Book talk Esther LSD4 part 1

whatever

okay what we were talking about

uh yeah I looked through I still had a

two likes I think that you know three

different ones though it's I don't know

how you feel about writers breaking the

fourth wall but I thought it was really

interesting the way that Sally did it

because she discusses contemporary

novels wow you're writing the

Contemporary novel yeah

um

um I don't know how she did it but I

think through Alice because Alice is a

writer as well that's interesting uh she

threw that in yeah but she did it in a

way that wasn't like weird or cringy or

oh I I thought it was pretentious you

did why I I hate it I absolutely hate it

I mean I guess it's sort of the way the

author

um well I already have said pretentious

in the dislike so you don't need to

write a down for me but you can write

your own like

um

I hate it when authors uh I guess well

they're using it to vend but then it

still comes across like they're just

like oh I don't need I hate contemporary

contemporary books but here's my book

and buy it

like it's it's like if you hate it that

much no one is forcing you to write

another contemporary book but it's sort

of like they're saying all contemporary

books are like so many of them are so

bad but mine's the exception like I I

don't get it like well I understand that

if you generally like hated it maybe

write an autobiography I think that that

would be a much better place to vent

about such uh like the parts you hate uh

in the industry but it always just

expect

but

I didn't feel like Alice represented

Sally Rooney in that way and I also but

maybe that's because I've read it such a

long time ago is that I don't recall her

breaking the fourth wall to say that she

doesn't like contemporary in general I

just

remember her talking about contemporary

novels and like

um

just mentioning them or something they

came up I think Alice said that uh

contemporary

books have like the genre has become so

boring because the authors who

um who got famous

um of a fish they got famous ages ago so

then the Contemporary like their daily

life that the author is right about is

no longer anything representing normal

people

um that's what she was kind of

complaining about and I do think that's

very much

um Sally Rooney writing through Alice

because she's so it fit in there but

um maybe maybe she wrote it in there

because the author herself is also

struggling uh with a bit of feeling like

she doesn't want to change because of

her success because her books have been

really successful

um

but it it felt a bit

like I don't read contemporary so it's a

bit hard for me to say whether she has

any right in that or not but then I felt

like Alice as a character also doesn't

represent an average person so for Alice

to say that she hates contemporary

authors because they're not the average

person but then she's not her

as well but then again she hates herself

too so yeah it's conflicting so maybe

Sally wrote her in that way because she

wants it's to me it felt like her way of

her venting about her own struggles as

well but that might be very much

projection because I don't know anything

about Sally Rooney no me neither I I've

only read her books that's all

uh but I do get what you're saying

upholding a structure that she's

criticizing which makes her less

credible

yeah or at least

um it feels a bit like disingenuous down

like trying to punch down other people

while still getting all the Privileges

of it yourself like not actually wanting

to change it but wanting to complain

about it anyway like it felt a bit

I that's why I I personally always

dislike it but you can write it as a

like for yourself

um

I think that's a general like this like

for people that don't read contemporary

I think because I I actually when I was

looking up the the genre I I found a lot

of books that I liked in the list really

and I never knew that they were a

contemporary so maybe that's I've gotten

gradually like used to this or something

but how did you because I contemporaries

talking about the daily life now in the

end she mentions a bit covet I found

that to be so unnecessary like she just

threw that in after a year it's like oh

having a baby in in covid and like

I just thought not necessary it doesn't

need to be like a covid novel we've

already seen enough covid novels yeah

well I guess she's trying to make it a

bit relatable

in that sense and

um I didn't mind that part that much

because okay

um I think it's I think she put it in

there in that way uh because

because it's uh like how do we say this

like they have struggles then but they

still have struggles like even though

things might have changed a lot and we

as readers might perceive like oh they

suddenly changed a lot for the better

because we didn't see that part or like

maybe we consider it changing for the

better I don't maybe that's my own

business and projection there but that

just to show that there's still

struggles going on there and that might

have been the easiest way to throw that

in I guess yeah

how the thing is we talk a lot but then

how do you know yeah no that's fine

anyway I mean but at the end of this I

don't even know if our teachers actually

watch the whole thing so we'll just

we'll just take it we'll see

um because I just wrote breaking the

fourth wall and like but that's also

um related to another the last like I

had it's like it's kind of but I'm not a

philosophy kind of person I found it to

be an approachable way to write about

big themes really related to philosophy

to make them easier to understand

because you're getting to know like

certain principles through the emails

and them discussing it and going back

and forth is how I stand in what they're

discussing but also how other people

view the same situations is very

interesting to me because I don't really

get to like think outside of my own head

or read about what other people think

I do that all the time because I read

books all the time but like it still

keeps surprising me

people so I thought that was

um a like for me as you know I like

about it because it was very like it

wasn't deep it was very superficial

knowledge about philosophy I think like

think of that themselves but being that

explicit made it interesting to me

and it was it it wasn't a bad addition I

I didn't hated I

I definitely didn't hate it I didn't

dislike it I I thought it was a little

bit positive a bit neutral but on on the

positive side as well I didn't really

enjoy it either because I don't I don't

know this is why I don't read

contemporary that much because

um

I I don't like

um

when things get a bit too too

like too braggy or like it feels

sometimes it just feels like okay why

why are we talking about these

simple things that should be simple and

then we're making it out to be as if

it's like like the big brain moment but

to me they're just very simple Concepts

and I don't know I'm not trying to be

like who I'm I'm so smart but then

sometimes I feel like they're making

things not to be bigger than they

actually are and then I'm gonna sort of

like okay

okay

yeah but it's kind of I I didn't mind it

I didn't mind it that much I didn't mind

it

I guess it's like looking for something

that isn't there sometimes it can seem

like you're

no no I think I get what you're saying

it's like making things more difficult

than they need to be because it's just

the way that it is and there's not much

to it or something

yeah or just like

um yeah just making things bigger

but like way bigger than they are

um when sometimes well I mean sometimes

things are that big but just because

they're big doesn't mean it's not

important I think like just because

things are might be that big doesn't

mean I want to give good importance but

then again I guess other people would

want to do that but then to me it just

it doesn't do it for me personally but I

guess why

for other people and for the characters

it could be yeah yeah

um I've been adding to the list because

you mentioned Helix as a dislike so it's

just feeling yeah

and in addition like the Menace plot

devices and I just wrote Alice but uh we

can get back you can start with Felix if

you want you have anything to say

um well I just generally really dislike

him

I did write some things about him I

think I I

probably did but like because I wrote

like chapter thoughts but I just yeah

the the thing is

there's nothing good to be said about

this guy and it's actually I want to

write a puzzle just like the puzzle is

the chemistry between Phoenix and Alex

like where is it where is it I don't the

puzzle for me is how they had such poor

chemistry like their top they're only

talking

um like they're answering and and

conversing in short such short words and

sentences but then it's like they're

still attracted to each other like yeah

it just puzzles me because it's not even

the the writer doesn't even give it off

like oh they're just like physically

attracted or something like there

doesn't seem to be any attraction apart

from tension because I I felt

uncomfortable reading it and I felt

anxious reading it so the only thing

um their interactions the only thing

that it gave me was tension and anxiety

but somehow that was chemistry or it's

yeah because it turned out to be

chemistry or something but I was just

very uncomfortable and I didn't like

Felix because

I personally if a man like that would

come into my life I'd be like stay at

least

like three meters away from me at all

times like so yeah I just

no I agree with you because I think I

that's also a puzzle of mine is like

what's the type of intimate connection

that they have because you're right they

do there seems to be like according to

Sally the way she's writing there seems

to be an intimate understanding of them

between each other it's like they

intimately know each other but we don't

see that being written out and we don't

understand how that happened especially

from we went from zero to a hundred real

quick yeah when they went to like Italy

and whatever happened there and also uh

he even said that that there was no

physical attraction per se they just

sort of like happened upon each other

and but he didn't even want a serious

relationship so how did we end up here

and I I don't

I don't understand is it like from

Adam's perspective if it was written as

a bad situationship where the girl like

is using it as a way to

um

uh because I thought that was gonna

happen at first like you have these

situationships where a girl will go to

uh emotionally like not available person

and just

um use them to be to just get a little

bit of intimacy because the girl also

doesn't want real intimacy because

that's also addressed some point in the

book that

um

also pushing him away like she doesn't

actually want to be a relationship as

well which is it's it's like fine if you

have a certain understanding about that

but there's no communication between

them there's nothing that seems like

intimacy they're only just tolerating

each other to in like in my opinion they

were tolerating each other but then

they're still

keeping like why why would you be with a

person that

you generally just like don't really

like that much I would just keep that

around like if the only thing

that person brings to you is bad

feelings I mean for Alice I sort of get

it because she's

uh well

I don't get it but she's written as a

character who

does it who wants to like who's

attracting someone like that because she

um she feels bad about herself so she

wants to feel better

yeah I've talked about that a little bit

before it's also mentioned in the book

that she always wants to feel better so

then you want to listen to groom

um but then I just I still don't get it

because there was still

no chemistry there was nothing there

that made me feel like there was

anything between them apart from General

disinterest like not even hate just

disinterest like nothing there

you know I I it puzzled me yeah no I

agree

um let me see I also go into patterns

I found it interesting

how there seems to be like constant

conflict between Eileen and her family

and especially Lola her sister but and

and we get like the flashbacks with like

the traumatic past which makes it more

relatable and understandable but my

puzzle and like

whatever like question with that is like

why would she even still associate with

her family because she says that like

there's still love between her and her

mother but I don't understand why she

she said at some point like despite

despite it all

um she she still loves her family and

although her family doesn't show it she

hopes she hopes or she likes to think

that they love her too but there's

nothing to show for it so I'm just like

girl you need therapy like I'm reading

it and I'm like you need to stand up for

yourself like this is

because it's not it's not it's they're

not doing anything for her to show that

love and I don't think I think I don't

know where she gets the perception from

that there is love like that's kind of

messed up because if that's that's mommy

issues or something that you have the

results before she becomes a mom

and I think it's actually also a pattern

like Elena and her family

um you can clearly tell like the way

um her interactions with her family were

written

um her family doesn't have any

expectation of her

um like they just always assume the

worst for her like that things will not

work out and that's something that she's

internalized even further to the point

where she also thinks it of herself so

I'm I I just every time I read an

interaction with her and her family I'm

just like she needs therapy because

there's issues here like she's

internalized what her family tells her

because her family constantly puts her

in the second place and always being

less worthy and just generally not being

that

um

successful and making it seem as if

that's just to be expected from her and

she's internalized it to that's also

like she doesn't even she doesn't even

realize that she can aim higher than

that because it's that internalized and

that's also uh it's it's a pattern that

you can see in everything and everything

in our life

so but the same with like the guys as

well it's like you see that there is

something that needs to be resolved like

the main character conflict I guess that

they have to overcome

um which they don't in the book of

course

um but like for

um what's the other guy's name Simon

yeah Simon yeah Simon he has something

going on and like feelings he's very

um I don't want to diagnose him but he's

very morally created all over the place

so it's very like yeah

something needs to happen I think one of

them was in therapy no but something

because it seems like a cycle to bound

to repeat itself yeah

yeah

it does be yeah

because Simon I

there's not a whole lot to be said about

Simon as a character like I generally

dislike Felix Alice I I think like she's

very egotistical at times and Aileen is

just a perfectionistic

person who doesn't like to take any

chances or aim like aim higher for

herself in any way but then Simon I'm

just like appeasing just he's just like

using he just wants to be Dependable but

that's his entire personality yeah he

just wants to be dependable

but there's nothing more to say about

him he seems to be like the third person

that wants to keep the peace like

um he's trying to make both sides like

witches in this book is like Alice and

Eileen both have yeah

um with and then like he seems to be

kind of like a people pleaser someone

that doesn't want to like take up too

much space uh that their own definitely

you know yeah

that's interesting because he takes it

very far but his like because he I had

that as a puzzle as well is like him as

a Christian I can't place like God in

general in this book was very

interesting that's a pattern for me is

like in the beginning like they're both

kind of atheist agnostic Alice and

Eileen and Simon's the only one that's

really like Christian although yeah

premarital sex as a Christian I don't

know

um yeah yeah it depends on what kind of

Christian yeah

I Simon has explained as a very normal

like uh very easy going Christian so I

guess yeah

explained in that way but they still

call him a freak of course

but like at the end of the book like

Alice especially seems to be moving more

towards God but in a different way

yeah and Aileen also is

more interested in it like she's

interested in the intimacy aspect of it

um

so

it is touched upon but I don't feel like

it's really explored no that's true yeah

I think that's also that's also Patrick

in this book everything could have been

flashed out more flat but fleshed out

more but that's what I think in general

is like these kinds of books can be

super long and still you wouldn't touch

upon everything in extreme detail

um let me see if I have

um

oh well yeah

I I have another puzzle about Alice

because she's sometimes she's just like

really whining about her life how she's

so privileged and then like she doesn't

feel like she deserves this and then I'm

just like okay why why don't you just

donate some of your money then yeah but

I don't think we understand how because

she's so rich I didn't understand at the

beginning

like how would you get this rich off of

one book sale

I guess it was it was a really good book

or something yeah no I don't if you

mentioned in the book like how much she

got for just the book sale but I and

then of course she has interviews and

everything and then she earns money by

that from that as well but I generally

but the millions I think they said

yeah she's rich rich and then because

especially that and then knowing that

Eileen is struggling and then not paying

more yeah she doesn't help out yeah

that's that's that puzzles me because

I'm I'm like you know that your best

friend you know your best friend because

it said that Amy doesn't like she barely

makes like 20K a year so it's like why

don't you help her out because she said

that Aileen

um at the end you know Aileen said that

she doesn't have the money or the time

to to travel uh because she like to

Alice because during the time that she

was in like the mental health facility

she was already paying the bus for every

time and that was practically all of her

money and then I was just like why

didn't you come well because she also

she used all of her money she

practically couldn't come in and this is

Rich and she could have went to her

friend or she could have sent the money

but that's again a pattern where there's

no communication because I don't think

both of these best friends they don't

even know

um what is actually going on and what

the other like what their best friend is

actually struggling with they don't know

because they don't I had that as a

pattern

um

they just generally they don't tell each

other what is actually going in on in

their life you can tell it as well in

the letters because in the letters

there's still uh you could tell it with

Aileen especially because then she gets

so moody and uh dark in her writing but

then she doesn't say

like she for example if something bad

happened with her and Simon it'd be like

oh yeah me and Simon like no you don't

need to get a double bed for us or

something but then the entire letter is

Moody and she only weighs one sentence

about

um what is actually making her that

Moody but she doesn't actually Express

that like there's

no communication like whatsoever they

don't know what's going on in their life

they only know their moods I think

they're in the emails especially that's

why the there's such a difference

between their in real life like

communication and emails is because I

feel like they're very

logical in emails I mean you still see a

bit of the emotions seeping through but

like you don't know what's going on in

their emotional life or like their

personal life yeah I agree yeah they're

just the emails are just

um very venti like they is it to vent

their emotions but without actually ever

touching on why they're feeling that way

yeah then both parties never actually

know what's actually going actually

actually no what's going on in their

life

um

but they only just know that they feel

bad and then they can't help because

they don't know they they don't actually

I need to stop saying actually

but uh yeah they

just no communication like at all

oh yeah it's very limiting to me though

yeah me too because they're they're not

children or teens they're not even young

adults they're 14 year olds

yeah

I guess it's still like room for growth

at that age

that is weird because I feel like and I

don't want to say like I'm better at

certain things because I struggle with a

lot of things but I'd say I don't

struggle with emotional vulnerability or

something it's something that I feel

like they struggle with

they do a lot yeah

and they struggle with emotional

vulnerability but also

um they also struggle with

um soothing themselves in their own

emotions that's something that was

really unrealistic to me because I'm

really

um like I think that's something I'm

really good at but like they don't know

how to

um so if I face to their own emotions

but I think that's also a very

Millennial thing

I think Jency is generally a lot better

at that I think but that's the

generalization

um I did have another pattern

um let me see if it was actually already

sad

oh well is it already in the dislike

I had a pattern

um which is a really short one in the

meantime while you're looking is yeah

um I like but that's in general what I

like because I appreciate that in real

life as well is the descriptions of

everyday beauty is like the flowers and

like the scenery and like descriptions

of the house and the where they're

situated like I I liked how that was

done

oh yeah I like that too I like that too

I couldn't read a book that doesn't have

a thought yeah no true because then it

just feels very

like bare to me I think

[Music]

not real world building as they say yeah

and I think it fits the book as well

because practically the book is about

finding Beauty where you can even though

the world sucks so yeah I guess the

title as well like

how would you interpret beautiful world

beautiful world where are you I

I would interpret it as in that the

beauty is here in the world but that you

have to look for it like it's about a

mentality because if you choose to close

off to the beauty that is there and the

good that is there it's very easy to do

so and then you just don't see any

anything positive anymore

I think it's a pretty message but yeah I

know about you I think

um but that it might be the same as what

you're saying we might be saying the

same thing but for to me it seems like

in society there is this preaching of

this path this beautiful world we're

working towards which doesn't exist and

these people have to find their own way

and their own beautiful world it's like

oh he has to go to school you have to

get a family you have to blah blah blah

but they're defining Beauty for

themselves

but I guess that kind of plays into what

you were saying as well it's very simple

right just it's a little bit different

yeah

similar hmm

yeah because you have more of the

cultural aspect and I'm just like yeah

you know you have to look around and see

beauty no but that's true because the we

not sustain that's the wrong word but we

tend to

get satisfaction from

things that aren't really good for

ourselves or something I don't know how

to explain it but like if you were to

like experience

um pleasure by just being out and just

seeing the Sun and that I think that

would make our lives much more enjoyable

than rather than trying to like go for a

certain degree because people are

attending you that you need to go for

that and that's going to make you

probably miserable miserable if you

don't want that so I guess what I'm

saying is that it depends on where you

find pleasure is how you live your life

and what you find

yeah and I think the title is also about

just seeing that like there are always

small things that you can uh find beauty

in like there's always things you can be

grateful yeah

yeah

we have 10 more minutes I have one

cultural note I think one two oh I

didn't have any cultural notes so you

get started no but the thing is is I

don't even know if it's culturally

applicable but what I noticed is I don't

even know because most of Sally Rooney's

books don't really go into Irish culture

much they're just like a background

the thing yeah

um but like if I thought it was very

telling the house prices and the housing

prices because that's very apparent in

Ireland I know it's apparent in the

Netherlands too but I thought it was

interesting to see

in this book and the degree which

Sally talks about it

especially because Alice wanting to buy

this house is very interesting

plenty of money yeah I know true so

she's not part of the housing crisis

problem but I think Simon and Eileen

were because they were together and then

they were looking for something for when

the kid comes yeah

just write it down all right

well it's not really cultural but the

there was one part in the in the book

when you know when they were all

together and then they said they went to

the beach and it was sunny and people

were out and I was like

um

every time I've gone to the beach it's

just wet and cold and I've never seen

people sit there on the beach and have a

beach life like yeah yeah

I was like that's unrealistic it's not

cultural it's just a joke yeah no no but

you're right though like the way that

Irish people perceive weather is

different because like this this summer

hasn't been the best like last year was

better

um it's been very wet and it's been very

all over the place so

maybe it was one of those like Precious

sunny days that everything because the

Irish people do get very happy when it's

like very sunny because it doesn't

happen that often it doesn't happen that

much no yeah I also wrote down Mayo GAA

but I don't remember what I meant by

Mayo Mayo is a county but GAA is like

Gaelic

a sports thing no

I I honestly I don't know a little about

Gaelic Sports because I'm not that

sporty of a person

so

oh I can't hear you that does a lot of

GAA Sports

um oh yeah Gaelic Maybe

oh yeah they were a little bit like the

cultural aspects to me weren't really

that noticeable

um it was only a little bit noticeable

like sometimes she'd mention like

streets but that sounds really culture

that's just picking a location yeah

so like I barely noticed that it was

placed like in Ireland yeah no true but

like like the setting like the pubs and

the drinks and like I guess the way that

they communicate I don't know if it's

typically Irish the the characters we

saw

um but I guess some of the things we

talked about could be like takeaways for

cultural things as well

perhaps

um I did think that like every time they

had a get-together like for example on

the birthday I thought it was very

awkward like I read it and it all

I thought the conversations were really

cold and sort of awkward like they call

like sometimes the conversations weren't

written out but then when they were I

just was like uh I would not want to be

there but maybe that's just because

I don't like social stuff like social

events like birthdays where I don't know

all the people but

yeah it just felt very cold but that was

the same thing

um which I had with Alice Alison Felix

like all their conversations seemed so

cold but then it was perceived like

there was some sort of

like what what's the word I'm looking

for like there was something there and

I'm just like I just I it just the

conversation was so cold what do you

mean they like each other but you know

credibility oh yeah no because I I was

looking through the clothes I was

thinking which is my favorite because I

like oh we can finish off by saying our

favorite quote but I caught because

there's so many good quotes in here

which it's interesting because in

general I didn't like this book The Best

of hers but like normal people and

conversations with friends are also also

very quotable

um yeah they're just very good I'm

looking you can look for one as well if

you want and then we'll just finish with

that because we have five more minutes I

don't have any more notes if you don't

have any more I oh my God it's gonna be

hard to find a good quote and I might

have some notes but I don't think

they'll really add anything to

like anything good to this conversation

anymore

yeah because I think everything that

everything has already pretty much been

said

um

but

I don't because the problem is I've got

so much

um I was annotating this book and I've

got so much uh annotation so it's going

to be really hard to find something

I just underline I could find them quite

easily but I I've got I've got um

I felt like uh

let me

like I underlined them and then I

highlight some parts depending on how I

feel about it but there's not really any

rules

um

oh

I think I have four which I really like

oh my god I've just only found one but I

don't know if that's the best

no because I wrote them in my notes

actually I like typed everything I

underlined yeah I'm I'm just like going

through them I can I can tell them and

then you can tell me if any of the ones

are the ones that you remember writing

yeah sure okay the first one is like

very early on is we can't

conserve everything and especially not

social relations without altering their

nature nature resting some parts of

their interaction with time in an

unnatural way because I think like

friendship wise a lot of people want

things that stay the same and we've

talked about how the characters seem to

want their social relations to stay the

same yeah they themselves have changed I

thought that was interesting especially

applicable to some things in my life

um

I do like that quote

uh oh go on go on

well I do like their clothes because

this also uh was it Alice that wrote it

I think it probably was because she's

the one who was

um like messing around more with

um

there was this quote that she said or

maybe it's not a quote but it's

important part in the book she said that

um

I don't remember exactly how she said it

but she practically said that because of

certain expectations like

um

if we

find a person and then we put

expectation on that person then like for

example if it's a brother but

say it the way I want to but uh

she's practically saying the

expectations sometimes ruins

um your connection even though as a

friend it might have worked out but then

if it's your brother or your dad or like

if the connection is different then it

doesn't work out because the expectation

is different because you're just I think

she said it in a way of like

um

like filling up the expectation I can't

maybe let me try to see if I can find

the clothes it's somewhere in the

beginning I just didn't say it's chapter

two we only have one more minute though

oh god well we could

and she says it is on page 16.

oh I didn't have even have it

oh my God

yeah it's it's going to be a very long

book talk but

that's good it's good there was plenty

of things to say

it and then and you are I can edit it

but it will take a while I don't know

when you're planning on handing this and

what

I'm not planning on handling it in

really soon or anything like I'll do it

whenever I'm ready you will you still be

on next year yeah right

what do you mean like in school

I'm gonna start my uh third year

internship because last year uh it

didn't work out because I was trying to

do it at the same time as my minor which

was