Sascha Riley Interviews - Full Audio

I'm just going to start recording and um

so I just want to clarify in terms of

date July 18th 2025

my full name Lisa well Volding and Riley

you want to state your name and any

other names

>> William I'm sorry

>> no go ahead

>> go ahead I didn't mean to interrupt uh

my name is William Sasha Riley I was

born Manuel Sasha Barers

Okay. Well,

>> my legal name is William Sasha Riley at

this time.

>> Okay. And I'm just so we're clear, I'm

based in Victoria, British Columbia,

Canada. I lived in the United States

full-time for a bunch of years, but I

was brought up in Canada. My

citizenship's Canadian

>> and

>> we might be neighbors at some point

because Canada is right now number two

on the list of the countries I am

potentially going to move to.

>> You know, I think it's a good place to

look. There's a lot of there's a lot of

Americans actually I've spoken to

Americans that I've said is I've told to

to come here and there's lots of

Americans that have come to visit more

and it's a lot more embracing inclusive

of a culture. So, you know, it's quite

lovely. I'd recommend

in terms of what my approach really what

I wanted to do is like to just really

like a thorough discussion. you tell me

everything that that you've been wanting

to say and I I'll ask some questions.

This might be one of like however many

however many discussions and I'll record

them if it's one if it's 10. And what

I'd like to do I'm I'm sort of recording

with an eye to a your testimony getting

your testimony of what you you

experienced, what abuse you suffered and

what you were witnessed to. and and I in

terms of being able to to get into a

format in terms of an affidavit

whether we look at getting help from the

international criminal court

cuz obviously what you know you and I

have discussed already there's

definitely a whole whack of crimes that

that have been getting committed by a

lot of folks and um is even a case where

there could be crimes against humanity

charges in regards to Trump. So, and

what else I'd like to do is is I'd like

to look at whether

whether you would be okay with, you

know, me like transcribing and then

publishing something. I publish

newsletters

selectively. I have a newsletter called

Outlaws of Chivalry. I punch publish

once in a while and I was looking at

perhaps publishing there if you're okay

in terms of how it could help us in

terms of um getting the right legal

support

in terms of the international war court.

I am I am for whatever puts a light on

this because in my mind the powers that

be are already

uh aware of my position on it and aware

that I have spoken up and

>> you know the more light that is shed on

there I don't think that I'm in current

AR except for some maybe lunatic that

wants to uh

be a soul solder for the Donald Trump

because they are a little a little

crazy. They're a little brainwashed. But

>> yeah,

>> um

yeah, I I I don't mind whatever we bring

a little bit more light to this,

particularly this the stuff uh if we can

get some of this stuff verified, you

know, and I know that me speaking up is

one thing, but then uh the verification

process

>> Yeah.

>> Uh you know, is important, too. And I

have read about

software where you know facial

recognition software that that taps into

the uh banks of of known

uh cataloged child pornography. So if

the that the films that they had me make

can be verified. uh you know it's not

something that I can go online but I am

confident that it's there because

somebody that I served with in the army

got put out of the army for child

pornography and my chain McMahon talked

to me and they said hey you know some of

these images some of the films or

whatever that he had looked just like

you and that was the first time I think

I had ever talked to anybody about

having done those films and I told him

yes when I was a child I had to do those

things. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit

more about that circumstance. Like, so

you were in the army. What years were

you in the army then?

>> Um, this would have been my second time

in the army. I rejoined in uh let's see,

2002. Yeah.

>> And I retired in 2016. I was in uh from

91 to 98 as well. So, I did a little

over 21 years. But the time frame that

uh they pulled me into the office and

discussed that would have been around

uh 2008 2009 time frame.

>> It was obviously it was in garrison so

it was between deployments.

>> Yeah.

>> So around that time is when they talked

to me and yeah I can just remember

>> uh

I can remember telling them that that I

knew it was out there. There was nothing

I could do about it and

thinking that there was really no way

to go about, you know, anything at that

point. You know, I I didn't know what I

could do about it, if anything.

>> Yeah. So, it was from when our our

emails the um it was one of the fellow

soldiers that was caught with a bunch of

child pornography

and then your commanding officer pulled

you into the office to go through and

said they see you in the films.

>> I did not look at any of the films. All

they said was,

>> "Hey, we had to look at some of this

stuff

>> and one of those people looks just like

you." And that's the first time that I

had, I think, ever really spoken about

it. And I said, "Yes, you know, those

are probably me." But I did not

personally see them. Um, but

they described

something that I knew that I had been a

part of.

>> Yeah. Can you talk about that a little

bit for us?

>> Yeah. Uh they when when I they pulled me

in, I can remember first Art Bayist was

kind of redfaced and he said, "Have you

ever made a movie with a black girl?"

And and you know that obviously was I

mean I'm not a movie star so obviously

that's a very odd question and I knew

exactly what he was talking about when

he said that.

>> So I said yes. So he said, "Okay, well,

we have found some images that are of a

sexually explicit nature on another

soldier's uh computer, I think. Um,

and they look like you." And I said,

"Well, they are me." So he said, "And

you look underage." I think from that uh

was part of their investigation to

confirm that the images of the uh the

participants in these films were

underage.

>> So

you know that was just a a secondary

verification that uh yeah I was only 12

or 13 at the time of that film maybe

maybe even 11. So I mean obviously I'm

not an adult and even when I was an

adult at 18 or 19 I still looked young.

So obviously at uh 11 12 whatever I was

in that film I would not have looked

like a a mature uh an adult you know.

>> So it was more I think for confirmation

that these images were of children. So,

uh, I don't remember if he actually got

court marshaled or if he just got, uh,

UCMJ, which has just been a lower grade

of, uh, punishment, but I do know that

he was chaptered out of the military

over it.

>> He might have

>> had to do a little jail time, but I

don't tell

>> I can't even recall the soldier's name

that got caught with it. I just knew he

was a an NCO, a staff sergeant.

>> And was there any did anyone else ever

talk to you about the the films again?

Did they ever talk did they ever infer

that there was any further investigation

in terms to when the films were

produced? Did they ask you anything

about who is involved or did they

>> No.

>> No. uh they they didn't they didn't go

into any legality other than uh the

prosecution of the soldier with the

images. So,

>> Louisiana military is a little bit

different than than civilian uh you know

I don't want to call it the court system

because it's just the the the officers

and NCOs's in the military but they they

have their you know sphere of influence

they have their little scope of

operation and and if they uncover I

think that they are in uh required to

give it to the civilian authorities but

they don't have any jurisdiction to go

farther than to just prosecute the

soldier not the infraction that he is

guilty of. If that makes sense the way

I'm saying it.

>> No, I understand. Do they have any duty

or any is there any legality or do they

have legal requirements to in to inform

civilian prosecutors

>> and such cases?

if if they suspect or I if there is

additional money doing that is outside

of their scope of of of being able to

prosecute in in this case to to hold the

individual soldier accountable for

having this material that he's not

supposed to have.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh they prosecute that portion of it. If

it is beyond what they can prosecute,

then they refer the soldier to civilian

court systems. Um, but in this case, the

military did uh handle the uh uh the

prosecution of the soldier and I I think

all he got was like 30 days

uh and and reduction in rank to E1. They

kicked him out of the arm and gave him a

less than audible discharge. I think I

don't think he even got a bad conduct

for that.

>> But uh it,

>> you know, I know that he was put out of

the military.

>> And I think he did the 30 days in jail,

I think, is the most that they can give

you at the uh um at that at the level

that they that they prosecuted him at.

So, um I don't I'm I'm not saying that

they uh you know, for sure on the on the

jail time, but I do know for a fact he

was he was put out of the military.

>> Okay. So, they they they had films. They

had some of those forms.

>> Okay.

>> Cable.

>> Yes. Cable. That was his last name. H A

B E L I think. Staff Sergeant Ael. I

just remembered it because I could

picture his face and I just couldn't

remember his name.

>> Ael. Okay. H A B E L.

>> Yes, I'm relatively certain on that

name.

>> I I don't have the best memory. I was in

a blast in Iraq and one of the things

that I struggle with mightily are names.

>> Yeah.

>> But I I'm fairly sure that's his day.

>> Okay.

Okay. And in terms of the films they

had, so so there there was obviously a

collection of pornography. any is there

anyone you're in contact with of those

your commanding officers that would they

talk to you? Would they provide evidence

or is it a situation

>> Michael Bis is the only one that I

remember speaking to about it. I have

not spoken to him since I left Fort

Carson in 2011.

Um,

I would think that he would probably

remember something like that just just

the unusualness of it. You know, first

sergeants deal with things day in and

day out, but I would I would think that

he would remember that just because of

how it's not every day that you have to

deal with something like that, you know.

Um,

>> yeah.

>> Well, it is it is possible. Uh, I think

my commanding officer's name at that

time was Captain Kul Santo,

but I'm not sure because you get

commanding officers come and go. You

know, the first

>> uh they they tend to stick around

longer.

>> Commanding officers are a lot of times

they're only there for a year or two and

then they're off to the next thing. So,

>> okay.

>> My recollection of the commanding

officer may not be accurate. What's the

the spelling of his last name? Kasanto.

>> Uh, Cola. C O L A S A N T O.

>> Okay.

St. Cola.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. Is there anything else you think

would be helpful to to talk about right

now about then the time frame? That was

the first time anyone had ever mentioned

to you anything about the films other

than

when you were involved in filming.

Is that accurate?

>> Okay.

>> Yes. The the first time that I can

recall anybody that it ever coming up, I

always knew that they were um you know

that the films at at least one or two of

them were out there. I don't even know

how many times I was filmed. Um, but I

can tell you that that some of them are

are

extraordinarily horrible. I can give you

one instance where they were filming us.

It was me and a girl that I knew uh that

I had been trafficked with uh in other

venues and while we were filming uh they

came in and shot her in the head.

So, killed her obviously. So that would

be

>> Was that the runaway?

>> That was another girl. I can't even

remember her name.

>> Yeah, the the runaway was tortured to

death in a duplex in uh Enterprise,

Alabama. My parents did that. And we had

that wasn't on film. uh the not her her

being tortured, but uh that was uh that

was that black girl that I'm telling you

about that that later on uh Michael Bis

had talked to me about, but they went

and got her because they were afraid

that

that this was after the investigation in

Tennessee and they were afraid that that

they would go down for child

pornography. So, they were

>> wanting to kill her and then they were

wanting to get rid of me via an

accident, but

>> they couldn't because

>> they had already tried to kill me

several times. They had the incident in

Texas involving a Chevy van. There was

another in instance in Texas where my

dad threw me into the middle of a pool

and said sink or swim and somebody saw

it and called the sheriff. So, there was

police report on that. And then there

was a third instance in Texas where they

uh my dad threw me down a flight of

stairs and that one fractured my skull.

Now there may have been other things

that happened as well, but I remember

those three were uh uh enough that they

generated an investigation.

Um, there were enough things that

happened in Texas that, uh, my dad moved

from Texas to Tennessee and then got in

trouble in Tennessee and were moved.

They got in trouble in Tennessee and

they moved to Alabama. Got in trouble in

Alabama and then we just moved one more

time.

>> And you told me about your

>> your adoptive dad, William Kyle Riley.

Correct.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> I don't I have um I have located my

birth parents. My birth mother lives in

Sierra Vista and my birth father lives

in Edund, Oklahoma. But I have as yet I

have not reached out to either of them.

>> Um I just within the last year probably

six months I learned where they live.

>> So uh that I don't know that's just an

odd

dynamic for me and I'm still kind of

processing that. Uh, but as far as

family goes, I have a halfsister up in

uh uh Massachusetts and that's about it.

>> Okay.

And your adopted dad, William Kyle

Riley, worked as a pilot and was

involved

>> Yes.

>> integrating in the Epstein Trump,

>> all kinds of things.

>> Yeah. And worked a lot with Trump and

Epstein. Correct.

He

I I know that he was around Epstein and

worked with Epstein and I want to say

that he fought for Epstein and if not

for Epstein directly

um like transporting Epstein himself. He

did transport some of the latch people

to and from uh these parties that

Epstein and company hosted. It's it

wasn't just him. It was kind of a cabal

of several people and Epstein was the I

guess the lead coordinator maybe you

would call it

>> but it it's much more than just him as

an individual you know it was people

like him like Trump uh other people

>> um and I can't remember you know like

how many but he was

he he was handy to have around because

he was a part of the process and he

isn't just a uh like an airline pilot or

something like that. He he can fly

anything. He can fly helicopters, fixed

wing, uh smaller aircraft, larger

aircraft. I mean, he is he's a you know,

he's that pilot that kind of that

multi-purpose guy that could transport

whatever he needed.

>> So, I don't

>> Yeah,

>> I don't know if he ever got into the

drugs.

I can remember him talking at one point

and he had refused to do a drug run

basically and somebody else took that

drug run and they got busted.

>> Yeah.

>> So I don't I don't know what kind of

aircraft it was or whatever and it was

around Florida that that guy got busted

and maybe he flew down uh to the Virgin

Islands or something like that. I I

can't remember the specific details, but

I can remember the conversation that my

dad had talking about, thank God I

didn't take that and because the guy got

busted and he wound up, you know, huge

amount of charges, 25 to life or

whatever the heck he got. But I can

remember from his perspective being

nervous because the people that he was

walking with, he was scared that they

were going to set him up to take the

fall for something to just get rid of

him because he had been involved in so

much other criminality that he was

really nervous about taking on anything

else.

I I know that's kind of word salad the

way that I said it, but I I think you

kind of understand what I'm saying.

>> I do. No, I understand. I understand

perfectly. So your dad

would obviously, you know, my

understanding is your your dad was the

kind of pilot that

those sort of criminals would want to

use cuz they could use him to fly any

anything in any situation to airlift

Trump out like you said when you almost

killed Trump when Trump was assaulting

you or fly guest.

>> He wasn't the pilot in that case.

>> Absolute. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to

interrupt.

>> No, no, that's okay.

So yeah, I've got, you know,

I've spoken to folks that, you know,

they look for those sorts of pilots.

They want pilots that can get

guests traffickers into situations, in

and out discreetly, trafficking victims

in and out of situations discreetly, and

victims that they killed out of

situations discreetly, all sorts of

nonsense. So, seems like

>> And that's what that's what he did. He

he shuttled the people. But I can

remember him not wanting to to cross the

bridge over to running drugs.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, because in his mind, if he got

caught with some people, he could just

play dumb. And I was just transporting

this guy's kid to, you know, find the,

you know, here to there. I I didn't know

anything.

>> So

>> So did your dad

>> I

was Did your dad

will transport the victims

most often.

>> Oh, absolutely.

>> So, more victims than guests.

>> I don't want to call them books.

>> I would say more guests than than

victims. Uh, but he definitely

transported both.

>> Okay.

Okay. And that was either directly for

Epstein like trans wasn't transporting

Epstein so much as Epstein's victims and

Epstein's guests

>> and the clients.

>> The clients,

>> but he was definitely around Epstein. I

can I can remember the one time that I

can remember meeting both of them. And I

I can't even remember Jeffrey hardly at

all, but I can remember the conversation

in the car where they they kept asking

how to say uh Klain's name because it

was unusual. And uh during that meeting,

uh my mom wanted to get the name right,

you know, whatever. That was important

to her, you know.

>> Yeah. And what's your mom's name again?

>> Uh her name was Mary Lynn Riley. This

would be my third mom because my

>> my dad adopted me with a uh a lady ma

named uh Irene Ursula Litzky was her

maiden name. Her name is Pier now. Um

but those two adopted me. He got

divorced from Irene inh 79 or 80 and

almost immediately married Lynn. So, uh,

Irene may have been involved in some of

that, but that would be from a time

frame that I don't have clear

recollection of. I do have clear

recollection of Mary Lynn Riley's

involvement, uh, but she died via

suicide a number of years ago.

>> Uhhuh. Okay.

>> Now, um,

what are you most comfortable to talk

about next? I mean, well, let me ask

some more questions in terms of the Now,

you you told me about Trump and about

Bigs and about Jordan. I feel like

that's important to discuss in details.

And let me ask you a question.

>> Do you think it's more helpful for you

to talk about what you remember first

when you were first trafficked, the

circumstances,

individuals involved, or do you want to

talk about some of the incidents that

that we spoke about a bit by email

already? What's what do you think is

most helpful for you?

>> Fill in whatever gaps in in that that I

can. Um I have spoken to you about most

of what I remember clearly, but I can I

can give you some of the details

with those three and that's why that's

why I I am willing to talk about them.

you know, there's no um

>> I remember more things, but I just can't

I can't I can't give you much in the way

of detail for anybody other than those

three. I can remember Jim Jordan. I went

to a party. This was at a farm. There

were uh I don't know 25 to 50 people

there. I mean, it was it was a good

amount of people, but not a a massive

crowd by any stretch. But what my the

experience that my dad sold to those

people was if you could pin me then you

could do whatever you wanted. But my dad

had taught me how to fight. He had been

a like a bare knuckle dollar earlier in

his uh life. And uh I know that he had

talked kind of just beaten people up for

you know a little extra money at one

point in his life. Uh he he also entered

into like the tough man contest, stuff

like that. So it it was kind of a game

for them because I was just a child. So

you would think that you could just uh

you know do whatever you wanted. But if

they got anywhere near me, I would hit

them. And by the time that Kim Jordan

assaulted me, I was old enough that

those adults, not being most of them not

being athletic in any way, you know,

these are these are people that, you

know, they're not fighters by any

stretch.

>> Uh they they couldn't get anywhere near

me. And Jim Jordan just sort of rushed

me and tackled me and I might have known

how to fight, but I didn't know how to

wrestle. So he assaulted me in front of

a crowd. And I I think that it was

filmed, but I can't swear that it was

filmed, but it was in front of those 25

or 50 people. Um,

>> and how old were you?

>> I remember I was

around 12.

>> 12

>> when that happened.

>> And of those 25, 50 people, oh, sorry.

Go ahead.

>> The reason that I remember Jim Jordan is

he stood out because he wasn't that

much. He's he's only like seven or eight

years older than me. So at the time

frame that I'm I'm at 12, he is right

around just graduating high school,

maybe maybe first year or two of

college, right? So kind of being so much

younger stood out. And then I remembered

his jawline. He has a very uh very

pronounced jawline. I remembered his

voice and he his mannerisms haven't

changed throughout his life either. So

when I really started uh and since Trump

went down that escalator and said he was

running for president, I I I got

involved in politics, you know, I

started I started watching it. Uh I

started watching who supported him and

everything like that. And I remember Jim

Jordan just from watching him on the uh

uh floor of Congress, you know, speaking

to the different people that, you know,

go go up there and testify. So,

uh, that's him, you know. I I just

remembered him. So,

>> yeah,

>> that's I know that's not a lot, but

you give me a polygraph, I'm going to

take it because I'm 100% sure that that

it was him.

>> Uhhuh.

>> And Andy Biggs, I remember because on

the way to this, they took me to a a

house. This wasn't at a party. This was

later after I had assaulted Trump and it

was kind of a punishment type of thing

where he was going to get to assault me

and I guess not pay my parents and he

got to do whatever he wanted. And I can

remember telling me they I wasn't

allowed to fight back or they'd kill me

and you know all of this. But they they

must have said his name 50 times in the

car. So Bigs kept I kept hearing Bigs

Andy Biggs. big. So I I thought I'm

going to remember this way. And after he

assaulted me, I don't even remember the

the assault necessarily, but I remember

being in the car afterwards and being

like really nauseous, sick to my

stomach. I was seeing spots and I mean

uh the guy beat me until I I had broken

ribs and and was convulsing turning blue

and stuff like that. And I can the only

part of that assault that I can remember

is laying on the uh floor of of the room

trying to breathe. And I could I could

hear Andy and my dad screaming back and

forth at each other. And I can remember

Andy Biggs saying, "You said I could do

whatever I wanted." And my dad saying,

"I didn't say you could [ __ ] kill

him." And you know, I think they may

have actually thrown globes over it, but

there was a heated argument and

everything going on for for an extended

period of time. And then I can remember

being in the car leaving and just having

my eyes closed because my head was

spinning and everything and I was just

trying to breathe just in and out, you

know?

>> That's why I remember him so clearly.

Uh, I have had more than one encounter

with Trump and that's why I tried to

kill that son of a [ __ ] because he is a

[ __ ] monster. It's why I have not

shut up about just how absolutely

abhorentt he is as a human being. And

it's why I tried to That's why I tried

to kill him.

>> Yeah.

>> Because I had decided I had already seen

enough other people die that in my mind

I thought uh well, they're just going to

kill me too at some point, right?

uh you know, I'm not going to survive to

be an adult from this. So, in my mind,

he was the biggest privilege that I had

ever had to have any contact with. So, I

was going to take him with me. And

>> how often did Trump assault you?

>> You remember? remember

I can remember two specifically a third

one that I think and I think I was

around him more than those just those

three times but only three times do do I

kind of remember I can remember at one

point him asking uh the people that were

kind of running that party or or

whatever it was at that farm um he

wanted to kill somebody he wanted to

he wanted to murder somebody and they

said, "Hey, that's not this kind of

party. You can't do that." And uh they

and in lie of doing that, they said,

"Well, we've got some some puppies. If

you just want to kill something, we've

got to get rid of them anyway." So, I

can remember him taking those puppies

one by one. And like he snapped one of

the puppies necks, he cut one open and

let it just howl and and and you know,

writhe in pain while it died. held one

under some water to kill it. He just he

he wanted to

kill those puppies in and you know

whatever gruesome way you know to to

experience I guess seeing them suffer in

different ways. What his kink is I guess

if you want to call it that is watching

people suffer.

He likes to destroy people physically,

mentally

during the process of the assault.

That's why he stands out so much in my

memory,

you know, and it's it's it's physical

pain and then it's it's also,

you know, degrading and and and all of

that. But his thing was to just try to

destroy human beings to the to the

utmost that he could possibly do it,

which is why I attacked him.

>> Yeah, that's understandable.

So, um

>> I can tell you this that the last one

and and

Okay, so this was after they had killed

the uh Samantha. This is the vibr that I

made the the one of the movies with.

>> Yeah.

>> Um

>> and these were Let me just ask a

question just to clarify. So when

Samantha was killed, these were were all

of these parties at the farm or similar

locations to the farm

>> where there was multiple

>> multiple farms.

>> And usually it was parties. So there was

individuals like Trump that were flown

in to the parties

>> and they would have like a building, you

know, a house

>> uh and they would usually have like a

tent set up and uh you know, it was

almost like a little I don't want to say

a fair. It wasn't that big. They didn't

have rides or anything, but there was it

was a kind of a coordinated deal, you

know.

Um, sometimes they would have the uh the

bare knuckle fighting. That's that

probably is how I my dad got involved

with these people because uh you know,

you've got boxing and stuff like that on

TV, but that's really all you had back

in the 70s and 80s. They the you know,

more the MMA type of stuff wasn't

allowed. And these fights were a little

well gruesome. They didn't they didn't

fight to the death or anything like

that, but they were they were bloody.

And you know,

>> I mean, these were these were fights,

you know, and not just boxing. And

>> so the the uh rich people would pay to

see that. Sometimes they'd have like a,

you know, a band playing uh you know,

just like what you would expect at like

a fair or something, you know.

>> So the rich folks would get flown in

associated with Epstein and they would

pay to watch the victims fight. The v

victims were all underage. And would

they pay to then assault the victims

after the fights or during the fights?

>> And they'd pay to torture the victims

and rape the victims

>> and kill the victims.

>> Uh but now now some of the fights were

adults,

>> you know, you know, if they had some big

old country boy and some other guy, they

they would pay to see that. They would

also pay to watch the kids fight. And

they did pay to watch me fight. I would

fight other kids. And my dad was was my

initial trainer uh for me to learn how

to fight. I would later uh go on to be a

a boxer, amateur boxer, but that's how I

got my start in all of that. So, yes,

they would have paid for that. Um and

the experiences were different uh each

time. There wasn't like a set thing. You

never really knew what was going to

happen. So, um, you know, part of it, a

lot of it just comes down to money, you

know. So, if they offered, uh, $5,000 to

have sex with me, then then, you know,

my dad was willing to do that,

>> you know, dollar amounts where I don't I

don't

>> Sasha, that isn't that isn't sex. That

that's that's sexual assault.

I mean, I I just want to say something

first.

>> I think, okay,

>> you're extremely brave and you behave

extremely strong like a warrior. And I

just want to stop and say it's important

to me to say that because a lot of folks

you know wouldn't even survive such

trauma but you've you've survived and

you you know you conduct yourself with

with dignity and and and gracefully and

and I is important to me to say that. I

I hope you know that, you know, I hope

you have a sense of your your own honor

and chivalousness, especially what you

told me in terms of drugs they used on

you and how they lured you drug to to to

behave monstrous towards other kids. You

know, I understand the comments. I just

>> I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt,

but I can remember

uh some law some arm of law enforcement

showing me video of me harming one of

the people that they were filming me

with. Now, I don't know how that came

about. Um

whether they they drugged me and I lost

my mind or they told me to do it. I

don't I don't know the circumstances,

but I can remember being in that room

and them saying, "Well, you did this."

And and it may have not even been law

enforcement. It may have been, you know,

like the people that were running that,

but I can remember being really upset

because I had no recollection of having

done that. It was me in the video and I

was beating somebody or a girl set us

and uh I didn't count her or anything

like that, but

I you know

>> Yeah.

>> So, and I have a feeling, you know, this

this part I can't prove because I I you

know, I I have I only have my own

experiences. But what the whole thing

seems to be is that they first abuse

you, then they get you on film abusing

others, and now they have you trapped as

well.

>> Yeah.

>> So, you can't talk about the abuse that

they did to you. If they want you to be

a legacy victim, somebody that they can

use in the future, well, then they've

got to get you on tape doing monstrous

things to other people as well, because

now they have the leverage to keep your

mouth shut.

>> Yeah. No, and you know what? You're

exactly right. That's exactly the

tactic. And it it's it's in the tactic

is insidious because

um

have have you ever heard of the the the

torture technique a lot of um occult

practitioners use? It's called uh

inversion inversion torture. Inversion

magic isn't magic. Sorcery is just smoke

and mirrors, nonsense, deception

techniques, but a sort of inversion

technique where to try to linguistically

manipulate the victims to try to get the

victims in a position where the victims

doubt whether the victims,

>> you know, are good or not. That's

>> absolutely

>> And I think that's the case with a lot

of the Republicans you mentioned. Like

you said, Clarence Thomas and Lindsey

Graham were at these parties. You can't

remember if Lindsy Graeme and Clarence

Thomas participated

>> and it's sort of a question of did they

participate? Were they blackmailed

because they were there attended the

parties but they didn't participate? Can

you tell me much more about Clarence

Thomas and Lindsey Graham?

>> I

know the least about him. The only

reason that I can remember him is

because he was a black man. And the

I'm sorry, but that that that club is is

pretty much just white folks. So having

a black person there uh was very

unusual. So he stood out. But the only

thing that I can really say is that I

remembered him being there and then I

remember what a big deal it was in our

household when he got confirmed on to

the Supreme Court.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh because my dad was excited about that

because of how high up he was. Now I

don't I can't swear I may have been

assaulted by Clarence Thomas but I

cannot swear to that.

>> Yeah. If he did assault me, then it was

not to the level of something that

scared me to the point where I needed to

remember it, if that's a good way to put

that, which rose to that. And Andy Biggs

rose to that. And Jim Jordan rose to

that because he was dangerous to me

because I could keep most people away

from me with my fists, but you know, he

he was a good wrestler. So, you know, he

scared me in that sense that this is a

person that I can't, you know, that I

can't keep away from him with my with my

fist. Um, Lindsey Graham, I am fairly

sure he has assaulted me, but I just

can't put my hand on a Bible and swear

to that.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, I know that he was there. I

can remember it. He he just like uh Jim

Jordan has uh very distinct mannerisms

and his voice is a little unusual as

well. So I could remember his voice, I

could remember his mannerisms and then

obviously how he looks. Um

so I can put him there, but I just can't

I can't say he did this or he did that

exactly. I just can't.

>> Okay. So,

>> I wish that I could provide more

information on that because I I I think

some things went on, but that's just not

enough for me to point a finger and make

an accusation. But he was there. I can

tell you that.

>> Yeah. Well, that's that's that's enough.

And I know that, you know, some sorts of

interviews there's we can look at at a

different time to see if there is any

more information you remember. But what

you do remember I I just want you to

know what you remember to know that what

what you remember is extremely important

and is extremely helpful. I know you

want to be able to remember more and

memories are in there and you know I I

just want to approach the situation

delicately cuz you know

>> other memories are are are

just vague. you know, I can and and and

I I have been very careful too not to to

to to reach out further because there

are some other names that I could I

could mention that I believe were there

that I know for a fact that that my

parents talked about, but

I don't have a clear enough recollection

of anything. Like I can tell you 100%

sure that they talked about Vladimir

Putin, but I do not believe he was ever

at one of those parties that I was at,

but his name was brought up more than

once

>> during the 1980s.

>> Yes.

>> Okay.

>> Vladimir Putin. I don't I don't know

even when he ascended to the presidency,

but I remember the name because it was

so unusual. Now, at that point, he may

have just been, you know, one of the

Russian oligarchs or whatever, but his

name came up and and I remember just

because it's an unusual name, Vladimir

Putin, you know, um but I don't believe

he was ever there. So, that is like

I don't know. It's there are other names

like that, too.

>> Okay, let's talk a little bit about

>> Clinton's name being brought up, but I

don't ever remember saying it. So

Clinton was mentioned, but you never saw

Clinton.

>> Not that I can recall.

And and that's another thing, too. I may

have had interactions with additional

people, but some during some of them, I

was so drugged out of my mind, I I don't

really remember what happened, you know.

>> Yeah. When when you heard them talk

about Putin, so it was at one of the

parties of one of the farms. Do you

remember what they were saying about

Putin?

>> Just that he was some sort of like uh

foreigner that was very important. I I

you know I didn't know anyone you know

the the name was just unusual and

they they mentioned his name you know

they they kind of uh had fun saying his

name you know Vladimir you know does he

like to go by Vlad or this or that but

the the meeting with that person I don't

think ever materialized I think it was

just something that was discussed and

never happened. Now, if he has other

connections, you know, and he very well

may uh that's possible, but I can just

remember there are at those parties

there were people that had strange

accents.

>> Um, but that's that's it. That's that's

all I could say. I couldn't point and

say, well, this person was from Spain or

this person was from Portugal. I I have

no idea. But what I do know for a fact

is not every person at those parties was

American.

>> Yeah,

>> I know that's not a lot, but I again I I

remember what I

>> I have a question

>> with with Trump, I mean with Putin, did

you get the sense that the party

attendees that the clients were

interested in Putin? There was something

they wanted from Putin. They thought

they could get money from Putin,

influence from Putin. Did you have any

sense of that?

>> The only sense that I had was that this

was

uh uh the rich people regardless of

where they were from.

>> Yeah.

>> At this point in my child brain, I knew

that there were rich people and those

people got to do whatever they wanted.

And then they walk into people like me

and those people, you know, that was the

dynamic. So,

you know, that's that's that's it. That

I

I never heard them say anything about

blackmailing and stuff like that, but I

can remember them showing me a video of

me doing bad stuff. And then I can

remember people telling me that if I

ever talked about it, what I had done

was illegal, too. by uh and and a lot of

that was just [ __ ] because I was

just a kid and they were making me do

this stuff.

>> Yeah.

>> But talk about malevolent hypocrisy,

dude. They were just utterly grotesque.

>> They they were trafficking you. They

assaulting you. They were drugging you.

And then they were trying to

>> to to they they were trying to make me

feel

>> psychologically torture you. Exactly.

Exactly. when they you were in a

situation because they were trafficking

you.

>> The the last encounter with Trunk, the

one where I injured him was the one that

I remember the most vividly. And this

was the setup for that. I can remember

my dad before we went to the farm. This

was when we lived in Enterprise,

Alabama.

>> Yeah.

>> So, it would have been about 81 to 82,

somewhere in there. maybe as maybe as

late as 83, but he said there may be

somebody that you know there and and I

can remember the look on his face and it

scared the [ __ ] out of me.

>> But anyway, when I got to the farm, of

course, I'm scared at the farm because I

don't know what's going to happen. But

the first person that comes up to me is

a girl named Patricia. This is a girl

that I had been trafficked with before.

and she came running up to me and, you

know, said said hello or whatever. Uh,

she was about my same age, around 12 or

13. And I can remember my dad saying,

"Well, why don't you guys go run off and

and or whatever and and have fun

and I I can I can remember not knowing

what to do in that instance because, you

know, these parties weren't for me. I

wasn't." And then then he said something

to the effect of,

>> you know, It's not like that for you

anymore. You're a man now. You can just

go out and have fun. Well, we went to go

have sex. So, uh, we went and found a

room and started having sex and while we

were having sex, people burst into the

room. It would have been four, five, six

guys, big guys, adults. Uh,

at least one of them had a gun. I think

I think two or three of them had guns,

but they came in, they assaulted her,

they beat on her, and then they shot her

while she was still in the bed. They

didn't beat or assault me, but what they

said was, "If you don't do everything

that the next person coming in here

wants,

we're going to shoot you just like we

did her." I can remember them having

like an argument because they shot her

in the bed and then they had to go find

another mattress. Well, that's where

Trump came in. So, that's why I remember

him so vividly. And it was at that point

I had already decided they're probably

just going to kill me anyway. I'm going

to take him with me. And I tried. I did

not.

>> How did How did you

So, obviously Trump was extremely

violent. Trump's um a sadistic

psychopath. when Trump assaulted you.

So, sexual assault and physical assault.

>> Yes.

>> And

we act out at that. Well, I kind of

acquiesced to whatever sexual things

that he wanted to do. But at some point,

uh, he wanted me to have sex with him.

So he laid down on his stomach and there

was a uh northern tent steak that was in

the room and I had been eyeballing it as

a weapon and what I did was put the

condom on the northern tent steak, put

it inside of him and I kicked it as hard

as I could and that's why he had to get

lifelighted out because I ripped him

open.

Sweet. Do you ever watch the movie The

Equalizer?

>> No, I haven't seen it.

>> Denzel Washington, you know, sort of

like justice when everyone in involved

in American law enforcement can't

get any justice. Um, that would be a

sort of situation obviously.

Um, I laughed because there's poetic

justice there,

>> Sasha.

that and that was what facilitated that.

Not only did I get really assaulted by

uh Andy Biggs, I also got assaulted by

like an entire party's worth of people.

They took

>> after Trump was airlifted out.

>> Yeah. A whole another party. So they

took me to another party after that. And

because I had done that to one of those

rich people, um I they took me from like

station to station and they could do

whatever they wanted. Most of them just

beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat

beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat

beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat

beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat

beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat

beat beat on me. I can remember me

standing there had already gotten beaten

up you know I don't know five six times

and I can remember somebody urinated on

me and I said thank you for not hurting

me. And he just hauled off and punched

me in the side of the head. Knocked me

out. Uh,

>> I can remember leaving that party and my

dad was just kind of dragging me out of

there.

It was another instance just like with

Andy Biggs where I got beaten to the

point where, you know, I was I was the

ring was spinning. I was nauseous,

probably throwing up. Um, maybe some

broken bones uh badly.

>> And how many perpetrators did you say

again? 20 to 40 25 to 40 perpetrators

>> people that were there. Yes. I would say

probably eight or 10 that just beat the

absolute hell out of me. And some of

them probably sexually assaulted me, but

I can't remember. I can remember getting

a hurt, you know, just getting beaten up

and uh you know,

>> was that before you tried to defend

yourself from Trump or after? Do you

remember?

That was after that was after a

punishment, if you want to call it that.

The what happened at that party was part

of the punishment. And then I can

remember them saying that this is the

last step when I had to go see Andy

Biggs. Andy Biggs almost [ __ ] killed

me.

So I remember him to this day. I Yes.

>> So when Andy Biggs almost killed you was

after Trump as well?

>> Yes.

>> Okay. after Andy Biggs was after Trump.

The party that a whole bunch of people

assaulted me was after that. And then

the last one was Andy Biggs. And then I

can remember my dad saying no more. Uh I

can remember him even kind of breaking

down a little bit like psychologically

because

of just I guess the repeated watching me

just get destroyed by people. You got to

understand it's not like boooos and

band-aids. They were breaking ribs and

he uh really hurt me. You know, I've got

like a defam rib cage to this day.

>> No, sounds like they were trying to tort

you just to the point of death to to

punish you

>> and to send a message.

>> They tried over and over again to hint

to me to get me to kill myself.

>> Yeah.

>> And I can remember thinking there's no

way I'm going to kill myself because

that's what they want.

So just I survived some of that just out

of spite to be honest with you. Uh

there's there's really no other way to

put it. But I wasn't going to I just I

kind of remember hating my mom so much

that there I just did not want to give

her the satisfaction.

>> Yeah.

>> She as bad as my dad was

Marilyn Riley was even more evil.

>> She her thing was sexually torturing me.

So

>> and and she enjoyed sexually torturing

Samantha when they went and got help.

>> And Samantha was the runaway that

>> writing that woman.

>> She always she lived in a uh a brothel

basically a a house where they had uh

four or five underage girls that had

they had scooped up from wherever they

got them from. and uh they would use

those girls at these parties. Well, at

one time they sent me to go be a part of

that. So that's when I made friends with

Samantha, Patricia, and Sarah. And those

are the only three that I can remember

their names, but Sarah um committed

suicide. Samantha was tortured to death,

and Patricia was the girl that got shot

in the bed before Trump came in.

>> Did Patricia die?

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.

So Samantha,

Patricia, and Sarah, and all three died.

>> Yes.

>> Yes.

>> So Samantha was the runaway that was

murdered by your adopted parents.

>> Yes.

>> Patricia committed suicide. Sarah

committed suicide. And Patricia was

murdered in the bed before Trump came

in. And then they threatened

>> you and said to let Trump do whatever

Trump wanted to do to you. where they

would shoot you in the head as well.

>> Yes.

>> Yes.

>> Okay.

>> And I can remember I can remember them

pointing the gun at me

and saying, "We're going to kill you and

my dad protesting because he said, "If

you shoot him, we all got to go to

jail." And he was he was really I can

remember him be distant. Now, he was

he's a kind of a tough guy and you know,

all of that sort of stuff. So, that's

what stood out to me was he was really

scared because he knew that if they just

shot me, that's not something he could

explain to anybody. And he had gotten

into so much trouble trying to get rid

of me already. But, uh there's the the

Chevy van incident, there's the pool

incident, and then there's the uh uh

stairs incident. And all of those

generated a a police report. In addition

to that, we went down to Panama City,

Florida to the beach, either Panama City

or Dest. And they took me to a rip tide

area. Uh I didn't know it was a riptide

area. There were no other people on the

beach, you know, it was just us. But

within like 100 yards, 150 yards,

there's the regular beach where people

were at. Uh you know how they have the

the riptide zones? They don't want you

out there, right? For obvious reasons.

while they took me to one of these zones

and had me, you know, say, "Hey, you

know, come out here and play in the

water and this and that." And for the

first few minutes, it was just the three

of us playing in the water and I'm just

a kid. You know, beach is awesome. So,

uh,

at any rate, they go back in. I'm out

there playing. Eventually, that that

current gets me and I don't know how to

swim at this point in my life. So it

pulls me out, you know, 100 feet maybe,

and I'm bouncing up and down off the

sandbar, just screaming my head off.

Well, somebody that was on the regular

beach, not in the rip tide area, heard

the screaming and came running like 150

yards away and by my parents who were

standing there and he goes out there and

gets me, fishes me out. By the time he

comes back, he's nearly exhausted. And I

can remember him and my dad nearly

fighting and at this point there there

are other people that are coming and you

know that scares the [ __ ] out of my dad.

But there was another police report with

that and I know that that police report

followed us back up into Alabama because

the sheriff came down there and talked

to uh talked to my dad in Alabama. So

there was another investigation for

sure. So all of those things had already

happened and my dad was terrified that

if something happened to me at

especially so close to all of these

other things that that all of these

other investigations, he pretty much

knew he was going to go to jail over it.

>> So there was at least the the the Chevy

van incident, pool incident, stairs

incident, there was police and police

reports. How many police were reports?

About three or four.

And then

>> that I can I I were just involved in

trying to get rid of me. And then there

were in addition to those four, there

were the two investigations, one for the

porn and then when we lived in the

duplex and they were torturing that girl

to death, Samantha, um our duplex

neighbors there in Enterprise, Alabama,

they called the police because they

could hear uh you know, screams and and

uh you know, beatings and stuff like

that. And when they investigated, I can

remember my dad saying, "Hey, you know,

he talking about me as just uh uh you

know, I had gotten in trouble and got a

whipping or something." And they did an

investigation. They they like uh they

collected blood samples and everything

from the house, but the problem was they

couldn't determine how long that blood

had been there, I guess. and they didn't

it wasn't a match to anybody in the

house.

>> So I for whatever reason they just

didn't have enough and I I don't think

they were allowed to talk to me. I think

my dad would have had to given them

permission for the investigators to

interrogate me.

So I don't recall ever giving testimony

as a child

at least in that instance. Why in the

instance up in uh Tennessee?

>> Did you provide any testimony to the

police in any of those five cases? Well,

the one case with the military with a

child pornography. You

>> they the the the I can't remember the

sheriff talking to me at the uh at the

beach in Panama City and

I don't remember what all was said, but

I can remember my dad tried to get out

of there and the guy that went and

fished me out, my dad's a pretty big guy

and he's he can fight, but the guy that

went and got me was like a I mean he was

a tank, so it wasn't something that he

wanted to really get into a fight about

over there and the you know people

started coming in so they my parents I

can remember them trying to hug me and

stuff. Oh my god, thank God. I can

remember the guy that fished me out and

he said, "There's no goddamn way. I

heard that from 150 yards away and

you're standing there watching him and

you didn't hear it, you know,

and you know, they tried to play it off

like, well, we just thought he was

playing, you know, swimming and stuff

like that." And I can remember the

sheriff asking, "Do you know how to

swim?" And I said, "No, sir." And they

were like, "Okay, this this [ __ ]

sucks." You know, there's no way that

this is legitimate. And I can remember

the sheriff

in Alabama talking to my dad and saying,

"There better not be anything that

happens to him." And he said, "Because

I'm just going to go ahead and tell you,

you're going to go to jail. I don't

care." He said, "I'll make sure of it."

>> So they they had a sense, but they

didn't know. They didn't have enough of

what they thought of as evidence to be

able to do anything.

>> Exactly. Right.

>> And that was the case with Samantha as

well.

>> Yes. And and your dad wouldn't let them

talk to you.

>> What's that?

>> And your dad wouldn't let the the police

officers talk to you.

>> So,

>> right.

>> That also seems weird.

>> That he it

>> seems weird. I I mean I know in Canada

is a bit different like

in terms of you know there would have

been folks from child protection

services there and they would have

gotten you away from your your adoptive

fathers to talk to you to talk to you.

>> You wouldn't have gone through that sort

of horror in Canada.

>> I'm

>> I'm really sad that's what had occurred

>> at at one point CPS did take me. So, I

got into the foster care system and the

ultimately uh I'm I'm just going to I

was ungovernable, incredible as as at

that point in my life. If if you said

something to me, um you know, I didn't

necessarily I I didn't care who you

were. I wasn't necessarily going to do

that and I might just hit you, you know,

because that was just my response to

life at that point. So, uh, eventually I

made my way right back to that house.

So,

>> I can tell you that throughout the

process of trying to walk with me, Jane

Goodall was the people that walked with

me. So, I know that she is still alive.

I think she's still alive. I think she's

91 now.

>> Yeah.

>> And she might recall him having locked

with me because I that would have been

one of the strangest cases she ever had

because at around that time frame I had

made the decision that I would no longer

let anybody get within arms reach of me.

And if they did, I just I'd fight for my

life.

>> So, you know, people had to stay away

from me. I could talk. I mean, I wasn't

like a a feral animal,

>> but I just would not allow people

>> within my personal space anymore.

>> And because I work, you know, with with

apes and everything with gorillas, you

know, they they kind of reached out to

her to make contact with me to see if

they could

help me.

>> Yeah.

And did you talk to Jean Goodell at all

about what you'd experienced getting

trafficked? I know when you and I spoke

by email messenger you said was from

during about 1978 to 1986 is what you

remembered 9 to 13 but you're not sure

it could have been as early as 6 or 7

years old.

>> Right. Right. I don't really start

remembering what was going on till about

10 or 11. And uh I just know that it

happened before that. I can I can

remember being sexually assaulted by

family. Uh that's some of my very first

memories.

So um but as far as taking me to other

places

and these parties and and whatnot, I I

know that that sort of thing was

happening, but I just don't have a good

enough recollection to really piece

together much of a story. So whether you

were six or seven years old or or 10 or

11 years old with the parties

when you

>> right

>> I know family was assaulting me and then

friends of family were assaulting me as

early as six or seven. I I know that

some of my very first memories

>> are of being assaulted. Um but as far as

taking me to places to make money at

these parties, I don't have a clear

recollection. It may have happened as

early as the the first sexual assaults

that were happening with family. Um, but

I don't have a clear recollection if

that was going on to that scale at that

time, but do have a recollection from

about 10 or 11.

>> Okay.

So,

how much

>> I know.

>> No, no, it's it's okay. I'm I'm I'm glad

you're you're you and I are able to have

such a thorough discussion and and I

appreciate again how straightforward

forthright you are. You know, it's

extremely important. Um,

>> I mean there's a part of me that just

wants to point fingers in every

direction, but I have I have really

thought about, okay, what do I recall

>> vividly enough that

uh that I would put my hand on the Bible

in a courtroom, raise my hand and say,

"Yep, that's the truth." And and what I

am as close to 100% certain that if you

put me on a polygraph, it would come

back just as perfect. Yeah.

>> So, there are other things that I could

maybe point fingers at, but then it kind

of gets into muddying the water because

I don't really remember them that well.

>> Well, I think

>> that's why just

>> Yeah. No, that's that's good. And I

think what what I'd like to do like

we'll continue, you know, discussing a

bit about we're talking about now. um

the things that you're less

sure of. I'd like to look at a a second

a a conversation just entirely focused

on what you're not sure of just because

I think there is some important

information there, but I don't want to

muddy the waters in terms of what we're

speaking about now that you that you are

willing to testify in a court of law

about. So, so let's f continue focusing

about any of the details about what

you're willing to swear to in a court of

law

>> and then

>> you know then let's look at I would

maybe look at say a second discussion

and any any follow on questions from

this discussion or I might just look at

getting everything transcribed and I'm

just going to look at it raw because

honestly in terms of um

you know all the there's Obviously

thousands and thousands of of

pieces of video footage filmed that the

FBI took that's all gone into some

>> Yeah.

>> whoever's been trying to profit off of

is nonsense. So my what I'm looking at

I'm thinking even a a combination like

just a brief summary for me like a

paragraph and I'll even look at at just

publishing the raw audio file of our

discussion

>> okay

>> with the text messages because I think

the context is really important I think

especially because there's been so much

collusion regarding copy editing of

video footage that you know folks that

are really wanting that are genuinely

wanting justice. You know, for them to

just hear the audio recordings and read

the text messages is plain as day.

Anybody that experiences an ounce of

integrity will be able to discern the

truth. And I think it's so important.

>> And I I kind of wanted to discuss one

other thing too. one kind of theme at

these parties

that

that seemed to be very uh very well

thought out is

they would have a larger party in the

beginning, right? And and in these

larger parties, you might have say uh a

couple of fights or some drug use or uh

you know, things that that that that

that were

kind of with mildly illegal, but the

parties would go on for multiple days

and as the uh thing wound down into the

smaller inner circle and the last day or

last two days or whatever, that's when

the really horrible [ __ ] happened.

So, some of the people that attended the

party, possibly even people like

Clarence Thomas or Lindsey Graham, may

have been involved in lesser things,

uh, but then were also at the, uh, same

time and place where these horrible

things happened, but they didn't

necessarily participate in those more

horrible things.

So that seemed to be an underlying theme

of oh and and this is just me

speculating here as an adult where they

would try to get these affluent people

in all of these positions of of power

and influence to come participate in

these parties where all of these things

were going on so that you know if

Clarence Thomas I'll just use him if he

was there at the party well then surely

nothing you know that nefarious could be

going on type of situations.

Yeah.

>> So, it seemed to be very wellought out

how they kind of did things. But as the

party wound down, that's when people in

my position would really begin to get

scared because that's when either going

to get assaulted and maybe really busted

up or, you know, I mean, even watching

somebody die is a

royally [ __ ]

you know.

>> Did Did it Did you see anyone else die

besides um Samantha and and Patricia?

Yes.

>> Yes.

>> So, uh I watched

I watched a grown man get beaten to

death. He had done something

uh that pissed off the people that were

running it and they killed him. I saw

another girl that in addition to

Patricia when I was making the film with

the girl, they came in and shot her

while we were having sex. That is some

sort of snuff film.

>> Yeah. Um, and then in the brothel there

were two people that got killed. Uh,

Sarah killed herself and then the girl I

don't remember her name, she was she was

shot and killed and then another girl

was also shot and killed.

>> Okay. And all of these

>> No, go ahead.

>> Me and Samantha having to clean up. Uh,

we didn't have to do anything with the

body, but I can remember me and Samantha

had to clean up the blood and everything

from from both Sarah Sarah's suicide,

which was an assisted suicide. Samantha

actually shot Sarah. Um, but Sarah

wanted her to do it. She couldn't pull

the trigger herself. So, that's just So,

Samantha did it. I was in the room when

she did,

but it wasn't it wasn't a murder.

Samantha didn't murder, but Sarah just I

can remember her just saying, "I just I

can't go to another party. I can't be

here. Please." You know,

>> another of the victims, I don't know if

you've read about, uh, the British woman

Sarah Ransom was on the Epstein island

and and tried to swim off the island and

was willing to drown than then go

through another

>> Yeah.

>> torture. I mean,

>> it's some

[ __ ]

>> Yeah. And you know it it I can remember

the the hillbillies that my dad sold me

to when I was small. They were mean.

Um but I can remember the meanest

[ __ ] are those rich people.

They are just demonic. Trump included.

>> Yeah. Well, I'm going to ask you some

questions there again. So with the the

the rich folks that you were sold to,

that was all associated with with the

Epstein Trump trafficking ring. And you

said to me you thought Trump ran things

with Epstein. Is that true?

>> Oh yes. He was not just a a client, he

was one of the the

>> people that facilitated all that stuff.

It it was almost like uh

this is just my childhood brain piecing

it together. It was almost as if Epstein

looked for Trump and not just Trump, but

him and maybe six or eight other super

rich guys. So,

>> Bernie ran it.

>> Yeah.

>> At the behest of Trump and and that

circle of people. So, it was it was just

a I I couldn't tell you how many people,

but he was the only one that that that

I remember that was at that level. But

it wasn't that Trump was a John

visiting, you know, Epstein's empire of

of, you know, child

victims. It was Trump was in a a

position above Epstein. Anyway, as if

Epstein rocked for Trump.

>> Yeah.

>> And the rest of those ultra rich guys.

>> Do you remember ran that ring?

>> Yeah. No. No. I understand. I So, so ret

so Jeffrey was sort of presented

publicly

as the ring leader of the pedophile

ring, but Jeffrey was basically behaving

like uh like a general manager of the

ring. And then there was seven or eight

other individuals such as Trump that

were actually actively running the ring,

micromanaging, telling Jeffrey what to

do.

they he would give

Epstein

of that caliber of person because I it

wasn't just Epstein. Epstein had people

that walked with him too on a on a low

level that would go like find runaways

and stuff like that.

>> Yeah.

>> So I don't I don't know where they got

the people. I can't I can't say that.

But you know it was it was this this

whole thing was being run as a Yeah. and

for those rich people.

>> Yeah. I I want to ask some more

questions in terms of your sense of like

the demonic

um

some of some of the the advisor work

I've done, some of my

own specifics of law enforcement.

Um you know, I've come into contact I've

minimized any contact with. I'm familiar

with a lot of really horrific horror

stories that involve

um Satanists, cult practitioners,

theistic Satanists. You know, I've I've

spoken to folks that um were able to get

out of the theistic Satanist cults. A

lot of the torture techniques you

describe are similar to theistic

Satanist torture techniques.

um sexual torture,

>> human trafficking, human countibism and

what I wanted I I you know what what's

your sense in terms of these parties

that that what do you remember like was

there any overt I know a lot of the

attendees presented themselves as

Christians

but their practices are are full-blown

demonic satanic

do you have the sense that any of them

were actually secretly practicing

any sort of occult rituals or were they

just like rich fish fake Christians that

just didn't experience a conscience?

>> I think it's the latter just rich fake

Christians. I can I can tell you uh one

thing specifically that Trump did.

>> Yeah.

>> And uh that I remember vividly. He uh I

was exhausted. I couldn't fight back.

And he sat on my chest and would choke

me until I was unconscious. And each

time that he did it, he'd say, "I'm

going to kill you." So, and then he

would choke me until I was out. And, you

know, he did that, you know, half a

dozen times or however many times. And I

can remember him saying, "I thought I

killed you that time. I'm really going

to do it this time." And then choke me

again. So he would just do that over and

over again until he got it.

>> So that's

>> Did you get the sense that he was trying

to kill you or just to torture you about

the

>> thought in the moment? In the moment you

think you're going to die? Yeah.

>> And that that's the experience that that

he wants to see the fear in another

human being's eyes that thinks that that

that he's killing them, you know.

>> Yeah. Um, but looking back, I just think

he was just talking me, you know. I

don't think I think had he wanted to

kill me, he could have. You know, he

could have just kept choking me until I

was I was tall. If I did, I did get

choked until I was unconscious. I don't

know, as many as half a dozen times,

maybe more.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, uh,

so that's the type of thing that he

would do worse, you know. Um, I believe

I wouldn't swear to this, but I believe

that on that instance they had told my

dad had told him, "Hey, you can't bust

him up. You can't break stuff." Um, you

know, because all his CPS [ __ ]

>> Yeah.

So, and and I want to say I want to say

he was upset at the end of that too

because bruising,

>> you know, they didn't bones or anything.

>> Uh,

but you know, obviously I had bruising

around my neck and different bruises on

my body and and uh

that's something else too that that I'm

just remembering right now as I'm

talking to you. At least one instance,

the school nurse

uh got CPS involved, I believe.

>> Yeah.

>> In both Tennessee and Alabama because of

the bruises that I showed up to school

with.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, of course, my parents just

said, "Hey, he's clumsy. You know, he

fell out of a treehouse or whatever

excuse they gave, you know." Um but

there was

he was looked into but obviously nothing

nothing materialized from

>> you're caught.

>> So

let me see.

>> Can I call you back in about 10 minutes?

>> Sure.

>> Okay. I just I just want to make sure

I've got the recording set. you know,

let I want to get into a file folder and

get some duplicates and then I'll call

you back. Okay.

>> Okay. Sounds good.

>> Talk to you in a minute. Bye-bye.

>> Board.

Okay.

Oh,

I'm just checking here

>> to to kind of recap what we were just

talking about. Yeah. One of the first

memories or one of the first memories

that teared itself into my uh

consciousness because of of being what I

perceived as a threat as a child was

watching Donald Trump kill a litter of

puppies. Um, he did it in a variety of

ways. As I stood there, they made me

stand there and

he would hard or kill the puppy and then

look to see what my reaction was. And in

my child's brain, that registered

because I viewed him as somebody more

dangerous than my parents. And I knew

that they would hurt me. So in my uh

ability to to reason uh my reasoning was

if they were watch people than my

parents that they were somebody that

might kill them.

So that is why he was so

that's why I I I I

most of the stuff I just tried to

forget.

But with him, with Andy, and with Jail,

I remembered them because they the truth

is they scared me.

>> Yeah.

Okay. So, I'm going to summarize a bit

about what what we had discussed that um

wasn't recorded.

So, with Trump, when Trump murdered the

puppies and forced you to watch, had

Trump, you were eight or nine years old.

That was your first remembrance of

Trump.

And had Trump sexually assaulted and

tortured you already?

>> Maybe, but I don't recall I think what

happened. And I I'm relatively certain.

But I think that that was the precursor

to him sexually assaulting me. So I

think that that was in an effort to make

the like experience as as vital as

possible for me. Um that was the same

kind of emmo that was used with Patricia

later on. Uh

>> and and

he it seemed to be that he would use his

imagination as such to try to figure out

what way would be the most traumatic to

make the most traumatic experience to

destroy somebody, kind of traumatize

somebody to the maximum potential

possible.

So that was the the first template of

that was watching hand kill those

puppies and then the next higher order

of that and I couldn't tell you exactly

how much time passed between but I would

say likely a a couple of years or at

least a year later um

the instance with Patricia.

>> Okay. And the incident with Purdue Sha

>> was when

>> at that point I had already in my mind I

had already thought there's no way I'm

going to live through this anyway. They

just, you know, they're just going to

torture me to death anyway. So I might

as well do everything I can to fight

back.

>> Okay. And so with the incident with

Patricia then recapping, they told you

to go into another room with Patricia,

there was film. They were filming.

>> No, no, no, no.

>> It wasn't filming in such a case.

>> What happened with me and Patricia? Uh,

my dad before we got to the party said,

"Hey, there may be somebody you know." I

had been trafficked with her previously.

>> Yeah.

>> But she and I were as close to being

friends as you could be. We were, you

know, in the same boat. uh of course,

>> you know, our station in life. So, uh we

had kind of become friends and she ran

up to me and I can remember she said,

"Hey, come and go with me."

And I said, "You know, I can't." And my

dad said, "No, no, no. It's okay. You

guys go off and have fun." And and I

said, "What do you mean?" He said, "You

can go just have fun. You're you're an

adult now." And I can remember thinking

in his mind I was wondering, you know,

what happens next. You know, the only

thing that I knew of really of being an

adult was my dad. And I knew that he

didn't go to these parties and get

assaulted. So in my mind, you know, I

thought, well, maybe that part of my

life is over. But anyway, we left. We

wound up going into the farmhouse. We

went into the room not at the behest of

anybody else. Um, she wanted to have sex

with me because she knew I wouldn't hurt

her.

>> I believe, I won't swear to this part,

but I relatively certain she and I had

already made some movies together. Um,

you know, not at the farm, but at at you

know, a shoot. Um, but I didn't I didn't

have sex in a way that brutalized

people, you know, because I kind of knew

how that hell. Um, so it was a matter of

her kind of choosing somebody to try to

go have sex with so she didn't she

wouldn't be placing her life in danger

by having sex with the, you know, one of

these goods guys. So, we went in and

started having sex. This was not in

front of anybody. It wasn't uh filmed

that I know of. It was just we kind of

if we were going to have the opportunity

to go have sex with somebody, we were

going to go have sex with each other

because

that in that instance, neither of us

would get hurt.

While while we were in that room, after

some period of time, the uh the people

at that party busted in, six, five, six,

eight maybe people, big people, adults.

Uh,

at least one of them had a gun. I think

three or four of them had a gun to be

honest with you.

>> Um, but then they assaulted her with me

at gunpoint and then they killed her in

front of me. said

>> that's what's going to happen to you if

you don't do everything the next person

that walks in this room what they want.

>> Do you think they knew Trump was going

to walk in the room?

>> Do you think they do you think they had

premeditated that Trump would walk in

the room next?

>> Oh yes.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Okay.

>> Just part of the experience for him

>> uh you know to get to traumatize me

>> and I for all I know he was watching

through a a you know crack in the wall.

I I I I don't know about that.

>> So like an escalation from the puppies.

>> Yes.

>> Okay. So Trump would traumatize you

first and then sexually assault you. Or

was the incident with the when Trump

murdered the puppies and forced you to

watch

>> and then the incident where

>> Trump had Patricia killed?

>> Yes.

>> Okay.

And then that's the incident with Pat

Patricia we we spoke about where um

Trump assaulted you, tortured you, and

then Trump wanted you to engage in sex

with Trump and you found the tent peg

and got a condom on. and then inserted

the condom in Trump

>> anus just

>> and kicked as hard as you can.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And my plan was to to continue hurting

him to death. But as soon as I did that,

uh, he started screaming and those same

people busted back in it.

>> So,

>> and then what occurred?

We my dad was at that party obviously

not in that room. It was just these

other people. But uh

we did not get assaulted or anything at

that party. They didn't know what to do

at that point. So we left. We didn't get

beat up. I didn't get further assaulted

by anyone. But some period of time

passed. Uh a week, two weeks, six weeks.

Uh, I I couldn't tell you how much time,

but I can remember my dad saying, "We've

got to go face the music."

So, you know, I can remember him talking

to me like I had I had done something

wrong. He said, "You can't do that to

the rich people." Um,

you know,

they're they're you're going to get beat

up is basically what he said. He said,

"You've been beat up before. It's going

to be just like that. You'll you'll be

okay.

Um, but I can remember him saying, "You

can't fight back or they'll kill us

both."

>> And that's when you were taken to the

farm and then six or eight maybe 10

different groups

>> assaulted and tortured. like, yeah, it

was it was at least three or four or

five people at a time in these ramps

because I think by that point I was well

I had I had done what I did to Trump.

They knew that that I was kind of in a

like a homicidal type rage. They made

sure to have enough people that that

they felt safe um because also my dad

could fight too and he was there. So

they had in each of these little groups

um they had enough that they they felt

that they I I'm sure that they could

overpower both me and my dad because my

my dad's no slouch either. I could fight

like a long long time even as a child

because of how I came up. Well, he was a

bare knuckle boxer, a tough man type of

dude. Uh so he could fight too but they

it was like they took us from station to

station you know to I I don't know just

to increase the the

horror of it I guess I I I really

>> premeditated seems like a premeditated

like

>> well

>> what I know of Trump is that Trump would

attempt to premeditatedly stage such a

scene to to terrorize you retaliatory.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> So,

>> so he wasn't there at that. I I assume

that he was once a close enough time

frame that he was still recovering.

>> Yeah.

>> But, uh, I can remember that and even my

dad having the conversation with the

people because of the level that they

had kind of taken it to to get me to

that homicide rage.

Uh, I remember my dad arguing that it

was unreasonable. He said, you know,

this is just what happens when you push

somebody far enough, you know.

>> So then they

>> an argument.

>> So then they they they took you to

different locations, several groups at a

time, tortured and assaulted you

sexually. And then at one point you said

they they hosed you off with a garden

hose. And what did they say? say again

to your dad that you were there needing

to to you off

>> that. Yeah, they they said he's

disgusting. Just take a garden hose to

him or something. Um, and somebody went

inside the house, got a a bar of soap,

and I remember they throw it at me and

hit me in the head, and that they all

thought that was funny. And I was

struggling because I had to get uh get

the soap from the ground. And I can

remember being

hit to the point where I was just having

trouble grasping the the soap. uh not

just from the standpoint of like being

able to see it, but like from the

coordination aspect of it

>> just because I'd been taking the head

and and body and everything so much that

I even had difficulty in getting the

soap.

>> So they made me like take a shower with

a while they stood there with the the

garden hose just hosing me off. I can

remember getting really cold from that.

Uh but then it wasn't over. That would

have been about the halfway point. And

you said it was sexual assault followed

by beatings in all of those cases.

>> Yes. Some some people didn't even want

to sexually assault me. Some people just

wanted to beat the hell out of me. So

not all of them. They got to do whatever

they wanted, but with all of the

different people that included some sort

of physical assault, physical and sexual

assault. Anyhow, uh just the physical.

There weren't any instances of just

sexual assault. It was uh it was it was

causing damage to me and and at towards

the end of it I can remember my dad

saying he can't take anymore and die.

>> Yeah.

>> And you know at that point he had like

drugged me because I couldn't walk or

anything to one of the nights and they

said if if he can't take anymore it's

not over with. you're gonna take the

rest of it. And he said, "Fine

because I'm gonna go to jail any

killing."

So they beat the absolute hell out of

Hans.

>> Okay. I I can remember my dad kind of

carried me away from the last like group

of people and I think he had to change

or something for me and

it probably like at 30 minutes or

something, but I finally got

enough I could breathe and everything

um to where I I walked out of there with

help

>> and Then is that when they took you to

Andy Biggs where Andy Biggs tortured and

raped you

>> immediately thereafter and not

immediately thereafter but uh another

week or two passed maybe maybe a month

two whatever was healed as far as my

uh most of my bruises and and stuff like

that from from first incident by the

time I went to Andy Bigs and of The

physical assaults

is the worst. He kept beating me until

my ribs broken. I started blue

convulsion.

You get beaten enough. As you try to

breathe, you just kind of click. I I

can't describe it any other way than

that. It's not even a week or anything,

but your your like diaphragm or

something walks up and you just start

clicking. Um,

>> some people call it like the death

rattle.

>> Yeah.

>> That's night to where when I would try

to breathe my my chest would just make

this clicking noise.

>> I don't know how to describe.

>> No, no, you described that extremely

extremely clearly. I like I say, I

appreciate your forthrightness. Now, you

and I had spoken and um you said that

your dad told you that after the

incident with Andy Biggs that that your

dad said that Trump and Trump's

associates said that whatever debt they

thought you owed because you fought back

against Trump that the debt was paid and

the debt was you getting raped and

beaten brutally

>> by all those individuals including Andy

Biggs.

Yes.

>> And then you said that you don't recall

attending any more parties after that

and you were cher was because they

thought you aged out cuz you were 12 or

13 or whether they just thought you were

much

too much of a hassle like they could get

caught.

>> I think all of that came into play. Yes.

>> Or they might wanted to behave indicted

towards your dad about whatever money

your dad was earning.

Do you think

>> I could see

that court I Yeah, I'm not I'm not even

sure like the financial arrangements or

anything like that. I remember

>> that when they sent me to the brothel,

but they were upset that they didn't

make me any money. And then I can

remember Lynn being absolutely furious

because they were gonna get this big

payday for doing the child porn in

Tennessee, but they wound up losing

money on the deal because they got

stiffed by whoever uh bought the film

when it was when it was done and

they had to spend I think some money on

a lawyer. So it was a net loss for them.

Uhhuh.

>> But it was something to do with like the

the film wasn't as long as what they

they uh agreed to pay money for. So they

they didn't they didn't make as much and

you know

>> but the films

>> remember being

>> okay

>> and and the filming most of the filming

the parties was all associated with

Trump and the Trump Epstein just laying

pedophile ray different layers of

parties

>> but it's a it's a whole bunch of people

it's just

>> from my childhood perspective

what I saw or what I thought that I saw

was he was the big boss. Donald John

Donald Trump was the big boss and then

Epstein was

like like you said like like the manager

or something and then you had lower

level people like my dad that kind of

went out and found girls or coordinated

um you know at the ground level of Yeah.

of things.

>> Yeah. So in terms of

>> scheme in itself,

>> I just sought out people like my dad

that would help, you know, their adopted

child, their actual child or whatever.

So those are the different layers of of

people.

>> Yeah.

But that Trump was involved in a lot of

the planning,

micromanaging,

filming,

>> certainly the payouts.

>> Yeah. because I know that when

uh I was offered to Trump, the the

excitement that that was in the house

from Lynn particularly was that this is

going to be the big payday. you know, we

have made it up to the the highest level

of this thing, so to speak,

>> because they would they would sell me at

a lower level

uh to people that they knew, you know,

not this is outside of the parties, but

obviously they don't have the type of

money that these rich folks have. So,

that wasn't really a big payday. and

they were nervous about taking that kind

of money because they weren't accepting

uh this large amount of risk for very

little amount of fun and they were

excited to make it to the level of

Donald Trump because I think the payday

that they were supposed to get was

$25,000

>> may have been another sum but that's

just the sum that I remember and that

may not sound like a lot especially

today but yeah our

less standard of living that would have

been a fairly child combined.

>> And you so and we spoke about in terms

of the years when you were about 9 to 10

years old, maybe 8 years old until about

13

and most of the parties there were only

three or four kids there. Um sometimes

only you.

>> Yes. And it was this sort of the

different

>> Yeah.

>> And they would almost always have at

least one girl there. So the I I'm sure

that the the uh the mentality of that

would be, you know, to have a boy or a

girl to choose from. Um

and there may have been children at

these parties that were in attendance

that I just didn't see.

>> Yeah. because I was being abused, you

know, in in like a a bedroom of the

farmhouse or some other location and

there could have been more people there.

I can't, you know, I can't really say

exactly.

>> True.

>> You get kind of just just from a

standpoint of of of the experience, you

you'll very much just kind of look lock

on to your surroundings

to try to stay alive. you know, you're

looking at the person that you're having

this encounter with. Um, anything that

you could potentially use for a weapon,

escape paths, and stuff like that. Um,

very much you're in survival mode. So,

>> you tend to hyperfocus on just what's

immediately around you. So, there may

have been additional things going on,

but I I really wasn't paying attention

to those.

>> Okay.

Okay. Okay. And we spoke about the

average age was like 9 or 10 years old

in some cases. Um layers of parties,

>> adult prostitutes were there too. So

>> the younger end is 910 all the way up to

uh you know young ladies

17, 18, 19, 20 year olds, you know.

>> And did you ever see Andy Big sexually

assault and torture anyone else

>> or No.

>> No. Not that I can recall. No.

>> And what about Jim Jordan?

>> You know, I remember him from that one

instance. I I'm not saying that he

wasn't at additional, but I only

remember him at the war. And I can

remember a bunch of people being there,

but to be honest with you, the rest of

them just kind of uh kind of meddled

together, you know,

>> that's a bunch of adults,

>> you know, um kind of a crowd of people.

The ones that I focused on, the ones

that I remember are the ones that seared

into my brain that this this person

could kill me next time.

>> Yeah. So, I need to I need to remember

this type of type of deal. And that's

that's I'm sorry.

>> Yeah. And then Trump during all those

years. Now, did you ever see Clarence

Thomas more than once or Lindsey Graham?

>> I could have, but I only remembered

Lindsay because his mannerisms,

particularly when he's not in the public

spotlight, are very effeminite.

>> Yeah. though, uh, that stood out to me

and Clarence stood out to me and and I

only remember them seeing them at one of

those parties before anything happened.

So, I'm not saying that they were

necessarily involved in abuse. They

could have been. They could have even

been involved in abuse that included me.

I just can't swear to that. But,

>> uh, he stood out because of his

mannerisms being so affeminite. I

believe the people that I was around, my

my dad and whoever he was talking to at

the time uh joking and laughing about

those uh mannerisms and then uh I

remember Clarence because he he's black

man. Not only is he a black man, but

he's kind of a dark-skinned black man.

So in that group of people, he stood out

uh a lot because he was the only black

guy there.

>> Okay. And then in terms of um we talked

about transportation,

plane, airplane, helicopter, automobile.

Uh

>> you said there was usually only there

weren't a lot of folks on the plane.

Maybe sometimes three or four other

kids,

sometimes you, just you, whichever

adults on the plane. When um

with the snuff movies, were any of those

shot on the farm that you remember or

those were you said were at different

locations?

>> Those were at different locations. Um

>> and how many folks did you see killed in

the snuff movies that that you saw

filmed

>> that that was filmed?

>> Yeah,

>> I'm sure 100%. I only remember that one.

>> Yeah.

>> Now, if they filmed Patricia being shot,

that would be two.

>> Okay.

>> But the other one was on on like what

you would think of as a a movie set.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh you know, probably probably just a

warehouse, somebody's basement. I I I

couldn't tell you the location, but it

was it wasn't just a a handheld uh you

know, VHS camcorder. It was something on

a tripod with lights and things like

that. and we were having sex and

somebody walked in and just shot her in

the head and I don't remember her name.

>> So it was a similar MO as with Patricia.

>> Yes, but there was no additional assault

to me afterwards. But yes, it was

similar to what happened there.

>> Um other than with Patricia, they busted

in. It was however many of them there

was about a half a dozen. And I had to

stand there and watch kind of like I had

to with the puppies while they abused

her first and then shot her.

>> Did Patricia say anything to you before

Patricia was shot? Do you remember

anything? Did Patricia say anything all

during the the the assault?

>> I can remember her asking to just die.

Please just kill me. And I can remember

telling Patricia because this is what

Samantha had said to Sarah before um

Samantha shot her was, "You're going to

come be with me now. I love you." And

then she shot her. So I said the same

thing to Patricia.

MMA

there. There really aren't any English

language words that convey, you know,

I'm I'm glad that you found each other,

that you found some way that you could

find some sort of friendship in such

harrowing circumstances.

I'm so sad,

but you know, I don't I don't sweet,

sweet little girl, you know, and that's

what these people are. And

>> this this forum does not mean that.

>> Yeah.

Do you have a sense that that Trump and

those perpetrators would specifically

try to look for

children they thought were really

innocent to torture like the puppies?

>> Oh yeah. But

>> like the more innocent they wanted to

torture them more.

>> Yes. It was about the the experience to

them didn't seem to be all that sexual

in nature. It was about taking a

uh bright little energetic youth and

then just destroying

that person.

Even if not physically necessarily, but

psychologically and emotionally

like like

to the point where they they just really

were like traumatized to life.

>> Uhhuh.

>> That was that was what they seem to

enjoy doing.

>> Yeah.

>> My mother, Mary Riley, was of the exact

same personality flaws that those rich

people were. And as bad as my dad is and

and as far as human beings go, I would I

would

>> I would say that he's just about a

failure in every way.

He wasn't even that bad.

>> There was just some semblance of

conscious with him. Like I can remember

at that party him just about breaking

down into tears because it was affecting

emotionally to see me take that level of

punishment or abuse or whatever.

>> So Lynn would have Lynn was a type of

personal she would have smiled and

laughed and had a really good time.

That's who was and that's who Donald

Trump is and that's how Annie is.

>> Those three are like the last level of

human as far as depravity goes. I mean

there's there's nothing in the way of

watching another person suffer that they

didn't seem to enjoy would be the best

way to put it. So it' be similar sort of

psychopathy as uh John Wayne Gayy

Trump.

>> Yeah. I I Yeah.