Guidance Counselor 2.0 + How to Tackle Salary Negotiations

Alrighty. Do this.

Do Good morning everybody.

Good morning. Good morning. We are live.

I'm just dropping into the Torque

Discord real quick and alerting the

troops.

See here.

>> Yeah, you guys are getting me early this

morning. I'm on the West Coast, so it's

the

>> half past 7 right now.

>> Oh, well, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, you're

you're uh you're the West Coast crew.

Whenever I whenever I try to book

somebody from the West Coast, they're

all like, "Ah, it's a little early." I'm

like, "Well, I like to stay consistent

on times." So,

>> yeah. Well, I think that's smart for

your audience, especially if you're

live. And, uh,

>> it's not a problem for me, really. I

love I wanted to be on your show, so

>> I love it. Here I am.

>> I love it. Well, uh, good morning,

y'all. Please say hey. Would love to

hear from you. Um, we are back from, uh,

with another edition of Guidance

Counselor 2.0. I know. Um and uh I'm

pumped for this one. I'm pumped for this

one. I think it's going to be uh very

applicable to everybody who tunes in now

or listens in the future. Um but before

we get started, as I always say, please

say, "Hey." Um would love to hear from

you. I see the comments already trick

trickling in. Um and uh you know, I I I

tell folks this and I was telling I was

telling John this backstage that I mean,

this thing's kind of morphed. Uh uh you

know, really uh I have actually I can go

ahead and say I've been doing this for

six years. um because March of 2020 is

when COVID hit and uh and that's when I

started to do this show. And so it is

March. So we've been doing this thing

for six years now. And uh and so I am

pumped uh for this guest and and and

it's like I tell folks like like this is

a networking event like flat out. Um uh

please connect with John. Um I will drop

his link afterwards. Um but please

connect with John. Say hey. um uh you

know, he and I were chatting backstage.

He he's a fantastic resource. Um and and

I'm sure we'll get into it, uh briefly,

but he was a recruiter before the

internet existed, which I tell people is

a whole other ballgame. Um so I would

love to pick his brain a little bit on

what that used to look like. Um but

again, connect with people in the chat,

DM them, let them know like, "Hey, it

was good to see him on guidance

counselor 2.0 uh this morning." Um and

uh and and again just the the power of

networking in these things is is

incredibly important especially in

today's world. Before we get started as

always uh want to kind of give uh you

know kind of a quick run through. Um so

first off I am an app right hero. Um me

and my guy Jason Torres both app right

here. Check them out. Um great product,

great team. Um, also too, uh, Torque,

listen, we got a lot of things going on

in the Torque community. Uh, would love

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know, we go, I mean, we got live events

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in-person events going. Um, we also too,

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and probably just direct y'all to this

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I believe I believe that's it. Jason,

you correct me if I'm wrong, but but we

finally have like a public landing page

if if you just want to like be kept in

up to date of everything we're doing. I

know it's a lot, right? The our Discord

is averaging 10,000 messages a month.

It's it's it can be a little extreme for

people who who don't always want to be

in the chat. So, I would just go sign up

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get updates every week on what we're

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partner with conferences on discount

codes. We give away free tickets. So

definitely go join. I would love to have

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to be kept up to date when I go live

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This is my number. Also, if you have any

job search questions, I always go to

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of the unofficial sponsor of coffee

sponsor of the show, Seat Coffee.

Listen, uh Most Coffee, John, I don't

know if you knew this, but Most Coffee

is it has trace mold in it. So, there's

a founder in Nashville, uh, called

Caleb, named Caleb, called Caleb, named

Caleb. Um, and he has a company called

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community. But, uh, definitely go try

them out. Great coffee. I'm drinking it

right now. It's fantastic. All right, so

enough with me yapping again. It's great

to see everybody this morning. Uh, John,

let's give the people what they want,

man. Who are you? What do you do? and

I'll start peppering you with questions.

>> Well, thanks very much. Um, John Gates,

the salary coach. Some people call me

the sultan of salary or the professor of

pay. You know, those those are fun names

that my clients have given me throughout

the years. But, um, I am a former head

of global recruiting for Fortune 500

companies. So, I've been the guy

responsible for bringing executives into

the company, managing the internal

corporate recruiting team. Sometimes

that's dozens of recruiters all working

on things. So I can answer questions

about what it's like to be a recruiter.

Um how you should interact with them,

why recruiters are weird or do the

unexpected things sometimes.

>> But um I started salary coach about four

years ago.

>> And uh I've been a consultant though

since 2016.

And so salary coach four years ago um I

recognized that we were entering into a

pretty weird job search season. I think

we are going to have a lot of applicants

more so than stuff happening on the

recruiting front. And so I started

asking myself what can I do to help

people? Um maybe it's a new product line

for me. And I've always been the

negotiator on the other side of the

table. In my career, I've overseen

75,000 job offers, if you can believe

that.

>> Yeah, I believe it. I believe it.

>> That is a lot of them. And so, I started

tracking many years ago how much money

people were leaving on the table because

being in corporate recruiting and being

a recruiter, you you're at a lot of

career risk. Um, you're vulnerable to

being laid off. As you can probably

guess, if a company decides to get

smaller, the people who make the company

bigger are uh easy layoff targets. So, I

didn't want to be laid off any more than

normal. I wanted to justify why I was

important to the company.

>> Sure.

>> So, I started tracking how much money

people were leaving on the table.

Basically, how much money was I saving

for the company in negotiations?

And it is a shocking number. Um I find

that 80% of people don't negotiate at

all.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> You know, and those people immediately

leave money on the table.

>> Yeah.

>> 10% negotiate effectively and 10%

negotiate disastrously.

So those were my statistics as I was uh

looking at 75,000 job offers. And the

average person I think is leaving five

to six figures on the table and they

don't even know they are doing that.

Huh?

>> That's the like people like me are

able to convince you that the offer you

just accepted is the best it can be when

there's still a $20,000 signing bonus

>> out there on the table. Yeah.

>> That I didn't have to use whatever. So,

when I was a corporate recruiter, I set

a goal to replace my annual salary every

month

>> in negotiation savings.

>> Okay. Okay. And I got to be so good at

that when I was uh a you know a a

frontline contributor before I had a

team that pretty pretty soon I had a

team and pretty soon I was the inside

guy that was training the other

recruiters on how to talk about money

with candidates.

>> I love it.

>> And u so now I'm kind of like a a I'm a

I'm a former prosecutor who's become a

defense attorney. Sometimes people um

describe me like that. So I'm on I'm on

your side of the table now.

>> Yeah.

>> Helping you to get the the the most you

can get with the least amount of risk.

>> I love it. I love it. Let me ask you

this. Jason brought it up earlier in the

chat. Talk about that deep sea

helmet back there you got there. What's

up

>> helmet? Yeah. So quick story on that. I

have a friend who owns a junk store. and

he's the kind of guy that will go buy

storage units or whole estate sales or

something like that. And

>> so I was playing poker one night with

him in his junk store after hours and I

walk in and there it is sitting right

inside the door covered in dust and

cobwebs. And I said, "That is the

coolest thing I've ever seen. Surely

that's going in your living room." And

he said, "John, um I don't know if you

know this, but I own a junk store. you

should see my living room. I'm going to

sell it. So, before the night was over,

I had uh negotiated an offer on the

helmet. It was mine and took me about an

hour to polish it up, but it is super

cool. And I bought it for two reasons.

Like, one is it reminds me of the old

Scooby-Doo cartoon. You know, there was

this ghost with the,

>> you know, with the lights coming out of

the diver helmet.

>> I remember. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. But also, it reminds me that um

you need to push your limits. Every day

I look at that and it's if you can

imagine putting that thing over your

head and then going underwater with that

on, it's it is a stretch.

>> It's a stretch for your anxiety and your

fear and and everything else. And

pushing your limits is a good thing.

It's the only way we grow. And it's

uncomfortable, but it reminds me to push

my limits every day. I love that. I love

that. So, so there's so there's there's

there there's a lot to unpack based off

what you just said. Uh let's let's just

dive immediately into the salary

negotiation stuff, right? Where let's

let's start super high level. Uh let's

let's just Yeah. Why do you think people

don't negotiate?

>> Ah, that's a good that's a good

question. Why do 80% pe of people just

accept the offer that comes in? Uh I

think it's fear that is the primary um

reason. Um and people don't want to talk

about money at any step of the process.

>> Sure.

>> People,

you know, you go and apply for a job and

you see a box on the uh on the screen

that says what's your pay expectation

or your salary requirement or whatever.

And people know that if they put in the

wrong thing there, they won't get a

call,

>> right?

>> And the anxiety, it's like, "Oh, what do

I do? Do I put in a low number or do I

put in a high number? What if a what if

the number's too high?" You know, it's

like they they freak out. And then in

the phone screen, the question comes up

again

and they're afraid that if they answer

that wrong, the screener is going to

bounce them out of the process before

they even meet the hiring manager.

And then when the offer finally comes,

they're terrified that they will lose

the offer if they rock the boat. And

when I was writing my book, um,

I asked about a hundred job seekers, why

don't you know what prevents you from

negotiating?

Fear was the primary reason, but if you

kind of zoom in on that a little bit,

there's a difference in how men and

women answer this question that I found

interesting. So the men were afraid of

losing the offer

and that was the maj like it's not this

way across all men but it's like the

majority of men were concerned that they

would lose the opportunity

and the majority of women were concerned

about damaging relationships.

>> Okay?

>> So you know I'm afraid of making HR

angry. I'm afraid that I'll get off on

the wrong foot with my new boss. Um, so

the good news is the salary coach method

that I developed over time

removes those risks to a great degree.

Like

the process is very collaborative. If

anything, you're going to strengthen

your relationships coming at it the way

that I suggest.

>> What So that being said, what do you

what what do you suggest? like like

let's let's let's start to break it down

a little bit.

>> Good. So, what I suggest um overall

there's there's a a longhole process for

the salary coach method, but um I think

if you zoom out, I suggest that you

become collaborative instead of

oppositional

in a negotiation process. Most people

think that, you know, if we if we just

say how do you how do you negotiate your

pay? This is what most people think.

They think they're going to have to

become super aggressive or

>> you know they're going to have to stand

up. You you find this advice everywhere.

It says do your research, stand up for

yourself.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, when you start to hear stand

up for yourself, what does that how does

that resonate in your core?

>> Yeah. I mean, it kind of like kind of be

a bull. It's like, well, I'm going to

have to be brave and I'm going to have

to do things that I'm uncomfortable with

and I'm going to have to, especially for

me, it sounds like that's risky. I'm

going to stand up for myself and be

somebody I'm not

and be aggressive.

Most people also think that negotiation

is win lose. The best negotiations are

set up to be a win-win.

>> Sure. And

I've been on the other side of the

negotiating table for so long. Um,

there's an offer approval process that

happens before an offer ever goes out to

you,

right? So, in order for a recruiter to

extend an offer, it has to first be

approved. There are approvers.

And

so I think it's a mistake to imagine as

well that the negotiation process begins

when you have an offer.

>> Yeah.

>> You know those approval chains are often

really

um political. They're political. The

hiring manager wants to hire someone.

They are putting a price on that hire

that has to be approved by somebody else

that never met you.

So the manager is putting together a

justification for that.

And

so they're saying, "I want to hire

Taylor for this much, and I know it's

high, but this is what Taylor's going to

do for us." And they're justifying

for the approvers.

And so if you wait to negotiate

until the offer is extended, like you

can modify the offer a little bit at

that point. and you should try,

>> but

>> there's a lot that happens up to and

before that point that you have to be

mindful of that shapes the offer.

>> So, what what are we

what what are just some word tracks or

some positioning that people can have? I

mean, we want it to be collaborative. We

want folks to be able to have that

conversation, head off that conversation

early. What are some things that people

could do say

that perspective?

>> Great. Well, yeah, let's we could do a

deep dive even on this up until say the

offer is presented to you.

>> But, um, yeah, I think there are several

things. One is that you should be

positioning yourself as top talent all

along the way. And

what this looks like is, you know, top

talent is in demand. Even in this in

this weird job market that we're in, you

might be top talent and it might be

three months since you had, you know, an

interview somewhere. It can be like

that. Especially like if you're living

in the say you're living in the Silicon

Valley in California where there have

been massive AI disruptions to the

workforce in that area.

um opportunities can be thin but I think

you you can invoke competition at every

step.

>> Yeah.

>> So when you are getting phone screened

and they ask you how much money um you

need to make

>> you can provide an answer but you kind

of frame that up and this is the this is

the ballpark that other companies are

discussing with me.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I like that. So,

>> if

you have to start looking like top

talent, if you have nothing going on,

nobody's calling you, um, somebody who's

employed is going to see that as what's

wrong with this person? Why why have

they been

>> on the bench for so long? And the things

like that, they start to wonder what

they missed in looking at you that other

people have seen.

um being in competition, putting them in

competition with somebody else. Some

folks think that sounds risky that

companies are just going to back away.

But the

>> opposite it's helped me. Actually, the

reason why I got an offer at Torque is

because I flat out told my boss like,

"Hey, I and and I was being for real. I

was like, another company's already

offered me a spot. So, if if if you want

to move, we need to move." And it worked

out.

>> Yep. There's a there's a concept a

psychology concept that I put in my book

called mimemetic desire. And so the

example that I use in the book and often

uh out in public is imagine a room

that's got a hundred toys in it. I don't

know. Are you are you a father?

>> I have three kids. I just had our third

two months ago. So guess all right.

Well, you can you can relate to this. If

you had a room with a hundred toys in it

and you have two toddlers in the room

and toddler A picks up one of those

toys.

>> Oh yeah, it happens every day at my

house.

>> Which which toy does toddler B want all

the time, every time?

>> Yeah. This is this is why you want to

bring subtly not not like a

sledgehammer, but you want to carefully

bring in competition into this thing

because everybody always wants the toy

that somebody else has more than the toy

that's laying around on the ground. It's

just human psychology. It makes you more

valuable. It als they pursue you more

aggressively, too. The timelines tighten

up. There's a whole bunch of other side

benefits for doing that. Yeah.

>> But um yeah,

>> one thing one thing too that I'm

interested to hear your thoughts on that

I've kind of done throughout my career

is and and I've you know I always tell

people this that I think recruiters both

agency and corporate you've spent time

in both

>> are really the best

people to help you in your career. Write

resumes

>> career coaching salary negotiations

because we have been in it every day.

everything.

>> Yeah, we know.

>> Um, we also know that sometimes those

resume writers that want to get money

out of your pocket or career coaches

that are telling you that

>> 80% of jobs are hidden jobs, never

posted,

>> you know. I know that that's BS.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, one of

the things that I've I I I've told

people and and it's kind of and I see

some questions coming in that I

definitely want to get to. Um, so if you

have questions, keep asking them and

we'll get to them. Um, as I tell people,

because people can get weird. It's like

a lot of people don't want to say where

they're currently at because that could

plant the seed to like offer only a

little bit more. What I tell people is

what is your bare minimum

>> to jump to a next role and then what's

the number that signs on the dotted line

tomorrow. So what that does is that you

you give two data points to a recruiter

>> which is better than one data point and

you don't have to give off where your

current salary is. Right? So so if I

were to make a jump, what is that number

for you to even start the conversation

for the next jump? and then what's the

bigger number that's going to make you

be the no-brainer. And if you can give

that to a recruiter, that gives them two

data points without

>> telling where you're currently at. I'm

kind of curious to hear your thoughts on

that.

>> That's true. All that's true. Um, but

what if there was another 20k on top of

the no-brainer number? That's what you

have to ask yourself, you know, and

sometimes that's the case, right? there

could be there could be money um up

above that. So, it's um it's always good

to set your range to where the top

number makes you mildly uncomfortable.

>> Yeah.

>> Asking for that. And I think that we

undervalue ourselves all of the time.

And so, the number that makes you mildly

uncomfortable

>> is the number that really should be in

your discussion

>> because it accounts for how we

undervalue ourselves. all of the time.

>> Yeah.

>> So, yeah, offering a range is a smart

thing to do. Um,

>> you know, I always advocate for my

clients to get the budget of the company

before answering the pay question. And

really, yeah, there's a specific um

strategy for doing that that I employ.

And I'll spill the beans right here.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> So, if you're if you're listening,

here's a great script that you can grab

and use next time you're on the phone

with a recruiter who's calling you and

they're going to ask you like, "What's

your pay expectation? What's the m They

might ask it in just the way you framed

it. What's the minimum? What's the

maximum?" Usually, they're more

interested in what's what's the minimum

that it would take to get you to make a

move.

>> They want a number out of you more than

anything. And so the key to succeeding

in the phone screen is to use a range in

the early phase. Don't give them a

number because as soon as you give them

a number, they're going to write that

down on the resume somewhere. They're

going to say, "I could get John for

240,000."

And more often than not, that's what the

offer ends up being,

>> right? And you know, keep in mind that

you haven't met the hiring team yet. And

there's a great opportunity in the

interview to move up in your value.

>> Yeah,

>> you need to preserve that. So, when that

question comes at me, here's what here's

what I say and here's what I coach my

clients to say when you're getting

screened before you interview. And that

is, I'm so glad you asked that question

because I want to have a really

transparent conversation with you about

pay to make sure this is a great match.

U but first, can you tell me what your

budget is for the position?

Do you think people are going to get a

little weird about that?

>> Um the the receiving end of that? No. Um

I think that recruiters are generally cy

about numbers because

um

they they are because they they don't

want to screw up the negotiation at the

end. Like we get judged based on offer

closing at the end. We don't want it to

fall apart. So, um, no, most of the

time, and I'll just spill some insider

secrets here, most of the time

recruiters are going to, um,

underpromise and overd deliver because

they want to close a deal at the end.

So, they will often not give you the

true range.

Um, they're going to hold back some

high-end. And this is why

psychologically,

let's just say I ask that question um

you know what's your budget for the

position

and then I'm going to get a range from

you probably and then my next question

is going to be does that is that salary

only or does that include incentives?

I want to shift the conversation into a

total pay opportunity conversation. Uh,

so I can compare apples to ba to apples

if I'm comparing multiple opportunities

because every company has a different

pay philosophy.

>> Sure.

>> Some some companies will pay all salary

and so on. But the recruiter is going to

say, well, okay, our range including

incentives is like 150 to 165 or 175 or

something. Let's just say that that's

the response.

>> Sure. If the top number is 175,

what do most candidates say? They might

say, "Well, 175 might work for me, or

that sounds like a good range,"

whatever.

Now, if 175 was the very top that you

could actually offer and you just set

the candidates's expectations at 175,

I mean, when's the last time any company

ever hired anyone at the very top of the

salary range?

>> Yeah. They they just don't do that

because it's it's a pain. Like the

internal equity goes out of whack. You

can't give somebody a raise at the end

of the year. There's all kinds of

reasons why hiring managers don't do

that.

So 175 is probably just the top of the

realistic offering range. and then you

know but if you if you knock their socks

off in the interview um 185 192 you know

those numbers might be possible.

>> Yeah.

>> So um yeah I don't find that qu like

corporate recruiters are having dozens

of conversations every week with

candidates. They're asking the pay

question all the time. They're having

relatively open conversations about the

pay structure, what it's made of. Here's

the bonus structure that we have for

this position. There's stock, there's

not stock. They have this is a normal

conversation. So, I don't want people to

feel like asking for the budget puts you

at risk.

>> It really doesn't.

>> And I'll give one other tip here. When

you ask that question, be silent for

about eight seconds.

>> Yes.

Yeah. And what you probably know this

trick too. Like I was for years I taught

hiring managers and hiring teams how to

ask tough interview questions of

candidates. And tolerating the silence

after a tough interview question is a

key technique that I teach. And another

human psychology like if you just look

at your watch

and you are silent

for 8 seconds

that is a long time and it becomes

uncomfortable like a a vacuum is going

to suck words into it.

>> So

>> yeah,

>> if you ask that question, what's your

budget? You're going to get one of two

answers. one is the budget or a range of

some kind. Um, another question or

another answer could be we're not sure

because it's a newly created position.

We're just checking to see what the

market is like. And I've used both of

those as a recruiter and there are

different ways of handling it each case.

>> Yeah,

I love that. I love that. Yeah, silence

I think is massive. But I think a lot of

people uh in my experience, you know,

they uh they say what they think they

want and then they start backtracking

immediately. Oh, you know, I want 175.

Oh, but but I mean, but it's fine. Like

I mean I mean if you can't get there

like you know I understand blah blah and

you're automatically so like say the

number, be quiet, let the other person

uh you know say something I think is

incredibly important. Um let me ask you

this. Uh I I do want to go um to a few

questions. Uh somebody goes Edward, I

wish I listened to this before an

interview that I had yesterday. Um

let's see here.

>> In my experience, recruiters have gotten

around that question by saying the

budget hasn't been released yet, but

they would love to get a ballpark

figure. How would you

>> Sure.

>> There there's some red flags to me with

this response,

>> Ron. I think that's a great question.

Um, if you get that from a recruiter,

um, it's it's unlikely unless it's a

newly created position. Most of the

time, this might be a a soft lie from

the recruiter, maybe even a hard lie.

>> But the the mistake that most people

make is buried in your question, which

is the ballpark figure.

So, most recruiters do have a range in

their mind. They've had this

conversation before they even start the

search. Y

>> even if a range hasn't been established

yet, they do have a ballpark idea of

what this is going to cost. They know

it's a director level job. They know

director level jobs usually pay X or

it's a developer of some kind. It's

going to maybe it's a wide range, but

they have a range. Now, they ask this

question. They're trying to get a number

out of you because it's easy to know if

a number a point on a number line is in

or out. Are you in or out? Yeah,

>> that's what they want. Like a recruiter

on a phone screen is looking to see if

you're qualified, if you're interested,

and if they can close you. Can they get

you is the question in their mind that

they are asking. So that will press you

for a number. And the appropriate best

answer at this point is a range.

So don't give them a ballpark figure.

If it's the if it's the range that I

mentioned before, say 150 to 175, you

can say

that's great because the range that I'm

discussing with other companies right

now is 160 to the high ones.

>> Yeah. And so what I've done instead of

offering a number that fits in their

number line, which is what is convenient

and comfortable for the recruiter, I

have offered reassurance. That's great.

I feel like we got a lot of overlap

here,

but my range is now overlapping yours

and my high point is above your high

point.

This allows you later to scoop up the

money that's still on the table if they

can come up above 175 even if the salary

is maxed there. There are a number of

negotiating fronts like signing bonuses

are a great example. Um it's it's not

unusual for

um seasoned professionals to leave a

five figure signing bonus on the table

that's even preapproved. It's just

sitting there. Yeah.

>> Hey, John, use this. You've got a

$20,000 signing bonus that you can use

if you need it.

>> When they when I had it and I didn't

need it, that's what I wrote on my

spreadsheet to replace my annual salary

when I was tracking this stuff.

>> Yeah.

>> So,

>> yeah. Uh yeah. And and Chris brings up a

good point. If they if they don't have

the budget, the job could be pulled,

right? So, like, you know, my my thought

with Ron with with your question is is

is I would go back and be like, "Hey,

listen. I if if the budget hasn't been

released yet, then how then how are we

talking?"

>> Yeah. If the budget hasn't been That's a

very good question. Um, but if

somebody's come out with that, they're

not going to say, "Oh, yeah, I forgot

the budget is this." So, if you if you

approach it in that way, you could be

viewed as adversarial.

And you can say, well, okay, if if this

is the answer and they don't give you a

range of their own, like the response

should be a range that's wide.

So, and you can say I'm talking with a

number of other companies. Some are in

different geographies. The jobs are

slightly different in terms of scope and

scale, but the range that I'm discussing

with other companies, and I know this is

wide, is mid ones to mid twos.

And you just what you want to do is

create an overlap and make that

recruiter or screener feel like you're

going to be getable in the end.

>> And that's so important, guys, because

this is the biggest egg on the face of a

recruiter. If they if they tie up a

short staffed team with somebody who

doesn't close after doing that, the

trust is broken with the recruiter and

the hiring manager.

>> Yeah.

>> So, they are they're going to try to and

if they poke at that, they say, "Well,

that's that's really wide range." You

could say, "Yeah, it is." But, you know,

some of these companies have extensive

um in you know um incentive programs.

Some are in different locations, but

that's the range that I'm talking about

for jobs kind of in this ballpark scope.

>> Now, I'm sure that uh you know, and I

promise you can promise to narrow this

range as you go through the interview

process

>> that you know, I'm going to stick to a

range at this point because I haven't

met the hiring team yet. I'm not sure of

the impact that I would make.

>> I like that. uh I want to make sure I

understand what the true scope of the

role and expectations are before I can

kind of map this to the other

opportunities that I'm exploring.

>> I like that. I like that.

My buddy Stephen Steven's coming on the

show here in the next few weeks. He's a

recruiter as well. He goes, "Man, oh

man, this is a conversation I have with

a buddy multiple times. Whose side are

we on? Internal recruiters or agency

recruiters?" I love it. I love it. Um,

yeah. I mean, you know, again, I you

have to remember, and I love I love what

John said.

Recruiters talk

salaries all the time. So, don't

don't be worried to talk about it. Like,

I I I love that. Let me ask you this,

John. One thing that I've another thing

I want to pinpoint too that John's been

saying that I really like, too, is given

give them market data,

>> right? So, if somebody goes, "What's

your salary?" be like, "Well, hey, I'm

interviewing for companies."

Uh, and give them a range

>> that allows them to like be like, "Oh,

well, we're underpriced. That recruiter

can go back to the hiring manager, be

like, I just talked with Taylor." I

think it's a great candid, but he's

saying that he's talking to companies

this at this price point. Maybe we're

underpaying. So, I love that. I want to

give that a call out as well.

>> Um,

>> let's see here. I'm going to go kind of

If you have any questions, throw them in

there. D. had a few. Let me go here.

>> So, I like this is another question by

Ron too. What is the groundwork you were

doing to build the leverage from the

beginning? Do you have some do you have

some thoughts?

>> Yeah. Yeah, this is a great question

from Ron. Thanks Ron for this. Um

there are several things that you can be

doing in the beginning. So, your

strategy in the application is to get a

phone call. You want a resume and um and

a number in the salary requirement box

that's going to get the phone call. Then

when you get the phone call, you're

reframing into a range. You have zero

leverage

at the application stage. You might be

one of many.

>> Yeah.

>> And the recruiter has a very limited

time, very limited time um to get on the

phone and talk to people. So they're

only going to do that with people that

are that are getable that fit the

requirements and things like that. And

if there are a lot of people the what's

in that salary requirements box becomes

a big uh funnel point. It it's a choke

point in the funnel. So that first

number could be like medium low for you

maybe to get the phone call, but you

have to reframe into a range or you'll

be stuck with that medium low number.

You do that in the phone screen. Um

in the phone screen, that's when you

begin building leverage.

>> Yeah.

>> Um because now they've narrowed the

field. They only have time to talk to

six or eight candidates. They're going

to present three maybe to the hiring

manager. That's a typical recruiter

screening process.

So, they've invested time in you, right?

If they if they like you and they want

to move you forward, um dropping the

competition line is something that helps

you to build leverage. I'm discussing

with other companies a range of A and B.

Um

you can sabotage your leverage here by

hinting that you've got nothing going

on. that you're desperate,

>> things like this, that reduces your

leverage and your value.

>> Yeah.

>> And then in the in the interview

process, when you make it to that point,

you're also talking about competition,

but you are positioning yourself as

somebody who is high value that can

solve expensive problems.

But it's more than that. Like you want

to be the person who's gonna help the

hiring manager make their bonus.

Like I'll tell you just how

self-centered the hiring process is.

Like

managers hire people that are going to

make them look good.

That's, you know, and if you can be that

person more than other folks, more and

more leverage. They don't want to lose

you to a competitor. So, um, this tends

to produce the highest initial offer and

I have very specific techniques for

doing all these things.

>> Yeah. Um, I I want to get to Eduardo's.

uh you know I

I don't know if John speak to

specifically LAM or other places of cost

of living but I I I think when we talk

about leverage in general

I think it's trying to and I've talked

about this in past content it's trying

to zero in on why the person is hiring

for the role and how you can solve that

as fast as possible.

>> Yeah. So

>> yeah.

>> Yeah. So like when I was interviewing

for the last RAW I was out before

Torque, I I was like, "Hey, do you guys

have any sort of content?" They were

like, "No." I said, "Okay, do you guys

have any sort of live stream?" They were

like, "No." I was like, "Do you guys

have any sort of I was like I was like

And they're originally hiring for a

sales role." And I was like, well, I've

brought in this many clients and passed

through content. So, basically what I

try to do is I tried to zero in on their

pain points and address it immediately.

So, in ter terms of geography, I can't

speak to that, but when it comes to what

to leverage, it's trying to figure out

what a company needs as fast as

possible. Thoughts on that, John?

>> Yeah, I agree with you. Um, it's an

interesting question. And I had my very

first client come to me from Saudi

Arabia recently

>> and I've never used, you know, done any

I've done a lot of global recruiting but

never actually recruited anyone in or

for Saudi Arabia.

So um I know though that the principles

of pay negotiation are the same no

matter where you are. The principles are

the same. So scarcity drives value.

That's what competition brings. like

there's only one of you. There are three

companies chasing you. That drives your

value up. Um now every country has its

own nuance

>> um in this process like um some

countries may have a very fixed approach

to salaries and some cultures don't

offer signing bonuses things like that.

But they all have to recruit. They all

have to hire people. They all have

expensive problems and so there's

usually some area of flexibility. If not

in salary or signing bonus, there's some

other thing you can do. Some countries

will will have an employment contract.

We don't have those in the United States

except for maybe at the sea level or

board level.

>> Yeah.

>> Um but so the question here is you know

what about Latin America?

There's a couple of things like

if you lived in Latin America, the

company might say, "I don't care where

you live. Live anywhere. Here's how we

pay." And the other response is, "Well,

if you're living in a cheap place, we're

going to pay you less money because our

pay scales are regionalized.

You know, you have an office in

Washington DC and you have an office in

Atlanta. Atlanta. If you're working in

Atlanta, it pays less.

So, in either of these cases though, you

maximize your value um and

uh and so on by solving expensive

problems, being the person that is a

lowrisk candidate and

uh invoking competition. These are the

things that are universal leverage

builders.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Uh let me see

here. Going kind of going through

hashtag. You guys have been super active

today. I appreciate it. Um

see here. All right. I think I think we

got all the questions there. Let me ask

you this. What are some other

So so let's say you get to the final

offer

>> and it's not quite what you want for

salary. What are some other things you

could negotiate?

Ah, great question. So, very often, um,

at the higher, well, I'll say this

first. At the higher levels of the

organization where there's only one of

you, there's a lot more creativity in

the pay pay package structure. There's a

lot more elbow room.

>> What do you mean part one of you? Like

you're the only person like the only

position they're hiring for or

>> No, if there's only one of you on the

org chart.

>> So, you're talking to a technical

audience. There's a lot of developers on

the call here. So if you're the VP of

engineering and there's only one of

those, you have a lot more negotiating

latitude on almost every front. Now if

you're if you are applying to a job as a

developer and there's 20 other

developers on the team, salary is a lot

more constrained

because they can't afford to make

everyone else on the team frustrated

that they brought you in at a higher

level. So salaries is constrained in

that situation. So companies have to

expand on other fronts. Uh upfront uh

money or equity is an easy uh thing to

negotiate on. Uh title sometimes or even

level are things you can negotiate on.

So, if you're stuck in the salary, let's

say you're applying for a developer two

job, could you be could you qualify for

a developer three so that we could close

this deal and get into a different

salary bracket? So, you can negotiate on

level. Sometimes

um incentive structure itself are

sometimes uh viable. A lot of times

companies will say this is a grade 30

position that provides a 10% bonus or a

20% bonus or whatever it is. Um, and

everyone that's a grade 30 gets a 20%

bonus. So, we we're stuck there. We

can't negotiate on that. But sometimes

you can throw in like a milestone bonus.

Let's say there's a really valuable

project that's due in six months. if I

get that project done on time and under

budget, could we tie a monetary one-time

bonus to that KPI?

So, you still have your 20%, you're not

deviating from that, but you're you're

offering them different ideas,

whether it's also whether it's remote or

hybrid or in-person. That's negotiable.

A lot of the time the title is often

negotiable even if the internal title

can't move.

>> Yeah,

>> you can you can

>> that's interesting.

>> adjust the business card title and that

that is the title that ends up on your

resume.

>> Um paid time off is sometimes

negotiable.

I just had a candidate or client um

negotiate health insurance coverage.

>> Oh wow. with a you know a small company

most of the time that's not negotiable

because it's program that applies to all

employees.

>> Yeah.

>> In this particular case they

>> he said well you know I'm moving like my

current company pays most of the

premium. You're not doing that. So we

could solve that in a couple of ways.

You could pay me more salary or you

could pay the premium on the health

insurance. The company chose to pay the

premium on the health insurance. So, you

bring up a really good point that I want

to bring up here that I don't want to

want it to go understated.

Your your candidate you just said he

gave context.

>> I think context is your greatest

negotiating power, right? So, it's like,

hey,

I'm about to walk away from a $40,000

bonus to take this role.

what can you guys do? Can we do a sign

on bonus or hey, my company paid most of

the premiums. Can we And I think that

eases negotiation

>> and makes it more of a conversation. So

I I really want to call that out here.

>> Yep. And if I could just add to that,

what you just did was not adversarial at

all. It was

>> this is what I meant by you don't have

to be somebody aggressive in

negotiation. What you just did was a

collaboration invitation.

>> Absolutely.

>> Let I have I have a problem. I want to

say yes to you, but I have an obstacle.

Can you help me to address the obstacle?

Here are a few ideas that I have. What

ideas do you have? How can we, you know,

and that is what I mean by

>> Yeah,

>> this is how you reduce your risk. And I

mentioned at the very first of this um

broadcast that 10% of people negotiate

disastrously.

This is something that those 10% of

people do. They change their

personality.

>> Yeah.

>> In the negotiation process, they become

somebody different because that's what

they think they have to be.

uh you know they think that negotiating

is a scary high-risisk game of chicken

and I'm going to have to be this uber

assertive you know person in the

process.

This hurts you at the negotiating table

and I'll tell you how it can even get

your offer yanked. I've had multiple

hiring managers in my career call me to

say, "Hey, John, like we interviewed

Taylor. We really liked him. thought

he'd fit extremely well into our team

and into our program, but now that we're

talking about money, a different Taylor

is showing up.

>> Yeah.

>> And I now I'm not sure who the real

Taylor is.

>> And the the fit that we thought we had

is now in question. Y

>> and that can spawn more interviews or it

can even say like ah just I don't want

to take the risk that I'm hiring a

different person.

>> And so you we're going to use this

negotiation as the excuse to just

withdraw the offer.

>> Yeah. Let me let me ask you this as we

kind of wrap wrap up our time here.

Again, y'all please uh throw up some

questions um and we'll get to them. Um,

you know, John, I I one of the questions

I get a lot is

the offer looks good. Should I still

negotiate?

>> Yeah, I'll tell you a story about this.

So, I had this happen to me uh a few a

few months ago. I had a client who is a

chief operating officer level client. Um

his total pay package was about 800,000

um

>> all in right.

>> Yeah.

>> 300 350,000 in salary and the rest were

incentives. That happens a lot at the

executive level.

>> And he'd been an unemployed executive

for the last few months and working with

me for some of that time. He called me

up and he said, "John, I got an offer

finally. I'm so excited. I think I'm

just going to take it."

And everyone on this call has probably

been tempted to do that at some point

because the alternative sounds awfully

risky and you're not willing to do that.

But I talked him out of it. I said,

"Hold on. Let's let's circle the wagons

and figure out our strategy." We landed

on a lowrisk engagement strategy with

the CEO,

how we were going to ease into the

discussion in a very safe way. And we

discovered in that collaboration process

that there was still $613,000

left on the table.

The guy, if he had if he had said that

to me, I'm just going to take it. And if

he had done that, which he would have

done, he had no idea that there was that

much money on the table. It's

>> crazy.

>> And most people, that's why I say most

people don't realize how much money

they're leaving on the table.

like a couple of low-end Ferraris or a

nice house in some markets. If you're in

California, it's like a garden shed. But

um you know, you know what I mean?

That's a lot of money. And interestingly

enough, only about $40,000 of that was

salary.

>> The rest was other stuff that we got

tossed into the package. Uh there was a

six figure addition to the equity

package. So, how do you have So, how do

you have that conversation?

>> And again, you know, I know we got 12

minutes here, but h how do you have that

conversation

if the offer is good

>> and you don't have any more

like giving, you know, kind of that

context we told you about, hey, I'm

stepping away from a $40,000 bonus or

whatever. Like, let's say you don't have

any of that. like h how do you still

finagle that without coming across as

super greedy?

>> Well, that's a that's a that's a closely

held secret that I revealed to my

coaching clients.

>> There you go.

>> But u yeah, there's there are ways that

you can do that. I think you you don't

necessarily have to appear greedy,

though. I can say this. um during during

the interview process when they're

interviewing you, they're asking you a

bunch of questions

and

you need to try as a candidate to

uncover the financial value of you in

the you know in the interview process.

So you need to uncover what their big

problems are, what their big risks are,

the things that you're going to be

working on, the big deliverables that

you will have. And then you can ask a

question similar to, well, what what is

the what happens if that isn't on time

or if that's delayed or if that's done

imperfectly

or something like that. you can draw

them into a conversation of like, well,

it's going to cost us a lot of money.

>> Yeah.

>> How much how much money?

>> And

let's let's say if they hire you,

they're going to get uh you know, you're

going to solve a $5 million problem for

them or help them to avoid a $5 million

expense.

This helps in their mind. You you've

kind of set yourself up to this is the

justification that they're going to

write on that offer approval form.

like you're just giving it to them.

Offering you an extra $50,000 to solve a

$5 million problem is,

you know, that's that's what we do.

We're we're angling. We're we're trying

to bring value in.

>> Sure.

>> And you're going to remind them in this

discussion that you're going to bring

lot you're looking forward. you're

excited about this opportunity because

of the value that you're bringing, the

impact that you'll make. You're

reminding them of that equation, and

you're reminding them that maybe there

are other people coming after you. Um,

>> if if they can, that's great. If they

can't, somebody else might take you.

>> That tends to produce the best results.

>> I love it. I love it. All right, John.

So, uh, and again for those of you

watching, thank you again. Uh, the chat

has been, uh, off the charts, so thank

you so much. Uh, so I have a rapid fire

round.

>> Okay,

>> so I want to ask you some rapid fire as

we kind of wrap up here. Um, and again,

thanks for everybody tuning in. Please

go connect with John. Again, I will drop

his link in the chat after the episode.

Um, but first off, what is one app,

tool, software, could be AI, could be a

mobile app on your phone that you can't

live without right now?

>> Uh, for me that's chat GPT.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I do um a tremendous amount of

writing and uh building out programs and

strategic work and I find that it is an

absolute gamecher. I went through a AI

black belt program uh actually twice and

it has um been incredibly valuable to

learn this stuff. Um if you if your hair

is getting a little bit gray um you have

to fight against agism in the job search

process and at work sometimes. And so

part of that battle for you is going to

be look at all the new tools all the

time. make sure that you're on the

cutting edge of what's happening in your

environment, whether that's a new

software language or uh a new

application or something like that. Make

sure you're always learning and that is

the proof that you're not what they

think you might be if you have gray

hair.

>> I love it. I love it. What's the very f

Let me ask you this. Let's go way back.

What's the very first job you ever got

paid to do?

Well, let's see. Um, that would be

picking strawberries when I was about 11

years old. Uh, right now you can't do

that because of child labor laws. And it

kind of breaks my heart a little bit.

But growing growing up in Oregon, that

was something that I could do. And you'd

go out in the strawberry fields and fill

a flat full of strawberries. And they'd

have these little punch cards to show

how many you got throughout the day. My

mom would pack my lunch. I'd get on a

bus. I come home with like strawberry

stains all over my hands.

>> That's awesome.

>> That taught me at a young age though the

relationship between work and money and

it was a really important thing for me.

>> I love that. Um so going back still

living in the young John age, what did

you want to be originally when you grew

up?

>> Ah my first remembrance of that is I

wanted to be an astronaut and I actually

had a plan for that. So, when I was in

the seventh grade, I started asking

like, "What is it? What do you have to

do to become an astronaut?"

And I figured you'd probably need to be

a Navy pilot because most astronauts are

Navy pilots. And I started asking like,

"Well, what do you have to do to become

a Navy pilot?" Like, I was re reverse

engineering the path even at that age.

>> I love it. I love it. Um, let me ask you

this. If if I if if I told you uh

tomorrow

that you could not do what you do for a

living and you had to pursue a hobby for

a living, what hobby would you pursue

for a living?

>> Um I think I do something in the not

for-profit world. Okay. like um and I

don't even want to say that you know

helping people or ministry or whatever

is my hobby

>> but um it sort of is.

>> I think I do I I would be doing

something that helped people and

probably in a Christian context because

I am a Christian and um love um I love

doing that. I like edgy things like, you

know, Megan, how rescuing people from

the sex trade or um

>> yeah,

>> something like that. And there are a lot

of folks doing that work and I want to

join them in that. So, that's what I'd

be doing.

>> That's awesome. All right, last question

for you, John, as we wrap up. The show's

called Guidance Counselor 2.0 because we

had guidance counselors in middle

school, high school, and college, but

now as adults, we don't necessarily have

them to turn to. What would be your if

you can go back in time and tell young

John something, what would be the

biggest piece of career advice for young

John?

>> I think I would say

um

entrepreneurism is safer than you think.

>> I love that.

>> And um it's it's a viable alternative to

the corporate world. You can you can do

something on your own. And it took me a

long time to start my first business.

Looking back on my high school journals,

I could see that I wanted my own company

even in a high in a high school

>> uh level. But then I I spent a long

career on the corporate side. Now, in

addition to salary coach, I do help

people to launch a consulting business,

which is a really cool new thing that I

started doing a few months back. And I'm

very excited about that work because

it's a big leap. A lot of people don't

want to take that leap because they're

afraid,

>> but uh you've got a great path and a

structured program to help people to do

that.

>> I love that. I love that. All right,

y'all. Well, that is it for today.

Hopefully, y'all uh got a lot of good

info from it based off the chat. Uh it

it it is uh that is correct. John, do

you want to plug uh where people can

find you, how people can reach out and

also any any books or any just just

direct people somewhere?

>> Okay, great. So, that book behind me on

the bookshelf, Act Your Wage, is my book

that outlines the entire salary coach

method. It's available on Amazon. You

can reach me at johns salary.coach.

That's a direct email straight to me.

So, if anybody wants to introduce

themselves, I would welcome that. Um,

LinkedIn is a great way also to connect

with me and to follow. So, I hope since

this is a networking opportunity that

the people here I'll be flooded I hope

I'll be flooded with new LinkedIn um

connection requests. Uh, I produce uh

periodic content uh on negotiation and

starting your own business. So, if

that's of interest to you, follow me

there. Connect with me. If anybody's

thinking about a job change, it might be

worthwhile to um connect with me

privately.

>> Love it. Love it. Awesome. John, stay

on. Sorry, I can say bye to you

backstage. Y'all have a good one. Um

this is the only one only guidance

counselor 2.0 for the week, but we got

two episodes next week coming at you on

Tuesday and Wednesday. Have my dear

friend Chris Dears on next Tuesday and

the great Aaron Francis uh on Wednesday

of next week. So y'all have a good one.

We'll see you in the Torque Discord. And

uh you have a good Wednesday. Peace.