Robert Greene: How To Seduce Anyone, Become Powerful & Irreplaceable

The source of your power, I don't care

who you are or wherever you grew up, is

being different from other people. If

you have a skill that makes you

different and unique, then you have

power because you can't be replaced.

Making it that people depend on you is

an extremely powerful position to be in.

The question is, how do you get into

that position?

>> Does power look differently for men

versus women?

>> Women have skills that I think make them

in some ways superior in the game of

power. The art of seduction, I can tell

you very simply, is when I leave you and

you're thinking about me, I have seduced

you. The weakness that we all have is

that we don't have enough pleasure and

things that raise us out of the

finalities of everyday life. If you're a

man or a woman and you know how to give

people a taste of that pleasure and get

them eating out of your hand and running

after you, you are a master seducer or

seductress. Words are the woman's

weakness. For men, it's appearances.

It's visuals. For women, a lot of it

revolves around ideas and thoughts and

fantasies.

>> Is there a way for someone to cultivate

this magnetic seductive aura?

>> There's one path that is the most

powerful of all that is

>> Hello everyone and welcome back to

today's episode. We have a very special

guest joining us today. Someone that I

have been following for a very long

time. His name is Robert Green. He's one

of the most influential authors of our

time. known for his best-selling books,

The 48 Laws of Power, The Art of

Seduction, and The Laws of Human Nature,

amongst many others. Robert, thank you

so much for being here today and taking

the time.

>> My pleasure, Francesca. I'm very

excited.

>> I'm super excited as well. And as I

mentioned before, one of your

bestselling books is The 48 Laws of

Power, which by the way, I heard it was

banned in prisons. Is that true?

in some prisons in the United States,

most notably like um Utah, Pennsylvania,

and I believe Texas.

>> Yeah.

>> What What is that about? Why?

>> Well, um I get um emails from prisoners

who explain to me what it's about. And

essentially in prison, they try and

curate your experience. They don't want

any friction. They don't want any

confrontation. They want to completely

control you. Right? M

>> and this is a book that can tell you how

power operates, how people can try to

manipulate you. And so if you're a

prisoner, if you can imagine it isn't I'

look, I've never been in prison, but I

can imagine it's a very frightening

experience, right? You're surrounded by,

if you're a man, you're surrounded by

all these aggressive, threatening people

and um you just don't know where you

are. And then you're also dealing with

the prison system which can be very

intimidating. So it's a book that

teaches you how to handle

really powerful situations like that.

And people in who run prisons don't want

their prisoners having that kind of

knowledge. So that's basically why it's

banned.

>> Wow. That just goes to show how powerful

this book is. So amazing. And I want to

start by asking you what is power? like

what does it mean to be a powerful

person?

>> You know, in our life um we can't

control everything, right? You don't

control who your parents are, where you

were born into, the time that you live

in. And so many circumstances that occur

in your life are things that are are

random. They're just circumstances you

have no control over. Okay? But the

sense for a human being to have no

control over your life or anything

around you, no control over your

children, over your spouse, over your

colleagues at work, over your boss is

terrible. It's a terrifying feeling and

we don't like it. So, we try to gain

some kind of power, some kind of

control. But we're social animals,

right?

>> And and people are very tricky. I don't

know if you know if you've experienced

how tricky people are. You probably

have. They don't tell you what they're

thinking. They wear these masks. They're

very elusive. They smile and they say,

"Oh, I love your podcast, Francesca."

But deep down they don't feel that at

all. Right? People are very tricky.

They're very political. Okay? So power

is the ability to understand the social

elements of life, the political

elements, the egos that people have. so

that you can navigate this very tricky

environment and not make so many

terrible mistakes that you end up having

trouble, you know, causing yourself all

sorts of problems. So, you can gain a

little degree of control over yourself,

over your own emotions, over your own

irrationality,

and over the people around you. Not that

you are going to be a master

manipulator, but that you can see

through the manipulations that other

people are working on you and have more

of a control over everything that's

going on around you. To me, that is

power.

>> And I can't wait to talk about all the

things you mentioned, including

manipulation and how to spot it.

>> Um, but first of all, I want to ask,

what are some signs that someone is

powerful? that you've met someone who's

powerful.

>> Well, um that's a very good question. Um

you know, it's hard to gauge how

powerful a person is personally in their

in their um presence. Now, I know for

instance, I did a book with 50 Cent

called the 50th law. And in his

presence, you can sense that this guy

has power, right? But the way you judge

a person's power is not their personal

presence but by their actions by the

results of what of things that they can

get done. Now a lot of that has to do

with your appearance how you appear to

people your charisma how you come across

but also a lot of it so sometimes

somebody can appear to be very powerful.

I don't know if you've had this

experience, Francesca, but you'll be at

work and you have a boss who appears to

be very powerful, very strong, very

aggressive, but actually their actions

aren't effective. They don't get things

done well. People don't like them. Okay?

So, you have to learn to judge people by

their actions, by the results of what

they do. And that's what reveals whether

a person is powerful or not. Sometimes

people seem powerful, but they're

actually very weak and insecure inside.

So, I like to look at the results. I

like to see, oh, that company is doing

really well. It's making a lot of money.

Oh, that political figure is solid in

their his or her power. Or that artist

is creating things that are lasting that

are very popular and successful. I like

to look at the results and not get so

bewitched by people's personal

appearance.

It reminds me of a study I read which

was talking about power and influence

and how it's made up of, you know,

charisma and the personal element you

mentioned and appearance but also

competence and if competence is lacking

which is what you were talking about

then you know the appearance and

everything else doesn't matter at the

end of the day. So it was competence

that was most important the skills and

yeah so super interesting

>> and you know you wrote about 48 laws but

are there some laws that you think are

most important?

Well, everything depends on you as an

individual, you know. So, um, some

people have certain strengths, some

people have certain character traits

that lend themselves to a law or that

they're not good at that they should be

good at. So, one of the laws I think is

very important is interaction with

boldness.

And what that means is when you begin a

project, when you enter into a

relationship, when you enter into any

kind of business um environment,

the way you begin, the way you will

present yourself, if it's bold, if

you're confident, if you think this

project is going to be extremely

successful, it's going to do well. It

infects other people that get drawn into

it. And because you appear confident, it

makes it seem that you know what you're

doing, that you have that competence

that you mentioned, right? But you've

you've we've all experienced this. If

you're around somebody who's timid,

who's insecure, who's anxious in a

social situation, it makes you timid and

anxious, right? But if you're around

somebody powerful, you get caught up in

it. So having that kind of boldness,

people are in this world today,

particularly now in 2026,

people are too timid. They're so afraid.

They're so afraid of being different

from other people. They're so cowardly,

right? They want to fit in. And I'm

telling you, your boldness, your abil,

you're you're not afraid to be

different. You're not afraid to take

risks is what will translate into power.

That's an very very important one. And

there are others. It depends on the

circumstances. So, um I have a law, I

can't remember the exact title. It's

about creating dependence.

So,

if you're trying to have some power in

this world, if you have a skill that

nobody else has, if you have a an

ability that makes you different and

unique, then you have power because you

can't be replaced. But if you're working

in an office or in some environment like

that and you're just like everybody

else, you have you don't have that kind

of irreplaceable quality. When you reach

the age of 28, 29 or 30, they're going

to find somebody younger who they can

pay less to replace you. So not being

replaceable, making it that people

depend on you. you're the only person

that can get something done is an

extremely extremely powerful position to

be in. Of course, the question is how do

you get into that position? And that's

what I talk about in the chapter. So,

you have to kind of read that chapter

and I explain how you can accomplish

that.

>> Can I ask you how can you accomplish

that?

>> Well, um

there are several ways you do that. So

um you have to think first of all in

this particular business that you're in

whatever it is right what is that skill

that I can do that nobody else can do

right okay so they're going to be other

people around you and you're all going

to basically have the same kind of

training the same background that makes

you kind of similar right what is it

that can make you stand out what is the

thing that you have the skill the power

the quality it can be personal, it could

be technical, that is different from

everybody else. And then you lean on

that skill and you make it very strong

and you make it clear to the people

working in your business or wherever you

are that to get rid of you is going to

be very very costly. Okay? So it depends

on the job that you're in. I can't say

it a general strategy that'll work

everywhere. But just focus on this one

thing.

If they want to fire me, they're going

to pay a terrible price because they

won't find anybody else that'll be able

to do what I can do. So, you need to

find those things that you can do that

nobody else can do that they're not

going to it's going to be very very um

impactful and very painful for them to

fire you whatever that will be in your

particular situation. Also, having a lot

of allies within your company. So, you

have you know you just you just don't

rely on one person in in the business.

You just don't have like one like a boss

who supports you. You have in the

different departments or different areas

of your job. You have three or four

people that like you that are allied

with you. And so to get rid of you is

also going to cause friction in the

company and a lot of other people are

going to be upset. I mean, Franchesca, I

could go into dozens of strategies on

that, but that should give you a kind of

idea. But I recommend reading that

chapter.

>> Yeah, absolutely. And I encourage my

listeners also to do that. And you

mentioned before, you know, that

especially in today's day and age, 2026,

people are more timid. I wanted to ask

you why. Why is that?

>> Well, you know, I don't mean to judge it

so much because there are reasons for

these things. And you know um and I

didn't grow up in this world that you

know in the internet age. I'm much older

than that. So um if I grow up now, if I

had been born in the '9s or the 2000s, I

would probably be the same as other

people. It's very understandable. But a

lot of it has to do with social media to

be quite frank. I mean there are many

causes for it. So, I don't mean to make

it simple, but one of the main causes is

social media because you become so hyper

aware of what other people are doing

around you, right? And you're so afraid

of being different, you're feeling like

if if you're different from the group,

people are going to judge you because

you're so aware of what everybody else

is doing. Back when I was growing up,

people only only my friends knew what I

was up to and I was only had

interactions with them, right? And so to

be different when I was growing up to be

a non-conformist was a lot easier and

less painful.

But nowadays, you want to fit in. You

want to have the same tastes as other

people. You want to have, you know,

you're all interested in the same memes.

you you're you focus on the same things

on social media and it gives incredible

pressure for you to conform and to be

like other people and to be different.

It seems seems painful seems you know

something you don't want. The other

thing is this world has become much more

chaotic and difficult than it was in my

day. Right? There were so many things

that have intervened in the last 15 20

years that can make people very timid

and very conservative. So you had the

crash in 2008

then you had uh co right and then you

have the all the disturbances the

financial things that are going on these

days. It's very very chaotic, difficult

world that people particularly who are

young are having to navigate and it's

very stressful and it's very dangerous.

So you naturally when when humans are

faced with chaotic situations,

they become conservative. They want to

try and control everything. And so

there's a lot less openness to being

different, to being a non-conformist.

But I tell people, so I wrote a book

called Mastery. I don't know if you're

familiar with the book Mastery.

>> Yeah.

>> But um

the source of your power in life, I

don't care who you are or wherever you

grew up or how old you are, the source

of your power is being different from

other people, it's your uniqueness.

If you look at at people in music or in

film or in politics that are powerful,

there is nobody else like them. They are

unique. They're one of a kind. And you,

every single person out there in your

audience has that quality. You all have

something unique about who you are. And

when you lean into that, when you're

strong on that, you're going to stand

out from others and you're going to be

powerful. But if you're so afraid and

you're so wanting to be like other

people and you're so worried about

people's judgments and criticisms, then

you're going to have a very it's going

to be very tough for you in life.

>> Absolutely. That makes so much sense.

And I actually wanted to ask you, how do

you go about finding that uniqueness and

that source of power within? Do you have

any practical strategies?

Well, you're asking all the tough

questions. I spend like hours trying to

answer that. It's all right. It's all

right.

>> Well,

in in mastery, I I have a chapter on

that. The first chapter, it's called

discover your life's task. And I don't

mean to brag or anything, but to me,

it's the most important thing I've ever

written. Because if you don't understand

who you are as an individual, of what

makes you unique, of what could possibly

be the source of your success in life,

you're going to have a very hard time,

right? So, you have to know who you are.

You have to figure out the puzzle that

you represent. Okay? So, the image that

I try and tell people is you your DNA

that you have as an individual is

unique. It's not like anybody else in

the past, in the present or in the

future. Okay? So, you are marked right

there as an individual. You are

completely unique the way your brain is

wired. All right? And then you have your

parents who are also have their own

uniqueness and they raised you. And so,

you're raised like nobody else in the

world. And then you have friends and

experiences when you're three, four,

five years old that are unlike

experiences of anybody else.

All of that stamps you as somebody

completely different, completely unique.

Okay? And when you're a child, when

you're three years old, four years old,

you kind of have a sense of that. You

don't have to. It's not about words or

anything that you can naturally think.

It's an inclination. It's an impulse.

It's an intuition. I'm attracted to

sports. I'm attracted to physical

activity. I like patterns and music. I'm

interested in words and language. I like

to fix things. I'm good with my hands. I

have mechanical skills. I'm really good

with people. I have social skills.

There's something when you're very young

that you're attracted to that makes that

that is very powerful, right? It has

nothing to do with thinking or words.

It's something preverbal. You're drawn

to it. Okay?

And then when you get older, you stop

hearing that voice. You stop you you

lose contact with what makes you so

different. And you start listening to

other people. You listen to your parents

who tell you you need to get a job and

make a lot of money. You listen to your

friends who tell you what's cool. Listen

to teachers. You listen to to bosses.

And you lose complete contact with that

source of what makes you different from

everybody else. And in mastery, I talk

about all these very successful, famous

people, some of whom I interviewed for

the book. And in each case, you can go

back to that moment when they were four

or five years old and something happened

where they go, "Wow, I'm so excited by

this." Right? It could be Martha Graham,

the great um dancer, the great

choreographer, and how she just got

entranced by physical movement when she

was like eight years old, or Steve Jobs

passing by a window where there were all

these electronic things in there, and

he's going, "Wow, how beautiful it is.

I'd love to design those things." right?

Or Albert Einstein getting a compass

when he was four years old and marveling

at the fact that something invisible was

moving the needle on the compass. When

you're a child, these things are very

obvious. You're so drawn to them. You

have to go back and you have to figure

out what it is that you are so excited

about that that had that kind of power

over you when you were very young. It's

very complicated, Francesca. So, if

you're 19,

it's very it's it's very easy and much

easier to go through this process and

it's very important that you do. By the

time you're 30 and you haven't thought

about it, it gets harder. If you're 40

or 50, it's almost too late. So, it's

better to begin figuring this out,

figuring out who you are, figuring out

what you love and what you're excited

about. You know, if you love something,

if you're interested in a subject, you

learn and you absorb information much

more quickly, much faster, right? Than

if you're decide to become a lawyer

because your parents tell you that

that's how you can make a lot of money,

but you're not really interested. You're

not really engaged. You're not going to

learn at such a fast rate that as

opposed to, wow, I love music and this

absorbs me. You're going to learn

quickly. you're going to learn in two

years what would take somebody five or

six years to learn because they're not

interested in it. So it's extremely

important process to go through and a

lot of people come to me with this

problem. They go Robert I can't figure

out what my life's task is

and we have to go through a process that

I could explain. That's that's that's

quite involved. But it's a matter of

digging into your past and digging into

who you are and the kinds of things that

you love and the kinds of things that

you hate. I don't know if that answers

your question. I went kind of

>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's such a

fascinating topic. I'd love to learn

more about it. I think

>> you know what you mentioned about,

>> you know, going back to your childhood

is so so valuable and it's true for me

as well. And

>> well, tell me about yourself. What was

that about yourself?

>> Well, first of all, I really liked um

asking questions. I've always been

really curious and really fascinated by

human psychology.

And you know, I thought, okay, maybe

I'll be a psychologist and you know,

maybe I'll go down that path. But that

was too limiting for me. And it wasn't

using other skills because I also liked

being on stage and acting. And so I kind

of found this perfect path for myself

where all these things that I like to do

were combined because now I'm like a

psychology content creator and I have a

podcast and I'm like I'm kind of acting

on stage but also you know interviewing

people like yourself and you know it it

kind of tied in really beautifully.

>> When did when did that all start to come

together for you? When were you able did

you go through some moments where you

weren't so so uh keyed in on what on

this kind of thing? I mean when did it

happen for you?

>> Yeah, absolutely. I mean for most of my

life I didn't know what my career path

would look like. I guess kids nowadays

they know they want to be an influencer

or YouTuber but you know when I was

younger it was still like the most the

more traditional roles like okay you

could work in marketing. is not just

doctor or lawyer but you know you h

still have to kind of choose a career

path and it wasn't until

>> maybe I was 18 19 that you know I found

out like okay there's actually

alternatives and you can make money from

these things and that could be a career

path. So it's it's super fascinating. I

want to know also about you like when

did you discover you know this passion

for writing and everything you do now?

Well, um, you know, it's it's uh when I

was probably about eight years old or so

or or even younger, I had this thing

about words. I thought words were kind

of like magic and um just the sound of

words. I'm very a person that's very

into the sounds of things and I love

hearing language and when I write

something, I'm always hearing it in my

head first. And so words kind of

obsessed me at a very early age. And

then

when I was about eight years old, I I

sudden we got this thing in school where

you could um they gave you a pamphlet

and you could buy these books if you put

a little check by them and there would

be like you know hundreds of book titles

in there. They were for children, books

for children. And I remember I ticked

off about 80 of these books. My parents

got really upset because 80 books were

delivered. They had to pay for it. But I

I got so into reading. Suddenly reading

became like this magical world. I mean

think of it. I tell people reading a

book if you think about what it is it is

like magic. It is like a total process

of enchantment. You're entering into the

mind of another person who's weaving

this if it's fiction, weaving this

imaginary world. And for a child, for

me, it was like I was so in love with

this. I wanted to be a writer. And then

like you, I couldn't figure out where

exactly my writing would fit. Right? It

wasn't in journalism that I tried. I

tried writing novels. That didn't work.

I got into Hollywood. I tried writing

screenplays that didn't work. And then

suddenly it clicked with writing a

non-fiction book with giving the chance

to write the 48 laws of power. And then

everything came together just like it

did for you in podcasting.

But the main thing is I I never gave up.

I had a lot of pain. I didn't have

success until I was almost 40 years old.

And so, but I never gave up. I knew that

this is what I was meant to do. I knew

that this was I was different from other

people in this one thing. And so I I

never had doubts. I just kept trying and

trying and trying and trying.

>> That's incredibly inspiring. And I love

I think a lot of people, you know,

they're in their 30s or 40s and they

feel lost and they feel like I should

have already found that thing or my path

or and they haven't and they feel maybe

like failures. And you know, it's so

inspiring to hear a story like yours and

know that

>> no, you don't have to be in your 20s or

15 to find your life path. You could be

40, you could be 50, you could be much

older than that.

So, thank you so much for sharing that.

>> Yeah. Well, um, like you, um, I had many

different sides to my personality. I

also liked kind of acting and performing

and being out in public and stuff. I had

many different interests. I liked

fiction. I liked stories, but I also

liked history. How can you possibly put

all that together into one skill into

into making money and having a living in

life? That's was the puzzle I couldn't

solve.

And finally I solved it. There was also

some luck involved I have to admit. You

know I met a man who was a book producer

of books. He asked me for an idea for a

book if I had any. And I improvised the

48 laws of power. If I hadn't met him I

wouldn't be talking to you right now. So

luck certainly intervenes in our career

paths. Right. But opportunities are

always there for for people. I don't

know how your opportunity to do podcast

came about, but if you're ready, if the

moment is right, you will you will seize

that opportunity.

>> Absolutely. I love that. That's amazing.

And just going back to talking about,

you know, the laws of power. I wanted to

ask also, does power look differently

for men versus women?

>> Yeah, it's a great question. Um,

I I think it's um a lot harder for

women, you know, because what they're

judged by, the standards they're judged

by, makes the game more difficult. So,

we should have much more respect in our

culture for women who do make it, who

are successful because they have to go

through so many more hurdles than a man

does. So if a man is kind of tough and a

little bit mean and a little bit hard,

it's okay because that's part of being

masculine. That's part of what goes

with. But if a woman has these

qualities, she's a right? And

that's not seen, you know? So women have

to be so much more careful about the

steps that they take, you know? So some

of the laws that I have in there are

kind of strong. And if a woman uses

them, she's going to be judged very

negatively negatively. Whereas suppose a

man will be admired for those same

qualities.

So, but the thing is

women have skills and of course we're

generalizing here. It's absurd, but

women have qualities that I think make

them in some ways superior in the game

of power to men. Okay. So, I mentioned

earlier that we're social animals. We're

very political. People are tricky. They

don't reveal who they are. They don't

reveal what they're thinking. But women,

at least traditionally, and maybe

they're losing it now, I don't know, are

much more sensitive to the social world.

They're much more sensitive the way they

are raised, to what people are feeling,

right? To what might be going on in

their heads. They're more socialized.

They're more sensitive to what to what's

going on in a group. That kind of of

empathy, that kind of thinking inside of

what's going on in people's minds is

very very powerful tool in the game of

power.

So whereas women have to jump through

hurdles that make it more complicated

and difficult for them, they have

natural skills that in a group setting

as a leader or working in a group can

make them superior actors. Because men

tend to be so involved in their egos and

in their own worlds and in their own

ideas and thoughts that they can be very

insensitive and very coarse and not

understand. If you're a leader and

you're dealing with all these different

people and you're not attuned to their

different personalities, it can be very

counterproductive.

Women have a a greater ability to tune

into those kinds of things. I know I'm

generalizing,

but in the world today where power is

becoming more subtle, more difficult,

that skill of understanding people, of

being better at the social game is, I

think, a great advantage. So in some

ways

um in the future I think there's going

to be women are going to be infinite

going to be much more powerful. The game

is going to equalize because right now

it's not equal.

>> Maybe you should write 48 laws of power

for women next. I' I've been asked to do

that but you know I'm a man

and uh I don't know these you know I can

get inside the experiences of other

people. I get inside the experiences of

animals. I'm an animal lover. I have

cats and I'm always thinking of what

they're thinking and what's going on in

their world. So I can enter into I can

imagine what it could be like to be a

woman. But there are limits to that

game. So for instance,

>> I do know that in the moments of my life

where people judged me for how I look,

for the clothes that I wear or for, you

know, my hair or how I look. I hated

that, man. I hated that. I think that is

I found that so offensive and so

upsetting to me. But then I think, God,

women have to deal with that all of the

time. that's like so much of their life.

I couldn't I couldn't endure that. It

would drive me crazy. So, if you think

in terms of that, if you think of what

uh women experience or what men

experience if you're a woman and try and

imagine what their world is like, you

can gain more insights into how into the

difficulties or the problems or the

advantages that they have.

>> Absolutely.

And yeah, it's it's just always horrible

and sad when people, you know, are being

offensive and judge you and it's but

whether you're a man or women because I

feel like men are more are becoming more

aware of how they look nowadays as well

with social media and everything. So it

used to be more women but men are

equally you know offended by these kind

of things and

um you know in the art of seduction you

talk about seduction archetypes. I was

curious if there's also power archetypes

if you know you mentioned power can look

in different ways based on your gender.

Are there some other power archetypes

you could talk about?

Well, yeah. I mean, that's a a great

question. I think when I originally was

doing the 48 laws of power, I was going

to do something similar to that. I mean,

you have people So, uh, in the in the 48

laws of power, one of the types was

seducers. And that's why I decided to

write the art of seduction. So,

seducers, seduction is a form of power,

is a form of soft power.

Then you have people who are absolutely

brilliant at the game of attention,

right? A lot of that's in social media,

influencers, etc. They know how to gain

attention. Either it's by being

ridiculous and clownlike or it's by

being very funny and humorous, or it's

by saying things that are extremely

interesting and provocative to people.

So there there's there's one law in

there about court attention at all cost.

So there are types of people who are

absolutely brilliant at the attention

game, right? Okay. So that's one thing.

The seducers are the other type. Then

there are people

who are master manipulators. Okay. Now

gaining attention and being a seducer,

you know, involves some manipulation.

But there are others who are just

absolutely brilliant at that. And what

that requires is the ability to think

several moves in advance and also

understand the weaknesses of the people

around you. Okay? And so among the group

of manipulators, I would I would

classify two different types. They're

the aggressive manu manipulators who

know how to push people around, who know

how to press certain buttons and get you

upset and worried and anxious and they

know how to kind of manipulate your

emotions. Then there are the clever,

intriguing types who are much more

political and they think three moves in

advance. So I'm working in this office.

If I get this particular person

interested in my idea that could advance

me a little further, then they're going

to connect me to this other person.

They're thinking several moves in

advance. They're very clever

strategists. So there there's the

manipulators, they're the great

strategists in the world, they're the

attention seekers, there are the

seducers.

Uh um I don't know there I'm sure there

are others but that's those are some of

the types that I would imagine I would

mention. If you give me time Francesca I

could come up with four or five other

types but you know that should do for

now.

>> That's absolutely fine and it's super

valuable to know about these types of

power. And you know, talking about

manipulation,

um, I was curious, can you pinpoint some

techniques that someone might be using

on you to try to manipulate you?

>> Yes. Um well the main thing that you

need to do the main protection you need

in life is

to recognize the type of people who are

manipulators before you get involved

with them.

So people who are

malignant narcissists for instance who

and and the game of people who are

malignant narcissists is to get is to

infect your emotions to gain control

over your emotions to create all kinds

of drama where they're making you react.

They're making you upset and they're in

complete control of that. Okay. So

that's like one of the worst forms of

manipulators that are out there. But

once you get involved with someone like

that, the way you can recognize that

you're being manipulated is by the

emotional reactions people are

turnurning up that you cannot control.

They're making you angry. They're making

you upset. They're making you excited.

And then that excitement changes into

fear, into insecurity.

You feel constantly emotional, like

you're being played, right? But you

don't realize it sometimes in the moment

because when we get emotional, we're we

we don't think very well. We don't we're

not being very rational. So you can

recognize it when people by your

reactions, by how emotional you are and

how it's constantly shifting.

The problem is is that by the time you

realize that it's almost too late

because you're so upset, you're so

entangled in their power games that it's

very hard to get yourself out of it. So

the best defense in this world

is to recognize the manipulators before

you get involved with them.

First of all, you notice that they have

a track record that they've manipulated

other people that they have a lot of

enemies in this world, right? If they

have a lot of enemies in this world,

that must mean something. Okay? But um

you also are attuned

to their body language, to the

non-verbal communication cues that

people give. When people look at you,

their eyes reveal a lot. Their eyes

reveal that they're actually interested,

they're actually engaging.

Manipulators have this kind of distance

in their eyes as if they're thinking as

you can hear them thinking. They're not

like looking at you. They're kind of

going, "Wow, what can I what can I say

to get this person interested in me?"

The eyes reveal a lot about whether

people are outwardly focused or inwardly

focused.

and be very attuned to the body

language, to what seems authentic and

what is fake. I mean, these are some

cues, but the most important thing is to

be aware of your emotions and how you're

being played and how they're constantly

shifting because of all the drama that

this person is stirring up.

>> That's very useful. And those are some

really great signs to look out for. And

I always think about it as a roller

coaster. Sorry.

>> Have you ever dealt Have you ever dealt

with someone who was a who was a great

manipulator?

>> Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Great

social

>> great social manipulator. It was a

woman. It was a girl actually. She was

quite young. But she had this since she

was a baby, she had this ability. I

think it was just narcissism to be

honest. And I don't use that term

lightly. I don't like throwing it

around, but I think she was actually, if

there's one person in the world, she was

definitely diagnosed with narcissism.

And you know, she could just um take you

on this roller coaster of emotions from

like hate to love to excitement to fear,

everything you mentioned. And she could

really control the group dynamic. So if

she wanted someone excluded, she would

make everyone else turn against the

other person. And no one in the group

actually liked her, but they were all

kind of scared of her. And it's it

wasn't like this was the boss or someone

who had real power over other people.

But the way she can manipulate people,

honestly, it was impressive. You know, I

I didn't like her at all, but it was

impressive. I was like, "Wow, this is

crazy."

So, yeah, there's definitely people like

that.

Yeah,

>> it's amazing as you say what one person

can do and how they can completely

disrupt and dominate a group dynamic,

>> you know, and and you want to wonder

what is it about them and what is that

skill or what are they doing that gives

them that power? It's a fascinating

subject. Why don't you like using the

word narcissist?

I just think people nowadays throw it

around overuse. Everyone's a narcissist.

My mom's a narcissist. My dad's a nar,

my boyfriend's a narcissist, you know,

because they did one thing. And I think

we're all narcissists to a degree or

another. I think

>> it's a spectrum.

And then you know the people that are

>> actually diagnosed with it I think it

was like one or two% of the population

whereas everyone thinks everyone's a

narcissist. So you know I think there's

a difference like sure you can have

narcissistic qualities or behaviors or

you can be more narcissistic and then

you can be more selfless in in different

contexts but yeah I just don't like to

throw that term around you know as

easily as most people do.

Well, yeah. Would you agree?

>> Yes, I do agree. In the laws of human

nature, I have a chapter on narcissism

and I say that we are all narcissists.

We are all self-absorbed by our nature

as human animals in the 21st century.

It's unavoidable

that we think first and foremost of

oursel that we're more interested in our

own ideas than in other people's ideas.

You know, it's natural and it's normal.

But what happens is that um you have

people who are somewhat healthy with

their narcissism, they're aware of it

and they have a degree of self-love and

self-respect

so that when bad things happen to them

and they and they start feeling

depressed and low, they're able to raise

themselves back up because they have a

degree of self-love. So self-love is not

a bad thing. It's actually a very good

and powerful thing. And what happens

with terrible narcissists, the 1%, I

would say to me, I think it's more like

5%, but who knows? It's just a number.

>> You're probably right.

>> When bad things when bad things happen

and they and they start feeling upset

and insecure, they don't have that

self-love to raise them back up. the

only way that they can feel okay about

it is to start hurting other people to

start creating drama and getting

attention instead of an internal voice

that goes, "You're not so bad. Let's

let's let's, you know, just wait it out.

Things will get better." They go, "I'm

so desperate. I'm so upset. I'm so

angry. I have to get attention. I have

to get other people. I have to

manipulate other people." They cannot

raise themselves back up. So to be to

have some love for yourself, to have

some self-esteem is actually a very good

and positive and powerful thing.

>> Absolutely. And I think that's an

amazing way to differentiate people who

are actually narcissistic diagnosed and

then people who are just, you know,

normal and are just on the spectrum,

narcissistic spectrum. And

>> yeah. Yeah. I think spectrum is a good

word for it. Yeah.

M and you know you were you mentioned

seduction and you said also that

manipulation is kind of part of it. I

was wondering what is seduction?

>> Well uh seduction is a form of power. So

um

you know uh

people um have a weakness in life. Okay.

And the weakness that we all have,

myself included, everybody on this

planet, is that we don't have enough

pleasure. Okay? We don't have enough

fun. We don't have enough excitement. We

don't have enough theater and drama and

things that are that raise us out of the

finalities of everyday life. We're

hungry for that, right? We have to work.

We have to handle all the business

things in our life. Life can be really

drudgery and difficult and painful.

And so that weakness is the fact that we

want pleasure. We want to get out of our

day-to-day world. We want to get out of

the benalities that are weighing us

down. So along comes a person, a man or

a woman

or an animal because animals seduce. Um,

and they they say, "All right, I'm going

to give this person a taste of some

pleasure, a taste of some thrill, a

taste of some excitement. It could be

sexual, but doesn't have to be sexual.

It could be an adventure. You know, men

are very much seduced by women who are

offering an adventure because they like

the thrill of the hunt. They like to

chase. They like anything that has a

little bit of danger involved. Okay. So,

what you're offering is something that

people don't normally get in their

day-to-day life. If you're a man or a

woman and you know how to give people a

taste of that pleasure and get them

eating out of your hand and running

after you, you are a master seducer or

seductress. That is the art. It is

knowing people's weakness and need for

to be taken out of their boring

day-to-day life and playing on that to

seduce them, to make them fall in love,

to make them vote for you in election,

to sell them a product in marketing,

whatever it is. It's all the same

psychology.

>> So, seduction is not just in the

romantic context. It could be in any

kind of context,

>> of course. I mean, to win an election

these days as a politician,

you have to be really good at media,

right? It's a new phenomenon. It wasn't

necessarily like that 200 years ago. Um,

you have to, it's not that you're not

just a good speaker, but you're good on

television, you're good on social media,

you're good, you know, in any kind of

image um orientation, right? So, you

have to be a seducer. You have to know

that voters

are missing something. Usually in an

election, what that is is people want

change. They're bored and they're tired

with the same Labor party, Republicans,

Democrats. I want change. I want things

different. You know how to appeal to

that. You're a seducer. You're giving

them something that they don't have. In

marketing, you're figuring out audiences

are so inundated with this particular

approach. here's a new approach that's

going to get their attention, right? And

make them excited. That's seduction,

okay? You're working in an office and

you're not you don't want to be sexually

seducing people in your office,

hopefully. Okay, but you know that

people want to be liked. They want

respect. They want validation.

You want to you want to feel that your

ideas are great ideas. Well, that's what

that person does in this in the work

office. It's called a charmer. That's

one of the types of seducers. They know

how to make you feel great about

yourself. That's a seduction.

Social, political, sexual, marketing,

it's all the same.

>> Very interesting. So, besides the

charmer, what are the other archetypes

of seduction?

Well, uh, starting at the beginning,

there's the siren. So, I maintain in the

art of seduction that it is women that

invented the art of seduction and the

most ancient archetypes of seduction are

women and the siren is the preeeminent

female seductress

and it has a very physical component to

it. Uh, a seduct a siren has a very

powerful sexual energy that isn't

obvious. It's not like they go around

naked or anything, but it's in their

aura. I often when I'm watching a movie

and I'm looking at actresses,

I can see I can feel it in them. I don't

know what it is exactly, but I know one

of the archetypes that I talk about is

Marilyn Monroe. And Marilyn Monroe

would literally make love to the camera.

She wanted you to love her, right?

Right? And so she was so vulnerable and

so open and that gave her that kind of

siren presence. But it's a sort of

physical quality that men only really a

man can appreciate because the siren is

a powerful sedu seductress of men. A man

feels that energy in the woman and is

really drawn to it. Also, sirens are

very theatrical. They create a lot of

drama. They create fantasy. like

Cleopatra was creating incredible

fantasies. So that's the siren. On the

flip side is the male seducer because

all the other types can be male or

female, but these two types are

generally one or the other.

Is the rake. That's the most primal

powerful form of male seduction is the

rake. And the rake is a man

who really understands and really likes

women. He's very interested in women. He

was probably had sisters that had a

strong mother and he was around women.

He likes them. He appreciates them. He

understands their psychology, their

needs. The thing is he's never satisfied

by one woman.

It's after a couple of months he's on to

somebody else. Okay? But in those two

months that a rake is interested in you,

no woman can resist him because he fills

you with so much attention that's so

focused on you and it's not like creepy

attention. It's not like a stalking

attention. It's loving romantic

attention that you don't get from any

other men man because men are so

interested in their work and their

business. They don't even they don't

care about women's things. This man is

all focused on you. He understands you.

He's giving you what you want. No woman

can resist it. And men who are rakes are

also very good with words

because words are the woman's weakness.

A man who can speak well, who can weave

stories and poetic things with his with

his tongue is extremely seductive.

Right? For men, it's appearances. It's

visuals. It's that sexual energy. For

women, a lot of it revolves around words

and ideas and thoughts and concepts and

fantasies that a man can evol can evoke.

That is the rake. All right? No man can

resist a siren and no woman can resist a

true rake. The other types are like the

dandy which is a type of man or woman

who has qualities of the opposite sex

oppos the other gender. So, it's a man

with a touch of femininity. It's a woman

with a touch of masculinity. And believe

it or not, that has very, very powerful

sexual and social appeal to people. I

could go into why that is, but that's a

very powerful type. There is the uh

natural, which is somebody who has a

very childlike ability. They're

spontaneous.

They they may be in their 20s, but they

you have the feeling that they're five

years old. They're so real and natural

and spontaneous and kind of helpless and

vulnerable. They go, "Wow, that's

lovable. I want to, you know, I want

that person." There's the coette, which

traditionally is a woman, but can be a

man. Is the one who plays hot and cold.

They They're suddenly so excited about

you, their eyes go, "Wow, there's

there's something going on there." And

then the next minute, they're all cold

and distant. and they've completely

wrapped you around your finger by this

pattern of coldness and hotness.

Uh there are a few others, but I don't

want to exhaust the list. That gives you

an idea.

>> Super interesting. Yeah, thank you so

much for the

>> whole list.

>> No, that was good enough. And yeah, I

think but those are kind of most of

them, right? So, um that was really

>> That's like five of six of of the nine.

Yeah.

>> Very interesting.

And for someone who's listening right

now and they're thinking, you know, this

sounds amazing, but they don't

necessarily feel seductive or they don't

feel like they have any of those

qualities or they don't feel like

they're attracting someone. Is there a

way for someone to cultivate this

magnetic seductive aura?

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> How do they do it?

>> It's very simple.

I mean there are there are many

different ways to get there but there's

one path that is the most powerful of

all and that is to be more interested in

other people. So what makes you

unseductive, what I call anti-seductive

is that you're so self-absorbed. You're

only thinking about yourself. You're

insecure. You're worried about what

people think about you. You're

constantly going, "Am I saying the right

things to this woman in the bar? Is she

bored? Am I? You're so wrapped up in

your own thoughts that you're not paying

attention. The ability to get outside of

yourself. And you can practice this. The

problem nowadays is everything is

virtual.

You're swiping to find somebody. You

need to practice this on people in the

world and not virtually. Okay? And the

practice is this

thinking about them. So, if I were

interested in you, Francesca, right now,

just as a scenario, right, and I was

trying to seduce you, okay, and we were

in a restaurant or a bar,

I'd be focusing on what are who you are,

what your world is like, I would be

asking questions that aren't obvious,

but that show that I'm interested in

your world, how you think, what's going

on with you, what has been your what was

your childhood? Like I get you to talk

about yourself.

People never feel like they're the star

of the show. They never feel like they

get to talk about themselves. You get

the other person to talk because you're

focused on them. You're not focused on

yourself. Right? I'm interested in you.

I'm interested in what makes Francesca

tick. What What were her horrible

experiences with boyfriends in the past

and why? I'm interested. I'm trying to

get inside of your world and think like

you think so I can understand what it is

that you're missing in life. Okay. What

makes people bad at the game is they

can't get inside of other people.

They're so locked in their heads.

They're so in only can only think about

what they need, what they want, what

they think is funny or what they think

is interesting. But you have to think of

what the other person finds interesting.

I have this famous quote that I'm going

to mangle terribly in the art of

seduction where in England in the 19th

century there were these two political

rivals Benjamin Draeli who was a great

prime minister and uh this other man

gold I can't remember what his name was

goldmith goldsmith maybe gold something

or other sorry um and

was the master seducer and this woman

this prince princess or whatever was at

a a a party an evening with them and she

said sitting next to Mr. Goldsmith

whatever his name was I thought he was

the most interesting man in the world

sitting next to Mr. Israeli. I thought I

was the most interesting person in the

world. That is what charm, that is what

seduction is. So, you're not trying to

impress people with how brilliant you

are. You're trying to make them feel

brilliant. You're trying to make them

feel wonderful and great. Not you.

>> Get out of yourself. Get out of your

world. Get out of your own problems and

get inside other people, inside their

minds. Ask questions. And then this is a

very brilliant seduction technique. When

somebody says something that seems kind

of interesting or telling,

the next day or later that evening, you

come back to them and you quote what

they were saying in some context.

What this reveals is that you were

listening to them, that you've retained

something they said that was very

personal, and you've quoted it back to

them. Not in an obvious way, but it

reveals indirectly that you were truly

listening to them. Man, that is powerful

because people don't listen to each

other anymore.

>> Yeah, absolutely. That makes total

sense. And I think a lot of women are

complaining about that. They're going on

dates and they feel like the guy hasn't

asked them any questions or they only

talked about themselves. And you know,

it seems like a simple ask like, "Please

just ask me some questions." But you'd

be surprised how little it actually

happens.

>> Well, that's that's men's that's men's

weakness when it comes to seduction.

They talk too much about themselves.

>> It's a terrible quality.

>> Mhm. Are there any you mentioned some

anti- seductive qualities? Are there

other habits that maybe people are doing

unconsciously that are anti-seductive?

Well, uh, one quality is moralizing and

judging and always judging other people

and judging them for what they said and

judging them for what they look and

judging from the clothes that they wear

and judging them for their friends and

their political opinions, that is

completely unseductive. Being moralizing

and superior,

that that will put anybody off. Okay?

being um so insecure that you're always

worried about what you're going to say

and whether you're pleasing people. We

can read that kind of insecurity on

people. It's very anti-seductive

insecurity.

The lack of generosity.

So,

um if you're a man, uh I mean this is

I'm being very traditional here, so it's

I'm I don't know. It's probably not very

good for the 21st century, but pay pay

the money. Pick up the bill. Don't be

tight. Don't be such a tight wad. Don't

be having always to split the bill. Pay

for things. Give generous gifts, but not

just material things. Be generous with

your attention. Right? So, you're

somebody that's always involved in your

business and your work and you have no

time for the for your partner or the

person you're trying to seduce. Do the

opposite and be generous with the time

that you give them. If the woman for

instance, if it's a man and woman, the

woman knows that you're very busy. Okay?

But if suddenly you take off a complete

day and you say, "Let's just go off and

do our things and let's just be together

for that whole day." That's powerful.

You're being generous with your spirit.

You're being generous with your time.

That is un lack of that is a very

anti-seductive quality. Those are some

of them. Once again, I could go through

all 10, but I'm just gonna leave it at

that for now.

>> Yeah. I think those are so spot on.

Yeah, absolutely. And I can so much

resonate with that. And

>> I mean, the one I left out, but I kind

of mentioned is the talker, the big

talker, the person that's always

bragging and saying, "God, I was so

great and look at all the wonderful

things I've done and all the people that

have been interested in me and all the

things I've accomplished and how many

books I've written and how fantastic and

how many followers I have on Instagram."

Man, that is really anti-seductive.

Yeah, absolutely. And also, you know,

you mentioning generosity. I think it

applies to both men and women. And you

know, even if you, for instance, I

remember going out with this like girl

um just like as friends. And I think it

was like we met at the book club and

then we went for a coffee and at the end

she picked up the bill and like she paid

for it. And I was like, "Wow, that had

never happened to me before with a

woman, you know, like like a friend has

never really paid for my coffee before."

And I really appreciated that, you know,

it really made me like like her more.

And then the other example is I don't

know what it is about the UK, but on

birthdays, people don't bring you gifts.

Whereas where I'm from, which is

Romania, people always bring you

thoughtful, really nice gifts, you know,

and they pay for things and they invest

money and time. And then it was such a

shock to see, you know, I made some

British friends and they came to my

birthday and they came empty-handed and

I had to adjust.

>> When is your birthday, Francesca?

>> It's on the 28th of March.

>> 20th of March.

>> 28th.

>> 20th. 28th.

>> 28th of March.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. I have friends who are that. So,

you're an Aries.

>> Yes, I'm an Aries. How about you? When's

your birthday?

>> Uh, May 14.

>> So, are you a Taurus? Yeah. Oh, very

cool.

>> So, yeah, I think, you know,

>> it really puts you off when people

aren't being generous.

>> On the subject of gifts, gifts are a

very important topic in in the art of

seduction. And what you must understand

is the power of a gift isn't necessarily

in the money that you've spent on it.

It's in the thoughtfulness of it. And

the thoughtfulness is

you're giving them something that

appeals to them as an individual. This

is the other thing about seduction that

you need to understand.

You know, back in the early 2000s, we

had this big thing about the pickup

artist, right?

particularly in Los Angeles, the game,

you know, playing the game. Men knew all

these techniques for how to seduce

women. The problem was that it wasn't

geared towards a woman who as an

individual, her specific needs. It was

just this kind of general strategies

that you applied and women could see

through it. It was very off-putting. So,

you're dealing with people as an

individual. Do you, Francesca, have your

own needs, your own interests, your own

peculiar tastes? If I give you a gift

that shows I understand

what you who you are as an individual, I

give you some music that I know is your

taste or I give you not just flowers,

not just the general cliched stuff, but

something that shows that I was

listening to you, that I understand you,

that the gift is personal. It's not just

that it was expensive, but that there

was some thinking going on in it. That

is the more seductive, powerful way to

give a gift.

Absolutely. And women really appreciate

that. Probably men as well, but I'd say

particularly women.

>> Men too.

>> Very interesting. And the other thing I

wanted to ask you, you know, you

mentioned charm and charisma. Are

charisma and seduction the same thing or

are they different?

Well, um, one of the types of seducers

that I did not mention was the

charismatic.

So, uh, it's definitely a form of

seduction.

And the idea is, um, backing up a little

bit here, seduction and the art of

seduction is seduction is a language.

It's a language that you are learning.

It's not a language of words. It's a

language of actions. It's a language of

your body, of how you present yourself.

It's how you dress, how you look, how

you smell. It's a un It's a preverbal

language that you have to learn. It's

about giving gifts. It's about where you

take people. Okay? So, we humans are

very attuned to people's nonverbal

communication, to their body language.

We pick it up. It's the animal part of

ourselves, right? And it's very powerful

and it's very seductive. Okay? So, a

charismatic

has very very very powerful body

language. And what is that? It's they

believe something so strongly. They're

so certain about something powerful

about their world or what they want that

it radiates to them. It's like there's a

light bulb inside of them that you can't

see, but that animates all their

gestures, their eyes, their mouth, their

expression. They seem alive. They see

it's almost a slight sexual energy, but

it's this energy of self-belief, of

confidence, of wanting people to like

them. Right? This the kind of power that

Marilyn Monroe had before the camera. Um

and it's extremely powerful. You can

read it in people, right? So

it's very important for a political

figure or an actor or somebody in the

public eye to have that quality, right?

Um and it can't be faked. That's the

thing about it. Um, the thing that's

interesting about people with charisma

that I discovered in my research is that

they generally come from troubled, bad

backgrounds. They had bad childhoods.

They were abused. They were neglected.

They were abandoned. Right? And what

happens in that scenario is

they didn't get the love and attention

that they needed from their parents,

from their early caregivers, right? And

so they need to get that love and

attention from the public. That is how

they get their sense of validation and

love not from mommy and daddy but from a

whole country from an entire audience.

You know Winston Churchill had

tremendous charisma. But it only came

about during World War II in in a time

of crisis. But Winston Churchill came

from a very broken was very much

neglected as a child. John F. Kennedy

who had tremendous charisma. His father

was extremely cruel and mean to him.

Marilyn Monroe was basically raised in

an orphanage. She never knew her

parents. These types of people feel a

tremendous need to get that what they

want from the public from a large

public. And we can feel it in them

nonverbally. It comes out in their face

in their manner. And that's these are

elements in charisma. M that's so

interesting how childhood trauma can

make you super charismatic.

What other ways in in what other ways

does your childhood affect you when it

comes to seduction or who you are

attracted to?

>> Well, um whole books could be written

about that. Um and uh you know a lot of

it is um

so when we were very young one or two

years old I mean for boys the mother

figure had a very important impact on

them right so it's different for girls

because your early years are with

somebody of your own gender because

generally we're generalizing but It's

changing now, but women were more

involved in the first two or three years

of a child. It's not changing that much.

It's still pretty much the same.

So, for a man, the impact of his mother

on his

on who he's attracted to is incredibly

powerful. Right? So um

and uh Carl Jung the psychologist you're

probably familiar with him right he had

this concept of the anima and the

animous

and the anima is the image that a man

carries in him of this kind of ideal

woman and it'll be a woman that will

appear in his dreams she's usually a

little bit elusive she's often maybe a

little bit crazy or something Right? But

it's a quality that's embedded in him

from his mother, from that mother image

that is deep, deep, deep deep deep deep

down in his psyche. And so later in

life, he will be interested, attracted

to women who don't consciously conjure

up the image of his mother.

Unconsciously they do in mannerisms

in in in certain vocal patterns in the

sound of their voice in the in the fact

that they have a nurturing quality or

they lack of nurturing quality but

something about that mother figure is

reflected there. Now women on the other

side Jung called it the animos and it's

kind of the male the masculine image in

your head. And so the thing about the

anima for men is that it's the woman

part of their personality that is

attracted to a woman. I know this sounds

strange, but it's actually very

interesting. And I've written about it.

For woman, it's the masculine part of

inside of them, and it's that male voice

that they've internalized from their

father. And so

that father figure, if he's abusive

and negative and not loving, it still

has a deep deep deep impact on their

choices later on in life. It'll be

they don't want that type of man. Okay.

But that they don't want the type of the

father. The father is influencing that

choice or there's a quality in that

particular powerful figure that is that

they were very much attracted to and

they're still striving for later in

life. And then siblings have a very

powerful impact on on on the choices

that we have. Particularly if you're a

man who has sisters or a girl who has

brothers. those sisters and brothers get

inside your early years. You were like a

sponge and you were absorbing people's

energy, right? And had a tremendous

impact on you're not even aware of it.

And so those siblings that you had, I

had a sister who was four years older

than me had a very powerful impact on my

mind and my interest in things. So the

siblings and the parents have a very

very powerful effect on who we choose as

partners later in life.

>> Absolutely. And that makes a lot of

sense. I don't think it's strange at

all. I can absolutely see it around me

and how people make this unconscious

choices. I think that's why it's

important not to take things personally

because a woman might be like, you know,

I gave him everything. I was so

affectionate. And you know, maybe his

mom was not affectionate and that's what

he was attracted to and that's why he

didn't choose you. So,

>> you know, it's it's it's not personal a

lot of the times.

>> Well, that's that's a very good thing

that you bring up because it's important

um to not take anything personally in in

the game of seduction. So uh a lot of

men

when you feel rejected by a woman you

get very angry and upset and kind of

bitter and you carry it with you around

with you. And the whole thing is in

seduction you need to have a light

touch. So if somebody rejected you fine

I'm on to the next one. There are other

women out there. There are other fish in

the ocean. You know I learned something.

I learned that I made a mistake. I

learned that I I'm not attractive to

everyone. Fine. On to the next one.

Don't take things personally and don't

get so heavy. Seduction is a realm of

lightness.

>> Absolutely.

And I think a lot of people need to

really integrate that advice because

rejection is quite hard especially in

today's world. And that was kind of like

my next question is how has seduction

and love, you know, how did they change

in the modern world?

>> Well, I don't know if I'm the best

person qualified to answer that since I

am, you know, I'm in my 60s. Um, so I'd

hate to say that, but it's true. So, I

grew up in a different world and I know

that world very well. I don't know what

it's like to be, you know, in your 20s

right now. I have no real access to

that, but I know that it's much more

difficult. Um, so

in my day and age, you only met a woman.

I mean, or if you're gay, I mean, we've

been very heterosexual here, but it it

applies to to all persuasions.

um to meet somebody you had to go out

physically and do it right and it took a

lot of for a man this took a lot of kind

of guts to like go up and talk to

somebody that you didn't know. It was

almost kind of frightening. Then you got

used to it. Maybe you got more

comfortable and you got better at it and

you had more interactions and it became

easier and easier and easier. Um, but it

was you had to go through this barrier

where to meet somebody were in there

with them face to face in a bar, in a

restaurant, in a club, in any kind of

setting. And you had to overcome that

fear of rejection, of your timidity. And

it was not easy, right? And it developed

a skill. And women had something

similar. They had to deal with men

directly. And that meant sometimes men

were kind of frightening and kind of you

know too much came on too strong. But

you had to deal with that. You had to

understand how to negotiate that kind of

situation where a man is continually

after you.

That's like a social skill that you have

to learn how to handle these

interactions.

And now when it's

you're not having that. Okay. Yes. you

you swiped here and you're going out and

you're meeting that person, right? But

there's already some interest there

involved. You already you didn't have to

go up and make that first bold kind of

step or deal with that person coming

after you in a bar or whatever. And so

something social is missing. A skill is

missing in in your in your um you know

in your set your skill set, right? And

so it's a problem. And um also the other

thing I would say is uh

to fall in love with somebody

uh requires opening yourself up and

being vulnerable and the possibility of

being rejected, the possibility of pain,

of being of of of a breakup, right? It

can be very debilitating these kinds of

experiences and we've all been through

them.

But people are more afraid now than ever

of that of being vulnerable of being

open to another person of experiencing

that kind of pain. And it makes people

afraid of relationships.

Now, it's not all bad. Some things have

gotten better. Some things about the

relationships between men and women have

gotten better. Men have had to become

probably more sensitive and aware and

it's not a completely a man's world

anymore. Some things have gotten better.

Also, if you're not straight, you know,

things have gotten a lot better.

But in some ways, it's not it's more

difficult for young people, and I can

understand that because of

the the harshness of the world that

they're growing up in makes you much

less open to the pain and the

vulnerability of a relationship. and the

swiping makes it so much harder

to understand the social element in

dealing with in a seduction. So

>> for someone who's not in their 20ies,

that was so spot on and I think you

absolutely are the person to talk about

this. That was that really resonated and

I think it resonates with a lot of

people what you mentioned about you know

the fear of rejection which became way

way bigger than it used to be because

dating apps basically removed you know

any kind of rejection and then you know

what you mentioned about vulnerability

and how it's required and people

nowadays they they don't have that

openness anymore. Super fascinating.

>> Um Yeah.

>> You know, something I hear all the time

when it comes to dating advice is just

be yourself. Be authentic. What do you

think about that?

>> Well, um you know, it has some truth to

it. I mean, as I mentioned before, um,

with the, uh, the game, the pickup

artist game, that there's nothing uh,

less seductive

than you've read a book, you've read

Robert Green's Art of Seduction, and

you're applying these tactics to

somebody, right? You're not being real,

you're not being authentic, you're not

being okay, so it's that's not

seductive. On the other hand,

if you're just who you are,

then then that's not going to work

either. So, if I want to date you and I

just wear the kind of clothes that I

wear in the house, like shorts and a

t-shirt, and then I just take you to the

pub where I, you know, have my usual

food and beer, that's not seductive, but

that's being who I am. That's what I

normally would like. You know, that's

that's me. No, you dress nicely.

You know, you put some effort into it.

All right, that's not how you normally

would necessarily be. You take them to a

place that you think is going to

interest them. It isn't normally what

you would do in your day-to-day life.

You can't be completely yourself because

there's no mystery involved. There's no

interest. There's no spark going on. You

have to create a little bit of mystery.

The person can't know exactly who you

are. If you just tell them everything

about yourself and you just give them

everything you have on social media,

they know everything about you. There's

there's no need to be fascinated by it.

The art of seduction, I can tell you

very simply, is

when I leave you, not after the podcast,

but after, you know, a date of some

sort, and you're thinking about me, I

have seduced you. Okay? To the degree

that you're thinking about me and that I

got inside of your head, I have seduced

you. Okay? Okay. That skill, that

ability to do that isn't necessarily

authentic. It's not necessarily who I

am. It's I I understand. So it's it's

it's like a dance. People in the world

today are too black and white. They're

too got to be authentic or I've got to

learn how to play use these tactics.

It's both. You're being natural. You

know that you're a rake. You know that

you're a cokehead and you're bringing

that out. But you also understand the

psychology of other people and how you

have to play to people's individuality

and what will get under their skin and

what will make them think about you the

next day. Right? So if you're a man who

just loves to talk about himself and

brag about all of your great

achievements, you're being natural,

you're being authentic, but you're also

being a real turnoff. You're being a

real anti-seducer.

So, learn some skills. Learn to shut up,

for instance, and don't be so authentic

and learn how to control yourself a

little bit.

>> Yeah, absolutely. You know, I always

thought about this, you know, just be

yourself. It's like, but what if being

yourself, you know, isn't enough to get

someone? Sometimes it's about learning

some skills or unlearning some things

like you mentioned and you know overall

bettering yourself as a person as well

because

>> I guess some people are naturally born

or not necessarily born but they grew up

in an environment where their parents

taught them how to listen for instance

or you know they learn some skills but

what if you didn't you know and then you

lack the skills and you have all these

anti seductive qualities like you only

talk about yourself then it's actually a

good idea to not be yourself and to

learn some skills and maybe not do some

things. So yeah super super interesting

take on it because it's quite

controversial as well to say no don't be

yourself don't be authentic.

So,

>> right,

>> you know, when it comes to people not

being authentic and wearing masks,

how can you actually,

you know, see through people's masks?

Are there ways to kind of see through,

you know, these masks and read people?

>> Well, of yes. Um it it depends on uh the

situation but

um so

you know the um people who are giving

you individualized attention

and seem to be interested in you, they

have to have a quality

that is social, that's pro-social,

right? Um, of course that can be faked.

And there are psychopaths in this world,

sociopaths, whatever you want to call

them, who are good at listening only to

gather information to manipulate with

you and hurt you with, but you can

usually pick that up in their body

language. Right? I tell people

that with narcissists, I've said this

before, there's a kind of distance in

their eyes.

They're listening to you. They're

talking to you, but there's a deadness

there. It's not connecting. And you

know, I'm saying something kind of

strange here. I mean, eyes are what they

are. You know, eyes are just eyes. But

you can feel through the eyes

something inside a person's soul. I'm

sorry to say that. I'm sorry to use a

word like soul, but you can. You can see

in their eyes whether they have general

interest in other people or they're only

inside their own mind all the time. You

can see that there's something bitter

about this. Envy is something you can

read in people's eyes. I wrote about

that in the laws of human nature.

There's this kind of fake look and they

seem to be interested in you, but the

eyes there's something going on where

they're revealing their envy. And in the

ancient world, they call it the evil

eye. The evil eye was the eye of envy.

You can sense that in people's eyes.

They reveal so much. I had a chapter in

the laws of human nature that I think is

important and it was about non-verbal

communication.

And this is all about non-verbal

communication, but it's also about

people's patterns of behavior. So, if

there is a woman, and I'm just saying

woman because it could be a man, who's

has all this drama in her life, you

know, and she's always been the victim.

There's always these terrible men that

they've been involved with. They did

this, that, the other. And it's also

women. They always bitter women who

jealous and who've hurt her. and she's

had so much drama in her life. There's a

pattern there. There's a pattern of what

I called in the in 48 laws of power

infection,

right?

They are actually the ones who bring on

all the bad things in their life because

they love drama. They love having all

this emotional around them.

Okay? So their actions can also the

people's past can reveal that you're

dealing with an infecting type. They're

too dramatic. Okay. But often times it's

the body that reveals it. And you can

see

the way people the relaxed quality in

their body language in in a seduction

setting

when people mirror each other. So if I

move my arm this way, then the woman

does that a few minutes later

unconsciously she's falling under my

spell kind of a because my relaxed

behavior is inducing a similar relaxed

reaction in her. So to read people's

masks, you have to shut off all your

intellectual crap, all your verbalizing,

all your thinking and be attentive to

the body. the body will tell you because

I could say anything with my words. I

could say, "You're so beautiful. I'm in

love with you. You're just wonderful."

And I'm lying. But I can't lie with my

eyes. I can't lie with my mouth. I can't

lie with my body language. It tells the

truth. I can say I love you, but my eyes

are just kind of dead and it's just it's

just a form. It's just words.

>> Very interesting. So following these

micro expressions to sort of get get a

read on people. Okay. So this is my last

question. What is the best advice that

you would have for someone in their 20s

versus someone in their 30s?

>> In your 20s,

have fun. Don't get be so heavy. Don't

be so mono. I've got to have I got to

make money. I've got to have a family.

I've got to get married. I got to do

this, that, and the other.

Have some explore.

Try things out. Date a few people. Try

different jobs. Don't be in such a

hurry. Because to be honest with you,

your 20s are your best, most exciting

period of life. They were for me. And

they go by quickly and they're gone. And

then you're already in your 30s, your

40s, your middle age goes, it's gone.

It's very quick. It's very short.

I don't mean to just have fun because I

want you to be serious. I want you to

learn things. I want you to develop

skills. I want you to think a little bit

about your future. Definitely. So, it's

a little bit 50/50. Maybe it's 6040.

But don't close yourself off to having

an adventure, to exploring, to tr to

dating different people, to trying

different jobs, to traveling a little

bit, and to just soak up experience that

you're going to use later in life.

That's my advice to people in their 20s.

At the same time, you want to be serious

and build real skills that now when you

turn 30 and life starts to slow down and

you have to become more serious. Not

necessarily, but you usually do, you're

ready. You had skills, you had

experiences, you had adventures, you

know about the world, and now you're

ready to kick ass. You're ready to do

something important. In your 30s, it's

more like it's a turning point in your

life. So when you turn 30, it's like a

switches going on. It's not It's sort of

silly because it's just a word. I mean,

days and years don't actually exist.

They're just words. So, we just say the

word 30, but it often happens. that

happened when I turned 30 that you start

thinking a little more seriously about

where you're going, about who you are,

about where your life is. Okay? And

that's where that element of the life's

task that I mentioned earlier is so

important.

You have a solid sense of who you are,

of what you want in your life. And

now's the time to get it because when

you're 30, 31, 32, that's your most

creative part. That's when you're your

most powerful. For me, it was when I was

38, 39. So, it's not the same for

everybody, but it's the time to get a

little more serious with your life and

to to reassess and to understand. I had

these adventures. I developed these

skills. And now I'm gonna bring it all

together and I'm going to be a great

podcaster. I'm gonna be a I'm gonna

write books. I'm gonna win elections.

I'm going to change the world. I'm going

to organize this kind of social thing

going on. That's that's would be my

advice to people in their 20s and 30s.

>> I love that. I mean, I've heard your

advice for people in their 20s before,

but never in their 30s. And it's great.

Thank you so much, Robert. That was

incredible. This whole conversation was

so valuable and just so amazing. I think

people are going to find it very

inspiring and get a lot of insight and

knowledge from it. So, thank you again

for taking the time. Huge fan and I

encourage

>> I encourage everyone to read your books

as well.

>> It was great. Great questions. You're

very good at this. So I I I had a good

time