Episode 96: Media Designer Joe Herrington on How to Create Sound Effects at Walt Disney Imagineering

if you record an animal any kind in

Panama in a passive state that a calm

State no matter what you do the

processor it's going to be perceived as

something passive and calm if you record

that

and another that bird for example in an

angry aggressive mode no matter what we

do to that sound it's going to come back

as angry in the direction and she

learned to mix and match different kinds

of animals with the moods that they are

to get certain things that yeah that was

sound designer Joe Harrington and you're

listening to the tomorrow society

podcast

[Music]

[Music]

[Music]

thanks for joining me here on episode 96

of the Tomorrow society podcast I am

your host Dan Heaton one thing that I

repeatedly learned when doing this

podcast is really how little I

understand and realize about the

complexity of how attractions are put

together or even more broadly how the

parks function in terms of their

presentation and especially their sound

I've talked in the past with Greg meter

and with Glenn Barker and they have

educated me on some of what goes in to

the sound of the parks and that

continues this week with Joe Harrington

Joe has been with Disney since 1981 he

joined right around the time that Epcot

Center was in full swing worked on

creating sound effects for Spaceship

Earth and other pavilions and has been

involved in so many of the big Disney

attractions since that point he still

works there now he's worked on Indiana

Jones on Radiator Springs racers on Tron

and even on the most recent attraction

that Disney opened last week which is

Mickey and Minnie's runaway railway and

Joe beyond his specific work just has a

lot of insight into how to sound even

function in these attractions how do you

make it seem like the Bears at the

country Bear Jamboree are actually

talking to you rather than moving their

mouth and having a speaker nearby

present the sound that makes it seem

like they're talking to you that's just

one of many examples that Joe gets into

on this podcast which I kind of think of

as a master class in sound effects and

sound design for the parks and I'm sure

that the way he explained it dumbed it

down so much for me and for all of you

yet there's still a lot that he presents

that I found so interesting during this

podcast and I can't wait for you to hear

it it's really fun too

into this topic before I do so if you

are enjoying this show and recent

episodes with Jolin

Cicero and Carly wise L and Don Carson

and so many others there's a really cool

way you can support the show this is a

listener-supported podcast and the one

way that the show keeps going is through

patreon you can make a small monthly

contribution and really help to keep

this show going and you also get some

cool perks there's a membership card and

a pin and also a monthly show called The

Tomorrow Society bulletin that I just do

for members through patreon and I talked

about some of the big issues affecting

the parks recent news and just some fun

topics and it's a way for me to dig even

further into the parks beyond these

interviews you can learn more by going

to tomorrow Society dot-com slash member

so this was a really fun show Joe took

my questions and just ran with them and

gave some really complicated answers

that I was blown away by some of them

how much goes into the sound effects so

here is Joe Harrington

[Music]

I'm always interested especially in

something that I find that it's easy not

to think as much about which is the

sound and media design but I'd love to

start back more at the beginning just

with you I mean how did you get

interested in doing sound design and

working in audio when you were younger

well I grew up there's a ranch kid but I

always had a very strong interest in

technology I invented a lot of things

when I was younger they weren't

important things but they were things

that had not been done yet and so I left

a tinkerer and I loved electronics and I

loved radio and television so I got

involved in it as much as I possibly

could in my late high school years I got

involved with with television and radio

and and by the time I was a senior in

high school I had my own radio show in

the evenings kind of cutting about

social life that not sure was from 6:00

to midnight every night and so for a

senior in high school and then where I

left off I went to the army and when I

got back from the Army I I sort of

changed my direction I thought maybe I

wanted to teach astronomy so I went back

to college for the purpose of teaching

astronomy and I had an astronomy

professor that really kind of died you

in a different direction he was doing

public shows astronomy show for the the

public and for schools and he wanted me

to get involved in that because he said

he thought it might be good at it and so

I started doing I mean who they liked

that I was doing and he said you know

there's this there's this internship in

Worchester New York which are year-long

and I think the autocrat for well I'm

the kid mystics I've never cried

anything like that so I tried it and I

got it and so I moved to Rutgers New

York for a year and live as part of the

internship and it was over I was looking

for a place to work and so I went to

several places all over the country and

one of the interviews that I got was the

Reuben phage Space Center in San Diego

they were just about to open

and they needed somebody to produce

their material the right introduced the

material and I was fortunate enough to

get that job so I came down to San Diego

and a few years I wrote all of their

school shows and public shows and

produced them and in the course of that

I got back into my own technology ideas

and I started creating the soundtracks

and mostly out of necessity so I was

creating music and sound effects and

recruiting the entire sound sound rocks

in those days there wasn't much

technology available so again I've got

into inventing a lot of different

technology take blades and different

things like that and the looping machine

thing there is no such thing as a wave

machine back then so I would record on

the quarter-inch tape the splice giant

lips together and stretch them around

the room on mic stands and let him come

back through the machine and create my

sound tracks with those kinds of loops

and what I was experimenting with was

that the concept of creating a an

instrument that you couldn't recognize

what it was and my primary source for

that with the human voice and so I would

take the room in the voice and loop it

in those giant loops and then it shifted

in fact in those days we didn't have any

there's no real good way we had we've

had seven and a half 15 and 30

it's about all you could do on our tape

machine so I needed something that could

be I saw them and I had a very brilliant

engineer that made a machine to do just

that and so I was able to make might

build up my cords and things like that

and so I was able to make this music and

really when you would listen to it you

couldn't tell really what the instrument

was but it was very very very belong you

know anything the space program that I

was doing and so I was doing after

doctor said eight and a half years and

then Marty squatted Randy bright from

Disney we're down there on vacation in

San Diego and there so one of my shows

and Marty called me aside and said come

work for me and so I did and that's how

that got started originally they

wanted me to do soundtracks for

spaceship earth and then all of that

path because at that time Disney

Imagineering the word enterprises of fun

had other sound effects them over by

Jimmy McDonald or with the studio it was

too complex things and did not have a

Sammy's honor and he wanted me to head

up a brand new sound effects department

and have the best sound effects anybody

had ever heard than the fraction that

was good work and so I started that up I

turned up here and really did not know

what my job would be I mean I knew I was

sound effects design but you know what

that entailed in those early stages of

of being at business I was I was still

bewildered they stuck me an office with

Buddy Baker and I shared an office with

them

and that kind of pulled me out of my

shell because you can't be around a guy

of the caliber of Buddy Baker very wrong

yeah a lot of it rubbing off and a lot

of it did and say that's not the

business you mentioned Buddy Baker who

was involved with so many important

songs for Epcot and beyond and I'd love

to know a little more about what it was

like to work with him what was how did

that experience go for you it sounds

like it was really good

what my parents the Buddy Baker was very

good I'd like to say just Buddy Baker I

should really back up and give credit to

several of the others at the time that I

came to to Wed enterprises I mean there

were legends walk in the hall and and I

worked with those guys every day or exit

NCI wafer Rogers of course buddy and

Jimmy McDonald Ward Kimball and Claude

coats and of course Marty Sklar

Harriet burners and Roly crop I mean

these people were just there at our

disposal and we talk to them every day

and they really had a powerful influence

on all of us young Imagineers who really

didn't know what we were doing we didn't

know whether if anything about story

about putting the fractions together but

they had understood what these guys knew

their business to just have David polish

say

I'm fighting Baker and shunned over each

other - and you come up with mr. problem

and they give you the the benefit of

their wisdom and when guys like that

called yes listen why don't you listen

you take notes you really pay attention

to what they have to say and you take it

to the bank and I deal so years later

when they opened up the endurance video

we had some news there is some serious

audio problems mostly because it took

knowledge Ian and things of that nature

we were trying to be more than

technology really allowed so mommy

established something called the audio

swapping and it was moving

exit nco and Buddy Baker and our job is

to go through all of our collections and

find out what was wrong and find out

that fix it and so ballin theta that was

an incredible learning experience being

joined at the hip with those two guys

how many other games not he knows clear

that these were two veterans who had

walked in work with Walt and regular

business and so what an incredible

opportunity to learn what was wow I I

can't imagine what that would be like

cuz both of those guys exit NCO is did

so many things with pirates and honey

mansion and so much else there I'm

curious too about FCAT Center you know

when you started because I know it was

very chaotic to get that open in time

like you mentioned so many new

technologies with sound what was it like

with Epcot Center and it's been what

spaceship earth coming in so new into

that craziness of trying to get that

Park together well you know we when I

came on in 81 this thing was that ball

was rolling and so I had to catch up

with it pretty fast and not only that I

had to catch up but I had to learn a new

job I had to learn what it is they

expected of me because Marty expected me

to turn that thing into a position and

so I did but he took a while I had to

discover you know what had to be done

and then set out ways to figure out how

to do it and prior to coming to Bruce

Lee

and I have done in the field of sound

production had been really really low

budget and suddenly I kind of throw in

my book I had caught that because I

didn't but it seemed that way to me

because I remember one time I told buddy

I said you know I'd really like to use a

particular synthesizer for this

particular thing I wasn't much of a

sympathizer person I was a more of a

real sound person but I hadn't really

read for this rusev will go by and I

wish that I recovered from the shop idea

there was there was things like that but

when I needed equipment the got it and

it was a remarkable learning curve for

me but I could do things like that and

then slowly I set up one of the studios

as my saw design studio and had it kind

of backed out to the sound design work

because you know more studios are not

set up for that kind of work especially

in those days the sound design was

required the technology that wouldn't

belong in a regular studio and so I got

a lot of that stuff and I kept up with

the technology and when samplers came

along I got other they able to get the

samplers and and learn to use those

they've been a most efficient way in add

kinetic fractions so it was just a

wonderful opportunity to have that

ability to have the resources that I

needed when I needed them right yeah

because essentially it was so new so

much the technology seemed like it was

being invented at the time it sounds

like you were 10 of doing the same and

working that together as you went along

so when it got time to put those in the

attractions what was that experience

like I know you didn't do it all

yourself but I'm just saying for your

sounds then to kind of be mixed and put

actually into an attraction like

spaceship earth in those days I could

say I was working as the sound effects

designer so my job was just to do the

sound effects for each one of the shows

so I wasn't responsible for the whole

soundtrack of the whole show that was

kind of a committee

people that did that and in very often

it was led up by some of the more senior

members in Finland in the company for

example we did American adventure you

know Randy bright was in there up to his

collar and he was calling a lot of the

shots and can Rick Rothschild and so

these guys carry that that ball forward

and my job would just create the sound

effects of it so then the loan wasn't so

terribly big but it was distribute

across every single thing that they were

doing at the time and so I was

constantly jumping from one project to

the other to the other together and when

it came time to put that in for the most

part my staff had been mixed in to the

attraction already been to the

soundtrack already and it was installed

later and it was about to do it today

where we do an awful lot of that kind of

attraction and those days we didn't have

the ability to do that so we would

create the soundtracks here in

California and send him out there and if

they sounded bad

who would negative notes and bring them

back and remake them

that's kind of the way that that is done

but in those days I was back and sent to

Florida two weeks there and two weeks

there I'll go out there and try things

and work on things and where I was

living work and I come back here and fix

all of those things and go back back

there excited then there was a lot of

trial and error because most of the

fencing event that were founded it had

never been done before we were using

brand-new technology that had never been

done before here in our studios we read

the very first digital tape machines and

of course that didn't last long but we

were the first ones to do and trying to

edit with those things and of course the

and you couldn't do nice smooth edits

loved attended a like that like a

crossfade it was a pretty much and

we had a was a little poster on the wall

of a creature that exit NC outgrew it

was called a snap it was an ugly little

little bug and

when things that go wrong we make a

little popping sound and we've got to

call him in a snap

and so that's big a character on the

wall of a studio for a long time so

that's what a real real thorn in our

side because the digital machines

sounded good but it didn't take much to

screw them up yeah I can imagine

especially given from what I know I mean

like you said the digital machines there

was this was the cutting-edge technology

at the time like right there were only a

few at all when you're creating the

sound effects like you mentioned before

you started at Disney you were doing a

lot of things with the voice and

everything well were some of your tools

that you use to create those effects

like I'm sure there were many things but

I'm just curious you know because what

were you using to create them before

they even got to the attraction since

you were working on the effects well I

was partly influenced by Jimmy McDonald

Jimmy of course is sound effects legend

for Disney he created literally

thousands and thousands of sound effects

devices and he was also the voice of

Mickey Mouse for almost 40 years I was

influenced by what he did

he created sound effects devices now his

dad who did it out of necessity but I

quickly realized that I could give his

devices new life by recording them in

different ways and he was always very

intrigued by that he would he would live

to see me take his old props and record

him in different ways and precious him

in different ways and then they wouldn't

do them sound like they've started here

so I got very very fascinated with using

organic sounds both sounds in nature and

props that I could make to create this

sounds that I wanted and like Jimmy I

was always on the lookout for something

that would make a good sound that I and

I got through a compact effect I could I

could turn that into this you know you

don't hear it boy he as you hear it with

what you can do to it

and I've got to feel in the same way

with insects or animals and

things like that but this there's an

interesting thing techniques and

according animals that pretty much stay

with it if you understand those things

you can visit to your benefit and if you

don't understand them even just make a

mess of it but for example if you record

an animal any kind of Panama in a

passive state that a calm State no

matter what you do the processor it's

going to be perceived as something

passive and calm if you record that and

another that bird for example in an

angry aggressive mode no matter what we

do to that sound it's going to come back

there's anger in the direction and she

learned to mix and match different kinds

of animals with the moods that they are

to get certain things that you're after

now I started off like everybody else

and creating for Epcot the energy Batman

no with full of dinosaurs I had to

create a whole bunch of dinosaurs I

would lose a lot of the techniques that

most people in the business had been

using for years and that's combining

different kinds of animal sounds and

things of that nature but I got where I

started also adding organic sounds that

weren't necessarily from some kind of

life-form and I found that I could get

some amazing things that way to really

color and influence the signs that I was

trying to create when I started they can

go dinosaur was the first thing I did I

study all I could and I found out that

most dinosaurs didn't war like the

movies making war and so I tried to be

much more but even anything I tried to I

would study a particular creature and I

would try to imagine based on my

studying of the you know their size and

all in the size of the major cavity of

the vents in a voice box just what I

might really do that might be a

realistic because after all that thought

was thought to be a place of one I

wasn't supposed to be blades for

sensationalism so I tried to make

anything as true to life as I possibly

could

an apology when I even went our

recording Birds I refused to put a bird

in a location that we didn't do that so

this was a common thing I think you

think I mean you put a kookaburra in

every jungle movie we've ever seen

please you know there was living very

restricted areas so it stuff like that

so with the combination of animal sounds

and insect sounds I mean I did things

like I would record sand dunes and got

incredible chance that a lot of sand is

placing my mics underneath the sand

letting the sand beach then place in

Mike's been sighted truth them that

inside of burrowing down inside at

angles

no I was I was in a real experimentation

though there was no place that I would

not stick a microphone and and I look

for very specialized microphones to do

just that and when we do that kind of

stuff you find size that nobody has ever

heard before and then when you beget to

manipulate those sounds if they have

heard it before you complain that things

that they have a good before highs of

loans that are beyond or below you know

I'm hearing you can bring them into play

and lose them as articulating characters

in your sound and so I did it awful lot

of that kind of stuff

and then I didn't make things for

example let's say there's an American

adventure so for the wind in American

adventure I went out to attend them

that's near here and I stretched which

and fishing line all over that fender

very cliffs there were two almost

vertical cliffs and I would climb those

cliffs and spec fishing line very tight

until I handed that up a hundred and

fifty strands across that corner and

then when I started recording there's

the wind look through that clearly and

across all that fishing line if it's

just awesome and so there were a lot of

things you don't like that did I do it

wow that's that's incredible I I knew

there was a lot involved with it but now

here

you talk about just so much

experimentation that you did it's it

amazes me I love it Joe it's it's so

good and so I'd love to know - I mean

this is a little bit later on but like

for I have some questions on attractions

and how you set up the sound which I

know I've heard you talk about before

but like for example when you have

something like country Bear Jamboree and

you're trying to make us believe the

sound is coming from a bears mouth or an

animatronic or something like that how

do you set up the speakers or how do you

make the sound work that actually makes

that believable because to me I sit

there and I think it's coming from the

bear but I know that's not really true

so I'd love to hear you talk about that

well now that is a challenge it's a

we've got a number of solutions for

challenges like that but it's always a

challenge because every place that I

want to put a speaker which is where the

speaker really belongs the art director

or the lighting director or somebody

else says absolutely not you cannot put

a speaker there and so obviously the

sweet spots are everybody's sweet spots

so we have to play some games and sound

and for example in the in the country

their exam Duluth that's actually

probably just backed up you start off we

don't just put speakers in a room and

that'd play back sound we designed we

designed the room and the sound system

around the story that's going to be

played in there we have the luxury of

doing that most nobody else on the

planet has that luxury it is very often

that we are building our facilities for

that particular attraction we know

what's going to happen in that room know

where the characters are we've been

working on this forever and so we don't

do it we try to get the acoustics right

and then we put the speakers as close to

where they can possibly do this the best

storytelling that possibly can but

there's always those that bell country

Bear Jamboree there's a good example of

that because you can't get a speaker

large enough in in a bear to make it

believable

that is coming from here so a couple of

things that you have to understand just

about the physics of some human beings

are really really good by clicking that

sound left and run you can hear at the

green one way they said it left and

right but walking down is real shopping

you might have seven to ten called the

greens up and down that you can't tell

where it is and so put that in your back

pocket and you let that work for you

but what that means is if I put a

speaker beside Big Al the speaker is

going to sound like this beside that al

so preferably what I would like to do is

put a speaker on line or a vertical line

with his voice above them or below them

and most left will never understand

there's a difference but even sometimes

that won't work because then you can get

the sound loud enough an example of that

is that great moments with mr. Lincoln

when you're trying to get mr. Lincoln to

talk to this giant theater which is

spread out and large wings on both sides

and try to make everybody believe that

the sound is coming from

so there's another trick that food that

we favorite very often and that is to

put a smaller high-powered speaker as

close to the mouth source as we can

possibly and then use fill speakers in

the theater around the character and

delay those speakers so that the sound

that comes to your fear precedes the

sound it comes from the fill and so it

cooks your brain and the brain says oh

it's coming for mr. Lincoln what in fact

only that initial I just heard that high

frequency sound coming out of really

you'd say oh that's that's oh but that's

not what you hear you hear a totality of

that

well everything lost all the mids and

lows are coming from the face because

but they're all delayed to hit you here

after this is called the Haase FET and

so you just believe that it's them

talking and it's and you don't

the claim super harp suddenly you

realize this is limit itself lucky which

Sabbath we were standing there and we

use that all over the place

because in almost everything we do we

can never be the characters wards where

you are speaker what you wanted voice to

come from so you have to play with those

clips other times you cook stickers on

both sides and phantom different you

know fan of it in between with a center

source speaker for thing and then a

little bit the Haas effect because

you're not a game that you could play by

the same token many times you ought to

turn that around and say I do not go on

a point so much sound that's especially

clear of things like ambulances I

started doing this practice a long time

to go and of course it's it's not in the

book and then there my engineers was

just having this effect when I was here

but I would take an ambulance speaker

and turn it around away from the desk

and competed against the well and

whether its spotter up against the wall

by the plan to clean back paddock

address instead of having a point source

of beta ten inches it had a wide

wavefront that's maybe eight feet across

and so it's much easier if you must I've

sounds like that is ambiences then

against to put the little speaker expect

the Ender's I don't expect to be

believable another thing that you have

to be when you're favored creating

ambiences especially that the creatures

in the end there's not birds for example

e they're not a birds in a countryside

the typical cheap way to do that is to

make a stereo birdbath and mix on your

birds in that in that crack but that

said that sounds fake

so what we do is we put as many speakers

a drug there's a story calls form around

in the forest at the set where they

would naturally be up in the trees down

in the brush over on the behind some

rock and different places and to play

different creatures from different

places

and suddenly when you play that back

there's a realism to take place because

now instead of your fear being forced to

listen to that story

or crack and try to decipher that but

you can't experience ound points come

from all of these different places as

they would in nature and then your brain

begins to create the specialization and

where they come from it's much more

reason and satisfying to address and

it's extremely believable when you do

that it's more expensive obviously but

that's that's that attention to detail

it gives you an element of reality that

is really really very desirable I'm

curious to when like how challenging it

is when you have an attraction like

Pirates of the Caribbean which is kind

of you know been described as like a

cocktail party that idea when you have

all the different pirates and some of

them are talking and someone might be

singing and everything how do you it's a

big question but how does the sound for

that like how do you plan that out and

for an attraction like that or spaceship

earth or something with a lot of

characters at one time well mostly what

you're really addressing there is

there's a problem of you don't have any

you know have isolated scene Radiator

Springs racers was a good example of

that we just had this giant building and

all the scenes were kind of in most of

that building and yet they had to play

in the same place and not pollute each

other so it becomes a advance of

choreography and spectral analysis in

other words understanding let me explain

what I mean by that they've been a

forest all the creatures live in their

own little this bird lives in this

spectral range this bird lives and their

spectral range that all of these

creatures least insects and whatever

lives in that forest has its own

particular place to live it's very much

like a corporate stuff when a components

expanding rights for an orchestra he

doesn't expect them the piccolo to

really what the elbow is going to do is

we write both of those creatures to tell

a different story point well all of

these creatures in the forest are living

in their own little niche and if we come

in there with this generator an orange

device or something that said in

yes usually better leave or die because

if that we can't survive there and we

understand that you realize we have to

clear it our sound States for the same

way things need to live in different

spectral places so they're not able to

each other one of the most difficult

times out there with a sound practice

when I get a composer who is used to

doing writing where the war he doesn't

have any good space so he feels up

perspective and I've got no place to

court and so now early on I didn't with

the composer and we're kind of joined at

the good boil and then because then we

can say off because what my corner is

this is what I plan to be here so this

is the spectral range that we have to

work with and so suddenly things work

really well you did a lot of quality and

things like that because he's living in

one place I'm living in a different

place and my individual elements are

living in different places and I'm not

stepping on each other there's

individual element you're living in

different places I'm not stepping on

each other or stepping on me and

suddenly we have clarity in your

sampling you don't have this with mud

let me very quickly happen when

everybody is trying to have the same

space to play and we utilize all of

these cliques that quest choreography

the choreography and today's multi class

consumers or multi class playback

abilities I can plan out a giant ruin of

five or six scenes and make sure that

things that would conflict happen at

different time so that they don't

conflict and so that's a matter of many

times living with the composer that it

was the writer and saying you have this

happen three seconds late stuff like

that and so when you do that you don't

have a loud explosion stepping over an

important dialogue around or something

of that nature but it really helps a lot

we have the clarity of your individual

students yeah I mean I think about

something like Indiana Jones for example

where so much is happening and you have

the Indiana Jones talking to you and

then

there's fire and then there's music and

everything and then you have the sound

of the vehicle so how do you get all

that together in any way for that or for

something like it where those sounds can

all live you kind of just described it

but I'm curious when the thrills get

added in and it's even more fast-paced

how does that work yeah every show has

its challenges and Indiana Jones was a

different kind of a challenge because

you own a vehicle any time you're on a

vehicle and you're you're moving and

especially like in anything Jones would

know in moving but you're being flashed

about you cannot be a critical listener

but you have to approach that with okay

what is the important point in the story

and what it has to be told first and one

of the things I recognized early on in

Indiana Jones was that everybody in the

country knows what it sounds like to

ride in a vehicle so we better get that

right because you can't have a pasty

little engine we're out of sync with the

body motion or it's going to be pursued

as stupid click on autosum 11 your

brains are something wrong it doesn't

matter to know what it is it's the susan

mistake that required a whole new kind

of technology and then we created that

now when we did Indiana Jones we had a

test rat Batman sir and we grow that

vehicle around that that test track of

course they were trying to you know to

run hours on it so that it would work

but I took advantage of that time and I

I realized that well let me back up one

of the ways that we have been beating

sound tracks on vehicles was create a

linear track a linear track on a vehicle

that changes speeds they're worthless

and on a vehicle like Indiana Jones or

Space Mountain or anything that moves

like a rocket roller coaster cold

vehicles hot vehicles heavy vehicles

like vehicles they're all going to get

through a particular zone at a different

time and you got to recognize that and

so I knew that an Indiana Jones only

because the pilot after issue that I

needed to make a vehicle believable I

had to have sent points weather

seconds if I had perished there as I

went around a corner it better be in the

right place

everybody's been in there what's wrong

so that's when I realized that sample

technology was the kind of technology I

needed to be back because I've been the

vehicle tells me precisely where it is

all the time to do it and so that's to

me that's what I'm gonna cut amendment

so I can use a typical through the menu

set one inquiry and I loaded all of my

challenge on that and after at Valencia

I put little that in patch with LED

lights on on the ground and I would

drive around and have a good a team just

as I was at a particular place so that I

could mark the essentially where that

everything was and I did that but I

would ride it on again and see if it

would fire in the same place I'm sure

that it was working flawlessly I also

knew that that that e3 that I'd spent on

that vehicle if not going to last more

than a week because it's got a moving

distance I'd and that vehicle is

crashing around and so that was just

kind of the first step of the treatment

point then I went to army and there was

a young man over there working that

language Jamie Robertson I always

considered him to be a genius and I went

to Jamie and I said written here's what

I mean to do you think you can help me

with this and he said yeah but I can

build one of those and he did and so he

built what's called the LCU the local

control minute then in control lights

and sounds and all the sound of staring

on a flash card and you could call that

thing eventually though when it wouldn't

pick up they just kept falling checking

and so that became the sampler that went

on the movie I filmed beautiful they

winning it in the rear chassis and when

I programmed that I distract the

keyboard for the front seat and I sat

there and played all the road sound

effects and the music in exactly where

they belong and just like you would

sitting it sit in the studio and compose

a piece of music them and guide you

through you got it right so that's the

way I did nothing

the vehicle right now of course backing

up from there you have to have a

sprinkler that they have they're gonna

play Bach on in the right place so I had

vampire thinkers underneath two in the

front and two in the back and say they

would vampire suit against the fair

board and they were playing all of the

the undercarriage so they were convinced

that they were very convincing as

engines and squeals and things like that

and then the music speakers and the

dialogue came out of the back door so

they did you rotten face so what was

working for it there was something

called signal the north the vehicle

itself has a tenancy any vehicle that

has been explained it all has a tendency

to kind of build off a bubble for rabbit

and that bubble really makes it

difficult for sounds for off-board

to get to the best and the less than 30

you know and so the idea I'm using that

to my advantage I had all the dialogue

and music playing close to the desk

blasting in their face so that those two

elements were definitely heard because

the signal was given to the best that a

greater level than the noise could

possibly be produced so that worked

there and then we contour the music and

the dialogue and effects on the vehicle

collect stronger more pronounced and

like explosions and flares and things

like that happen off more so again it's

a game of choreography you know you've

got a big explosions ooh see I'm not

sure you don't have dialogue there or a

big music moment there then they let

that play out but even if that Indiana

Jones was extremely challenging because

when we built that the technology really

wasn't where it needed to be speaker

wise we blew up so many speakers and

Indiana Jones you cannot even believe

things you wouldn't believe that you

could tear up we just turn them into

paper mache because we were trying to

drive things so incredibly hard we were

ahead of where technology was today

that's a different story when I did Tron

in control

I was playing incredibly loud stuff that

would make the stuff in Indiana Jones

seem like you know cakewalk but even at

that you're traveling very very fast and

because you are that bubble that

prevents sound from penetrating and

getting to the death there's even more

deaths and so we would have these gates

and the best would go through these

gates and they would supposed to be a

particular cron Shan that told them that

they were counting up but padding them

it was a very important story me not

understand these things were playing

back at about how did you find vegetable

that is seriously wrong I mean if you

were standing there that changed your

hair did you know what I'm talking yeah

but it's a group incredibly loud stuff

and so I went serving through there on a

timing track from one of those vehicles

and I didn't even hear this thing but I

knew it fired but I didn't even hear it

and all that this can't possibly be well

after a little bit more experimentation

I started I went off and stood on the

side of the track and then took in camp

took a camera and video where the

vehicle was when it went by that and it

turned out that the vehicle were just a

little bit out of the zone of coverage

for that particular speaker it's a very

male coverage and so what's happening is

let's say this think that is sitting

close to the track but it's that like a

30-degree pattern and that 30 degree

pattern is shooting across the track

well that gas passes through that

pattern in less than a second and so I

was in and out of that pattern and the

sound was like a second later and I

never heard because I'm completely out

of the pattern and I'm gone in further

down the price so what we tried to do

and what we ended up doing was moving

all of those speakers so that the

pattern we were shooting more up track

and so the best were in that pattern for

a longer period of time and so when that

sound went off they were absolutely good

and we were able to get our timing very

precise so

when it went off everybody in there dude

go hurry sorry it's the stuff out there

doing it with onboard audio you got the

place and those kinds of things and

you've got to realize that there's that

bundle around that vehicle and it's

really hard for anything awkward to get

into it and when you want something to

play into that double we've got to

choreograph that and said everything

that so that when it's time for that to

play

that's what play is it's it's crazy that

that thought of Tron it's almost like

you're like a a sports player you're

trying to lead a pass and somehow hit

this vehicle moving really quickly I

mean I know that's about the crudest way

I could explain it but it's so

complicated and I'm it still given the

technology and I'm curious too about

something like Tron because I know you

know the film especially the recent more

recent film has a lot of sound effects

that already are there but I know for a

theme-park it's different so I mean do

you use any of that original audio for

that or do you end up creating new

things that kind of have a similar vibe

or what a perceptive question

and the reason I say that is because

even people in my business don't realize

that you you just don't automatically

use effects made for the film in an

attraction the effects made for a film

or a matrix the two-dimensional world

and we live exclusively in the

three-dimensional world and so the

effects have to be used in a different

way so yes we would get assets from the

studios as guide tracks as reference

tracks and then we will create things

that are in the same family so that the

general public says oh that's the crown

by well see I would completely rebuild

the crown but if you look at the Tron

bike for example it's a good example of

what we just said in Tron every time you

see that but that sound lasts for

accepted outside two and a half seconds

and it's always you know

well in the attraction they're sitting

on top of that day then it's got the

last with a whole attraction so how do

you do that and so I got a Ducati

motorcycle went down to a test facility

that had a dynamo motorcycle or that

dynamo and we just put it through its

paces and then once we had that the copy

that that mast and sound that's not so

people might not want to say it's a

nasty sound but I mean it's a it's a

very weak aggressive kind of the sound

that you can do an awful lot yeah and

then we began to process that sound and

get our get our typical crong character

out of it but now you can sit on that

they can ride it through the whole

attraction or the guy in the in the guy

next to you you can believe that that's

him - then one zooms in the crash

against you you can articulate that do

what you want to do because you made it

yourself

you made it to fit the story booth and

we didn't probably do something that is

somewhere else another example of that

same kind of thing would be when we did

Endora

in the world they wanted to use all of

the sound effects from the film off of

all that before its creepers and things

like that well what people don't realize

is when these creatures are seen on the

screen that's kind of their their big

moment that's their unknown so every

sound that you live these creatures are

making it's their kind of an armlock so

you take all those creatures when all

they're on moment you try to populate an

ambience with that and you've got a

bunch of creatures that are saying look

at me look at me look at me

but it doesn't work that's not that's

not the way the real world works so you

have to go back and medically so we

remade almost all of those printers to

be believable in the soundscapes that

they simply play both you know I think

it sounded weird away from your question

I think I'm not sure oh no it's great I

love Pandora's so I that was very that's

fairly interesting to me to hear about

how that works because I feel like the

sound in that land

just the ambient sound is so so

fascinating to me and how that even

works so I would love to know to kind of

on a related note area music I feel like

is so important to a Disney park like

how like with Pandora for example or

something else that really sets the

stage and then there's these transitions

where you're going from land to land and

things have to be different and I know I

believe you've had some involvement in

that like how do you set up like you

know like you mentioned ambient sounds

and such that don't again that allow

each area to kind of live on their own

and have their own feeling especially

when they're so close together well no I

do have a lot to do with that it's part

of what I do is creating that stuff that

those sound tracks that go into those

areas I work with the composers and give

them the parameters to work with in so

it really it starts off by there's an

old method that we've been four years in

there since 1955 we've been playing you

know playlists we've been playing a

music then an execute on the next year

the next year and for a decade I've been

trying to get away from that and I've

finally been able to do that and I'll

explain that in a minute but back to the

original points of the question they're

creating the zone the first thing you

need to do is you have to create an area

we have no dead zones within the desired

place for this music is going to plus

other words you don't want to sleep

that's too far apart you don't want to

keep close together your hot spots that

you got to deal with you want to have

even coverage where ever addressed walk

a crude example of that is overhead

scene advanced and the crash if you've

got a ten-foot ceiling in a room and you

put speaker cams too far apart in there

your guests are going to go let's say to

the speaker can serve as a 90-degree peg

well that 90 degree pattern if the too

far apart in those patterns cross that

down around her waist or your needs then

the gases don't go thinking musicality

music so just kind of up and down up and

down nothing back

that's not to say you clear here if you

can't hear it but it's going up and down

and then proceed

your binders gonna say no we're wrong

with this the same thing is true then

you're going through alone you don't

want to go from a set of clothes papers

to what some bit of too far apart that

then you end up having these dips

between the speakers you want even

coverage wherever they are so that's

step one step two is the permanent way

they're zones are where your buffer

zones are and work to two zones new

particular lands might clash you create

a buffer zone there so that they can't

cry this doesn't proceed that because

the noise floor just a crowd noise floor

that apart is you know it's going to be

75 76 people just making noise and we

generally run that our backbone move it

about this I've got that same level so

it's proceed see that go music has a

couple of different applications if

wanna fish to take them to a place but

make me believe that you're there

another especially in a restaurant

environment is to create a bubble of

privacy so you can have a conversation

they go back to that signal or noise

thing there's an overall overall noise

floor that music playing you can have a

fan of conversation that's beneath that

and the family next to you can hear your

conversation so that mean that comes

into play as well you establish what

these zones are and what your story is

that you're trying to tell and now in

many cases you can tie key areas to

better lesson secrets and show that they

that quite in harmony with gentle but

but must answer you can't to do that and

so you'd have to create these buffer

zones and the other thing that we do is

we are very very careful about how we

prepare our background music tracks we

compose your sometimes bag when they

realize what we do that is it because

normally don't like music with a lot of

dynamics and if you look at that

dynamics on a meter

wishing rock your fluctuation but by the

time we get through processing it or a

background music track they look like a

straight line there is no dynamics

whatsoever to be had but but it's done

artistically so that

yes don't know that the dynamics are

sucked out but what it does is when you

go into loud areas and soft areas the

music doesn't go away and come back and

go away and come back it's always stay

it's always there it's okay to go into a

competitive park and be listening to a

piece of music and then suddenly it's

just gone

but then they don't they don't do any of

this compression processing at all they

just take it right off the list and play

it like it is

and so naturally normally that has

dynamic it's supposed to have done but

in a theme park attraction dynamics kid

in in the case of background music what

I've been leaning towards mostly and

finally I was able to convince the

powers-that-be that mostly the music

guys of this process was going to did

Shanghai that was extremely effective a

religion in Tomorrowland and we visited

Adventure al and the idea is to create

the giant bed and the bed is a there's a

piece of music that just doesn't really

go anywhere there's no melding there

that's just just chord progressions and

things good but then within this bed

actually living on top of this bed on

your melody lines and your accent pieces

and all that kind of stuff so over here

at a particular let's say at the entry

to a particular eruption you want that

to be I thought you want that to be

making a steak so you create this bed

and then create these islands that live

on top of that bed but everything is

played in sync so if you walk from one

island to the other Island the music

just naturally changes and takes on the

identity of this particular place or the

identity of that particular place but it

all feels like this same place we're

using that technology in the new Marvel

and Disney Land it what a DC a you're

going to see the very same thing there's

an overall bed that plays everywhere and

the composer is writing all these these

little islands in within the particular

places where story beats are important

and they play on top of it they quite

upset and

on top of that rewrites the music from

chapters so that the little comb that

comes in with their live shows all the

time and so entertainment knows that at

7:03 this chapter is going to end so

with you that they're going to run up an

entertainment show it's seven okay so

it's not like it used to be where they

were just come in and step all over the

background music now the background

music comes to a conclusion they start

their show and when they are back in

their show they send a flag to us that

says we're about to end I sell so what

do that but it's in a bit then we start

the next chapter and it picks up right

where it left off into the back it's a

seamless transition that seems to work

very well we've hit a similar thing for

adventure Isle but we realized that not

the sound effect now for adventure I'll

say we created a culture we created a

winery we created a music and a history

for those people so one of the things

that we did if we found a young composer

here in town Chuck jumping who his whole

life he travels around the world

recording natives their instrumentation

that musicology and he composes to what

they do and this stuff is extremely

pathetic

so we do struck to create the musical

language of this new people that we

invent and then on top of that we

created all his music plays pretty

heavily in the village but they should

go further away from the village we

begin we had him write the music in such

a way that we could peel it off and so

let's back up and go all the support

role completely away from the village

you're not the edge of the land you come

into the land and all you hear are the

jungle creatures and jungle birds and

ambulances and things like that and if

you get a little bit closer into the

next zone you begin to put things and

you think to yourself is that music I'm

not sure what that is so that the one

what is that

and then as you get a little closer

that's the best to take on a rhythm and

a structure and so the core

the village the more it becomes like

music until by the time we get to the

village it is in fact music so that's a

beautiful scenario of how this

multitrack system allows us to create

this humongous palette for the best to

walk through it and as they approach the

village they're approaching you because

they leave it there you know going back

to the forest and it's not just turning

stuff down it's like it's thinning out

the music so that it's written to be

done that happened it's brilliant the

whole thing is just I knew was gobbling

it but I mean it's really exciting to me

to to hear about what you said about

Marvel and just even adventure Isle

which I haven't been able to get to yet

out in Shanghai and now of course not

open but eventually hopefully we get

there that's great that's so complicated

I just have one more big question for

you Joe and I'm curious for you as you

look back on your career which I know is

still going what's something either a

project or just something you've

accomplished that you're just really

proud of that that you've worked with

you know that's a very hard question

because you have different different

projects your favorite for different

reasons for things that you know for

some of the projects I got to do some

really really fun things like American

journeys I spent a week in the North Sea

on the Saratoga aircraft carrier

recording at 14 what was a pretty high

point in my career and then the week

after that I spent all the Durango

Silverton train recording that train and

so those are those are fun wonderful

things to do and they might lend you to

believe that yeah those are probably

your favorite but my favorites tend to

be the ones that are really more trim

two-story I say that because we're in an

age where a technology is really

threatening the crop story and so many

things very other technologies come

along and I can't wait to write in

traction already I work very closely

with Ted and Rafferty and if your

business you know you know Kevin

reference that's writers and creative

people that we have we're so much better

off for having that young man with us

he's 41 years for the company

so so long together but we're both

powerful believers and story first and

so two of the shows that I've done with

Kevin the first word Radiator Springs

racers and the second was that showed

that I'm opening in in Florida next week

which is and Mickey and Minnie runaway

railway both of those are done with

Kevin both of those have powerful

powerful stories you can go back to

after all the years radius things like

you to go back and look at the original

story boards and say that's what we did

that's exactly what we built because

definitely Kevin walks he knows what he

won't really delve into it and he has

the team surrounded them that believes

in his story and the morning before

they're hardly to that story and that's

what story to tell and so for that

reason those because such fun to do

victory a mini runaway railway saying

we've had a vision we've conveyed that

vision to the rest of us

and we all use our skills to tell our

aspect of that story and it has come

together then probably one of the most

delightful experiences that our guests

will ever have a free number of reasons

number one it's it fuses all the

characters here is near and dear to our

hearts I mean it's making a minumum

Donald booth and basil and prudence it's

those characters that we love and it's

their first attraction you can believe

that but their beloved character stand

there put together and have delightful

story that everybody next and it was

such fun to be that it's leading with

pathology buddy no not for instance the

women allow the technology to crop the

sport if the technology did not advance

the story that did not get into the

depression working like that it's just

an awful lot of fun and those those

attractions come up to the top of my

list as being the most rewarding because

they're done right that's great to hear

especially about runaway railway because

I'm really excited to write it and

especially after hearing you talk about

it that just sounds great so so this has

been amazing Jo and I know beyond what

you

you and Imagineering I know you're

involved in a lot of other things

outside of it so you know what else do

you do I know you do a lot of other

things on the side that sound really fun

well I'm a professional Western

storyteller I travel around the world

telling Western stories and I'm one of

the top cowboy courts in the country and

so I do those things and that's very

rewarding to travel around and actually

I've got Marty Sklar was very

instrumental and making sure that I got

the company involved in there he saw a

great value and in my storytelling

within the company and he wanted me to

stay involved in that I wasn't very

encouraged by the fact that he was so

much behind that and so then really got

to the point where if I had a

storytelling gig somewhere the company

never bad of an eye they would let me go

and so I travel around the country doing

that and I really really enjoy that it's

and I think it's it's so crude for food

for business storytelling is the way

humans are wired to communicate it's the

very best way to evoke emotion and

persuade and could be able to do that

and to sit in front and in front of a

bunch of people and tell them explore

and have them completely absorbed and

letting their imagination pen cassettes

and dress the landscape and see them

being absorbed in that sport is

extremely rewarding we see it all the

private business but to be able to go

out and do it on that sounds exciting

I am glad that you've had the ability to

do that like you mentioned it definitely

connects to what Disney does with

storytelling and this has been great I

feel like I know I've learned a lot and

you've had a lot of great background in

cool stories so thanks so much for

talking with me well absolutely we kind

of just scratched the surface but you

bet you

if you liked this episode you should

definitely check out my conversations

with Greg meter and Glen Barker all

about sound design mixing sound

retractions so much more you can find

that at tomorrow's society dot-com I'm

also coming up on my 100th episode of

the podcast something I want to do on

that show is do a Q&A with questions

from you with the listeners or certain

topics anything you'd like me to talk

about on that show shoot me an email Dan

at tomorrow society dot-com send me a

message on Twitter at tomorrow SOC

Facebook or Instagram you can also put

something out there on Twitter with the

hashtag tomorrow Society 100 and I will

see that too I just want to get into a

bunch of different things that you're

interested in make it really fun to

celebrate the hundredth episode of this

show the Tomorrow society podcast is

hosted produced and edited by the

unheeding the music was written by Adam

hooky and performed by the sophisticated

babies next time I am talking all about

Universal Orlando with fellow podcaster

at Jessica Lise she has a really

interesting take about how we might not

be giving Universal a fair shake

especially with young kids I think

you're gonna really enjoy this show it

was a lot of fun thank you so much for

listening

I'll talk to you again next time

[Music]