this is kind

of this is kind of the key Point yeah

this is kind of the key point is uh yeah

activity doesn't by default alchemize

into results right this the thing like I

get this question a lot in our in our

YouTuber Academy where people are like

okay you know only saying make one video

a week but what if I spend more time

making higher quality videos isn't that

better and I'm like yes in the yes

that's true if more time actually leads

to a better quality video which is

like you know our highest performing one

one of our highest performing videos of

all time we put out about a month ago

and I had a

conversation at a friend's birthday

party with a dude who was asking me some

questions about how to get rich yeah the

following day I thought hm let me talk

about this on camera I hit record no

prep boom we got a million views in like

a week and I was like what yeah zero

prep and videos that we painstakingly

prepared for six months with a whole

producer and whole research team have

gotten a fraction of the views yeah

there's just like no Rhyme or Reason to

yeah activity and outcome well it's what

I like about I don't know if it's your

YouTube Academy or maybe some the videos

you did about like how to be a

professional or just be a YouTuber what

I liked I was watching that what I like

is how much of it is um yeah you have to

train how to be like how to be on camera

you got to get just practice it's you

know it's not the like here you're gonna

come up with like the magic idea and

then you're guaranteed to succeed it's

like no it takes time it's you got you

got to keep doing things but things that

take time that you have to keep doing

are not conducive with overload

right like a lot of things this reminds

me of Steve Martin's Memoir right his

born standing up his which is very

influential to me uh it's where I got

the term so good they can't ignore you

for that the book about don't follow

your passion that's a Steve Martin quote

right oh when is that is that when

someone asked him how do I get an agent

or some [ __ ] like that like Charlie Rose

Charlie Rose asked Steve Martin like

what advice do you not like being asked

about or whatever and he said the thing

everyone asked me is how do I get ahead

in the entertainment industry and

everyone thinks I'm going to tell them

like here's how you get the right age in

or here's how you pick the next project

he says no what I always tell them and

they don't want to hear it is be so good

they can't ignore you that's Steve

Martin Charlie Rose 2007 right it's like

this this like classic quote um and he

his book I reread it recently 10 years

right I actually had a whole chapter in

my book I cut but just sort of

indulgently because I like Steve Martin

I I wrote a really long sort of story of

his rise and how did he become the

biggest comedian in the world it took

about 10 years um and you know he talks

about in the book that he was diligent

and what he means by Dil was not just

doing the work but saying no to the

other things would get in the way of the

work but when you're doing that type of

push like it's going to take me years to

master this but the rewards are going to

be great there is no reason to be

overloaded because you can't be

overloaded for 10 years you can't like

uh do the comedy five times faster you

can't do I'm GNA do five shows a night

instead of one like this stuff takes

time right like what's often

relentlessness is needed for things but

relentlessness is not about it's not

super stress stressful it doesn't make

you super busy it's this uh ability to

return I'm just going to do this again

and again and again bring in feedback

adjust try to do better take another

swing no one day looks super hard what's

hard is that I did this for the last

five years and on the other end of that

I'm a really good comedian on the other

end of that I figured out how to

broadcast and finally found an angle

that's like really working for me on

YouTube like none of that can be forced

right you can't avoid the hard work but

the hard work o can't be compressed and

I think a lot of people now want to

compress the hard work like can I trade

uh get after it be hard like let's just

go forward can I trade that type of

energy to speed the stuff up and it it

doesn't work that way yeah yeah this is

where I I keep on flip flopping because

you know for

us just doing YouTube one day a week has

has worked for you doing the podcast

half a day a week has worked but for me

trying to write for 3 hours each morning

to work on the book didn't work nearly

as well as sending myself to a random

Airbnb in Wales and just like cranking

it out the first draft in like a week

yeah and just thinking okay it's going

to be [ __ ] but it's just going to at

least I've got the 50,000 words on a

page you know that kind of idea how how

do you balance the I guess doing things

reg I guess consistently over time with

these bursts of intensity yeah but I

mean I think these are the same things

just different scale right so so uh for

a YouTube video right you want to have a

serendipitous idea you need to hold that

idea in your head manipulate it and

figure out like how am I going to turn

this into a script for a video that's

going to be like 15 minutes long right

so you can do that in a few hours a book

it's 75 80,000 words right and you're

trying to okay how do I pull together a

lot of ideas and make them make sense

and build a consistent thing uh that

takes a long time to work through and

that's why it makes more sense to like

sit down and you have to really it's

just going to take longer to work it

through I mean a book is just much

bigger than a YouTube video so I think

it's the same principle that play nice

what I do because I can't

it take I I I'm a slow writer just in I

mean I I write fast but I write slow in

the sense that I the New Yorker kind of

ruined me for this but wordcraft is very

important to me like the Rhythm and

sounds of sentences so I what I have to

do is make my chapters pretty they're

pretty self-contained like the chapter

has to be my unit because I can't go

away and write a whole draft of my book

I just it would be too many months um

and I just can't get away from the other

things that like my university is going

to make me do so you'll notice in my

books often the chapters are they're

long and they have like an arc and

they're kind of self-contained because

like that I can go away with and like I

can do 7,000 words you know and like

that I can I can get obsessed so I think

the time require so that requires like a

week or two a YouTube video requires

half a day a full book requires a month

right I think it's a scaling law yeah

that's good and as as you were saying

that I was also thinking around you know

how we talked about how every new

project has an administrative cost it

also has has a startup cost like trying

to work on the book for two hours and

and then doing other things and then

coming back the following day to it

takes like half an hour at least for me

to try and read through what I wrote

yesterday figure out where was I in my

research find the 18 zillion tabs and my

scrier documents to see to sort of load

it up into my Ram yeah and then be able

to work on it by which time half an hour

is already gone oh yeah it takes forever

yeah yeah well like a YouTube video uh

because it's it's completely from

scratch you don't have to load a bunch

of stuff up in fact what you're trying

to do is like encounter the world fresh

and have a serendipitous idea of like o

this hits me like you almost want to be

mind like water open like that's how I

often do it I'm like what hits me and

you're right it's kind of Hit or Miss

right because sometimes it works

sometimes sometimes it doesn't but the

other thing I spend a lot of time doing

like when I write books is I treat the

the idea creation process like here's

the here's the framework for this book

here are the ideas um here's the pieces

of this idea right so like slow

productivity you know how do I

understand where the problem came from

what are my principles you know that I

will spend an inord amount of time try

to get macr structure the macro

structure yeah I mean I will send like

I'm in the early stages of a new book

idea right now that I'm I'm not really

talking about yet but like I like to

work on the ideas of a new book when I'm

publicizing a past book so I can just

sort of get out of my head about what's

going on and be like no there's

something else coming um I have spent

probably 50 hours so far just outline

just outlining ideas not even book

outlines idea outlines right um because

I just this isn't quite right this works

okay how is this fit to hear so when it

comes time for me to write now I really

can focus on a chapter because I know

like what this chapter is about and how

it fits into the broader thing and so I

don't have to load up the entire

framework of all the ideas I'm trying to

write and make sure it all fits together

um I have that working before I write

any words and then that allows me be

like okay so how do I then write a

chapter on this piece of the puzzle

that's really good and then that's

that's like a smaller scale for me nice

that's really good oh by the way quick

thing in case you are interested in

starting and or growing and or

monetizing a YouTube channel then you

might like to check out my part-time

YouTuber Academy it is a course that has

dozens and dozens of hours of content in

it along with templates and worksheets

and resources that basically open source

absolutely everything that me and my

team have learned about growing my

YouTube channel and also this podcast

YouTube channel over the last 7 plus

years so you can check that out at

academy. al.com that'll be linked Down

Below in the video description and the

show notes as well feel free to check

out the parttime YouTuber Academy when I

read Morgan hell's psychology of money

it's like 20 chapters each are the

length of a short blog post yeah and

that was I was like oh how nice must it

be to be able to write a book where

you've got 20 chapters each that of the

length of a short blog post he sold he

sold a couple copies of that book too I

understand that are all like

selfcontained with really interesting

stories it's really good I felt good

listening to an audible cuz he you know

it didn't take long to get through I was

like Wow and like a handful of ideas

stuck with me I'm like wow why did I

spend all this time trying to architect

a whole freaking 70,000 word thing when

actually had I just chunked it down a

little bit more and thought of it as

self-contained ideas almost like YouTube

videos maybe things might have worked

better yeah yeah he he's thee of the

game I had that same thought once when I

read I don't know if you know jiren

lenir sort of uh he's a techn Critic

computer scientist invented VR

interesting guy right brilliant guy um

uh but I remember reading and he just

has like ideas right I remember reading

one of his books when I was working on

maybe a world without email and he's

like all these ideas I looked in the

back and like there's no footnotes I was

like oh I didn't know you could do that

he's just like look guys I have ideas

and I'm just going to give you here if

you look at my books because I'm an

academic I mean it's like laboriously in

noted it's all blinded notes so it

doesn't get in the way of the reading

but it's like a big chunk of the back

and it's inotes there's footnote I got

this from here but some sources disagree

with this or whatever his techno idea

books he just rock and rolls he's like I

don't know something like this is right

I like I didn't know you could do that

and I bet he wrote those books he could

write those they're brilliant because

he's a smart guy probably spends like a

month just like you know smart and just

like rocks Rock and rolls and like

writes this thing or whatever yeah there

something around you know a question

that I I often ask is uh what would this

look like if it were fun and I and I

didn't ask that question enough of

myself when I was writing my book

because I I thought oh it's it's a book

it's a big deal it has to be a thing

it's like you know I vaguely have a

somewhat academic background so I want

to make sure I cite every freaking

source for everything and like that

citation is a bit dodgy because that

study was a bit dodgy but you worry

people are going to everyone worries

this the people are going to come after

after you for this no one cares no car

you're convinced that like all these all

these professors are going to like pull

their pipe out and be like uh uh uh I

don't know about this citation right

here and like some sort of alarm's going

to go off and no one cares there are

stuff people get upset about but it's

never the citations yeah it's like I

don't like the word productivities in

your title which is yeah I'm sure

something we both dealt with oh yeah

exactly I I kind of flip-flopped between

different like over the over the last

like four years like especially during

the pandemic there was a very an

productivity wave yeah and well

initially there was a very Pro

productivity wave then there became a

very anti- productivity wave yeah so the

time we were thinking about titles we

like do we not have the word

productivity in it because people don't

like the word how how did you decide to

lean into the word productivity well

this I I mean this is the phrase I like

right I think this is right and I think

this could stick I think it I think it

describes right what I'm trying to do

and I'm actually following the framework

of the slow movements in general here so

like I think it's appropriate there's

slow food there's slow cities uh and so

I think you know for the broader

audience it's the right I think the term

is self-explanatory in a way I think

it's the right thing they do the sort of

more Elite media did not like this term

no really oh yeah yeah how's it uh they

just were not happy because I don't know

it I don't know if you have the same

experience but the the people who are

unhappy about the book are they're like

we're unhappy with the word productivity

um and here's like the acceptable way to

talk about it which is essentially uh

productivity is a construction of

capitalist narratives and we have to

like take down capitalism if you're

willing to make that critique we're

willing to like take you as a serious

think thinker if you're not we are not

going to be happy so it's interesting I

definitely got I definitely got some of

that how do you personally find ways to

make writing fun I mean writing is my

number one thing yeah I mean I've been

I've done it my entire adult life it's

my that's my art form that's my you know

the thing I admire the thing I want to

do it's it's my sport if I was a

professional athlete like I so I've just

always done it I started in University

you know I I'd been a good writer in

school and knew it was hard and I went

to University and said the one thing

this is true I said to myself the one

thing you cannot do when you're here is

become a writer it's like too hard

anything else but do not become a writer

so in about a year I started writing

right I didn't listen I tried to become

an athlete actually right so I uh was

rowing crew

um and was like doing well at that I

like this is great I was like I'll be

like a like a dock and it's like fun

like you know hang out with all of these

because I'm not I'm not you know crew is

not like a big thing in the states

except for at you know like the ivy Le

schools and I I was just from like a

public school but I went to an Ivy

League school where they had the boat

houses and the ratas I was like this is

great this is what I assume College

people do is they row boats and stuff

and I developed a heart condition uh

completely idiopathic or um you know

just was there congenital I guess would

be the ter is that you're the doctor

right uh you were born it's just what

you were born with it yeah um so you

would probably an atrial flutter so yeah

like a rapid tardia right and it just

out of nowhere later in the year just

exercise induced uh that's annoying yeah

right so I couldn't row anymore yeah um

and like what am I going to do like I'll

write okay and the next year I started

writing right so that and I've made

peace with it being really hard um at

first I was just you know I'm going to

do this even though it's hard I was my

in University was my mindset was um just

do it and do more I was writing for the

paper I was writing for The Humor

Magazine and I was like I'm just going

to outright everyone just through like

effort yeah if we have a magazine issue

coming out I'm gonna give you five

pieces they're going to be good and

they're going to be whatever um and then

over time I like okay I'm starting to

enjoy this and like it and now I see it

as like a craft I see as like an art

form um you know I've written a bunch of

books I get to do it for the New Yorker

which is like a dream of mine like this

is really hard writing you know and I

don't dread it at all um I just like it

being hard so I just got used to it it's

like the athlete that like after a while

likes the hard training because they

know this is what I do and this is part

of like performing on the field and it

gets there okay CU I don't feel that way

about writing yeah and so I'm kind of

thinking I mean I do sort of I do feel

that way about doing like uh chill

YouTube videos where I can do the bullet

point thing like that feels very alive

for me yeah I feel like I yeah I come

alive when someone poses a question be

like how do I stop procrastinating and

I'm like but you've been doing that for

a long time right like you've been doing

it goes back to the beginning of the

conversation like you've cultivated a

passion for that over time oh yeah I was

I wasn't very good at it or really

enjoyed it initially yeah back to like

your initial here's how to like prepare

for the medical exam videos it's not

like you finish that we're like this is

my calling like like but but like you're

just a perfect example of like you you

passion follows you doing something not

you start with your passion I mean I've

been writing for a long time I I signed

with my agent when I was 20 years old

how how old are you now 41 oh D yeah so

I've been writing and I signed my first

book deal right after I turned 21 like a

few months after that right so I've been

writing professionally now for two

decades damn okay yeah so I've been

doing it for a long time yeah you know

good to know because I'm sort of

comparing I'm like man I really don't

enjoy writing as much as as much as K

does but you've been doing it for five

times longer

so okay where

um what are some of your favorite

stories around this idea slow

productivity for people who maybe

haven't read the book on because it's

really good well and there are a lot of

stories what I did and I should preface

this as long as we're talking about

writing like a writing decision I made

in this book is uh there's two things I

decided not to do in this book just

because I've done it before and I wanted

to try something different right so I

decided um not for the most part not to

focus on contemporary examples of

knowledge work organizations or

individuals and say uh look what they're

doing here this is interesting yeah um

also I wasn't going the studies route

yep right researchers from University of

Michigan said that you know in a control

group I was like okay I don't want to do

that either um what I did instead and

this this was the slow movement

inspiration is I went back and I looked

at the stories what I call traditional

knowledge workers who were people who

used their mind to create value um but

did it in times past with huge

flexibility and autonomy all right why

did I care about knowled we're talking

Galileo we're talking Mary cury we're

talking Jane Austin right why am I

looking at these knowledge workers that

don't work in office and don't deal with

email don't because the fact that they

had a lot of flexibility and autonomy

meant they could experiment and I said

okay let me see what they gravitated

towards like when you said you have

patronage you can all that matters is

how good the stuff you produce you

figure out how to do it what do they

gravitate towards right that's where I

identified the key principles of slow

productivity and then because I've just

written about technology knowledge work

for a long time I said can I adapt these

Timeless principles to a 21st century

job where you have a slack handle an

email address and like the reality of

modern work and then I adapt those

principles so the stories are of like

Timeless figures in the past the advice

is like needle accurate for I have

exactly this job you know in a modern

company and I'm dealing with this

Dynamic for with my yeah I found it

really um engaging in a way that most

non-fiction self-help books rarely are

because I was I was like oh I didn't

know this about Jane Austin or like John

MC or like Galileo

or cool it's like oh it it sort of made

me imagine like oh how nice it would be

to you know go to The Meadows and just

sort of lie on the Park Bench thinking

for a seven days my thought if like

trigger that response and then follow it

with and here's how you could kind of

simulate that same effect in your actual

life right now I thought that would be

like an interesting pairing but I'll

give you an example though so like the

Jane Austin example is a good one right

um because I thought this was a really

interesting story so you know Jane

Austin the novelist um there's lore

about her right there's this lore that

Jane would write surreptitiously while

she was in like the sitting room and

when people would come like visitors or

whatever she had a a creaky hinge on the

door when they would hear that Creek

that would warn her like let me hide

what I'm working on so it was like this

story of her like fitting in work like

wherever she could like and then I fit

it in whenever I had these moments and

like that's how she wrote her books

right and everyone told this story uh

Virginia wolf references this in a room

of Room of One's Own um Mason Curry

tells the story and daily rituals like

it's been around it turns out like I'm

looking into this like it's all

completely made up right it was her

nephew James wrote a biography of her

decades after she died and basically

just made a lot of stuff up that like he

thought would help the story of his aunt

and it would be interesting uh but now

there's more recent biographies that

look at primary sources that's not at

all what happened um Jane was too busy

to write and was super frustrated about

it she had these ideas but they had so

much going on she could not not make

progress on them and it was like a huge

source of frustration in her life she

was not fitting in the writing into

little Open Spaces um she didn't have

the Open Water to get things done later

in her life uh her father dies her her

mom her sister and a family friend are

like we're tapping out of this whole

busy life and the social scene and all

this type of stuff we doing and they

move into a cottage that her brother

owned uh he had inherited land and they

had a c they moved in this Cottage and

just no more no more active life and

they free time for the first time Jane

writes all five of her famous books in

like two years not by by squeezing it

into little free time in a busy life but

by becoming much less busy right so I

thought this was a really cool story so

like what's the principle there is like

well okay um sometimes to do something

good you have to do a lot less right

like uh good things require time and

space and sometimes simplifying what's

going on is what actually allows you to

break through and do not pushing more

stuff in well we can easily adapt this

over to knowledge work like that goes

back to like what we were talking about

before I said yes to 10 projects as a

knowledge worker that each have

administrative overhead that's clogging

up my schedule now I can't finish my

proverbial novel if I cleaned out what I

was working on you know worked on fewer

things at the same time built my own

version of Jane Austin's Chon Cottage

now I can start finishing Emily in sense

in Emma I should say in Sense and

Sensibility right I could start making

like actual progress on stuff that

matters so it's like a Timeless

principle and then we can give really

tactical advice for leveraging it in a

modern job what so I so a few hours ago

I was I was I was teaching a live

session for our our productivity lab and

loads of people in the in the in the

zoom chat were asking this thing of like

cuz we were planning um you know the the

the ideal week like blocking out what

would your dream week look like and

everyone's kind of realizing [ __ ] my

dream week there are not enough hours in

the week to do all of the things that I

would like to do oh interesting so they

were reacting that question by

enumerating lots of different things

they wanted they were like oh yeah you

know you you know in my dream week I

would have time for this and this and

this and I'd also spend 10 to 20 hours a

day on my hobbies and blah have time for

the kids have time for the wife blah

blah blah BL blah blah um and then they

were like wait a minute there's like

they just aren't enough hours in the day

yeah and so I found myself saying that

like yeah well you know you just need to

do less and stuff but then they were

like well easy for you to say you're a

YouTuber you can do what you want what

about those of us with the corporate job

and so I wonder

if what would you say to like the

corporate employee who's like yeah but

Kell I can't just not do these 10 things

like we we've talked about how one of

the strategies is this like Google doc

showing active and what's passive are

there any other things that you found

helpful that corporate corporate workers

have found in as as a way of reducing

the amount of stuff that they're working

on at one time yeah oh yeah there's a

bunch of things you can do okay so like

another thing is never give a hard yes

or hard no in the room okay so your boss

says uh hey look here's this important

project I want you to work on can you do

this for me don't say yes or no be like

that sounds like really important that

sounds um like a really high priority um

I'll tell you what I I will go back like

right away away and because I keep track

of my time very carefully and I'll get

right into my schedule right away and

get right back to you about

like when I can do this or how it's

going to fit in now you bought yourself

some time and you've established I'm

very organized right and you've escaped

the social pressure of I'm in the room

and the hands on my shoulder and like

what are you g to say yes or no and then

a few hours later you can come back and

be like uh you know look I take I I keep

track of this stuff really carefully I

have like four things like I'm actively

working on it's eating up basically like

most of the time honestly it would

probably be like 6 weeks till enough of

this stuff is clear that I could give

this attention right so no I I I

wouldn't be able to turn this around

that is like an effective no because

it's not in the room yeah uh you've

established that you're very organized

which is like gives you credibility in

the conversation you've social proof the

I I have this is my workload I'm not

complaining I'm just being really like

uh effective about organizing my time so

that works well quotas work well there's

a common type of thing you get asked to

do and it's not something you can always

say no to as a part your job but you get

asked to do it way more than you have

time to do have a quota like I do three

of these a month I do five of these each

quarter and so you say yes until you hit

the quota and then you say I would love

to do it these are important I do a

quota of like three of these per month

they already hit the quota so I can't do

this one nice now they're in a position

where if they're

complaining all they can complain about

is oh your quota is wrong you know like

well maybe like your quota should be for

but they're not going to do that like no

look you you've thought about this or

you do this like what what you're

validating what they're afraid of is it

like you're lazy and you don't want to

do work and you're like I'm just going

to say no to things I don't want to do

things but like these type of things uh

make a big difference another thing you

can do schedule the time for your

commitments on your calendar and it's

there and now the time is blocked off

and if something else comes in let me

find time to do this and now you can

just be super transparent with people

like okay uh happy to do it uh I think

this will take about 10 hours U I

actually presch all my work on my

calendar the next time I can get 10

hours in like reasonably large chunks is

you know it's going be 3 or four weeks

from now so I can do that in three or

four weeks and take up that time so what

what you're doing in that example is

making your workload transparent making

the reality of your all of these things

are sort of making your workload

transparent making your systems

transparent uh this works right like you

think your boss is a mustache twirler

that's like I'm going to catch you and

you know it's not the way it works

people think their bosses are evil that

um they they want to make your life hard

and that they're looking for an excuse

to fire you that's not the case first of

all if you're good they stay up at night

worried about you leaving the hardest

thing in business you know this right is

hiring good people right they are not

looking for an excuse to fire you if

you're good they're uh desperately

afraid you're going to leave what does

your boss really want from you then

right what they want is for you to take

stress away from them y so when they

come to you with a thing y it's a source

of stress for them that they have to

keep track of this thing right now it's

their responsibility they want that

stress to go away if they know nothing

about how you organize yourself if they

know nothing about your workload um just

giving you the project is not enough to

take their stress away they still have

to worry about it till you tell them

it's done so what are they going to say

do this right away because I want my

stress to go away right away if you're

organized you're showing them your queue

you're showing them like where okay

here's this takes this many hours here's

when I have time I you you're giving

them this type of information they're

like of course he's going to get this

done I trust them that also takes my

stress away right away I don't need it

done to tomorrow I need my stress to go

away by tomorrow right so you can get

away with a lot more than you think if

you're really on your game and you're

organized and you're not complaining and

your whole focus is on like because I

want to be super effective and I'm very

realistic about my time so that I can do

really good work you get away with a lot

more than you think May that's great um

that's that's golden advice um what sort

of quotas or stuff have you got in your

life so as an academic uh pure reviews

is a big one right because you get more

review requests you have time to do it's

an important part of your service to

your academic Community you can't say no

to all reviews but you can't do all the

reviews right program committees is

another thing this is very like Insider

baseball um book blurbs to some degree

yeah like uh a pretty sort of tight

quotas unless it's someone I already

know um so I do pretty tight quotas on

that uh I also have a lot of walls too

like so there's quotas and there's walls

right so quotas are all do some but not

too many uh a lot of times you know

especially in in like our typee of work

you have to just wall off certain things

even though you're like this could be

good this could be interesting like I've

had the wall off direct communication

with my readers for example um I don't

have a general purpose email address

where you can just like email me and ask

whatever I used to and I loved it but

it's completely unsustainable and I

don't know how to quoif that because it

and so at at some point if it's the

delus is too strong to quo toy you have

to think about just Walling it off it's

like I W that off and it was it was

really hard I mean years ago I had to do

this it was really hard because I really

liked answering people's questions and

now I do it I broadcast it on a podcast

and now I answer six people's questions

a week but you know 60 or 7,000 people

will hear those answers and that's

better than me answering 70 questions a

week right the number of people who are

getting information but like so

sometimes you got to wall things off as

well talks I don't know about I strongly

quote a talks they don't like giving

talks drives my speaking agent

crazy like I'm doing a talk this fall

already what are you talking about he's

like do you realize like these other

business authors they'll do like 50

talks a year do you realize I was like I

just don't like it yeah nice um what

does let's say the summer's coming up

and you've got your half day cord for

the podcast what does like a day in your

life look like oh the summer is very

specific for me right because I'm an

academic at a research institution right

um the way that works at one of these

institutions is they don't pay you

salary in the summer right they pay you

10 months salary uh and typically

because what what you do is for the the

summer months in your research grants

part of what you ask for in the budget

is salary for those two months so that's

how if you're at a research institution

that's how you get your your like full

sort of salary that they they hired you

at right uh I realized at some point

like my books were doing well enough

that I could just not take salary in

those summer months not budget salary

from the grants and actually just say

these are mine um and you could

absolutely do that right there's no hey

it's summer like they're not paying the

university has no expectations there's

no Grant bearing organization that

thinks are going to be doing anything

the summer is actually mine so so I I

take that really seriously um I call it

summer so I have no uh administrative

academic work for the most part in the

summer because I'm not taking paycheck

yeah right okay um and then I run what I

call Summer hours so nothing can be

scheduled on a calendar professionally

on Monday or Friday right so I want

Friday through Monday nice clean

calendar right

uh the things that can be sched on

Tuesday Wednesday Thursday only in the

afternoon so that's where like if

because there stuff you know I I want to

talk to people I want to do a podcast

interview with someone you know I have

meetings with people or whatever I I

kind of consolidate it there um big push

deep work Monday big push deep work

Friday deep work half day Tuesday

Wednesday Thursday weekend's completely

off yeah so that's my summer hours which

by the way is basically my dream

schedule yeah if if I sound like my

dream schedule as well doing your

productivity lab exercise that's what I

that is my dream schedule now I'm only

able to do this uh and then the podcast

is uh I have to figure out what I'm

gonna do about it this summer it might

be its own half day on Monday or Friday

but maybe I really what I should do is

take one of those Tuesday Wednesday

Thursday meeting half days like all

right let's take one of those for the

podcast yeah Mee be two days yeah so I I

also have Mondays and Fridays completely

CED off yeah Wednesdays are filming days

Tuesday mornings are team meetings and

Thursday afternoon is any ad hoc thing

that needs scheduling yeah which leaves

Monday completely free Friday completely

free Thursday morning completely free

Tuesday afternoon somewhat completely

free and Wednesday's filming day anyway

which is my service obligation to my

YouTube channel yeah um and that's nice

oh one one difficulty I have

is let's say the Monday is free or the

Friday's free

and someone wants to come on the podcast

and it's someone that I kind of want to

talk to and I I sort of know them a bit

of a social obligation to get them on

the podcast I would really it if it

could fit into my Thursday afternoon

slot but for whatever reason they're

only London for like a certain day and

I'm like you're you're looking at me

really hard right now because we're

recording right now we're recording

right now category I love doing podcast

in the evening because then it's like oh

the workday is done we're just having a

chat life is sometimes we get takeway

Etc but I find that the amount of sort

of yes but not hell yes starts to eat

into the schedule yeah how how do you

deal with this cuz I imagine you have a

lot of yes but not like hell yes

shouting from oh it's the podcast

interview thing is hard specifically I

guess I shouldn't use his name because

we were talking off the air but I had

this exact conversation with uh a major

another major podcaster and and this is

his big problem too like he really likes

the way we're talking about structuring

his days and his time but also his show

is based on awesome guest yeah and

there's like only to some degree can he

fit like awesome guest into a certain

time um I like your Solution by the way

of like how do I make the guest

interviews itself into something I

really enjoy doing in the evening it's

not stepping on it's not in the middle

of the day in a way that's stepping on

it um but yeah I mean look we all have

our version of that I think right like

for me it's it's not gonna be a podcast

I don't do a lot of interviews M

exception for you but know it's not

really an interview show and kind of on

purpose because it's that's a treadmill

that's like complicated yeah but for me

it's like interesting people in town for

example like I used to struggle like I

want to see this person I want to go

like whatever and there's a while where

I would be frustrated like this is

stepping on the free point of the

calendar and at some point I changed my

mindset about that I was like no this is

like the type of thing that your

flexibility is rewarding you with it's

like someone's in town who's really

interesting and we can like go for a

hike or whatever like go get drinks or

something like that like that's actually

like great that I can do that and so I

I've been I've been trying to have that

mindset shift for for those type of

interruptions yeah same thing for going

on pod I don't I do a fair number of

podcasts just always like just as a

background drum beat but when I'm not

doing book publicity I'm really like

kind of picky I just like I don't know

if you say sit in your schedule and and

sort of take up time but for me it'll be

if like um because a lot of the big

podcasts I've done typically the first

time I've done them has been randomly

over the transom right so not we pitched

them because a book was out it's just

you know whatever Sam Harris wants you

to come on and talk about and this is

when he records or something yeah it's

like great and that yeah and I'm like

okay yeah I'll do it yeah and like

psychologically I try not to be too much

like okay you're stepping on my schedule

because in in the what's the point of

having this schedule it's so that like

you don't feel busy you don't feel

rushed your life is interesting you can

work on stuff you care about this is

like a fun thing to do yeah yeah know

I've I've kind of landed on the same

general idea there were times in the

past where someone would be in town for

a coffee and and I'd be like okay well

you know my my lunch hour should really

be one to two because I've got this

thing at two and I'm like I I just block

off one to 300 p.m. as like my lunch

break nice cuzz if cuz if anyone is in

town like 2 hours is a good amount of

time for thing yeah or if there's like

time in the day and like my significant

other is you know needs some emotional

support or whatever and I will try to

the best of of my ability to give that

emotional support um in the past I used

to be like ah it's kind of interrupting

the work day but now I'm like actually

the whole point of doing this

flexibility entrepreneur thing is so

that I can interrupt my workday to lend

some emotional support so what do you do

in that that one to 3:00 lunch hour if

nothing comes up oh then I'll just go

for lunch and like take a walk or

something yeah take a walk listen to do

some deep work like yes reality

transerfing is a book I've had on my

desk bookshelf for years finally I have

a spare hour to sit down and actually I

love this idea well I'll tell you

another thing I do this with another

mindset shift is I had to be very

careful about um not shifting

professional productivity mindsets over

to personal life right because I have

three kids they're all like a school age

now right so um there's a lot of stuff

yeah right and I had that there's a

moment where I was like hm the

schedule's too clut because I have these

beautiful summer hour schedules or

whatever and it's like wait a second

it's like baseball and then picking up

this kid and doing this and doing that

and then I this mindset shift of like no

this is this is the good stuff right

this is where like the flexibility of

your work is great because like I can go

see the thing at the school and actually

having a whole evening like shuttling

kids around and doing various activities

is like that's what you want to be doing

in your evening right like that's good

clutter so I like this let's use a term

uh like good clutter or productive

clutter versus clutter destructive

clutter like good schedu clutter is like

you can stuff that is important can show

up and you can make room for it there's

a the there's a phrase I've been

thinking about for a few years um people

often asking how do you cope with

distractions I'm like there are welcome

distractions and unwelcome distractions

so when I was at University I would

leave my door propped open all the time

because a welcome distraction is a

friend you know coming up the stairs

looking the head in and having a chat

like that's the point yeah and you're

like yeah maybe it reduces my

productivity by 3% because I was

interrupted and F and blah blah blah BL

but the point is the point of university

is not that I got an extra 3% on my exam

it's that I had those connections yeah

so that's a welcome distraction

similarly when I have kids I hope you

know I I've I've heard from from from

parents that like you know when the kid

knocks on your office door and wants to

tell you something you like oh got my

work but it's the kid yeah and they

always are glad that they made made the

decision to prioritize the kid in that

context that should be our our metric

then like the metric for you have the

right definition of productivity of the

right approach to work is that like if

the kid knocks on your door it's not

stressful right because if you're pseudo

productivity busy out the gills having

to put out the fires of 10 projects

worth of administrative overhead it is

stressful if there's any Interruption

because you're like this house of cards

is barely staying together I'm just like

putting water on this fire and it jumps

over here whereas if you're slowing down

your definition of productivity I'm not

doing too much I'm I don't have too much

on my plate today I'm giving things a

lot of time for it to unfold and develop

I'm not too crowded then when someone

the kid knocks on the door like it's not

a big deal you know I'm I'm working on

my book right now yeah come in let's

talk so like maybe that's demetric how

stressed do you get by like a innocuous

distraction if you if you're getting

super stressed about that your

productivity notion is probably off off

base yeah one one area where I currently

get stressed by this is recently I've

realized I should take my health more

seriously so I schedule in 7: a.m. gym

sessions with a personal trainer and so

if a dinner with friends is running late

till like 11:00 p.m. I'm like oh no this

eating it into the sleep oh [ __ ] oh no

you're going to be good at being a

parent this is the whole thing that's

the whole thing is like what time is

that movie start I got to wake up what

is you talking about um how do you

approach this like slow productivity

stuff while at the same okay one of my

issues is I'm like there's still part of

me that feels this if I'm not cranking

out the YouTube videos at the right time

then I might become irrelevant or if I'm

not doing more and more book promo then

you know we've only sold X number of

copies and the publisher says if sell 3x

number of copies then the book will take

on a life of its own and maybe I should

just push hard now so that I can chill

out later yeah and then it gets into

this sort of seed of productivity

pushing pushing pushing mode again yeah

where's later though is the problem well

you know because in later there's going

to be something else to yeah I'm a big

fan of like sustainable hard work yeah

like I'm trying to do something I think

about books this way I'm taking a great

swing at this like I want to give a good

time I want to try to write something

I'm proud of I'm going to give it good

attention um and then it's done it's

done it's go out I'll give it a good

push we'll see what it does and maybe

it'll do really great and maybe it won't

and we'll sort of tip our cap and then

we'll sort of move on to the next one

you know um because I you again I

started giving advice to college kids

and this was like the number one source

of stress for for for University

students was this idea of um I'm going

to grind it out here because that'll get

me to whatever medical school to this

job in the law school and I'll be so

happy with that accomplishment that'll

be worth it but when you get there it's

like well I got to grind it out here but

then I'll be so happy to finish that

because I'll get the great residency

well okay I have to grind it out through

the residency but then I'll get the

great and it's it's endless right I mean

I have a lot of friends who've gone

through this like through the the law

process right because I'm of an age

where people my age are like becoming

Partners in law firms right and that's

like the final thing um and it's just

been brutal and they get there and the

work there is brutal as well like wait a

second what what is the game we were

playing here it's not when you get there

they're like okay like here's your house

on an island go have fun it's like you g

to do this for the rest of your life uh

yeah it's a dangerous mindset I mean I'm

a big fan and like sometimes something

needs like a big hard push right I mean

you're like a movie director it's like

you got to you got to go all in to make

this movie but if you have control over

the schedule like bookwriting you can

say here's how long I need to write this

book you can do it in a reasonable way

right do it in a reasonable way nice

yeah all right cal um I know you have to

go because you have a dinner date with

your wife which is the perfect reason to

say goodbye here um thank you so much

any potting wisdom for people who have

listened this far look I mean I I think

important thing is like when it comes to

productivity you talk about productivity

I talk about productivity uh if you're

thinking about productivity Define your

terms right like so much of the issues

around this concept comes from different

definitions of it right so never just

use the word productivity by itself have

a have a modifier feel good slow fast

like whatever it is like you we need to

get more specific when we talk about

productivity what are we trying to do

how do we do it how well is this

technique act you know how well is this

philosophy actually working um that's

like half the work I'm trying to do with

this book it's just saying here's what

our current implicit definition of

productivity really is a knowledge we're

going to call it pseudo productivity

let's just name it what it is let's

define it let's see where it came from

if you like it you can like it but once

we see what it is maybe you're going to

say that doesn't make a lot of sense

let's seek out another alternative just

naming things I think really matters

right so there is no capital P

productivity period done right there's

philosophies and ideas of what

productivity means to you um and how you

go after it and so you got to be pretty

specific about it and I think that's

what we're starting to see now we're

starting to see modifiers added to

productivity which is like exactly where

this conversation I think right now

Needs to Go amazing ke thank you so much

thanks for having me all right so that's

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