How to Win Sales Without Pitching: Blair Enns' Expert Selling Strategies

[music]

Okay team, this week we are very lucky.

I've got a guy, very clever dude by the

name of Blair Ends. I've been very

privileged to be coached by Blair over

the years. I've been a big follower of

his. Blair uh runs a sales training

company that specifically trains the

creative industry and creative

professionals. Blair is Canadian, which

as New Zealanders, we we love that

already. and he lives in a village, not

a town, called Caslo in British

Columbia. And we've just worked out that

his nearest airport is 321 km away cuz

he has to go over some mountain ranges.

And I looked Blair at Wikipedia because

I'd need to be really diligent as a

student. And I went, "Wow, the

population where you live was 1,049

people as of 2021 in Wikipedia. And

that's increase of 8.4% from 96." So you

guys go into four digits now.

>> [laughter]

>> I don't believe it. It doesn't feel It

doesn't feel like we're a thousand

people.

>> And And you're famous for your sourdough

or have I got that wrong? Is

>> famous for my sourdough? I don't know

where you got

>> Can we make that up? Should we make that

up? This is like folk law.

>> Sure. Yeah. I did go through during

COVID, like a lot of people, I went

through a bread making phase even though

I largely don't eat bread.

>> Yes.

>> I went through a period of

>> eating making a lot of bread.

>> Good. Uh, we also share a common

interest in open water swimming,

although I think the lakes that Blair

swims in are probably a little bit

colder than the ones in New Zealand

here. Um, so Blair is really, really

good, guys. You're in for a real treat.

Blair, welcome to the show. So lovely to

have you here.

>> Thank you, Sing. My pleasure to be here.

>> Okay, so give people a little bit of a

rundown on you and I are similar but

different. We've come from an ad agency

background, strategic planning, business

development, ad agency world. Um, could

you give people a quick sort of summary

of who you are and what you do and where

you are and how you got to where you are

now?

>> Sure. I'm the founder of Win Without

Pitching, which is a sales training

organization. Started out as a solo

consulting practice back in 2002. So,

we're approaching 23 years old. About

half of that time, I was a consultant

and then for the second half, I've kind

of scaled the business up a little bit

to be a training organization. Our

historical audience has always been what

I call creative professionals. So those

in the advertising and design

professions typically the name the word

pitch or pitching has a special meaning.

It's not just a sales pitch. In the

creative professions a pitch is to in

the sale to pitch the idea to give the

highest value product the thinking away

for free in hopes that you'll be hired

to implement the business. So, I

launched Win Without Pitching as a way

to move my small family to this remote

mountain village. Over the years, I've

written three books. Over the years, our

audience has naturally broadened out

beyond creative professionals. And now,

we characterize the audience as anybody

who's an expert advisor or practitioner

first and a salesperson second. So the

line is we teach experts how to sell and

price like the experts they are rather

than the transactional salespeople that

they're not.

>> Yeah. Love it. Listeners, have you

noticed how eloquent and how succinct

Blair is already? I've learned a lot

from this fellow. So we are very very

lucky to have him on. Blair, let's get

straight into it because with our rural

listeners, you know, and we've you and I

have had chats before, they're feed

reps, their third reps. They could be

where you are or Alberta or Saskatchewan

or Australia, New Zealand, UK, wherever

feed reps. They don't sell supposedly

expertise. Sometimes they're selling

what is perceived and they're, you know,

they're pretty pretty tough uh by some

price taking therefore price buying

farmers. So what's your thoughts on the

whole concept of commodities and how

what would be in your wisdom a way to

sometimes combat some of that sort of um

perception? So last week I did a talk to

750 uh plumbers and HVAC technicians. Um

when I was invited every once in a while

I I get invited to speak to an audience

that's really if you if you think of you

know I I call them experts let's call

them professionals largely like a broad

term of professionals.

So what is it about? My first reaction

is okay plumbers and HVAC techs. Um

they could see themselves as experts or

they could see themselves as sellers of

commodified services. And really if you

talk to them individually some will be

in one camp and some will be in the

other. At the end of the day, they're

all in the same business, but their

perception of their business, what

they're selling, and even how they add

or don't add value in the sale differs

from person to person. So, I really

think at the end of the day,

[snorts and clears throat] you are a

seller of expertise if you believe you

are, and you're a seller of a commodity

if you believe you are. Now, a friend of

mine wrote a great book called The

Growth Leader. Um and and he says that

your sales call should be so good that

your clients would be willing to pay for

it. [snorts] And I think that is a

wonderful ideal to strive to. So it kind

of begs the question, how are you adding

value in the sale? And we can tie that

pretty directly to are you showing up as

a vendor or are you showing up as the

expert?

>> I love that. I love that. I always say

to my students, my rural students that

if you sell the same, you're treated the

same. And if you sell like a commodity,

you're treated like a commodity. So

there's a lot of mindset in there, isn't

there?

>> Mhm.

>> And positioning. Can we could we unpack

that a little bit?

>> Yeah. I mean, I think at the end of the

day, it's like we're we're a lot of it

does come down to mindset. And in my

latest book, one of the principles I

talk about is the expert's mindset. And

it begs the question, so like you, I run

a sales training organization, and we

like you, I'm sure, we we

[clears throat] teach people some

frameworks like here's how you handle

these certain situations.

And some people when they when they

experience the frameworks when they hear

them for the first time they naturally

gravitate to them. It feels natural to

them.

And to some they try them on and they

think I can't imagine myself doing that

or saying that. And that's because

they're they have more of a vendor

mindset [snorts] than an expert mindset.

There are people who just go, "Yeah, I

can do that. I can say that. That makes

perfect sense to me." So you have these

frameworks that we layer over top of

kind of a pattern of general behavior

and I'll generalize and say the behavior

is either that of the expert or it's

that of a vendor. The frameworks will

not sit well with you if the general

pattern of behavior

that you've been kind of demonstrating

and how you've been showing up is that

of the vendor. So, how do you change?

How do you stop yourself from acting

like the vendor and begin to act like

the expert and just show up like the

expert in the sale? And it starts with

that word that you used, which is

mindset. It starts with the thoughts

that are in your own head. So, we have a

expert's mantra that we have people

repeat to themselves

>> before a sale so that they can get

themselves into that expert's mindset.

>> Very good. So I have some companies that

do like irrigation set up irrigation

systems with dairy farms or aronomous

you know certified crop advisor you call

them up in your world

>> and what they do is they do the plans

they give the plans and then the farmer

goes and shops and uses the cheaper

installer

>> or they do the agonomic program or the

irrigation plan and they say oh thanks

very much and off we go. What would be

your advice to uh stop that?

Well, without knowing anything about the

business, about [clears throat]

um the agricultural business, even

though I grew up in a prairie province,

I worked in ad agencies on accounts like

CN Rail, which is all agriculture. My

wife comes from Good Farming Stock, so I

should know more about this than the

business than I do. Even though I don't

know much about the business, my first

reaction, what I'm hearing you say is in

the sale, the salesperson is doing a

whole bunch of valuable work for free

and giving it away for free.

>> Correct.

>> So, you could charge for that. You could

you could do a formal diagnostic, you

could charge for that. If the if the

customer buys from you, you could wave

that or roll that fee up into the into

the purchase where effectively it gets

waved. That's that's just one way to

think about it. That's my first

reaction. What's your reaction to that?

Is this a business where you can charge

for that or everybody's giving it away

for free and you can't monetize it?

>> Uh the reason I ask it's a real scenario

and I would have exactly the same

answer. I'd say well if you do go this

you get it waved. But what you do is you

separate you know the the strategy the

thinking from the doing. And you know

obviously then we talk about maybe the

translation of those two things dropping

between the stools because obviously the

thinking and the design is heavily

correlated to the successful

installation. And I might talk about my

favorite friend loss aversion in terms

of if a few things go skew with and we

don't quite translate that there might

be some risk that maybe the farmer

hasn't recognized and I'd have that

conversation with them. But you talked

about um this wonderful quote from um

former CEO of Netscape, Jim. There are

only two ways to make money in business,

bundling and unbundling. Talk to us

about bundling and unbundling as you

said because I think that is a really

beautiful tool potentially for helping

them differentiate.

>> Yeah. So you're a customer, you're

selling multiple things to your

customer. Customers going to want to see

a line item for everything. And I don't

mean just the products you're selling.

You could also think of the services

that you might be able to add on top of

that, some advisory just being available

to them, etc. Maybe you see that as

standard, everybody gets it, but maybe

it doesn't have to be standard. Maybe

there's some sort of advisory bundle

that you can add to that. But I always

love the mobile phone industry because

is there a more commodified business

than your mobile plan? So you would

think because it's so highly commodified

that these would not be profitable

businesses, but they are highly

profitable businesses. And the reason

they are highly profitable businesses is

they all live by the same motto when it

comes to your bill, your monthly bill.

And that is make it easy to understand

and impossible to compare.

[snorts] So how do they do that? They

constantly change the bundles. So in

Canada many years ago when I first

became aware of this, they would change

the bundles once a month and then they

moved up to once a week and then they

started changing the bundles every

day. Now they changed the bundles

multiple times a day. So if you get your

plan from your current provider and you

go to shop it against a competitor,

you will never find an applesto apples

comparison where with the same amount of

data, the same amount of talk minutes,

the same amount of text, the same amount

of long distance, whatever they're um

whatever they're building bundling into

the plan. those the components of those

bundles are always changing and they're

making sure that their bundle never

directly matches their competitor's

bundles and that's how they maintain

such high margin. As soon as you go full

alakart

it allows the client to pick apart. It's

it's the same thing in cable bundles.

>> Same with one channel you really want

and you're getting the other 30 because

they're bundled together.

>> Yeah, 100%. I've seen that like we just

chucked some solar in and I was trying

to get fiber, you know, internet with

gas with electricity and oh my goodness.

It was a cluster. Like I I couldn't even

begin to compare. So perfect, perfect,

perfect. Uh

>> one more quick one. If you're a pub

owner and you want to sell Guinness, now

owned by Diagio, you have to carry all

these other Dagio brands. In fact, you

might even have to be exclusively Dagio

to to carry Guinness. So just another

example of bundling.

>> Yeah. So I think your challenge to the

listeners is there work out what is

something that you can do that has

superior value or high perceived

expertise and you that becomes in the

bundle. It's like when my guys say yeah

but we can't get them to buy this type

of seed but we've only got a certain

amount of this seed. I said well in

order to get that seed you can have to

take the some of that seed and that's

worth treat for them.

>> Yeah. A portfolio.

>> Yes. Exactly right Blair. Now, pricing

guidance. Tell us about your views on

offering pricing guidance cuz a lot of

my guys are scaredy-cats, you know,

like, oh, I can't I can't say the price

and or the farmer says, how much is it,

you know, for a ton of ura or, you know,

how much is it for glyophate, god

forbid, or whatever they're asking for

and they sort of they're like a pricing

desk, like a machine pricing desk, and I

teach them not to do that, but this is

your your gig, not mine. What's your

philosophy on offering pricing guidance

early? Could you unpack that for people?

I'm very aware of your model, but I

think for those that don't know you,

could you take them through that?

>> I I used to think and I probably even

been taught it for a few years that when

in price negotiating, he who speaks

first loses. And now I the science is

pretty clear that the opposite is true.

So, um you shouldn't be frustrated by a

client's request to talk about price. If

they say how much for X, what you want

to do is you want to embrace this

principle known as anchoring, the

anchoring effect or anchoring and

adjusting. [snorts] And you you want to

start you want to offer a range

depending on variables.

And you want to start on on the high end

of the range. In fact, you want the high

end of the range to be so high that

you're looking for a visible reaction

from the customer. So on the high end,

it might be X and it might be X per

acre. I don't know how your business

works, but whatever X is. So, you would

think of your

your business most elaborate, most needy

customer who pays you the most money,

right? And you you translate it and say,

"Well, we have some customers who pay us

X per acre or whatever the metric is,

whatever the unit is." [snorts]

Pause. Two, three, four. Let the big

number sink in. [clears throat] And on

the low end, it might might be as much

as y. So ideally, you have as big a

range as you can possibly conceive of.

And now you've spoken first. You've

anchored at the high end. And that first

price,

that anchor

is it's the metaphor I use is it's like

the moon hanging in the sky pulling

toward the tide. That is the average

price, the average settled price. And if

you don't anchor high, your customer is

going to anchor low. So you anchor with

a really big number. You let your client

react to it. You might to set the low

end of the range. You might say, "Well,

[snorts] what were you hoping to spend?"

They might give you a price and you can

say, "Well, yeah, we might be able to do

something in that range." Now, you have

a range. Now, if the client has reacted

to the top end of the range and they

say, "There's no way I'm paying that,"

or, "There's no way I would ever pay

that, or that's way too expensive," you

can let them lower that range. Well,

what would you pay? what in the in the

best case scenario, what kind of

investment do you think it makes sense

to make? So, let them lower the range

and depending on how you know the

variance you have in the range, you

might be able to like they might be able

to cut that in half and you still have a

good number to work with. So, that's a

much more effective approach, especially

over multiple deals, multiple sales

calls. You will have a bad a better

average settled price if you speak

first. You offer a range and you start

with the high end of the range, let the

client set the low end of the range and

let them adjust the high end. Um, I

would uh in more uh gerography terms

call it a decoy. And I would say, and

now I'm going to be rural in my in my

language, Blair, I would want to be

almost myself when I'm putting

that big price number in the premium

versus a stand in the basic.

I think if people want to understand

that more, I think they need to reach

out to you and and and grab hold of

those. But so when it comes to selling,

we just touched upon around how you turn

up and how you show up and your

conviction and your confidence. Can you

talk to people around

the art of the conversation? because

your latest book, The Four

Conversations, which I recommend

everyone goes and buys a copy of

there's a very important there's an arc

of those conversations. Can you run

through that quickly and then maybe we

could emphasize the value conversation

because where my beloved guys and girls,

my people get beaten up really hard is

by price taking farmers who ultimately

and naturally become very price buying.

So could you take them through the

through the conversations and and that

arc?

>> Yeah. So this is a model, a view of the

world. And as I say early in the book,

all models are wrong. Some are useful.

That's those aren't my words. It's a

quote from somebody who's famous for

essentially just that quote.

[clears throat] So and the model is this

idea that we view the sale of expertise

as a series of four linear and discrete

conversations. They're orderly. They

follow each other. They're all neatly

contained. But the reality is that's not

always what's happened. That's not

that's not always what happens. The

conversations however are the

probitative conversation where the

objective is to prove your expertise to

the client and the customer and move in

their mind from this powerless position

of just another vendor to the position

of the expert. Now the probative

conversation is the conversation that

happens without you present. It's really

about your reputation preceding you. So

let's set that one aside.

[clears throat]

The second conversation and the first

persontoperson conversation is a

qualifying conversation. This is where

you're vetting the lead to determine if

an opportunity exists. A qualifying

conversation to to the listeners is

going to be pretty quick. You're going

to know pretty quickly. You can judge

based on the size of the farm, some

other basic criteria whether or not this

is a pretty good fit. [clears throat]

There might be a decision maker element

there that you've got to spend some time

on, but even things around time frame

and intent that you would uncover in a

qualifying conversation, you can move

that through that pretty quickly. The

third conversation is the uh value

conversation. It's also my favorite too,

Singen. uh the value conversation,

you're endeavoring to determine how much

value that you can help to create and

then the share of that value that you

might command in terms of your price.

[snorts] So, you'd be doing some

calculations with the customer about the

acreage, the yield, the return on

investment of whatever it is you're

selling, whether it's seed or herbicide,

whatever it is. And then you're setting

pricing guidance based on that number.

and and you're using a technique similar

to what we just modeled, which is throw

out a range, start with the high number.

If the client insists on lowering the

high number, let them lower it. Lower

it. Ask them if they had the budget at

the low end of what they would like to

be able to see if you can do for that

number. And now you've got a range. And

then the fourth conversation is the

closing conversation where you put

forward options. Now in some more

traditional business of businesses of

expertise like design firms, ad

agencies, consulting firms, there's

often a gap between the value

conversation and the closing

conversation where you go away and write

the proposal. And maybe there is for the

listener, [snorts] maybe there isn't.

Maybe you can close right in this

conversation.

So the objective of the closing

conversation is to transition seamlessly

from the sale to the engagement. It's

helped the client choose a path forward.

Basically implied in that is the idea

that your solutions, your proposal

should contain options, more than one

way to do this.

There's you're putting forward more than

one ways that you might help your

customer

>> at more than one price point. And we can

get into the science of it, but the best

number of options to put forward is

three. Four is also fine.

Two is good, but if you use three, your

average deal value will go up.

>> Correct.

You Blair, just to make you shudder with

the millions of dollars that are lost,

millions. I'd say tens, maybe even

hundreds. You will not believe how many

rural clients when I do proposal

breakdowns with them, they only present

one price. M

>> and

>> it is the lowest hanging fruit on the

sales tree is to go from one option

proposals to three. Your closing ratio

goes up, your average proposal value

goes up.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Guys, listen to what he's

saying. This is a sales call you must

want to be paying for. As we talked

about earlier on the call, this is very,

very good advice. If you want to suffer

and struggle, just ignore everything

that Blair is telling you. Now, most

sales reps do actually create their own

suffering and struggling as well. No, I

always say that basically closing

problems are actually opening problems,

but that maybe that's a story for

another day.

>> Um,

>> I agree with you.

>> Yeah, thank you. Talk to me about

premature proposals and how you avoid

people because sometimes farmers, you

know, they're rough and tough and they

they're very important to us, but

they're they're hard they're hard task

masters. They're hard to deal with. They

just go, "Oh, send me a quote. Send me a

proposal.

>> [snorts]

>> I love that line, the request for an

early proposal and my responses. I have

some I don't believe in scripts, but I

do have set pieces.

>> Please,

>> set sentences that just I hear the

>> I'm so looking forward to hearing these

because the listeners are getting as

real juice here.

>> I'd be happy to send you a proposal if

it makes sense to do so. Let me ask you

a few more questions.

>> Yeah. [snorts]

>> All right. So, you get it. It's like

this is too early. This is a brush off.

Yeah. Yeah. be happy to do that if it

makes it. We think as sales people when

we're asked for a proposal, it's our job

and we have to comply or we think that

if we do our job is to write proposals

and the more proposals we write, the

more deals will close. Those two things

don't correlate super closely and

[snorts] they do create a lot of work

for you. And it's not, you know, you if

you've done this long enough, you know,

when the the farmer, the customer says,

"Yeah, send me a proposal." You know,

when it's a brush,

>> spidey sense. I always say to my

students, quotes don't qualify.

>> I always,

>> oh, that's a good one. Yeah.

>> I And you know, I Yes, I do have scripts

as long as they don't sound scripted,

right? Because it's all about the intent

from where you come from when you

deliver it. But, you know, whether

you're learning your lines and letting

them land or whatever else is, I think

it's really important that we don't send

you a shoddy or shabby proposal that's

wasting your time and mine. And I think

I think I think even you taught me that

or someone clever like you taught me

that. But, you know, uh they they're

such eager beavers and they haven't got

enough leads. And then if the listeners

are picking up what you're putting down,

the provative conversation or I would

call it maybe the positioning

conversation like first arc for me in

layman's terms is is show them how good

you are before you even meet them. And

so this is why Blair has an outstanding

podcast guys you need to listen to

called Two Bobs. And the banter between

you and your your mly friend David C.

Baker is very entertaining I might add.

You have you make me laugh which is

good. So, two bobs. We'll put it in the

thing. But Blair, you know, he's written

three best-selling books. And what he's

taught me along with other lots of

wonderful coaches that I've been

privileged to work with and and learn

from is the importance of pre-ell

positioning. And so, I think what

happens is in and because we're

marketing ex ad agency guys as well,

Blair, this this integration between

marketing and sales should be seamless.

And I like them centralized, not

decentralized because, you know, the

pre-sale positioning does all the heavy

lifting for you and the

pre-qualification for you. And I'm not

talking about funnels and nurturing and

forms and all that kind of stuff. What's

your thoughts on that around because I I

think rural companies really neglect and

miss a massive opportunity where they

don't sync sales and marketing to

because marketing you know you know the

old adage the sales guys go oh you're

the guys that spend all the money and

we're the guys that make the money and

it's like Tom and Jerry cat and mouse

and it's actually quite tough. we

generate you the leads and you don't

close the leads,

>> you know, and on it goes. And I mean,

honestly, I can just predict it and I

talk about in our weekly emails, but

that pre-sale positioning, what would

you say to that? Tell the listeners

about how important it is that you get

your marketing set up to help your sales

team.

>> Yeah. And the challenge with sales

people is like it's um this

conversation, what I call the

probitative conversation where you prove

your expertise and you move in the mind

of the customer from a vendor to the

expert. It's hard to do. That is a

function of your reputation preceding

you. So that can be done through word of

mouth, through your very best customers

saying good things about you and your

products. It can be done through the

marketing you do online. And I don't

know the the agro business enough to

know what the best avenues for building

reputation are.

>> Farmers, that's what it is.

>> At the farmer level,

>> you farmers believe other farmers. They

listen to their neighbors. They don't

watch the data visualization, the eye

candy, the trials and everything else.

It's like what's Bill doing?

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, that's a tough one

because how do you do that? You that's

that's just that's you have to build

that reputation over time.

>> Not just your product, but you and how

you stand behind the product and when

there's trouble,

>> they reach out to you and you step in.

That's an interesting thing we don't

talk about enough is [clears throat]

like how how brands and not so much

brands, but how loyalty is built.

>> Yeah. in I think it was in my first

book, maybe it wasn't, maybe it the

first book that I don't talk about, so

I've really written four.

[clears throat]

[snorts] Um, and I may have written

about this in pricing creativity. In one

of the books I wrote, I told the story

of the Marriott Corporation in the 80s.

They did a study to determine um which

of their customers were the most loyal.

And their theory going into the study

was they would it would clearly show

that customers that had a flawless stay

would be the most loyal. And that's not

what their research found.

>> What they found was the most loyal

customers were the customers who had a

problem with their stay, who brought

that problem to the attention of

somebody uh in the property and had it

promptly resolved to their satisfaction.

So loyalty comes from

solving problems after the sale. You can

only solve problems after the sale. You

will empower yourself to do so if you

have enough margin in the deal. [snorts]

Now, I often say to my ad agency

clients,

I could sit in your office and I could

watch you answer your phone and I could

tell from your facial reaction as soon

as you looked down and saw the number on

the ringing phone. I [snorts] could tell

who your most profitable and loyal

clients are and who your least

profitable and least lo loyal clients

are. And these two things go hand in

hand. So [snorts] profitable profit

drives loyalty. So gross margin drives

loyalty. It's not the other way around.

It's not that your most loyal clients

are your most profitable. Your most

profitable ones are your most loyal

because you take some of that profit

[clears throat] and you help them when

they need help.

>> Correct?

>> You're there to help them navigate

through the problem. And if you don't

have enough margin in the deal [snorts]

and the customer has a problem and they

reach out to you, you think, "Oh, who's

I don't have time for that. You ground

me down to that stupid price and you fix

it yourself."

>> Yeah. Sellers remorse.

>> Sellers remorse. So margin drives

loyalty.

>> Yeah, understand. Like with my machinery

guys when they sell headers or tractors

or whatever else, it's not actually the

sale. I mean we run a lot of farming

groups and farming panels and customer

experience and buy journey or have done

in the past. And I say what's the most

important part of that sales process?

What do you think the answer is?

>> After sales service

>> bang on first follow-up. How's that

machine going? Is it doing everything

it's supposed to be doing? I just want

to check. And it's that almost pastoral

care, that duty of care. And it's that

Mayor Angelou quote. They don't care how

much you know till they know how much

you care.

>> And is huge in farming. And the thing

that people don't understand with

selling to farmers is the risk of them

making a bad decision is so high because

they have to wake up every day, man or

woman, and see that thing or see that

crop or see that animal. It's not like a

CMO or CTO where they scoot in and out

every 18 months, two months. They live

with that decision. So the the the risk

profile is so much higher and people

don't understand that. But

>> highest risk entrepreneurs, among the

highest risk entrepreneurs out there,

very very personal. It reminds me a lot

of financial planning. So we do some

work with financial advisors.

>> They get a customer, they're with them

for life, and they take care of them.

That is a long-term relationship. I

imagine it's the same thing in your

business. And when you disappoint

>> that person, you're done. Like they have

moved on.

>> If if you close on the bank and you

don't give them the funding as a dairy

farmer, they will ban you for not just

families, generations, and you won't get

a look in. Like they are savage on you.

Why do you think most salespeople

struggle and suffer?

>> So my most recent book is about

conversations, about viewing the sale as

a series of conversations. And I'm fond

of saying you're all very like to a

training group. I'm leading a workshop

next week. I'll say this line. You're

all very good conversationalists. You

would not be here. You would not be

successful in business. You would not be

in this workshop if that were not true.

But there's something about a sales

conversation where the dynamics are

different and we tend to lose or fumble

our most basic abilities to communicate.

What happens is we get these ideas of

what it means to sell. We think it's our

job to talk somebody into something and

we transmit more than we receive. We're

beaming information at them. The client

can sense this. Trust drops and we

destroy the natural two and fro give and

take open honest two-way communication

that is characteristic of a

conversation.

>> So even though we think we're

conversing, it's really brief and

present. We're pitching our stuff to the

client.

>> Yeah.

>> They're withholding some honest

information. Sometimes

>> if they think we're trying to convince

them of something,

>> they quit giving us honest information

back. As soon as you go, I'm fond of

saying you can present to people or you

can be present to them. You cannot do

both. So, you have to decide. As soon as

you go into presentation mode, I imagine

that there's this invisible wall that

goes up between you and the customer.

>> And that is the wall that keeps honest

information from coming back to you.

What a great metaphor. I think when

you're more interested in serving your

needs rather than your client, this is

where you come unstuck. I think

assumption is a real killer of sales as

well. We've also tal we touched on it

before in some of our training around

the discipline of detachment.

>> And then can you Blair talk to me about

the formula of your wanting of the

client less than their desire of you?

Can you remember the formula?

>> P equals DB over D.

>> That's right. [snorts] Can you um spell

that out for people? That's the first

principle of selling expertise. P= DB

over D. So P is power. Your power in the

sale is a function of your

desiraability. DB, how badly the

customer wants your product or an

engagement with you over your desire. D,

how badly you want to do business with

this customer. Otherwise stated, whoever

wants it the most has the least power.

So I consider that the first principle

of selling expertise and again coming

out of the ad agency business. The way I

was never taught to sell really but it

was modeled for me. What was modeled was

give all your power away in the sale by

leaning on passion and enthusiasm and

saying I really really really really I'm

really passionate about your brand. I

really really want this business.

>> Oh my favorite word which makes me very

nauseous. We're so excited.

>> Yeah.

>> Or [laughter] and I always say someone

told me, I can't remember who it was,

but this they said enthusiasm doesn't

equal effectiveness.

>> Imagine you go in to see yourist and he

says, "I'm I'm really passionate about

your health. I'm so so so excited to

take care of you. I'm got the surgery

coming up. I'm so so excited. We are

>> starting to run for the door right now."

>> Yeah. It's a human

>> condition. We we are repulsed by

neediness. It's sad, but it's true. It's

unfortunate, but it's true.

>> So many of my reps create their own

suffering and struggling by not

prospecting and canvasing, not doing the

pre-positioning, probably to their

fairness and their credit, not getting

the true support from their marketing

because the marketing is not connecting

with the conversations those clients are

having in their own head. I mean, is it

Orin Clth? He talks about the power of

the frame. This is what Blair is talking

about.

>> Blair, can you talk about the power of

the frame in your own words? what that

means so people understand it.

>> Yeah. So Klaf's he didn't invent this

term but he's certainly popularized it.

It's the idea of frame control. So a

frame is a viewpoint on a social

interaction. And when I read this in

Klaf's book pitch anything which sounds

like the opposite of my book win without

pitching. I was really struck by this

framework this model. It's really I find

it fascinating. So what Claf says is two

different people come to a social

interaction. So let's think of a sale.

There's a buyer and a seller. Each

person has a frame a view of the

interaction. Now I will generalize and

say as a salesperson let's say there are

only two frames. One is I am the expert

I am the prize and the other is the

customer has the money they are the

prize. And what Claf says is and I'm

sure the science supports this is frames

do not play nice. At the end of the

interaction one frame will destroy the

other and both parties will have a

shared frame. They will both view, so

back to my generalization, they will

both view one of them as the prize to be

won in the relationship. And if you go

into that attitude with, well, they're

the customer, they have the money, I've

got to win this business, the client

knows it. That's communicated to the

client. Everybody understands that they

are the prize to be won. And if you win,

you will be lucky. Now, somebody who's a

really wellpositioned expert who has a

deep sense of confidence about their

ability to help and their ability to

create value is going to go in with an

opposite mindset. Their mindset, their

frame is going to be, I am the expert,

I'm the prize. And that's the first line

of our four-line mantra

that gets you into that expert mindset.

I am the expert. I am the prize. I'm on

a mission to help. I can only do that if

you let me lead. I accept that all will

not follow. back to your point about

detachment. [clears throat] So, I'm the

expert. I'm going to create value. If we

do business together, the client will be

lucky. I'll be lucky, too. But I want to

acknowledge that [clears throat] I have

something of value. And if we do

business together, this customer will be

better off.

>> Yeah.

>> So, gets you into that mindset and you

go into with that frame that you are the

prize to be won. Now, I'm generalizing.

>> You're either the expert or the prize or

the client is. It's probably truer that

these are end points on a spectrum

>> and you're trying to move the frame

towards your end of the spectrum.

>> Yeah, I agree. And it's really funny

when I talk to my clients, I would

rather them have better customers than

lots of customers.

>> Mhm.

And because that neediness, when I hear

the words, I just need to get in front

of more customers, those set off red

warning church bells for me, sirens of

you're just burning leads. What I wanted

to say is if the if your conversation

doesn't flow and it doesn't feel normal,

natural, you're doing it wrong. And this

is where Blair is teaching you guys and

he's taught me this is that there's a

real art to the conversation. And I

strongly recommend you get his book. The

other thing, Blair, I want to talk about

is that how do you handle objections? Do

you like to prevent them like me? And

sorry, just before I get there, just one

thing that you sparked on me is I always

say to my students, you got to sell slow

to sell fast and detach yourself from

the outcome and attach yourself to the

process. So

guys, please make sure you're listening

to what Blair is saying here about this

this conversational arc and the

qualification and the value and the fact

that if you actually do those things

right, you take all the pressure off the

closing because something very magical

happens, not all the time is the

customer magically closes themselves.

Blair, you know what I hate in my world?

I'm going to name them shame. Jeremy

Miner, Grant Cadone. Um, yeah, those

kind of guys. And there's always be

closing Um, and I just said, I

think you've got it completely wrong

because you don't even understand basic

human psychology and reactions theory

that people don't like thing being

things done to them. People don't like

being told, they like being asked. And

what you've taught me is the the power

of questions and conversation

and then eliciting and enrolling and not

repelling but attracting and inviting

the customer in. The power of questions

are so important, aren't they?

>> Yeah, it's it's so much to unpack there

and we're tying a lot together.

>> We are. We are.

>> But questions, questions, conversations.

>> Um the frameworks that we teach are

frameworks of the questions that you

ask. They're they're not so much

frameworks about things that you say.

Again, there are certain set pieces, but

some people do well with scripts. Some

people don't. They will sound scripted.

And I think I'm sure you do you agree

with this engine, but if you've got a

script, you look it's it's for your own

training. It's for your own learning.

So, the language becomes yours and then

you

>> guard rail. It's a guardrail. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Now, speaking to the gentleman

that you mentioned, I I don't know

I don't know about other worlds like

other domains in sales. I do know that

in a sale of expertise,

you cannot and this is going to be

particularly true

um

when you're selling to a grow when

you're selling to a farmer, you you

can't your sales techniques cannot leave

a wake of carnage because you don't if

you have a massive TAM total addressable

market

>> and the relationship is not important to

what it is that you're selling

>> then you can use the hard close

techniques all all day long.

>> Exactly.

>> But, you know, that's why I wrote this

book, The Four Conversations. The

subtitle is a new model for selling

expertise. And I I think it's like I

say, if you if you go into a coffee shop

and the barista is rude to you or the

clerk is rude to you, you don't

extrapolate from that to the quality of

the coffee. And it might not even be the

case when you're you're selling the

quality of the seed. But if you see

yourself as the expert, if you're

selling a relationship with yourself

where in addition to the product, you

are going to be there for your customer,

you're going to be available to answer

questions to help them to make future

decisions, then the way you sell has to

be representative of the way you're

going to show up once they are a

customer. So for that reason, the sale

is the sample and we can't always be

closing. To your point, you referenced

this earlier. [snorts]

So, I I have um in the model, it's four

conversations. We have a 12-h hour

workshop, three hours a day on Zoom,

roughly one conversation per day.

Everybody thinks that we're going to

spend the most time on the closing

conversation. We spend the least time on

the closing conversation.

>> To your point, engine, you handle the

previous conversations well, and you

said go slow to go fast.

>> They close themselves.

>> Yeah. Yeah. But the common mistake is

skip over all the important stuff.

>> Yeah.

>> And write that proposal because somebody

said, "Send me a proposal."

>> And then you keep following up on

somebody who's never going to buy.

>> 100%. And sunk fast sunk cost fallacy

and everything else. I always sort of

say that the closing should be the least

thing you do. It's the opening and how

you treat them and everything else. Last

two questions. I often in the commodity

market in rural mo I always ask my

students, what's the most important part

of the sales process? Go on Blair, I'm

going to ask you the question. What do

you think is the most important part of

the sales process?

>> Oh, I don't know. What's the most

important of the sales process? I think

it's probably the the thoughts that are

in your head and just the way you show

up. And I know that's a generalized

answer.

>> No, it's very close. It's you, the

salesperson.

>> Yeah.

>> I always say because in in rural market

to your point, relationships and a

limited TAM, a limited market, they are

buying into you before they buy into

everything else and how you make them

feel. when we talk about non-assumptive

selling and buyer safety. But Blair, I

want to make this really interesting for

you. Who has been the biggest influence

on you? Who is someone that has really

influenced you in in how you've got to

where you are?

>> There's a woman named Pauline Ali in

Vancouver, British Columbia. She taught

me the only sales training course I ever

took was from her and then I licensed

some material from her for the first few

years of my business. She got me to see

put some formal structure around selling

and she also introduced me to the idea

that pretty profound idea that buying is

changing and selling therefore is change

management.

>> Yeah. All decisions are about change.

Best sales books you've ever read?

[snorts]

>> I own all the sales books. I've read

very few of them cover to cover. I don't

like reading about sales. Sorry.

>> What do you like reading about?

>> I like bringing the outside in. So I've

written about selling. I've written

about pricing. For me to understand

pricing, I had to read the cannon of

literature. It's that's there's just

something about the topic that there is

a body of literature of science

>> and it's helpful to know it.

>> I write about selling from the point of

view of somebody who knows what bad

selling looks like because I've been on

the buying end of a lot of bad selling.

[snorts] So, for some reason, the way a

lot of sales books are written don't sit

well with me. But the one that I thought

was amazing, even though it was kind of

a cobbled together book was Mahan

Culsa's Let's Get Real or Let's Not

Play. Now, that book was really a series

of recordings that somebody transcribed

and you'll find different versions of it

in different places if you can find it,

but that book is the most

philosophically aligned with my my

books.

>> Yeah. Well said. And we're going to give

we're definitely going to point that

listeners to your books. Your podcast,

what the podcast you really listen to? I

know you're a big learning machine.

>> Oh, I think the best podcast out there

right now

um for business owners is called

Founders by David Senra. This is a

fairly young guy. He's under 40, I

think. Might [clears throat] be younger

than that. [snorts]

um who reads a biography of a founder,

somebody who's founded a successful

business once a week and then does a

podcast on it and he's just blown up.

And if I could only listen to one

podcast, it would be that. I also listen

to a bunch of podcasts from economists,

not because I'm particularly interested

in economics, but some of them are econ

talk. Russ Roberts is a very good

interviewer, broad subject matter and

conversations with Tyler Tyler Cowan.

He's a polymath. He's a genius on many

topics and fascinating to listen to.

>> There are many others as well, but those

jump to mind.

>> Of course. Of course. Last few

questions. What were some beliefs or

convictions you hold you held very

tightly or believed in when it came to

sales that you no longer believe in that

you've changed your mind and your

position on? It's everybody's job to

sell.

>> Tell me more.

>> Well, flip it around. Just ask yourself

the question as I did. What if it wasn't

everybody's job to sell? What would that

mean?

That would mean all these people out

there for whom selling is their second

job. Now, your audience, the these are

salespeople. It's their first job.

>> Yeah. [snorts] But there's a whole

universe of people out there who decided

they wanted to be something an engineer,

an architect, a designer, etc. Then at

some point they realized or they were

told, you want to do this job that

you're trained for? Well, there's a

second job. You kind of have to do it

first. You have to sell it. So I built a

business around helping those people.

But just as often I'll go into an

organization and say why are you trying

to make all of these implementers all

these technical people salespeople

there are some if you freed them from

what is a burden to them what is not

natural to them what they don't want to

do and you allowed them to do the thing

that they loved what would happen they

would be more productive you would put

more better suited people into the sales

role I think there's an epidemic of

people blindly repeating that line, it's

everybody's job to sell. And if you just

ask, what if it wasn't you, the truth

would be revealed, which is it shouldn't

be everybody's job to sell.

>> Well said. If you had one piece of

advice to give raw salespeople, and I

know it's not your sector, but there's a

lot of value in what we've discussed.

You could only give them one piece of

advice, what would it be and why?

>> I think the piece of advice is it

doesn't really matter what you're

selling.

You should view yourself not just a

seller of that product or that service,

but you should view yourself as an

advisor. And you might be able to charge

for the advisory services that you

deliver or it might just be part of the

package. I think there's this

convergence in other worlds where

consulting is merging with engineering

which is merging with design [snorts]

which is merging with software

engineering and AI etc. to the point

where many people have said it's all

professional services. Now

>> I think you should think about your job

as professional services. You are an

advisor to these people

and as part of the implementation of

your advice is the products that they

can buy from you to help implement your

guidance.

>> Yeah, I love um a lot of my guys want to

be a trusted adviser but they're too

fast. It's like we have a rule here. You

don't give yourself your own nicknames.

That title is bestowed on you and it's

earned, not entitled. The concept I have

is you need to be a buyer's assistant.

>> Yeah.

>> And a buyer's assistant, you don't do

anything that sells. You do everything

to help your buyer make a good,

accurate, and informed decision, whether

it ends up being you or someone else.

And I think that's when your buyers feel

really safe. Blair, you've been an

absolute legend. Thank you for coming on

the show. I know you you work with some

very famous people. You the the people

that we won't rattle off that you

interview on your podcast is

gobsmacking.

Can I just say you've had a huge impact

on me and my professional career. I hold

you in very high respect. I love your

podcast with David C. Baker. I would

love to get David on the show. Maybe I

mean I love the way you guys think. I

love the fact that you are helping

salesp people and I know you're more in

the expertise space but there's so much

value in what you've said is that you're

helping people stop being powerless and

then that whole Martin Seligman concept

of learned helplessness what you're

doing what you're putting out your

resources in materials you're helping

people going from powerless to having

power and when we say power we mean that

sentence case not all caps so you do

wonderful work my friend and please keep

it up and thank you for making time for

us.

>> Ah, thank you, Singen. Those are kind

words and I have to say I feel very

ideologically aligned with you and the

advice that you give to your client. So,

it's really my honor to be here and have

this conversation with you.

>> Cool. Blair, last thing. Um,

we point people [music] to your books,

Price and Creativity, uh, The Women

Without Pitching Manifesto. It's a

beautiful book, beautifully produced, I

might add, as well. And [music] then

your latest book called Conversations.

I'm looking forward to your next book in

8 years time.

Um, and uh, last thing, where is [music]

best for people to connect you? Because

there's been a lot of people that want

to find out more about what you do.

>> They can go to winwith without

pitching.com or I am Blairs on LinkedIn.

>> Beautiful Blair, my man. Uh, you travel

safe, sir. Enjoy your trip to Aussie.

Hopefully, [music] we will catch up in

person soon.