Lost Tools of Writing Support Webinar: Preparing for the Lost Tools of Writing, Level One

hi everybody thank you for being here

it's nice to have live people to talk to

um while these things are being recorded

hi

Michelle hi to the rest of you that I

don't

know and

welcome to this

webinar we are going to talk about today

preparing for the Lost tools of writing

level

one so we're going to be talking about

prerequisites excuse

me and so first I would like to us just

to think together for a few

minutes

and um we I'm not going to write

anything on the board yet but just to to

think about

um an

analogy that that we can use and the so

the analogy is a tree

and we're going to think

about

learning learning

studying

deciding um so so let's think about

first um what are and I'm I'm not going

to write this on the board yet but just

let's think about what

are the leaves on the tree so if we if

we look at the leaves as the almost the

fruit of what we might stud study then

what are all the things that could be

leaves what are all the things and let

let's just think about this for a few

minutes and then when we get to the next

couple steps I'll start writing notes on

the board but first let's just think you

might write on a piece of paper if you

want to but um what are some of the

things that might that the leaves might

be in this

analogy the things we could learn the

things we could study the things we

could think

about the

leaves when we're almost getting to the

fruit

but not

quite

so all right we're gonna switch pictures

here I am not the most

technologically equipped person try to

manage as well as we can go ahead

Michelle

so I'm thinking about the leaves as the

thing

that allows the tree to take in nutrient

from the Sun so I'm kind of trying to

thank you for that because I'm not about

I'm not thinking is

that well it wasn't now that you

mentioned it that's what leaves do right

photosynthesis thing I got into

photosynthesis yet I'm thinking of a

stick figure

that these this is a leaf these are the

leaf they go to branches and then

there's a big stick in the middle and

that's the trunk okay

okay thanks for asking the question

that's clarifying that's very helpful

and I need all the help I get because

you know some people talk about mimic

teaching and and that the the mode of of

of of teaching and some people talk

about uh Socratic teaching and that form

well I have a third form of teaching and

that's to cause confusion

and then you ask a lot of questions and

then you know you you learn because

you're asking your own questions because

I'm throwing out things that don't make

sense and so please

ask so that's yeah let's go back to my

tree is just a stick a big thick stick

with some more sticks and then the

leaves on the ends and so I guess what

I'm thinking is that well maybe maybe we

have

uh literature out there or um linear

algebra

or um yeah British maybe British

literature linear algebra underwater

basket weaving I don't know any of those

things could be could be out there on

the ends so the the next qu the so what

we want to think about next then is what

what are the branches like what what are

the things that support that what would

so I'm kind of working our way backwards

like what what might be the goals of our

learning and

and then how how are we going to get

there so maybe I should have said if you

see a

leaf how are we going to get to it so so

then what would be the

branches and actually this part I

haven't thought about very much the

branches that would be connected to the

leaves because what I really want to to

get to is that we're talking about prere

prerequisites then we want to get to

what is the trunk of the tree what is it

that makes possible all of the the

things that supports like what before we

can get to year algebra before we can

get to British literature before we can

get to things like

that what is it that that we need to

build in our students in order for them

to be able to get there or in

ourselves so if I wanted to if I wanted

to study British literature maybe if

that's my le then I need a branch that's

about literature in general possibly I'm

um I didn't write any examples so I'm

thinking of this as we go but or if I

want to study linear algebra then the

branches might be just algebra and then

the trunk for that would be addition and

subtraction and multiplication probably

long division but then you know we're

getting lower and lower to the bottom of

the trunk then we have just skills of

arithmetic so that's what I'm thinking

of if we if there are all the things in

the world to

study or think about how does that poem

go there and the world has so many

wonderful things we should all be as

happy as as kings so if those are all

the things out there that we could study

then what are the branches that support

that and then what is the trunk of the

tree of learning so that's that's the

question is what what is the trunk of

the tree of learning what do we

need in order to reach the branch so

that we can get out to the leaves that

are I mean the things that I said are

more

specialized you know British literature

or linear

algebra or

botney maybe

or um the the Symphonies of Bach or

things like that what what are we going

to have to do if all of those things are

leaves and we have everything from a

symphony to a or everything from box

Symphonies to to linear algebra

and and um British literature or South

African literature then then what does

it take to get there and so we see that

if we're if we want to get to the any

the linear algebra Branch we're going to

have some more numerical arts in the

branches and and and the trunk that we

need to get to if we want to get to

South African literature then we need to

get it's going to be a literature branch

and if we want to get to the Box uh box

Symphonies we need to get to the or

Beethoven Symphonies we need to get to I

was thinking of Beethoven I said Bo we

need to get

to some the branch of Symphonies or

difference between Symphonies and

sonatas or musical forms things like

that so what is the prerequisite for all

of those things if we want to study

musical

forms and we want to study literature

and we want to

study

linear

algebra what's the trunk what are what

are the first things that we need to

have that support all of those other

things

and I would like to

propose that the trunk of all of those

kinds of

learning are the skills that are

included in level one of the Lost tools

of

writing so we call it loss tools of

writing but really it has other

nicknames sometimes we call it the Lost

tools of thinking Michelle you're

smiling what else do we call

it that was just the one I was thinking

of the Lost tools of thinking yeah well

sometimes we call the Lost tools of

reading because if you're asking

questions and you're you're reading a

book and you're asking these questions

it's helping you to read better so

sometimes we call the Lost tools of

reading so all of these um verbal skills

are included in the Lost tools of

writing and um

actually before we go any further I

would like to stop for a second and and

let you and um ask you

to introduce yourselves briefly because

I recognize two faces um T you were here

for a second Michelle I see you and the

other two of you I don't know so could

you just tell me really quickly what's

your experience with lost tools Michelle

I could answer for you but I'll let you

talk I'll let you speak for

yourself I don't know

all um so I am a graduate of the Cy

apprenticeship and have taught um lost

tools of writing for five or six years

now so that's my that's my

experience you must like it yes I do I

love

it what what do just I'm sorry I can't

help running down this Rabbit Trail a

little bit what do you love about it it

just that that's an interesting question

to me always but what what is it about

lost tools that you like so much what do

I love about it I

love that it is how practical it is to

just everyday

life yes

yeah yeah somebody told me once your

house is so organized and I thought lost

tools yep a lot of sorting you know and

the more you define the more you compare

then the more you know this goes with

this and that goes with that and this

doesn't this thing is not the

others yeah so everyday

life yeah it really is and and that

that's exactly my point here that it

it's the foundation for for everything

it's for organizing closets for yeah for

um yeah if that's one of if that's a

leaf on the tree then lost tools is the

trunk um what about um Lisa how are you

I do know

you hello yes um okay what question am I

answering okay my experience with lost

tools yes um I have taught lost Tools in

inperson classes a couple times around

to high schoolers and now I am mainly

teaching loss tools to middle schoolers

online so that's a whole different world

isn't it it really is it really

is yeah I taught it in person first to

high schoolers and then I thought online

yeah then I had middle schoolers next

and with mix with high schoolers and I

thought this is too young you got so

much to do you know just to go to the

class you can't just walk through the

door and be there so it's harder

yeah what is it you like so much about

lost tools Lisa I'm GNA start I yeah I

appreciate the um how it breaks writing

down into very

manageable logical steps and it makes it

not so ambiguous and open-ended so it

really kind of demystifies how to tackle

a writing assignment I also love how the

tools even though lost tools uh focuses

on the persu of essay I really

appreciate how those those tools can be

applied to any kind of writing

assignment or really anything like you

said anything in life for sure I was

talking with my husband my husband is

pursuing a um he's his dream is to

produce a a documentary and so he has

all this information and so I literally

I was like you've got to you got to do

an Annie chart you know you've got you

have to start with invention and then

you've got to move to Arrangement and

organize your

ideas yes gotta sort those out that's

really cool yeah so it applies to the

kind of of writing he's doing for it'll

help him with what he how to write a

documentary or organize it or yeah

that's I hope I hope so I'm sure it will

I'm sure it will okay thanks Lisa um

Tana do you w to pitch

in oops I can't hear you I saw you said

sure but sound didn't work yeah okay hit

both buttons okay um I have finished the

apprenticeship and I teach I taught

online but I've taught it in person to

high school students so and even when I

taught online I chose hard books so that

I would get high school students because

I think the older the better I mean the

kids can do it but they're they just you

know they they struggle and the older

kids just snap on to it right away that

said you know when I work with younger

kids you know like Middle School grade

seven through nine you know I find

myself you teaching them um principles

of ltw as I'm teaching you know IW or

whatever else I mean that you know so

the concepts you know go everywhere um

but yeah that's so I'm currently

teaching levels one two and three

so good yeah it's Universal like you

just said they just yeah the skills go

everywhere um was would you say that's

what you like most about it or is there

something else you want you would add to

that I mean it's just yeah the thinking

skills it teaches you how to think and

just yeah it's it's very Universal yeah

and it's and it's geared for all types

of students not just students that are

very um AC mic but you know even the kid

digging ditches for the construction

crew needs to be able to articulate why

he thinks it should be done this way

right or just to decide whether I you

know this is the kind of weather we have

and and ask whether I should go to work

today or this is how I feel I wonder

whether I should be you know do I should

I take the day off or yeah it's just

everybody has to think about these

things or or whether he should apologize

to his wife M anything all those things

that's

good yeah it made me think of something

else too that I forgot

so on we go okay and Shaya is that right

did I say your name right yeah that's

right and um I don't know if I should be

in this webinar I am a homeschool parent

and I have no experience with lost tools

of writing and is this for people who

are

teaching um it's for people who have uh

four year olds and fivey olds and you

want to think about what to do with them

at home oh I have a a fifth grader and a

seventh grader right now and I was

considering teaching lost tools of

writing to my eighth grader in the fall

yeah you should be here um so you just

heard a little bit about why you should

stay and listen because of all the the

wonderful things lost tools does and

because it is the trunk of everything

we're going to learn and everything we

need to think about so so yeah and and I

I'm sorry got a little

um yeah we we we're just talking about

we're I got a little busy with

introductions

oh that's fine and I I guess I can give

a little bit of our writing background

is like I I've gone in different

directions and I'm wondering if lost

tools of writing is our next step or not

we started with writing and rhetoric for

several years and um then I and I really

hated the the five paragraph essay

structure and then I jumped onto that

this year just to kind of give my kids

that experience of that tool and now I'm

wondering if for my eighth grader I

should jump over to help her process of

thinking through arguments better I

notice that that's a weak point okay I

say

yes and you you may have done a lot of

this preparation already maybe not with

your younger ones I don't know but um

we'll we'll talk some more about that

and let me just say too before we go on

that on Thursday afternoon at 3 p p.m

eastern time which is the same time as

today so if you're in California it's

noon we whatever we just started today

the same time there's a webinar on

Thursday and there a free Q&A session

for people to come in and just ask

questions so if this helps you see

something about preparing and then makes

you think more about lost tools and then

you have more questions and that's a

good place to come to we also have a

couple of forums where you can just ask

questions anytime oh thank you you I I'm

also curious about I heard that

sometimes it can feel like a step

backwards before you move forwards I'd

also love to see writing samples of kids

but is that something I could get yes if

you'll email me later I can send you any

of that stuff let me just put this here

it's

Camille Cersei institute.org okay thank

you so much yeah you're welcome here

I'll put that up

here and oh you said something I wanted

to respond to now I can't now I forgot

what I was

thinking oh it feels like you're going

backwards yeah the analogy that we use

for that is that um well IW well

whatever you use you know the students

might be writing some stuff but then you

get to Lost tools it's not a five the

first essay is not a five paragraph

essay it's a five sentence essay but

that core is going to be in your

doctoral thesis and so you need to get

it right and become get it internalized

and and so that we start there and then

add to it it's like so the analogy we

use is that um you know when you when

you see construction speaking of we're

talking about construction when you see

somebody scrape the ground and and bring

in building materials you know they're

going to build like a one-story house or

Strip Center or something and then when

they when you see construction start and

they dig a giant hole that goes down two

or three stories in into the ground it

looks like they're going backwards but

that means they're going to build

something that's 10 stories or or more I

don't know exactly but it means they're

building a high-rise and so it needs a

deeper foundation so that's what lost

tools

provides and it is the trunk of the the

tree of learning it provides the

foundational verbal skills for linear

algebra for South African literature for

Beethoven Symphonies whatever we're

going to read or study later on and

that's one of the the great things about

classical education is that it's all

about giving our students skills and

cultiv ating their

Humanity so

that they can decide what kind of job

training they want when they're older

and then they can make wise decisions

and and not just train them from the

beginning just to do some some job but

but the skills that are in Lost tools

the Lost tools of thinking lost tools of

reading lost tools of writing all these

all these thinking skills that are in

this program are foundational for

everything so lost tools is the trunk of

the tree of learning

and if your students are going to keep

learning lost tools is a good place to

start it's a good thing to have for a

foundation so I'd highly recommend it

for eth grade and I know what I started

to say earlier I was in a meeting last

week about lost tools and we were

talking about one particular lesson and

I was talking with Andrew Kern and

somebody else and and I said well you

know that it depends on who our audience

is just like everything we write so I

said you know do we you know if if we're

teaching this to to 12 to 12 year olds T

I think you made me think about this if

we're teaching this to 12 year olds then

we need to make sure we expose the

internal logic of the lesson really well

we need to give lots of examples we need

to go slowly and then but if you start

with a 15-year-old you won't have to be

that careful or move that that slowly

because the older we are the more

quickly we learn these skills I mean I

was 40 you know and i' had never been

taught this way and and so it's I won't

say it was fast but it was faster than a

12-year-old I

hope so

um but it's it's appropriate for for

every age because it's the these are the

foundational thinking skills for

everything we'll study think do decide

from then on so when we think of verbal

skills so so yeah we're going to talk

today um about more of what happens

before level one or what what students

um how to be prepared for level one

and so that's why I was saying you know

if you have a four-year-old or a

5-year-old this is going to help you

today but even with older students you

might want to do some of these things

but I'd like to say too just from the

beginning if you have like I I remember

having an eighth grader that I wanted to

start in Lost tools of writing level one

and we had not carefully done all of

these steps but she did great anyway she

had written a lot of thank you notes and

she was holding her pencil correctly a

pen by that age so she did fine so if

you haven't done all of these things it

doesn't mean that your child's not ready

but if you want to intentionally prepare

them from age three or four then this is

the kind of things I mean we had done a

lot of this I guess but and you may be

already doing a lot of it there may be

one or I think there's a a couple of key

things here that that we talked about a

week or two ago that um I think will be

helpful um but but a lot of most of this

will probably be familiar to

you to all of you so if we talk if we

think let's first think about reading

the verbal skills of reading and what a

student needs to do to be able to

read to be able to read well enough to

be prepared for lost tools so first

thing is listening and there are books

written just about

listening

um but but the the first thing we do is

read aloud to our children and that's

one of the most important things that we

can do

and

it it increases their comprehension it

increases their vocabulary I mean it

does all kinds of it increases their

moral imagination I mean I I can list

all these technical things but also it's

just a thing of beauty and it's a

relationship that we that in if is a our

relationship with our children includes

this it it enriches everything we do so

reading aloud to our children is

important and that is they are reading

along with us in their minds um they the

next thing you want to see is well can

they sit and listen you know you can

tell in a room full of

six-year-olds um if some which ones have

been read to and which ones have not

because they have a longer attention

span if they have been so the next thing

we want to see is if they can follow a

story so you my eighth grader could do

this even though I didn't put it on a

list and do it on purpose with her every

day but can they follow a story like

you'll

find three year olds probably and older

who will listen to the story and follow

along and be with you and they

understand what's happening they

understand this is the person in the

story and what he's doing and and then

you can see if that if they're really

thinking mentally engaged because

they'll light up when something happens

when something good happens to a

character or when they understand

something or they see something they

have an Insight you can see that they

they light up and if they can tell the

story back to you then um

that also shows you that you that

they're understanding this what happened

that they can find a character and

follow the actions or follow this

character through the

story so if they um if they can listen

to you if they can follow the story if

they light up when something happens or

they say oh no no don't do it don't do

it then you know that they understand

the story and this is how we we're

assessing them if they can do these

things then they're ready to move on so

we're always in the classroom at home

we're always informally assessing our

children every time they

speak or tell us back a story we're

we're we're thinking about how well they

did it or whether they can do it or what

is it that they

missed or what they might need or what

they understand so so we're assessing

them as they go and then if we talk to

them about the story if we ask them

should this person have done this thing

and then they can start to think about

it and you this may not be age three but

maybe it would be but certainly four

five6 and you can talk to them about it

and say well maybe he could have done

this or maybe he should have done that

and they can understand the story better

and talk with you about it like that

then that's another thing that you can

assess that Readiness

in and then when they can do all of

these

things

um they are

reading they're doing dependent reading

you are looking at the page

and decoding it for them and saying the

words making the sounds and saying the

words and giving um inflection that

helps give meaning to the sentences and

to the actions to the characters but

that but but so they're dependent on you

for that but they are in a sense in

their minds they are reading they are

taking in the story they're

understanding it they're thinking about

it so this is dependent

reading and that's one step in getting

them to be reading independently so our

goal is to move them from dependent

reading to independent

reading and when when the dependent

reading is internalized when they are

talking to you about the story and they

can um tell you tell it back to you then

then they're reading dep

dependently and you are cultivating

literary skills in L in Reading when

they're doing that you're cultivating

their literary

skills and I

so this is just a brief overview I I

looked up something today and found a

website called empowered

parents and and this is a young gal I

think she's a mom she has a bachelor's

in something of Early Childhood from

University of South Africa which is why

those sto that was on my mind earlier

but it's called imper impowered parent

and she lists about 5050 Zer things you

can do with your preschoolers

to to cultivate the some of the some of

these things so if you want I I can't

say it's I don't I can't guarantee it I

haven't even read the whole page that

she posted but it had a lot of

interesting things there and it you know

it says sing the alphabet song and make

letters out of D and cookie dough and

things like that so it's probably a lot

of it you're reading you've I mean

you're doing already but if you just

want some more things to put on a

checklist she's got a bunch and they

from what I saw it looked good that's

just from my cursory glance at it

today she has no affiliation with Cersei

I just thought you know we're already

doing these things and a couple others

she had some good ideas and there were

50 so that's a

lot so so at this at this

stage even these really little people

are reading dependently they're helping

you and you're cult I mean you're

helping them and you're cultivating

literary literacy skills in them but now

they need mechanical skills to read

physically that's what their minds are

doing now they need uh physically do

they you and I'm sure this happens in

your houses but there are some places

where you give a child a book he won't

even know how to open it or he won't

open it doesn't even know it does open

so if your child will sit down open a

book look at the pictures turn the pages

I mean I think we we probably have seen

that but that's and all of our children

at home but those are some of the first

mechanical skills of phys physically

reading and that's what we mean by

mechanical skills what what physically

does it take to read a

book to acquire these other verbal

skills and at some point when they're AC

acquiring those physical skills open the

book look at the pictures turn the pages

they're also learning at the same time

they're at at some point they're

learning decoding they're learning a

makes the sound of a

and t t makes a sound of T C makes the

sound of c and if you put C and A and T

together then it says cat so that's what

we mean by decoding so some children are

decoding they're decoding at a different

level from the level that they're

reading because what's happening in

their

minds the the the literacy level is not

the same as their mechanical level or

decoding level their mechanical skills

are not there yet even though they're

acquiring these literacy

skills but then um we want to take them

from decoding to fluency in reading and

that's when they're reading

independently without us but when we

continue to read aloud to them and we

express the story and the sentences and

and those things then they they're um

they're still acquiring fluency along

the way

and

um reading is a mental activity I think

I said that and the the the dependent

reading that they're doing is they're

reading at a a very high level

and but the the fluency is helped by our

continuing to read aloud to them so what

I'm I was trying to remember to say is

that we want to do this over and over

and over year after year this is not

just you know I'll do this from Fall to

Spring and then we'll be finished but

the fluency is cultivated for a long

time in the literacy and mechanical

skills but you want some of these things

to be internalized before you move to

the next so that they don't have to

think about which way to turn the book

to open it they don't have to know turn

the pages right to left we read from

left to

right and that helps them when they

learn decoding and then they're

continuing to gain fluency for a long

time because reading means decoding um

but reading also means can you read a

sentence and see what it means or can

you read what happens to a character and

understand the forces behind it or the

emotions behind it and things like that

so that's eventually the reading that

we're aiming

for but right now we're talking about

how to get them to the 12year old level

so we're not going to talk too much

about that right this minute but but

that is that's our

goal so I'm gonna go ahead and talk

about writing now I don't know well does

anybody want to talk about reading

anymore or have any questions or about

this input this is the verb these are

verbal skills input that that we're

putting into the children before they

start to read for

themselves I guess that's some output

when they sound out the letters and say

the sentences that they see on the

page

okay and then so the other the other

part of the verbal skills we have the

input from reading and then we're going

to we're asking eventually for output in

writing that we want them to have their

ideas and to give to give them to us in

writing so we keep reading that's the

input they're getting um we want them to

to be thinking writing again I if you're

familiar with laws tools you'll know

it's it's not

something that just it's not about the

paper because writing happens in our

minds also and if writing people talk

about writing and we say that writing is

hard because often because we can't

think of what to

say and but if we can think of something

we can write it down because we know how

to hold a pencil so so it's easy to

write a grocery list that's that's not

hard writing but if I wanted to write a

story or a curriculum resource then that

or a persuasive address then that takes

a lot of thinking and so the skills that

we need to learn the skills of writing

that we need to learn

are lots and lots of them are thinking

skills and that's why in Lost tools

you'll find material logic and the Canon

of invention you'll find formal logic

when you're in the Canon of arrangement

there's more to it than that but that

those are in there I mean they're in

more places than that but

those there's more to Arrangement than

formal logic but formal logic is in the

arrangement lessons some of them more

than

others so all right so in writing again

they have reading input they're thinking

and they're

speaking and then and they tell us their

ideas and even if you're in a and their

minds are full they're overflowing

through we can tell this with

three-year-olds four year olds five-year

olds they have so much to say in their

thinking and and they're

thinking they're thinking like children

but but they think a lot and they have

imaginations and and there's more going

on in the mind than they can put on a

piece of

paper so here's the

bridge this is what we can do to help

get our students

from from that kind of thinking to to

writing and often I I've heard parents

say or teachers say that I you know I

know he doesn't know how to he has ideas

but he can't get them onto the paper

can't go from mine to paper so here's

how we help them do that we're the

bridge so they speak they tell us their

ideas and then we write them so a

three-year-old I'm thinking I need to do

this with my grandson when he colors a

picture I need to say tell me what the

picture is and if he says it's a

dinosaur with a leaf in it mouth then I

write at the bottom of the page it's a

dinosaur with a leaf in its

mouth and then he looks at it and then

he sees his words on

paper and then we talked about doing

this in a Kindergarten class you can say

you can ask whether Curious George

should have taken the yellow hat from

the man and if you're asking whether he

should have taken a hat they can they'll

give you lots and lots of words and

ideas and if you write them on the board

then they can see their words written

they can see the their ideas embodied

when you write them when the when the

adult writes them and so and then we do

this over and over and over they dictate

we write and they see

it they dictate we right they see it we

can even do this when when students are

older sometimes in fact parent emailed

me last week and said I have a

12-year-old and she's dyslexic I think

and she's we've hit sa5 in level one and

we are this is it as far as we go she

said we're gonna keep doing it but I

need to know how and and so I mean this

is what I did with my I had a

nine-year-old once like this that got

jumped and I he told me what he thought

and I wrote it down and we turned it in

so I told the mom you can she can tell

you her ideas you write them down and

turn it in so it's all her ideas it's

just not her

mechanics so we can be the bridge for

them in that way so that mechanically

their writing gets done but they're

doing the

thinking and I think Andrew put it this

way he said the compassionate teacher

has to understand that the mind is so

much more full than the page the paper

the piece of paper the

page so this is how we're we're

cultivating literacy skills writing and

we do this over and over again probably

for a couple of years with students

maybe kindergarten first grade would

probably be the most the times we would

do it the most but we can do it like I

said with a three-year-old we can do it

still with a nine a nine-year-old or a

12-y old if they need it but they need

that bridge they need to speak and then

see

it see it

written and then for them to have the

mechanical skills for physical writing

the first thing they need to do and some

of this is is happening again

simultaneously with while you're reading

to them and they're talking to you and

you're discussing

stories excuse me during those same

years they're learning to hold a pencil

correctly I think most children don't

anymore but um I'm old but they need to

hold a pencil correctly it's good for

them it's good for their handwriting um

they need to orient a piece of paper

correctly if you're in a class with high

schoolers you've probably seen one put

the piece of paper on the table up down

and start to write on it or start with

the page backwards every time so there's

no left

margin so this is another thing that

students are always taught how to

do they and then they need to form

letters correctly and that's we usually

start there I think and we don't always

look at those habits of that that are

even before that to hold the pencil

correctly to orient the paper and then

to form the letters correctly and then

I'll just say I'll just say that c

um courage cursive might give them

courage it does a lot of things it helps

their thinking uh because it's a little

bit slower it gives them time to think

it's it's artistic it's a thing of

beauty that they can create it helps to

overcome just some some dyslexic

Tendencies because of the way the a b is

formed and a d very different from what

we see

typed and handwriting is um it's it's a

different

mental activity from typing so

handwriting does have a lot of

benefits because I know some people

would say oh just skip this they don't

need to write physically because we have

we have computers now but I would urge

you to cultivate um these skills too

these physical writing skills and when

these are internalized then we can move

on and so that bridge where they dictate

we write and they read it now they can

dictate to us we write what they say and

then they can copy the writing when

they're no longer thinking of how to

hold a pencil they've internalized all

those other things they know how to form

the letters they're they're thinking and

and now they can see their sentences and

they can handwrite them mechanically

without a problem without speed bumps

along the way so that's the second stage

second part of that bridge they dictate

we write and then they

write so there's they're still doing

copy work

though and then we want to do that for a

couple years too and then the next step

is dictation where we say that the

sentences and they write

them and it could be from a classroom

conversation with their peers about a

story and they're writing what their

peers say and clarifying their ideas

that way or you could read from a book

and then they write the sentences and

that's helping them to learn and then

you can check for their punctuation

spelling and that kind of thing if they

can hear something and write

it and then the next thing that helps

them prepare for a level one of lost

tools is is if they've used some kind of

chart or table some kind of form for

their

thinking um sometimes like the one that

Springs to mind is the circumstance

chart that's in the level one of lost

tools and when we're thinking about you

know if we're asking whether Curious

George should have taken the Yellow Hat

then we're asking what what else is

going on around this person and and

there's one chart where we draw circles

and say and you know a little further

away there's this person he's doing this

thing and then even farther away there's

that person he's doing that thing and or

or we can use boxes to write it in I

like the boxes so these forms that hold

our thoughts are sometimes unfamiliar to

students and they don't know what to do

with them mechanically and that can be

an impediment to their thinking or using

level one the way it's written right now

I mean because it could be adapted for

you know the thinking parts for

six-year-olds and then maybe you

wouldn't put the boxes in there but just

to take level one as it is they would

need to see you know to what happened

with a what to do with a table or a

chart and then it's somewhere along the

way they're going to get formal grammar

sentence parts and how to match them if

you say the dog then the verb says barks

or runs if you say dogs the verb is

barkk or dogs bark dogs the dog barks

the dogs bark so that that's part of

formal grammar um the harmonizing the

subject and the predicate with each

other and that is best taught in

Translation and so I'll say what I say

over and over again every child needs

two

languages I just heard a story it's 343

I just heard a story about the family

are you familiar with the berlitz

language program it was probably the

first one before du lingo or anything

like that you learned berlitz if you

have to take a business trip in the 70s

um and I I just recently heard a story

that the berlitz family was had a a

mother and a father who who spoke

different languages and so each spoke

his own native language to the child and

this the son was the one telling the

story he said so is my mother spoke one

language to me my father spoke the other

language to me and then they hired a

babysitter or something who spoke

another language to me a third language

and when I was little I thought every

human had its own

language so and in a sense we

do um but any other language you can

have besides English whatever is Handy

for you if you have grandparents if you

live close to the Border if you have

Latin

classes um two languages are the best

way to learn grammar

so I'll just throw that in there

translation so when they're using all of

those

things then they're ready for for level

one and I I'll this is here um again but

I said at the beginning if you haven't

spent the last four years um aware with

coaching these this these layers of

skills with awareness then just you can

jump into level one anyway and like T

said with the older students they just

get it

and because it is it it is real life um

the the invention part of level one is

material logic and that is seeing if uh

coming up with true statements and we do

that with the common topics we look we

Define terms We compare things we look

at

circumstances and and children are born

doing these things um Aristotle some I

know I've heard some object to the

Aristotle being used here but he looked

around at the way God made people and he

wrote down what he

saw and we think like this anyway every

time you give a child something to eat

and he says what is it he's using the

topic of definition and when the child

says his cookie is bigger than mine he's

using the topic of comparison and when

he tells his brother mommy said he is

using a topic of testimony so these are

not things that we have to teach them th

this is how children humans think by

nature and we are taking these human

skills these I mean human faculties and

abilities and we are cultivating them so

that we

can think better think on purpose and so

we can do it better and if you want to

hear more about that there's another

webinar I think it was a free webinar

it's um listed somewhere in the Cersei

webinars it's called thinking skills for

young children and it it talks about a

lot more about how to in the pre you

know when they're still doing dependent

reading what are ways that you can have

those conversations with

them that you can cultivate their

awareness of comparison that you can

help them to do it more so they can do

it better you could do it on purpose

they can do it on purpose and you can

ask how are these two things the same

what is it that they both are what is it

they both have what do they both do and

you could do that with

kindergarten so

but there's a lot more detail about

those common topics and how to use them

in a Kindergarten class or at home in

the

car um with your own

children

so I'll stop here and see and ask

questions we do have the session

Thursday the free Q&A session if you new

to Lost tools and you want to ask more

about what's coming in that program this

is about what happens before it so we

have that Thursday um

Thursday at the same time as today's but

so what are your thoughts you haven't

stopped me on the way along the way so

um Michelle what are you thinking what

what strikes you about this or what

questions do you

have or you can

pass I'm going from the bottom up on my

screen um I think it's it's a

helpful

reminder

that really the preparation is just I

don't know I look at this list and I

just think that's just all the things

that we naturally

did yes um as part of

our

um educate like as part of educating our

kids mine are both grown and graduated

now so I just yeah it makes

it yeah

I don't know and just I kind of look at

that list I'm like okay that's just it

seems natural like what you just do with

your children right it does and and you

know our the population here especially

in this webinar today I mean yeah I mean

we're we're the group who Who does these

things um I mean there are a lot of

people I mean my parents didn't do all

these things with me but I think I got a

lot some of it at home and some of it at

school and so yeah I think this is just

naturally what we do I don't have to

read that lady's list about empowered

parents to know I should sing the ABC

song with my

kids yeah but I mean there may be some

things on there I hadn't thought of but

um I think what was what what was

helpful is

um that the I the being the the bridge

the

um helping helping them to see their

words on paper I think that is

that was a very helpful

reminder I figured that would be the one

thing that maybe we talked about so yeah

this is probably the key to what we've

done today I'm going to put that in red

we call it the writing cycle that yeah

that they can so that they can start to

see that this is what words look like

you know that I said it and this is this

is how it's yeah how it's embodied it's

how how our ideas are incarnated and

then as they get older they'll do it

themselves then there right now in all

these lists they're I've probably only

taken us up maybe to about age 10 and

and maybe not as much for the um 11 year

olds or you know somewhere kind of

crossing over getting ready for level

one or you know maybe would be there

anyway if they hadn't done these things

but to um to hear a

story

and hear some like to to hear ideas

about a story and then and then write

write the ideas but that can be part of

that they speak we write it and they

observe but then so they might be

writing sentences that we've read or

they might be writing or copying

sentences that they' or when we get to

the mechanical part especially They're

copying sentences that they've said that

they or a story that they've written

they may tell a story and we write it

all down and they write the whole

story or they talk about something in

class and then they un or with other

children their siblings or their parent

and then understand it better and then

write that so the kind of writing that

follows a

conversation not just from the reading

of the

book but okay Lisa what about

you um I'm thinking about the statement

you made a couple minutes ago well if

they've done these things then they're

ready for lost tools and I'm like but

then you just said I've really only

taken us to about age 10 I'm sorry in my

mind I'm like I'm still processing that

I'm like well they might be ready for

lost tools types of activities but

they're certainly not ready to go

through lost tools level one as written

really yeah and so well if

there the only thing that I left out

that I the reason I said that was I had

left out talking about a story and

writing what they had writing the

conversation in class so I went back and

filled in that that spot but um but if

they can read and write

fluently and and use charts then they're

probably able to use lost tools as it is

written but if you do have a some 12y

olds I mean then then you could have

some adaptations for them and that's

kind of what I mentioned that we were

talking about last week that

um that

um you would do with them if you know if

your audience is 12 year olds or if your

audience is 15 year olds and I think the

adapt ations would be unique to each

Canon because in invention they're going

to be thinking a lot and they can do all

kinds of thinking but then again you

might have to help them write it down

and I think that would be that that

bridge thing to um help them see their

own thoughts on paper um or maybe you're

just like that 12-year-old's Mom that I

talked to last week you just maybe you

just need to write everything that they

need to on paper you know so that's

another adaptation that could be done um

you know or if they haven't had charts

then they need to see how well and see

you fill in the chart which is what a

law schools teacher would do I think if

they say we're going to use this page to

talk about circumstan you know we're

gonna what's going on somewhere else at

the same time so here are the boxes or

here are the circles and and going to

show you one example and then you fill

it in for them and then you give another

example and fill it in for

them and then they see how to fill it in

for themselves um

um probably most of them even if they've

never seen a chart before by the time

they're 12 or 13 could watch you fill in

a chart and then they could put the same

right yeah that's true that's true yeah

I think I'm thinking of it from the

perspective of someone who's teaching a

variety of people and they're in

different places and um another

challenge that I have uh well and often

um you know trying to assess someone you

don't know it's one thing to know you

know this is your child you've worked

with because you've homeschooled them or

you've been in co-op with them or

whatever for a couple of years that's

one thing but to have you know someone

come in and you you don't know them at

all and you're you're trying to assess

based on a writing sample you know you

don't know what you know all of these

things that you just listed on this

piece of paper you really don't know

what they have and what they don't um

that's right

and I and there's an article about that

that I need I would like to find

um about assessment and buck huller

wrote

this a long time ago and it's on the

Cersei Institute blog and it's called

marking Readiness I highly recommend

this to you it was posted in

2010 wow and it's still it's so good and

it's not long I mean that's the whole

thing right

there but he talks about that he he was

a buck holler was a cowboy at one point

believe it or not he um and he he writes

in here about he has to um he has to

start the cult he had to what his job

for a few years was starting a cult he

said before I became an educator I used

to start colts for a world champion

reigning trainer calor trainer his job

was to take an unbroken cult getting

ready for the next phase and he said at

some point the boss would ask is she

ready is Philly ready he never asked me

if she passed a test there was no test

but there were various indicators that

marked her Readiness she had to do turn

stop back up knower leads change leads

relax her head lower her head press your

shoulders there's another long list so I

I can send you let me get

okay the link for this so you what this

is exactly what you're talking about

Lisa that you this is what you have to

do to assess a child you have to know

them you can't give them one test or

look at one writing sample and say now I

know you have to see what they do every

day and some days they do better than

others even when they are ready and some

days they do better than others when

they're not

ready so I want to put that out there

for marking the

Readiness but the but you're AB so

you're absolutely right

so then do did you have a a I think I

interrupted you because I got so excited

about what you're no I don't think so no

and I did that wasn't meant as a

challenge at all it was just you know I

was like okay I'm processing I'm

processing right because this is what we

have to do but it's exactly what he

talks about what do we do when he says

this is how I this is the only way I can

assess them well and I think what you

said about adapting is is spoton you

know that really and I love that about

the program too that it really is

something that can be adapted you know

you can you can stay on an essay and you

know like repeat the same essay cycle

but using a different story or using a

different issue or whatever and you know

that's super helpful so yeah and I know

for a while he was helping to homeschool

his children and they were pretty young

and and for writing I think they they go

to essay 2 or essay 3 maybe they didn't

even maybe essay 2 and he had and his

girls were little and he had them write

essay to the whole year but boy they

internalized that

[Music]

structure so stop there and really the

age of Readiness to begin invention is

from birth like I talked about with the

um the common topics that they use

already and the age of Readiness for

arrangement is usually around Middle

School just just by Nature this without

training without adaptation

without

um modifications and then for elocution

is usually more high

school because that's when we talking

about style and voice and things like

that so so the Readiness is um yeah can

happen different places for different um

cannons and so they probably need more

help in elocution if they're

young but we all need help with thinking

I mean that's just you know to learn

what the to be be be aware of the names

of the topics and things like that we're

not born knowing those and the more we

can name things the more they can call

they can come when we call them we can

use them more

easily T what about you you you probably

know all the stuff too what anything

strike you today um well I have a

student that is a high school student

that is 15 who is struggling and you

know part of me is I don't know um you

know I would say oh well you know

because I'm te I'm teaching The Iliad

and I'm like well it's it's the book he

doesn't understand the book but even

when I had him do I let them pick their

own Topic in the last essay before

Christmas and his answers were just so

simplistic I mean his issue he was no I

mean he he picked whether he should you

know do some stunt you know how boys are

um you know and and I thought well maybe

you know maybe it's familiarity with the

you know with the story and then it the

story is over his head you know but then

you know how do you you know is the

simplistic thinking is that just that

they're not ready for ltw or is that I

don't know I I would expect you know his

work reminded me what I would expect of

a seventh

grader yeah it could be a lot of things

maybe he hasn't done enough of this

maybe he doesn't really have the skills

yet to to present um what he does

understand um it's possible I mean

that's that's one possibility that I

mean it could be mechanical writing

skills or it could be just he hasn't had

enough practice in thinking to be able

to to or reading to be able to see what

what you're seeing in the book so he

might read the sentence and not really

understand what it means or read a a a

you know a chapter a book of it and and

not really get what they're doing

right what's happening in the story so

so it could be a reading issue um but in

that case I don't know if you teach them

the five color highlighting system did

you learn that in the appr I don't know

whose group you were in but for a child

who's struggling with reading that can

help sometimes if they just scan first

and just put all the names in pink so

now they know who the people are and

then they scan again and they they Mark

the green you know then they went to

battle and then and then they stopped

fighting then he said it then the other

guy said it then the other guy said it

so here's this one's speech and then

there's that one speech and then the

first person was gave another speech and

that's that book of The Iliad so you

know that that might help him to do at

least the pinks and the

greens to to see the structure of the

book and who's

there and then maybe maybe the yellow

just you know to get the

action right so if so it may just be or

you know and also too if he could read a

children's book first I don't know if

you asked your high schoolers to do that

before they tackle The Iliad but um just

so he gets an idea of who the characters

are and what's the problem in the story

and

then what they do about it yeah I mean

second semester I just started giving

them the option of fairy

tales but but even with the you know

real life situation his thinking was so

simplistic and his mother is like well

English isn't his thing so he probably

isn't widely read if you know who knows

there may be a reading disability in

there somewhere that you know cuz when I

do the oral review in class you know he

he knows all the things he he

understands

ltw you know but it's like he has a you

know it's like he knows the ingredients

but he doesn't understand how they go

together right and there's there may be

that disconnect between the full mind

than what can get to the page yeah I

mean I seem to have a student every year

who just doesn't get it and everyone

else is getting it I'm like what's going

on I know you know made me want to watch

this and see okay what what makes him

ready for this so yeah well it could be

it sounds like it could be a reading

problem that he's not understanding what

he's reading and and so maybe an audio

book would help if he could follow along

with the book while it's being read to

him because it sounds you know if he had

been read out loud too I don't know I

mean I I don't know how much yeah they

read out loud to him and if his mom

would read the it out loud with him that

would be great right audio book I mean

because then she can stop and listen and

she can see when he gets confused or ask

questions or things like that but then

um an audio book might be good

too but then highlighting while he's

looking at it so you know just listen to

the audiobook and put pink every time

there's a name if he can follow along

and if he's if he really is having

trouble reading then even following the

audio book to put pink for names that

would that'd be a clue

too Camille that made this is making me

think that one of the and what Tana is

saying is that uh you know just that

ability to attend to the

details you know to

really be able to Think Through okay

what were the details of the story what

are the details about the

characters and to really think about

that and even that the skill of going

back and looking

right and yeah because they have to

listen they have to remember and then

they have to

understand what those things are those

details you have to notice them in the

first place they may have to be taught

how to see how to see those details you

know like when you walk through a forest

or the sky you know you look at the

night sky and somebody says oh look

there's that or there's that or you know

that's a bat you know and I think I've

never seen a bat I've never seen a a a

meteor I've you know and somebody's had

to say well look for this this is how

bats look this is what bats look like

when they fly and when when Dr shoran

told me that I thought I looked up and

said oh there's bat but I had to be

taught how to see it and so sometimes I

think that happens to we need teach our

students how to perceive those things in

literature it's not

easy you know we have to perceive it we

have to be aware that we perceive it and

we have to communicate how to perceive

it and we have to do it in a way that

reaches you know that that first we have

to assess and understand who who our

audience is who's that person that we're

talking to what do they understand what

do they not understand so teaching is

hard that's why we're

tired and Shaya I don't want to ignore

you do you have any questions or

comments at this point uh no I think

I'll have to come I'll email you and

then I'll come back to a question and

answer I think I need I've been looking

at this curriculum myself but um I need

to kind of get my hands on it so I can

look at it more in person okay but but

looking you know listening in I feel

like my kids are ready like I could even

do this with my fifth grader

yeah yeah yeah yeah in conversations and

it's so much fun it's delightful I mean

this is about learning how to perceive

the

truth and when we do

that and and we have a perception of

something that's true that we didn't

know before it's an aha moment and it's

delightful and humans love that and you

know we we do want to know we do want to

learn and um sorry I'm not sharing my

screen anymore and uh one thing we do a

lot of in our household is reading we

read together we read by ourselves we

listen to audiobooks together by

ourselves we always have like five books

going on so I

feel we could we could use our books and

have these shared discussions together

so yes yes

yeah it's a wonderful

thing cool that'd be great I'd love to

see you Thursday that sounds good and

we're six minutes over and I'm sorry

I've kept you um if you have more

questions I'm happy to answer them or

you're welcome to come on

Thursday and but I will dismiss us now

there's Arya I didn't see that sign

before is that somebody else or is that

maybe that's sometimes children's names

are on these

screens

okay well thank you for being here and I

will

um I will stop the recording and and be

dismissed and maybe see Thursday