Mind Body Session 2 of 4 with Dr. Dan Ratner & Diane L.

hi this is dr dan ratner and today i am

joined again by diane for the second of

our four-part consultation today we're

going to go over the doubt column and

she's done some prep work which is going

to make it even easier to get to show

you guys how we actually combat the

doubts that are already articulated

if you haven't already click subscribe

ring the bell for notifications hit like

if you like what you're hearing and put

your comments below and i will get back

to you personally

diane i want to welcome you back and

thank you again for your generosity in

doing this it's always um

really impressive to me that people are

able to do this

and uh very generous of you so thank you

so much

thank you

all right

oh it's my pleasure so i wanted to uh

remind you and everybody who's you know

watching this out there

last time we went over your emotions

column we developed

some of those major themes and i was

very pleased with how far we got with

that now of course we can continue to

develop that over time the mind body map

is something that we

build over time it's a rough draft or

it's a you know flowing draft

but today we're going to focus on the

doubt column and i wanted to uh give you

a shout out about something because you

did some prep work that's going to allow

us to highlight something i think a bit

different than what i've gotten to do

in previous consultation episodes

and that is that you really articulated

your doubts

before coming in today so

the nice thing about that is that's

going to allow us to show people and and

for you to get this out of it

that

now we can start to combat them and i

just wanted to remind you the thing

we're going to need to do is to pick

the paths that work for you it doesn't

matter what i think

it doesn't matter what anybody thinks

the only thing that matters is how is

your brain working on this because

that's what you're

actually grappling with so

let's talk about doubts

i'm just going to remind everybody out

there that doubts exist on three

different levels there's the

is this a mind-body issue or not

which in your notes diane you said

you're 99 sure that it is mind body but

we know how strong that one percent can

be

or how much uh damage it can do

so we'll we'll get to that the second

one is

i know this is a mind-body issue but i

don't know how far mind-body issues go

or how far we can go in quote-unquote

curing them or alleviating them

and then the third one is

i know all of that's

fine it can go the whole way and i know

it's mind body but i'm not sure that i

can do it

or i'm not sure that my symptom profile

is resolvable some some doubt about you

specifically

so you did a great job articulating

these um

and what i thought we would do

is first of all we can actually just go

through them we're going to discover

along the way there are more doubts so

when i hear a doubt that hasn't been

articulated yeah i'm gonna draw that out

too okay but otherwise we're gonna

really concentrate on

understanding what

how do we how do we actually contradict

these and combat them in ways that can

actually put them to rest i'm not

interested as much in

what's a good way of combating them that

sounds really nice for a half an hour

i want to get you the actual resolution

about it

um so we're going to work we're going to

work on certainty right

so let's start at

what i would say is kind of the

beginning of your your doubt which is

this car accident

that you had at age 21.

um

i will leave it to you whether you're

going to mention how old you actually

are now but it's been a number of years

yeah i i'm totally okay with that i'll

be 68 this week actually so okay

so it was a very long time ago yeah

right well and that's that's important

for us to note because this is the way

doubt works you know i had a car

accident when i was 24 actually

and i did think for a long time well who

knows maybe that did some damage that

over time

something degenerative happened or some

injury just you know it's

the way people tend to think about their

bodies is it's like um

it's like it's a wall and that's getting

eroded by water or wind or something and

eventually it's just gonna crumble and i

understand why people think about it

because from a mortality aspect

that kind of is the case but

it doesn't affect pain that's the that's

the part that we need to get around or

symptoms so

let's get to this share with the share

share with the audience and with me what

what this car accident left you

doubting or what it was like

um well

i was 21 but interestingly when i look

back um i did have some symptoms right

away and and now when i look back

it's definitely my body

but the worst of the symptoms didn't

come until i was in my mid-30s

so

significantly

a significant

length of time after the accident and

yet it all got

by physicians by myself it all got

linked back to the accident and i think

i bought into the whole

idea that you've just presented that you

know your body starts to deteriorate and

the accidents catching up to me and it

doesn't make sense now but it did then

right and i i felt the same way i mean

my car accident that was a major part of

what i thought might be going on yeah

yeah

and it makes sense it makes logical

sense that you could consider that yeah

but

you're pointing out some logical

inconsistencies that you know

and at the same time aren't getting

totally cemented as i can let that go

and that's what i want is how can we

help you let go of this car accident all

together and know

it has

absolutely

zero percent to do with this

so let's take take me through then

what happened with the symptoms

and how you were thinking about them

because they are linked to this

doubt

uh so are you wanting me to to say what

the symptoms are well talk talk about

your beliefs about um the pelvis not

being in alignment that kind of thing

because

yeah um well since

since um

my mid-30s um whenever i do anything

active or i walk on a irregular surface

like sand not not so much a trail

my pelvis will go out of alignment and

it it really does go out of alignment

and then i end up

getting just a killer headache i do get

lower back pain and si pain but it's the

headaches that really do me in that wear

me out

and insomnia that goes along with it and

i just feel generally unwell all over

and yet

as i put in my notes

it just it doesn't

make sense because you know from the

anatomy that i've studied

um our bodies are are meant to be

um movable and

our joints are meant to move in all

directions right and your your pelvis

and si joint can't move that much

there's not a whole lot of scope for

movement

and so the amount of pain that i get you

know i

i haven't been able to figure that out

i've questioned physicians and i've

questions the

well you call them physical therapists

physiotherapists here in canada

um

and

there's always a plausible reason why it

happens and so i have bought into that

and just assumed that that's what it was

and what are some of those plausible

reasons i want to get assess that

um well things like the

the opening for nerves like the foramen

opening can be narrow in some people so

there's less room for

air and you know i might just be one of

those people that that my nerves get

pinched a little more easily

core instability which you've brought up

with other people lots of times um

so let me i'm going to jump in because i

hear a way to combat this yeah or i'm

going to tell you how i would combat it

it doesn't mean it's going to work for

you we're gonna have to adapt it to you

but one of the things that i rely on is

the minute i hear somebody say well

maybe you are just

i'm done

because

you know

the human body works the way it works

for everybody

it has evolved we are a species we we

have

all these things in common

to rely on a theory that

requires randomness

is never my thing

i want to at least challenge that

so

i i want i want to see if we can help

you dismiss that maybe you are just

somebody whose you know nerves get

pinched easily

i'm not saying it's not plausible like

it is a plausible and potentially

logical argument but it doesn't fit with

the facts that we know

uh it doesn't really fit with anything

that we know and it's relying on

complete randomness yeah all right well

you're like that and i'm not

meanwhile it it flies in the face of

something else you pointed out here

which is well why are all these people

healing then

i mean if that were really the case that

there just are some people who randomly

have their nerves pinched more often

they would never be able to heal from

this

no one would be getting better from this

yeah and in spite of years of working at

core stability

um i i haven't

achieved a place where you know i'm

pain-free from it and

right in light of pain i've remained

as active as i can and certainly walk a

lot and um you know that hasn't done the

truck the trick but

i've worked really hard at it so yeah it

hasn't worked yeah well i mean look you

you have you have like uh professional

athletes who are having these

quote unquote injuries and pain

chronic pain

do we really think their cores are weak

yeah exactly that's insane yeah

so

i i have to ask you this because we're

working with your your individual mind

once you hear something like that

what stops you from being able to to

dismiss that to say you know what

that that's one that i will never

entertain again i'm not sure what it is

yet but we need to find that out i don't

know

um that's a really good question it's

almost like there's two levels happening

in my brain

and there's the level that 99.9

buys it and then there's this little

voice in there somewhere

and even today you know if i wake up in

pain if i wake up with a headache my

first thought is

i must have slept wrong or i must have

done this even though we've talked about

this

and i've read about it so much through

something is still hooking me in right

right and and see that's what we need to

target this is what we do in a doubt

column session is we find out what is

happening so i i have an idea about it i

want to share it with you but we're

gonna we're this is a collaboration it's

not something where i know and you don't

to me this feels like

you know this is funny to be working on

in a doubt column session but because i

think this is actually kind of a power

column issue

but

the last level of doubt

is about can you yourself do this

and i think one of the reasons you have

doubt is re and that that last level by

the way does relate to the power column

it's like starting to flow into the

power column already yeah um

i think that you don't feel permission

to be certain

yeah

yeah you know again

as last week when you hit on something i

feel it in my heart it's just

um

i don't know whether it's because it's

been such a long time and yet there are

lots of other people that have had

lengthy periods of pain that

um move out of it but

it almost feels like it's been so long

that i've tried so many things why would

this work um why would they be different

um okay so i'm just gonna i'm gonna make

an observation that i think could be

helpful because i want to separate out

two separate doubts

instead of have them merged into one

there is the doubt about how long it has

been

uh and that's its own thing and this is

what i like to do when going through any

of the columns we separate everything

out we like

isolate them so that we can zap them

um

the doubt about it being this long

we got to deal with in one way

there is this separate doubt though

about can you be certain about things

and i have a hunch about something

this is just a hunch i want your

feedback um but

i think that

you are a very

modest person

thank you

[Music]

and

modesty is a wonderful quality and um i

i think it's it's good to have and i um

i try to have it wherever i can

but at the same time it can be limiting

if we're if we're so modest or so humble

that we don't believe we can know

anything then we can't have certainty

yeah

yeah that makes sense

did you feel it in your chest yeah i

don't know if i hit on something yes

okay yeah yeah so

right so to me

and i want you to write that down

somewhere in the doubt column that that

one of the things

and we actually should probably write it

in the power column in power column form

i'll show you how to do that in the

doubt column

i want you to write down essentially

my commitment to modesty

or humbleness

or my doubt about my own

[Music]

abilities

precludes me from being certain

about anything

yeah i i think you really hit on

something there yeah

okay now i want you to slide over to the

power column we're just going to make a

note on this

the power column version of this

is for you to recognize

sorry you're still taking notes so i

don't want to

jump too fast

okay okay i'm ready you ready okay

the power column aspect that we want in

this

is for you to recognize that you are

actually

not giving yourself the full power that

anybody has

we all can decide

that we're going to be certain about

certain things

when the evidence is

rock solidly

just

crushingly correct

okay

and

but you're gonna have to work on

enacting some power there

to say to yourself i i actually deserve

to go ahead and be certain about certain

things and

here's another thing um you are certain

about

all kinds of things you just don't think

of it that way for example if i ask you

does gravity exist do you have any doubt

no yeah

no yeah

so you have the capacity to be certain

but you you it's linked to

you've got to be certain in ways that

don't call into question well why are

you allowed to believe it when not

everybody does everybody believes in

gravity

i think almost everybody there's some

people out there maybe who knows there

are flat earthers and things like that

um

but

i think we need to help you develop the

skill to be certain

about things that not everybody is

certain about

and the reason that it's getting the

reason that you're stumbling on it is

that

i think it would be

like you would be saying to yourself

well i guess i am special in some way

you know part of the

part of the power column is to is to let

yourself feel that you are special in

some way and that that includes

i have a special ability to be certain

about this thing that not everybody's

certain about

right

yeah

what were we going to say it seemed like

you you had a response to that um i lost

my train of thought but i was going to

ask you a question and i think you

answered it

all right well there's going to be time

for questions for you know in the other

sessions and also after this as i often

say when we do these consultations i

don't just disappear

yeah i i'm i'm a consultant i'm a

troubleshooting consultant about these

things and so

you've got all the time in the world to

ask these questions okay all right

that's great okay let's jump back to the

doubt column

we're going to deal more with that when

we get to power i want to devote the

time today to doubt

but it does seem like we're hitting the

nail on the head that

you you have doubt as to whether you are

allowed to be certain

do you know what that's about i mean i

know i said what i think it's about in

part but i want to draw it out a little

bit more is there some

is there some reason you would be

kind of wed to to that not wanting to

be certain i think i think in

many ways i have a pretty healthy

self-esteem but i think there's areas in

my life that

i

i

second-guess myself and

i think that probably happens

from family of origin and again not

blaming my family and

just the way they

frame things and

how i'm wired is a little bit different

yep

i actually when i was reading your notes

that that jumped out at me

because uh it's certainly very familiar

to me

i have

actually very high self-esteem in some

ways yeah and then low self-esteem in

others in a way that

seems almost strange to have side by

side

yeah

exactly

i wouldn't probably tell the average

person on the street that because i

think i come across as being

fairly

um high in self-esteem but yeah there's

areas that i question myself and you

know whether i

i suppose that some level even deserve

to have that opinion um

and and i think that it's family of

origin

stuff that's come up

right and

you know again it may just be the way

i've interpreted things from my family

it may not have been their intent but

um

okay but this this brings up another

part about how doubt is operating in you

um

like me

uh or more like i used to be before i

kind of

solved doubt some and developed the

power column a bit more

i used to doubt my own perception about

just about everything

even when i was

99.99999999 sure

i'd be like well listen i mean i can get

things wrong

you know or i need to take the other

perspective

so goodists we we're

we are people pleasers

we are always on the horizon for what am

i missing what am i doing wrong

uh what's the other perspective

and to solve doubt

we need to do that thing where we dip

into black and white thinking

right you are allowed to keep the other

perspective a lot of the time

but not when it comes to certain things

we don't want you to keep the other

perspective in mind when you question

could that car accident have caused this

we don't want you to have any other

opinions in your head about yeah

does you know pelvic alignment relate to

these things right

there and this is this is a power column

thing too to be fiercely in your own

corner about these things

that's you use black and white thinking

and you use it with no mercy

no mercy for the doubts yeah

none

we gotta attack them yeah

and it's not in your nature to attack

which i appreciate about you well i can

but i don't very often and then if i do

i don't feel very good about myself

right right

and

what i want to do is is and this is part

of the like doubt action step is

give yourself permission to in a very

targeted way

do some black and white thinking that is

very attacking now remember you're not

attacking anyone

but you're attacking doubt

right you're attacking illogic yeah

nobody gets hurt in that yeah exactly

yeah

so

you know

let me let me um

check in with you about

uh

a couple of aspects that are causing

doubt all right all right so the idea

that your pelvic gets out of alignment

you say it does

i'm not arguing that it does or it

doesn't but i want to hear from you

what's making you say that it does

um

i can well i've done some deep tissue

body work so i've done a fair amount of

anatomy but i can lay on the floor and

feel it and

um

the asis t your two bones at the front i

can feel them kind of shift right over

um so i can i can palpate them and feel

that they're out

okay

and then how do you get them back in

uh usually

using some kind of muscle movement to

try and get it back into where it's

meant to be and

some configurations i can do myself but

some might need to see a physical

therapist i can't

i can't really

do the assessment properly okay so i'm

going to give you my take on this

this is just my take and i don't expect

you to just

you know swallow it whole but i i think

but i want to give it to you so that we

can start to kick around this

idea my take is that

whether or not there is some kind of

minor misalignment happening there

i would say i would actually call that

in question

i i don't know that that

here's why

you are

your your mind body uh is so

sophisticated that it can manufacture

that feeling entirely

uh it can and

perception is tricky you know you've

probably had the experience that you can

be looking at the exact same person and

think

wow what a good looking person then

other times be like i don't know about

that

you know and and look there's nobody

that that happens more with than when

we're looking in the mirror yeah exactly

there are days where i look in the

mirror and i think oh i'm looking pretty

good today and then other days and i'm

like oh my god yeah we all have that

yeah

nothing has changed

perception has changed and i want i just

want to put in a plug for the fact that

i think that

if you want to get rid of this doubt i

would start challenging that as

perception and not reality

because if you hold to that reality

which we actually don't know if it's

true

we don't have it's not like you're

getting

you know

a an x-ray every time

and they can show you it's it's yes it

is misaligned yeah

so a thing you see people walking down

the street that

are really hunched over or crooked or

have a terrible scoliosis

and they're not in pain and i think

they're they're out more than i am i

mean they're so visibly out you can see

that right

and and you know you also pointed out in

your notes this we're talking

millimeters yeah

millimeters yeah what are really what

really are the chances

that evolution

[Music]

over i use evolution to hammer down all

the time yeah what are the chances that

evolution would

have us evolve over millions of years

and the end result would be

if your pelvis moves

two

millimeters you would develop a killer

headache

i know

it just makes sense it doesn't

and i'm sure if you took um 30 people in

a room and assessed all their pelvises

or their backs nobody's symmetrical

yep

and i don't know if you saw the video i

just did on the placebo effect but yeah

i did yeah that's right you commented on

it um

so

i think it's a really important one for

people to watch um and it's always been

an important idea to me because it is

the strongest proof we have that the

mind can

convince the body and make any bodily

experience happen any experience

um i mean i'm i'm not that's not very

limited at all again i i say for life

and death things yeah that's that's more

medical or environmental and doctors

take care of that but you know people

lose their spouses and they are more

likely to actually die within six months

and that's not all because they stop

taking care of themselves

it's because their their heart is broken

your heart can give out yeah i've seen

that lots of times so

there's no limit to what the mind and

the body can do

i'm giving it's even giving you a cough

right now possibly

i i actually i mean it really is funny

because i now that i see this i can't

unsee it i don't even sneeze without

recognizing no i'm irritated

you know

um

and

of course i i could sneeze if i got

sawdust in my nose or something like

that or if i have a cold i'm more likely

to there are other reasons but

the mind and the body are so strong

in their in their connection

because they're they're really one and

the the way to think about this is that

you could manufacture any experience

including the perception that you're out

of alignment

including the reality

that you're slightly out of alignment

but i don't want you to think about it

that way because it locks you in

to a partly structural model

so i want you to either think of that

i don't want you to think like the term

misalignment

that will cause you pain in and of

itself

it sounds painful yeah it does yeah

so i wouldn't think about it that way i

mean

like you know if i hold up my hand and i

move my is my finger now out of

alignment no it just moved you know yeah

it's a dynamic process in it

your pelvis moves yeah it's not out of

alignment this is how i would think

about it

don't think of it as out of alignment

think of it as

it's in motion

and it is perfectly capable of being in

motion

what's ending up happening instead is

you've got to worry

you've got a worried perception

and that does then lead to things i i i

have to say i have been completely blown

away

by

the power of the mind i'll give you an

example

um

i mean i did this during the covet

vaccine i was like wow this is very

powerful i don't know what effects the

cove vaccine can have on people what

side effects

but i know i was able to

not have

any real ones myself whether through

mind body process or i just you know

i you could say i got lucky or whatever

but that's a random theory so i don't

really like that

yeah but um i recently

this this is this is this is a personal

story but i i was

i was in a therapy and i was getting a

lot of anxiety

like physical anxiety

and i will tell you i've never had an

experience that was more uncomfortable

than physical anxiety

um

and the guy i was seeing at the time who

i really uh you know i i tend to skewer

him on on here uh for good reason he

deserves it um

but i do it for you guys too

to show how you can use some black and

white thinking like i dismiss what he

thinks by being black and white about it

i'm like no that guy's an idiot that's

it right but he he convinced me to start

using some antidepressants at one point

because he said it would help with the

anxiety

and it didn't for a while but eventually

we got to a certain level and it it did

seem to help and antidepressants can

help with that for a time

but i was very worried about getting off

of them because i was worried about well

what effect might it have

and you know i have this phobia too so i

was worried i would get sick

and when i went down from 10 milligrams

to 7.5

i i meditated twice a day i really

worked at it and i fought against doubt

and it was really hard but i eventually

got down to a level where i was totally

fine on the lower dose well recently i

went down from 7.5 to 5

and because i had mastered the earlier

dose there was nothing

literally nothing

i had gone down the exact same amount

in fact it was an even higher percentage

of what i was taking so you would think

that if this were serotonin induced or

whatever

i'd have a response

there was nothing yeah

it's pretty crazy how far this can go

now i

what i think doesn't matter but hearing

this kind of thing i want to apply it to

you and this pelvis thing

you do not want to call it out of

alignment it's never out of alignment

it's just moving

will do you think that could help you

put it to rest

i hope so um you know as we were talking

i was just thinking reflecting back of

different things that have happened to

me where

i've i've used that and thought i am not

going to let this bother me this isn't

going to be an issue and it hasn't

something that potentially

could have or should have

um

so i have i've had successes in that so

um yeah i hope so

so listen there's no pressure to have

that happen

um but let's use it and let's keep

discussing this because it

i really think it it ultimately will be

the case that we can get you there

but we got to start

i did a i did a um

i did a podcast on on subjective

language as well which i actually can't

remember if we released yet or not i can

never remember it's a blur um

but misalignment is a word that's going

to carry meaning

yeah you want to throw out any word that

cements doubt yeah

that's an emotionally charged word for

me for sure

you know when i hear that um

[Music]

i i already start to feel the pain so

right and and you know what killer head

killer headaches

yeah

let's get rid of let's get rid of that

those words

definitely let's get rid of killer yeah

yeah for sure um and now when i say that

i i do want to

continue to empathize though

because mind body pain is the worst pain

i've ever had and now that i understand

that physicalized anxiety was also mind

body yeah

the by far the most uncomfortable

experiences i've ever had have all been

mind body yeah and they're like

a hundred times worse than other things

yeah

and i think indirectly it's all

contributed to my transplant um i don't

think that

you know the viral infection was mind

body but i think my body was worn down

enough that it made me more susceptible

to it

well and it also probably has

exacerbated

what its results were i mean you you had

to have an actual transplant it's like

real medical stuff

um which you know i was blown away about

hearing in the last

last session we did but

we have to be

medically careful when there's anything

that is

life or death so i'm glad you rely on

doctors for that

they'll keep monitoring uh

the liver and all that stuff

but we also can challenge doubt

you know whatever whatever that brings

up like people can become convinced of

anything they could be like well

i don't know what a liver transplant

does maybe it gives you headaches

or maybe it you know

leads you to have brain fog

you know things you mentioned in your

notes

we can believe all kinds of things

and i i sometimes catch myself believing

something

that i didn't realize

was a belief i just thought it was a

fact

yeah

well i think i think in a positive way i

use the mind-body things to

recover from my transplant because i i

just in my mind i was not going to let

that stop me

and it didn't and

in spite of all the other problems

where potentially i i could have had a

much more difficult recovery

i didn't um yeah

i just

planted that seed i was not going to let

that stop me so

i know i can do that you know i can use

my mind in a positive way so

i will overcome these doubts

and look if you're capable of doing that

which is pretty that's pretty fantastic

that you were able to do that if you're

capable of doing that

then the doubt that you have maybe i

can't get past this or maybe it's been

too long

what you already did was herculean

compared to that

yeah yeah that's true you have to

remember that yeah

um you know

here's the thing about the length of

time let's deal with that doubt

it doesn't matter how long it's been

except that

the doubt is stronger

the longer it's been there

so the only factor is that the doubt is

stronger but there's nothing else that's

limiting you

and once you let in that idea then we

can deal with the right problem okay

the doubt is stronger but

should it actually matter if you're

actually convinced that this is a

mind-body issue

then it's all about what your mind's

thinking no matter how long it's been

yeah yeah

now here's the question i have for you

and you're

you're very uh you're very easygoing

you're very agreeable

i don't want you to just agree with me

i don't here's what i don't want i don't

want you to agree with me and then go

home and doubt

yeah

we got we gotta you gotta push back

okay

so

of these things that i've said have we

moved the needle at all on any of them

and um okay if we haven't i think the

length of time

that

i've been in pain

there's a little bit of doubt there

where i think

is my

brain even capable of rethinking things

do i have a pattern that's so ingrained

it's not so much i think my brain is

broken

but more the patterns of thinking are so

ingrained that um

can i change it

so i don't think i have a faulty

functioning brain but

okay so what how are you thinking about

this in terms of things being ingrained

is that a neural pathways kind of um

argument or what what what yeah i think

so that

it's just become such a pattern that um

they don't even know how to think in a

different way i don't know how to put it

together

and so let me pose let me let me pose an

alternative viewpoint though

that i just want you to consider i don't

expect you to just accept it yeah

you could say that you're you're stuck

in a way

but we could describe that stuckness in

different ways you could describe it as

i'm stuck in neural pathways

or i'm stuck in psychological experience

or i'm stuck in biology in some way

but i want to add to the list

you're just stuck in a mindset

so i wanna i wanna help you consider

is it possible

that you never knew there was a

different mindset

and as a result you've never had a

chance to think differently not even a

chance

yeah i think that's for sure i think

that's the case

so then if that's the case

and and i hear you've got some certainty

about that

mm-hmm your where your doubt is is

but can i really learn to think

differently anyway

did you see how i just i pinpointed the

doubt a little bit there yeah

so now now what we want to think about

is this

if we know

that human beings are capable of

changing their mindsets

and we know that their mindsets

can change all kinds of things yeah and

you're a human being

then we've got a nice

logical loop that tells us you can do it

the question now is

is not can you do it the question is

what do you need to be able to do it

yeah yeah exactly that's that's the

question and here

go ahead learning other things so i

should be able to learn

right see that's the thing what you need

is new information yeah

and that's what i'm here to provide yeah

the new information for example it i

would say it's probably

in a lot of ways new information

that you could have the perception of

pelvic misalignment

without it even actually being true

let alone the fact that it's irrelevant

anyway because the pelvis can just move

yeah

yeah so it we're feeding new information

and the idea of take that word

misalignment and throw it out of your

vocabulary with respect to this for the

rest of your life

that's new information

do you do you agree with that i don't

yeah yeah i know i totally agree with it

okay yeah

um

the idea that

these things lead to headaches i want to

tell you they're a trigger for the

headaches

but there's no reason they should lead

to headaches

i'm not i'm not saying what you're

thinking is completely implausible or

logical but it happens to be incorrect

yeah

which is good

so

it's

your doubt will start to come down when

you realize you don't have to be

superhuman

you don't have to do anything all that

different the only thing that we need to

do is change the information

that is inside you

so

as symptoms come up

um well i'll ask you when you were going

through this and you were

reducing your doubt that symptoms would

creep back in

how would you

look at it how would you deal with it

well first of all i would fall back on

the fact that i'm just gathering new

information it was like everything was a

science experiment right i was like okay

so now i'm getting this symptom

and i would think through i would go

through my i mean essentially i would go

through the the process that i tell

everybody to go through now i didn't

have it defined that way but i would

kind of go through my columns

uh i would first go to emotions i would

think well wait a minute hold on i have

to entertain the possibility

that this did come from emotion because

i've seen it before

yeah

so

what's the timing

was something happening

what broad theme was there

what was it what was high stakes

i would go through the very system that

i'm telling you to do yeah that's the

first thing i would do then i would say

well wait

are there doubts that have come in that

are actually

even if they sound plausible are

actually unreasonable and i can dismiss

them

and i would go through i would

articulate the doubts

and then hammer them you know you've

articulated some very good doubts here

and the question is

are we addressing it enough you know you

said your pelvis does actually go out of

alignment

i'm challenging that i'm saying i'm not

with all due respect i'm not saying it

you know thinking you were thinking

anything wrong or or even that what i

think matters more than you but i want

you to at least consider maybe that's

actually not true

yeah

maybe it isn't and as i say you know

maybe if you took a room full of people

and checked them they'd all be

in different places with their pelvis i

can guarantee you that's true yeah in

fact that's what we found people studied

they studied people who were

asymptomatic people were just not having

symptoms at all

and they're they were completely

asymmetrical

their mris were train wrecks a lot of

the time or sometimes they were totally

fine but there was just no correlation

whatsoever

okay now let's move to you you i'm just

going to go through a couple of other

doubts that you raised

you said science and logic as as a nurse

you were trained using science and logic

but some of it turned out to be quite

inaccurate

so you're skeptical of science and logic

not not really but you're skeptical of

certain applications of it what i want

to tell you is here in terms of what we

do we will throw out anything

that that proves to not be true

that's true science

so i mean would you agree with that that

uh if we are willing to throw out

anything that proves to not be true

and we are not going to ignore any data

that does prove to be true

right yeah does that sound like better

science

yeah for sure it does

good

see that's the way that we could dismiss

that you could say i'm allowed to be

skeptical of anything that's wrong

the good news about my system and the

way we're talking about it is we're not

going to throw out anything that's

that's

that's correct

and we're not going to accept anything

that is partially wrong or fully wrong

yeah

so i would say you don't need to you

don't need to believe in science uh in a

quote sort of way where you believe in

every

bit of science there are studies that

are flawed or just don't make sense

yeah

or had a goal in mind like a

predetermined goal and set out to prove

it and then

fudge the numbers even that happens

yeah

but if we are being our own scientists

nobody can corrupt our study

yeah no that's that's a really good

point um yeah

that's that's the goal be your own

scientist yeah

be your own logician you don't need to

you don't need anybody else

yeah you can rely on

your own data input and um just what's

going on yeah right and and you asked me

how did i do this

that's how i did it

i was my own scientist and look i got a

lot of that from sarno that's how he was

i don't think he ended up being totally

right about everything because he didn't

get far enough if he had had more time i

think he probably would have gotten

there because because he was operating

that way yeah i agree i i don't agree

with everything i

his

oxygen

right

we we've talked about that i think over

you know comments and stuff but he he

uh that's one thing that can happen from

mind-body experience but it never made

sense to me that it would be the full

picture yeah and i think if he had

studied it longer he would have gotten

there i mean he he's the one who

introduced me to candace pert who got me

the answer i just not sure if he read

closely enough

yeah

right

um okay now here's another doubt you

bring up there's many people that have

hard luck had hard lives and

or less nurturing environments although

i do think you underestimate the degree

to which you went through a lot so keep

that in mind

and then you say well why why do i have

this and they don't

here's my answer to that and you're

going to use your science and logic mind

to decide and to push back on it and

we're going to have more discussions

about this

different people have different

psychological defenses

and

the mind-body defense is the most

sophisticated defense it's the one that

comes in for the people who are the most

developed

so some of those people

they may not be developed enough for it

i don't mean that as an insult to them

but they might be using a more primitive

defense right

if they're able to use that more

primitive defense the brain is always

looking for the most efficient response

it's going to use

the easiest one at its disposal

this one the mind body one is the one

that is used for goodists

the ones who have developed further

so the answer to this is

you

you have this defense because of who you

are

and that's not a bad thing

in fact it's a defense to feel proud of

it's the best defense

that's good yeah

yeah

i mean you

you should feel proud of it but but it

also can help you distinguish why you

versus not them

you know you talked about this um

this friend of yours who had a very

tragic thing you can talk about it if

you want i'm not gonna i won't expose

that information unless you want to but

um

she had very tragic circumstances and

she didn't have this stuff and you think

oh she's she's so balanced why am i not

that's perception you're a very balanced

person yourself in fact i would argue

that the most balanced people tend to

have mind-body issues

they are balancing not only their own

lives but everybody else's

you're like hyper balanced yeah

certainly hyper vigilant yeah

and we're hyper vigilant because we're

scanning the horizon for i don't want to

make a mistake

i don't want to hurt anybody

i want to do my best

etc etc etc

and that all leads to this defense why

this

so i've shared this with people before

i've worked with people

in therapy who come in with no mind-body

issues

and as they get better they actually

tend to develop some mind-body issues oh

interesting yeah and then then of course

i help them get over that but the the

way that i see it is there's a

developmental perspective going on here

when people become

this

look there may be some people who will

take uh some offense to this but i

gonna call a spade a spade

what i've seen is that as people become

better people

they're more likely to develop mind body

issues oh interesting yeah

and it fits with the whole goodest idea

i mean i got that from sarno originally

but i've kind of reverse engineered it

and looked back and thought wow yeah

this this actually happened you know

uh

i i i

i'm not gonna talk about the specifics

of this but

i was working with somebody in my family

who

uh they you know they weren't the

easiest person in certain ways but they

were getting better and better because

they were doing therapy work themselves

and then they developed back pain

and then i helped them with the back

pain and they moved past that and now

they get to be the better person without

the back pain and that's the goal but

is this helpful in giving you

new information like we're talking about

yeah

yeah it is and i think

coming from somebody with your

background in psychology i respect that

as well but it gives it more weight for

me

yeah yeah and it makes sense that it

would because i can describe to you why

yeah

yeah you've seen it you've worked with

lots of people

yeah

and you understand the

the whole mechanism of it and yeah so it

does

it just gives it more weight for me yep

okay i'm just looking at the time i

wanna i wanna see if we can squeeze in

one more doubt and then we'll just

continue to have this discussion it's it

is an open discussion this is the way we

do it okay uh let's see i'm looking at

your notes

ah okay so what if this is just one more

thing that that will not work what if

this science this science is not

accurate either i think we've kind of

already solved that because it's not my

science

it's your science

your science can't fail

nobody else gets to tell you what is

scientifically true or logically true

i think that's one of the keys to you

getting better is throw out everybody's

opinions everybody's

including mine yeah

let's start to weigh it for yourself it

kind of brings it back to the power

thing for me that

i take my own power and i take the

direction

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of where i'm going with this and what i

understand

not that's right people are telling me

that's right yeah well i couldn't i

couldn't ask for a better lead-in to the

next

session the power column session we're

gonna keep working on these doubts

but uh and there are some ones that you

raised about like you know do we have

more do people like me or

you know me

uh have

uh more receptor sites or higher

concentrations of peptides that kind of

thing

um

that all relates to randomness versus

what you know the just the power of the

mind if you believe in the power of the

mind you can get over all these doubts

so we're gonna keep working at it but

you did a great job today and um

it's always a pleasure i'm i'm honored

by it and we're gonna keep working at

this during the course of this week

we'll answer these

and then we'll start building towards

the power column which we'll get to next

week

okay so so i'll just continue with the

looking at the doubt and

yeah and i want you to think about this

session i want you to think about as as

your own scientist as your own

person going through logic puzzles

what's making sense to you and what is

not and it does not matter what anyone

thinks including me

you're you are

you're in a relationship with you about

what you think and that's what's causing

or not causing things

so it's all about what's going on in

your mind let's

let that flow freely let me know what

that is and we'll

and we'll combat that okay

sound good sounds good yeah all right

thanks diane i look forward to

continuing our work next week okay great

thank you so much dan for all of us

oh it's my pleasure okay bye-bye okay

bye

well i feel like i say this all the time

but i'm i'm in all the people who come

on and and do this um i do feel that i

could do it too but i know that it takes

a an openness and a vulnerability that i

really appreciate it just so happens

that the population i work with is

particularly good at this sort of thing

and diane's such a pleasure you can see

it all over the place but one of the

things that i loved about this session

as i mentioned is that she already

articulated so many of those doubts

and we were able to look at well then

how do we combat it but one of the

things that i found was the most

significant finding in all of this was

to say to her hey

you get to be your own scientist

we do not have to trust the science of

other people that could be skewed

a true scientist throws out information

that is bad

and does not throw out any information

that is good

that's science if we're doing it right

we're going to be good scientists and

diane clearly can do that this is all

about getting her the right information

and that is how you get to a point where

you won't be skeptical anymore or have

doubts the last thing and this goes into

the lead into the power column work

we'll do next session

is the idea that

it's hard for her to feel certain about

anything because it's attached to her

humbleness and her

uh modesty and so we're gonna need to

work on that next session but we've

really got a good beat on i think what's

going on with her

i hope that was enjoyable for you i had

a great time and i think it was very

helpful for diane and hopefully for all

of you so if you haven't already click

subscribe ring the bell for

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you