Peter Levine, PhD — NSR 26

Welcome to another session of the

nervous system reboot. I'm Ron Seagull,

a clinical psychologist at Harvard

Medical School in the USA. I'll be your

host for the session. Today I have the

great pleasure of interviewing a real

innovator and pioneer in the field of

sematic psychotherapy, Dr. Peter Lavine.

Welcome, Peter. Thank you so much for

joining this uh program.

>> Good to see you again, Ron.

>> Good to see you. And I think I'll start

by sharing something about your

background for folks who might not be

familiar with your work and then then

we'll jump in.

>> So Dr. Peter Lavine is the developer of

sematic experiencing a pioneering

naturalistic and neurobiological

approach to healing trauma. He holds

doctorates in biohysics from the

University of California, Berkeley and

in psychology from international

university. He is the founder and

president of the eros institute for

sematic education and the founder and

adviser for sematic experiencing

international. Over five decades, Dr.

Lavine has advanced the field of trauma

therapy through research, clinical

innovation and global education. His

work has been taught to more than 30,000

practitioners in over 42 countries. He

served as a stress consultant for NASA

during the early space shuttle program

and contributed to task forces within

the American Psychological Association

addressing large-scale trauma and

ethnopolitical conflict. A best-selling

author, Dr. Lavine's books include

Waking the Tiger, In an Unspoken Voice,

Trauma and Memory, and his recent

memoir, An Autobiography of Trauma: A

Healing Journey. So speaking of

autobiographies,

um you spend a long time studying how

humans and animals for that matter move

through overwhelming experiences. Can

you give us a bit of the origin story

and particularly whether there's a

moment that stands out that that was

really formative to you? Yeah, there was

a a singular event that really I mean I

had already started to go in this

direction, but this really kind of let

me know what I was supposed to be doing

and what I was going to be studying,

which is why animals why we are easily

traumatized

and why animals in the wild in their

natural environments uh even though

their life is threatened on a routine

basis if it's a prey animal do not

become traumatized in the same way. But

I mean, if they're caged and terrified,

they also will develop trauma symptoms,

but in their natural environment, they

don't. And so, what can we learn about

what they do that we're not doing? And

the singular event that really began my

path in this was something that happened

in 1969. And I remember it was a month

or two after the moon landing. So it

kind of two of them kind of somehow got

crossed in my mind.

And um I was asked to see this woman who

was suffering from many physical

complaints

um but also from pretty severe panic

attacks and agorophobia to the degree

that she couldn't leave the house alone.

And even with her husband it was an

ordeal. So I had been developing some

relaxation techniques in the in the

mid60s. I was working with a group of

men who had high blood pressure and I

found that re being able to relax

certain a sequence of muscles that often

their u their uh blood pressure would

drop 10 20 30 sometimes even 40 points.

So anyhow, a very good friend of mine uh

was seeing this woman I call Nancy and

uh he had he was referred she was

referred to him because of the anxiety

attacks and that time there was one uh

anti-depressant and one anti-anxiety. So

it says takes us back a little ways. So

anyhow, when she came in with her

husband, I could and her eyes were like,

you know, uh uh uh deer in the headlight

eyes and her pulse rate was really

throbbing. I could see from the corateed

pulse at about 120 beats a minute. And I

just tried to reassure her say, "Nancy,

I'm just going to help you do some

relaxation

so to help you uh reduce your anxiety."

Well, as I soon discovered, relaxation

was not the answer. Yes, her heart rate

started to drop

drop down to 80 70

and I, you know, I was like patting

myself on the back for how great I am,

you know, but that that inflated sense

lasted only a short period of time

because when she was down to about 70

beats a minute, her heart rate shot way

up to about even more to 300

beats a at maybe 135 beats a minute. And

if you can think

of what's the stupidest thing I possibly

could say,

that is exactly what I said, which is,

and those of you who are watching and

listening, you probably can imagine the

same thing. Nancy, you must relax. You

just need to relax. Relax.

>> And that that's that's what I thought

you were going to say,

>> right? Yeah, that's pretty, you know,

pretty lame,

>> but natural impulse. I mean, we, you

know, you know, any human with somebody

who's upset like that. Yeah. We want

them to relax, so we try it as a

command.

>> Exactly. And

her heart rate started going down to

like 130, 120,

>> 100,

90, 80, 70,

60, and then down to almost 65 to 55.

>> Mhm.

>> And she opened her w eyes like this and

just locked onto me. Locked onto my

eyes. And she said, "Doctor,

I'm dying. Don't let me die. Help me.

Don't let me die.

And even as I say this again, this is

something that happened what over 50

years ago, I still get a little twisting

in my chest. And hopefully because I've

developed somatic approach, I know

exactly how to open to that and let it

move through to go into the contraction

and then into an expansion.

So, uh, I had then an image

on the far wall of the consultation room

of a tiger getting ready to spring. And

I said, and I didn't quite know why at

the time,

it became very clear afterwards. I said,

"Nancy, there's a tiger crouching.

The tiger is going to is leaping towards

you. Run. run to those rocks and climb

and escape.

And

my my admonition wasn't helpful because

I could see that she was getting even

more frantic.

And so I had the idea, he's talking

about safety as one of the other topics.

I said, "Nancy,

here's my hand, my imaginary hand. I

want you to just imagine that you're

holding it and we can start walking

together and then running together

and then for about

gosh about 20

20 30 minutes her body would shake in

waves

of gentle trembling.

She would um she would take deep

spontaneous breaths. her color would

change like her fingers were you know

blue cold sweat from her head and from

her hands and then again it would shift

to an easy deep breath and a deep sense

of relaxation.

So after this, as I said, went on for,

you know, 30 minutes or so, uh, she

opened her eyes

and instead of grabbing on to me, she

looked in a gentle way and we connected.

This, of course, is, you know, my my

brother with another mother's

uh, social engagement system, my friend

Steven Pores.

And uh and she said something I don't

remember exactly what but something like

do you want to know what happened?

And I said yeah I'm interested. She said

when you gave me that imaginary tiger I

tried to start to run but my body

wouldn't run. It felt like I was running

in mud or quick sand. But then when you

offered me your hand, I could let be my

body began to move. I would felt safe

enough for my body to move. And then I

could feel myself climbing the rocks and

looking down from that ledge and seeing

the tiger

and I knew that I was safe.

Then the next thing that happened

is that she described

looking down at the tiger

knew she was safe and the image of the

tiger faded and in its place

she saw herself when she was 4 years

old. So that was 20 years ago.

and she saw herself being held down by

doctors and nurses on the operating

table while a ether mask was forced on

her face for a tonslectomy

>> and she was absolutely terrified. Her

body tried anything it could to escape,

but she couldn't because she was held

down. And so her body had wanted to make

that escape for 40 years and was then

able to do it with the help of the

imaginary tiger. And again, as you

mentioned, that was the the the the

beginning of writing the book Awaken the

Tiger because it really starts with that

um with that experience.

>> Yeah. No, it's great. and and there's so

many so many uh elements to that story.

Um I'd like to ask you about a few of

them. Um so the first the the different

um states of arousal that she was in.

Yeah, I' I've heard um our response to

threat described as

you um regular fight or flight, but then

if that's really high, a kind of deer in

the headlights state

>> rose freezing

>> and and the freezing state, but then

there's a couple of other kinds of

freezing states or collapse states,

right? One of them is kind of the um or

the most prominent one is the kind of

mouse in the draw of the cat state,

right? Where Yes.

>> it it goes all limb. It sounds like um

uh she went through all three of those

with you.

>> She did. Absolutely. Absolutely. And her

body was able to do what it had needed

to do

that, you know, the 20 years before.

>> Right. So talk to us more talk to us

more about that because because I I I

think that's a um a particular

contribution of your work which is

fascinating which is the way in which

these um motor patterns right get stored

and and are looking for expression to

resolve the trauma even 40 years later.

>> It's it's exactly it's there. It's

locked in and it's pressing for

completion. And completion again was one

of the things that really made it clear

the direction I was going. These things

happened to o many many of us where we

felt threatened or undermined

but we were overwhelmed or parent

guardian wasn't

uh there for us. You know we were left

alone with that wound. I mean, the word

trauma comes from the Latin wound or um

or injury.

Uh so, again, getting back to Nancy, her

nervous system was still geared up for

that flight or fight and stuck in the

freeze and collapse. And again with that

sequence of having her see an actual

threat,

be able to uh not be not be frozen or

collapsed, but with the sense a

beginning of a sense of safety to be

able to come and to complete what her

body had needed to do those many many

years ago. One other thing happened

and it took me quite a time to actually

realize the importance of this and which

actually gave me the motivation to write

my current the current book I'm working

on right now is called uh trauma and

spirituality resilience in the human

spirit. She said she she described what

was going on in her body. I I had asked

her what what she noticed and she looked

and just gently like touched her chest

and said, "It feels like I'm being held

in womb in warm tingling waves."

>> Mhm.

>> And this is not a typical psychological

state, you know, it's an unordinary

state. It's something that also occurs

in meditation in some cases with

psychedelic work.

But it's a sense again of being

of an embodied feeling. That's the key

of feeling safe and held and connected

to self and connected to other.

>> Yeah. And uh woven in there is is Steve

Porges's idea that uh it is the

connection to others that's an

enormously powerful regulator of our

nervous system from when we're very

little. Right.

>> That's right. And with many people that

doesn't occur or doesn't occur

adequately and so we lose that

resilience.

But the good news is it's always there.

It's innate. Yes, that is it as it is

with the animals

>> and we can given the right guidance we

can evoke that and

work with it in what I call pendulation

so that the person can experience a

contraction

but also that there's an expansion and

again this is a lot of what Nancy was

experiencing

there's a toy that I use to demonstrate

pendulum

You know when we touch when a person is

touching into some traumabased

sensations

the their body contracts

and because of that they resist that

contraction as much as they can but

because of that if that had happened

with Nancy she wouldn't have been able

to you know continue with the processing

of her trauma and but if The person is

guided

gently to feel into to sense into that

somatic

awareness of contraction. Then there

will be an expansion and another

contraction and then a greater

expansion.

>> Yeah. The the the key I would I would

imagine is a kind of attitude of kind of

mindfulness of curiosity, openness. Y

>> um let me go in and let me somehow trust

mind the nervous system that that this

is going to be a healing journey.

>> Yeah. To trust that enough to be curious

enough because again when people are

traumatized they really lose that sense

of uh of curiosity.

You know everything seems bad.

>> Yeah. But again if the person is guided

to gradually gradually in a small amount

at a time I call it titration because

again if we just go into the trauma

right away too much too soon it'll be

like being retraumatized. So it's

obviously something we don't want. So we

just titrate a little bit of that inner

experience. I show you my toy here. Yep.

Uh this is I found this at the airport

in Denver some many many years ago. And

so when we touch into traumatic

sensations, our body contracts.

But if we're guided and if it feels safe

enough, as with Nancy, then there will

be an expansion

>> and then another contraction and another

expansion.

>> Mhm.

>> And another and another. And the key was

another thing that I discovered around

the idea of spirituality

is that just going into the expansion

which obviously just going into the

contraction isn't going to be helpful.

Just going continually going into the

expansion also isn't going to be helpful

helpful. Sometimes that's called the

bliss bypass. So when people are

meditating and they go into this o open

expanded state

uh and then all of a sudden that whole

thing collapses

because you have to be able to hold

those two polarities together. Hold

together contraction and the expansion

not one or the other. Either way that

doesn't work. But for the real awakening

again it has to hold together the

experience of contraction and the

experience of expansion as it's embodied

as it is experienced in the body.

Let let's book that for a moment because

I do want to get into leap to this other

end of your career trajectory which is

the to really examine the implications

of this for for spiritual uh

development. But you said something

along the way that I want to um I want

to just ask you a little bit more about

which is that we have this innate

potential.

>> Yes.

>> Um for not just for healing but for

feeling love and feeling held and and

entering in that space. And I I've I've

been partyed to a few discussions about

this where

some people are saying yes it's

absolutely an innate potential. It's

what say in Buddhist traditions is

called Buddha nature or you know the god

within in in in other traditions or

godhead within and yogic traditions

perhaps that

>> open heart

>> there's something there that's simply

our birthright and the other side the

other side of the argument if you will

not a combative argument but really

exploring the two dimensions of this is

that um well no this is it's a

developmental accomplishment we have to

kind of learn in the the cauldron of

interpersonal relationships, ideally

early relationships,

what it's like to love and be loved and

connect and have attunement and all of

that. And my guess is both perspectives

are simultaneously true, but I wondered

if you could

talk about that.

>> But what both what perspectives? I think

both perspectives are probably true that

that yes, to some degree it's a

developmental accomplishment because you

know when we see people who really had a

very inadequate attachment history

>> it's it's a rough go to

>> it really is it really is

>> you know um but there also is this kind

of thing that we can drop into sometimes

suddenly with psychedelics sometimes in

meditative practices

>> as archetypes. Yeah,

>> as archetypes. And you know, thankfully

those archetypes are there to hold us in

loving kindness even though we didn't

get or get enough of that as babies, as

infants, but it still exists there. You

know, uh I give you just a little bit of

a personal uh story. Um,

you know, I've been teaching in

Switzerland for the past 24 25 years

and uh, one of the shortly after I

arrived, my uh, sponsors took me to this

abbey in Einsteet. It's about an hour

and a half outside of Zurich.

And this abbey

is the home

of the uh black Madonna

>> and the the black Madonna holding baby.

I mean, you can I'm sure you can Google

it and see. And as I entered into the

room and saw her presence,

I just actually came to my knees

and sobbed. and a number of traumatic

experiences, many of which I worked on

before, seem to be washed away by her

presence. So obviously she's not a real

mother, but she is this universal

archetype. So, and I think Jung talks

about that also about how important

these archetypes are to taking us to

loving kindness.

Uh again, whether it happens through a

relationship or whether it happens

uh like it happened with Nancy

or whether it

whether it comes in a meditator or or a

psychedelic experience, it's clear that

those are there. I mean, people feel

surprised, I think, and rightfully so,

that they have inside of them this

universal love and self-compassion.

You know, in working on this book, you

know, I came across some, you know, some

interesting research on meditation. I

I'm not sure I agree with a lot of this,

but this is by Satchet and some of his

um colleagues

that um that often people when they're

meditating

uh fall into

into frightening spaces.

When we can help the person

slowly enter these states, the

these non-ordinary states,

then they experience something that is

usually often startling to them that all

of a sudden they feel love

coming from inside and coming from

outside. I know for me um sometimes it's

really important that I that I felt how

much caring people had for me

>> not just my love for myself and for

others but their caring for me and where

is all this stuff coming from it's like

whoa hey I never knew that was there you

know and again I think that's fairly

typical thing that people describe in a

well-guided psychedelics experience

All of a sudden they feel this this

universal love and they had no idea that

it was there.

>> Yeah.

>> But it

I was going to say and I'm guessing that

the black Madonna is a little bit of a

surprise cuz I I think we share some

aspects of a cultural background where

where the Madonna would not be the

natural doorway to spirituality. Right.

Not not what you grew up with.

>> Right. Exactly. I mean you again, you

know, when I kind of laughed about this

a little bit and I realized, yeah, I

mean,

I don't come from a crack a Catholic or

a Christian background, yet her

presence,

and it's I mean, it's really in a way

not so easy for me to describe it. It

was all encompassing. It was like with

with Nancy. It was like I was being held

by her in warm tingling waves. That she

was there for me

and that she was providing what was

either non-existent or limited from my

early childhood. But she was there as a

universal

>> as universal consciousness which is

again what what Jung describe and what

many describe in meditation and and

psychedelic enhanced

um experiences.

>> Yeah. And and just before we dive more

into the the spiritual end of it, coming

back to Nancy, um it sounds like what

she experienced was a little bit of a

mix between the wanting to complete the

action part um and the kind of uh

shaking that you see. Uh I I think of um

uh Bob Scare used to show films a lot

whenever he'd present at conferences of

a polar bear that was being

>> I I gave him that one.

>> Oh, all right. There you go. I I I knew

that.

>> He's a wonderful person and I'm so By

the way, his book, The Trauma Spectrum,

is an excellent book and he's a lovely

man. He sadly died too young.

>> Oh, I did not know that he passed away.

>> Oh, yeah. No, he died about 10 years

ago.

>> Oh my. I didn't know that. I I had seen

him years ago in these things.

>> Yeah, he's

>> and I

>> and I remember this video, right, which

is there's a polar bear being chased by

a helicopter for benevolent reasons.

They they need to relocate the the polar

bear to a safer region. Um he's

anesticized,

goes into some form of unconsciousness,

but when he wakes up,

>> it's all shaking and deep spontaneous

breaths. And what that is doing is that

is regulating that hyperarousal state

and bringing it to equilibrium.

>> So that's like being freaked out and

just just breathe, Ron. It's okay. Just

breathe.

>> Breathe and let the shaking happen.

Again, often people when they start to

shake, they became frightened. They

become frightened by the shaking and

they stop it. But by stopping it,

they're preventing the the trauma energy

from completing its arousal cycle. So

going into a hyperaroused state and then

well first in a hypoaroused state, then

a hyperaroused state and then a

settling. And the settling is brought

about by this gentle trembling waves

that occur when people are resolving

trauma. It happens

>> thousands. I've seen it literally

thousands of times. Thousands.

Thousands.

>> Are there cultures that kind of knew

about this and build it in in some

ritual way so that it's it's not

surprising to them, but it's kind of

standard and a person doesn't have to be

a patient in uh or client in sematic

experiencing to be guided through this.

>> Oh, that's a good point. uh you know uh

you know after I had developed the work

I became really interested in how other

cultures do a similar thing

and uh so I visited in different places

in Brazil and and in other places um

people who are considered to be shamans

and when they work they use a bit of

trickery

uh to uh break through the person's

resistance to the shaking

>> and that in in almost all of the the

shamans that I've met they describe

something very similar to this this

gentle shaking and trembling

and they may again they may like give a

counter shock to the person to get them

out of their resistance and then they

start to shake and tremble and they

treat all Right? You know, in in uh I'll

take one other thing about this. Uh

there's a a a word in Portuguese and in

Spanish called sustains

fright paralysis or soul loss.

And um and I think that is in a way

calling the soul back from the shamanic

standpoint, but from the psychological,

it's having the person uh uh come out of

the dissociation and be able to come

back in into their body.

>> And and what's the trick that they use?

>> Well, it's it's varied. You know,

sometimes they'll I mean, they're

chanting and and and you know, banging

on drums and so forth and then maybe and

they often have some kind of dust in

their hand and so they're drumming and

then they go

and the person is startled by that and

that startled then takes them they're

shaking and they're trembling. But uh

one of the people that I had the

privilege to meet was the chief of the

Kanaki peoples. And this is a uh in the

jungles of north Brazil, northeastern

Brazil.

And when I arrived after 25 hours of

traveling and hiking into the jungle, I

met with the chief and I asked him,

well, look, there's some other stuff

here, but I asked him if he un if he

knows about shustus or and he said

because his daughter uh wonderful, very

intelligent young woman uh she was the

first person to go to college

And so she even taught him the name

trauma. So he said, "Yes, I know the

word trauma. I know the word sust." But

there's a mistake here. Basically what

he said, he said because

you know because they had been banished

from their land and for many years they

fought in the courts to be able to

return because the farmers and the

loggers you know pushed them out and

then actually ruined a lot of the that

environment which was you know part of

their whole tradition.

And so what the the chief was doing was

he was leading people

into um into reestablishing the rituals

that had been part of the comm the tribe

for forever.

And um and then he said to me that

trauma occurs when there isn't this

fertile ground.

And this fert by this fertile ground he

meant the rituals, the dance, the

movements, the singing, the drumming.

And uh I had I there was an example that

happened there. There was this one

woman, she she had diabetes and she was

pregnant um with twins. So it's

considered a high-risisk pregnancy. So

she had to go to this hospital which was

many hours away.

And tragically

the uh twins died at birth and she was

of course heartbroken

and she fell into a severe depression.

They tried giving her drugs and nothing

helped and so they wanted to give her

shock treatment. So in order to do that

they would have to get permission from

her husband. And so when the chief found

out about that,

uh first of all, um they

kind of a scout group came out and uh

went to the hospital for many hours of

walking and they fashioned a ladder out

of bamboo

and they climbed up to her window and

pulled her out and escaping from the

hospital and brought her back

to um to the tribe.

and they would be doing this.

When I participated, it was really

astonishing

very uh brief singing and moving in a

and chanting in a in a special way. And

after doing that for maybe 10 or 15

minutes, I was in a definite altered

state. And there were no, you know,

there were no um uh uh agents, drug

agents that were used. It was just those

those inner movements. But she stayed

outside of the group for some days.

And then at one time some of the people

started with the women but the people

who were in the circle if you remember

she's outside they started to tear and

she could sense that and she started to

tear and started to cry and then she

came back into the group

and was able to come out and came out of

her depression. M

>> so again understanding how important

community is.

>> Yeah.

>> And that's another thing um that I've

learned from some of the indigenous

people also reading about some of that

like the forest people by Colin

Turnbull.

>> Yeah. both community and you're also

pointing to something very interesting

which has has long seemed the case to me

that that depression

we do it a disservice by calling it a

disease that depression so often

involves some set of feeling that we

can't fully access and can't allow to

flow in this case it sounds like it was

tears for for her and and and I wonder

your thoughts about the relationship

ship between tears,

crying, sobbing, and the kind of shaking

that the animals do.

>> Yeah. Well, I mean, the animals don't

cry, as far as I know, but they

definitely shake and tremble.

And so it's pretty clear for anybody who

studied animal behavior or has a pet dog

or even a pet cat

uh that animals have emotions

clearly.

They may not have tears well, you know,

but they are clearly emotional beings.

And I think that's one of the reasons

why people become so attached to their

animal pets

is because

they are so emotionally wise.

So I don't doubt that along with the

shaking and trembling they're

experiencing emotions.

Again, we don't see the tears regularly,

but they certainly have emotions and

they certainly discharge

>> stuck energy

>> and and there are forms of crying and

forms of sobbing that do involve the

whole body shaking that uh I mean just

even personally, you know, as somebody

who was um effectively taught not to cry

by the other boys in uh in early

adolescence,

um re-entering into the world of crying.

Uh sometimes takes the form of

tears coming. Sometimes it takes the

form of a kind of

sobbing. It's not exactly crying, but

it's it's a little bit of almost

convulsing that I experience.

>> Yeah.

>> As the discharge.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That happened.

You know, often what I've noticed

happening is people will start crying

and sobbing and then it'll go into

laughing

>> into ecstasy and it'll maybe cycle back

and forth between tears and ecstasy.

>> Mhm.

>> You know, uh Colin Turnbull is an

anthropologist. He wrote this wonderful

book called The Forest People. And these

are uh in the uh the Pygmy tribes in the

Congo.

And he went there to study them, but not

in the way that that anthropologists

normally do, which is they, you know,

they have their check off sheets and how

many times they did this and that and

this and the other thing and um and then

they report it scientifically.

But Turnbull instead he really joined in

with the crowd. He knew all of their

names. They knew his name and he

participated

in many of their rituals.

And so when somebody would had somebody

close that was ill or died,

they would come together in a group and

cry

and sob for the whole night.

And then in the morning at the first

break of of sun, they would go into the

deep forest and there they would dance

together drumming and singing in

ecstasy.

So I think it's not just the crying but

crying is also a route to joy.

>> Yeah.

>> Exuberance. There was a I don't know if

um if you ever came across this but

there was a movement it still exists uh

started by this guy I think uh Harvey

Jkins uh called reevaluation

co-ounseling and it was entirely a

discharge model you know it was a kind

of rogerian hold one another you know

reflective listening but but the

emphasis was on all these different

forms of discharge and they all kind of

remind me of the animals you're

describing

>> yeah I think so I think so yeah I know I

remember a little bit about that the co-

counseling kind of model and yeah and

often that's what you'll see and again

as people move through that

they something resets not only in their

nervous system but in their whole psyche

in their whole being.

So, so let me ask you about this other

end of your career now, what you're

working on now, which is the

relationship between this kind of uh

discharging and and connecting and

releasing and uh spiritual awakening.

>> Yeah. Um

well, again, that's one that I've been

pondering.

when we're working with states of high

arousal

or hypo low arousal

uh and we do this in the absence of well

we do it often bec with fear

and that doesn't lead to the resolution

but even if we go into a state of

collapse of hypoarousal

in the absence of fear that opens to

many different spiritual states. I give

you an example.

There's a a researcher named Roland

Fiser. You might know of his work.

And he had this model.

On one side were states of high high

arousal. On the other side were states

of hypoarousal. So he looked at

different experiences from everyday

consciousness to Jen to Zen in the

hypoarousal state or in the hyperarousal

state to uh states of uh psychosis and

hyperarousal

and so forth and that when either state

would would flip into the other state.

So if a person was in a state of

hypoarousal

in a state of of uh samadei then they

might go into ecstasy or if they're in a

state of ecstasy then they might go on

the opposite polarity. So he designed

that model and it's a very useful model.

I I knew him back way back in the day

and uh the I think the article was

called the ctography

of ecstatic experience something like

that Roland Roland Fisher

>> it's it's it's it's worth looking up

that research to see it was again some

of it was done with psilocybin others

with people practicing different

spiritual disciplines. Yeah, this

reminds me of um uh you know Reich um

>> had um had famously said that if a

person could fully experience an orgasm

that would mean they were free from

psychonurosis

>> and uh he's probably right about that.

But it's also applies if a person can

fully experience a cup of tea it

probably means they're free of neurosis

that they're

>> good. There's a kind of inverse

relationship, right, between being able

to show up and be fully present to the

moment, which is a one quality of many

of these spiritually more awakened

states. There's a relationship between

that and not not um expending psychic

resources trying to keep things out of

awareness.

Yeah, I I certainly couldn't have said

it better myself, you know, and this and

um I mean I studied the work and the

work of Reich, you know, quite uh

intensively

and he actually talked about the

autonomic nervous system.

But I think the part where

he was a little bit off was that this

was all about having the perfect orgasm.

>> Yeah. Right. You know,

>> you missed out on a cup of tea.

>> Yeah. Right. Right. I mean, you know,

there are many different ways that one

can experience pleasure.

>> Yeah.

>> Like present pleasure of being alive,

you know. Um, and can sometimes be quite

intense as with an orgasm or much more

softly

as an everyday experience.

>> Yeah. I mean, you know, if we go outside

of our of our house

and we look and there's a blade of grass

and there's a a line of dew just sitting

on the blade of grass and we look at

that and all of a sudden we are moved

into the state of

kind of an ecstasy.

And again, it's about, like you said,

about being present in the moment

and being able to when to know when

we're not in the moment and to bring

ourselves back into the moment.

>> Yeah. No, very powerful. I I I wonder if

um if you might share with us I mean you

know I you use many different exercises

because it's a uh there are so many

different ways that people can get stuck

but you know maybe something that's

fairly universal that you could lead us

through that uh helps helps bring this

to life experientially.

>> Glad gladly to do that. You know we were

again talking about the hypo and hyper

arousal. There are three basic systems

in the nervous system.

Hyperarousal, that's the reticular

formation. Hypoarousal, that's the

veagal system, the dorsal veagal system.

And then there's social connection,

which is the in Steven's terms, the

ventral veagal system.

And um what happens again when we are

completely overwhelmed

that veagal system collapses us. It the

veagal system is the largest nerve in

the body

and it goes from the back of the brain

down through the diaphragm and to all of

the organs below the diaphragm and also

to the heart and the lungs. And the

nerve is the as I said the largest nerve

in the body.

And

80% of those that nerve is afrant. It's

actually sensory information coming from

the guts

>> back up to the brain and letting us know

how we feel inside. You talked about a

little bit about feeling safe. That's

what feeling safe is about is feeling

that inner warmth in our in our gut. So,

let's just say you again walk out and

this time you're not looking at a leaf

of grass, but somebody's had an accident

and the brain recognizes injury and it

sends an impulses down to 20% of that

nerve down into our guts and we get this

twisting gh

and then if we of course we call for

help. But if we see that the person is

really injured, it goes even more more

of a twist. But remember that nerve is

80% sensory. So it's taking that yuck

twist and relaying it back up to the

brain where it's amplified.

So let's just say the person who's seen

that and then that night they're laying

in bed and all of a sudden they feel a

twisting in their gut and then there's

an image from that day of seeing the

person injured.

So this is how things get stuck

because again when that yuck

gets recycled

it becomes like a a

a lasting impression. So for example uh

you know uh

well let me give credit to where credit

is due. Charles Darwin recognized this

nerve and he wrote about it in the this

landmark book landmark book the the

expression of emotions in man and

animals and he called it the

pneumogastric nerve pumo lungs gastric

and I believe he also understood that it

was uh 80% that it was mostly taking

information sending it up

>> so anyhow so I is trying to find a way

to get a new signal,

not the yuck signal, from the gut and

relaying it up to the brain stem saying

that the injury is over, the threat is

over.

>> You can come back into the present time.

And so I worked on that for a good two

years and I finally came across a

certain type of breath with a certain

specific uh sound that would really

change that system back into neutral

into balance.

And the idea and if any of you who are

watching want to uh want to join me

please feel free but don't feel any

pressure to do it. The idea is to take

an easy full breath and on the

exhalation to make the sound vuv

as though or coming from the belly and

letting the breath and the sound all the

way out

and then waiting for the new breath to

come in filling belly and chest and then

repeat. Usually when people do that they

feel tingling, vibration, sometimes

gentle shaking. Often they feel warmth

in their belly but it can also bring up

um um sensations and emotions and

memories

uh you know that are trauma traumabased

but again usually it's a pleasant

sensation. So I don't want anybody to

feel that they have to do this but I

invite anybody who wants to do it

>> to join me. So I'll demonstrate.

So easing full breath

when I let the breath in the sound all

the way out and wait for the next breath

to come in filling belly and chest.

And again

v.

And just notice sensations, feelings,

images, thoughts,

which is all part of the experience in

the here and now.

And again, the idea in working with

trauma is not really just to go back to

the memories of the trauma, but to be

able to move forward into the present

into a future that's not encumbered.

>> Mhm.

>> By the trauma. So, anyhow, this is

>> Let's do it a few more times so that uh

catches so so that everybody can get a a

good felt sense of it.

>> Sure. Sure. Sure. I'll do it two or

three more times. And again, you can

stop at any time. And again, just be

curious about your inner experience,

whether it's sensations, feelings,

emotions, or images, or memories. So,

wait for the rest to come in on its own.

and just welcome any sensations,

feelings, thoughts, images, memories,

and know that they're there for your own

benefit, for your own healing.

I I really appreciate what you're

pointing out about the nerve being

largely aferent. Um because the

experience that I've had so often which

is being anxious and in a kind of high

arousal state and then noticing that the

mind kind of spins from topic to topic.

It's as though it's looking for content

to fit this arousal state and and at a

certain point sometimes I have the you

know the the insight to realize this is

nonsense content. You know you're in

this arousal state. Maybe it's from

something else we haven't addressed yet

or seen yet or

>> it may come up.

>> Something's going on or may not come up.

>> But a lot of the stuff that's spinning

is just it's just feeding off the

arousal state. And I think that's what

you're pointing to here.

>> Yeah. And being able to come to

equilibrium,

>> right,

>> to reset the nervous system state. So,

it's in a balance between

uh uh arousal states uh uh uh h low

arousal states and to be able to work in

that realm

to um to then find the place where the

nervous system is at comfort and that

the feeling is safe and that the arousal

even if it's a high arousal doesn't feel

frightening.

>> Yeah. And the low arousal doesn't feel

frightening.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That that kind of um meta

sense of it's okay sweetheart regardless

of the arousal state in many ways feels

more important than controlling the

arousal state.

>> Yeah. And also looking for the memories

because we all things have happened and

when we come to equilibrium in this way

sometimes images and memories appear but

sometimes those images are more like the

archetypal in images that I talked about

before. So it doesn't come from a memory

but it comes from some holding presence.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. I'm I'm my eye is a little bit on

the clock. I I could go on for several

hours with you. This is really

fascinating. I I so appreciate the

overview um you've given us. When people

want to learn more about your work,

where do you like to?

>> Yeah. Uh best go to the the somatic

experiencing one word somatic

experiencing.com

website. It also can connect to the that

you mentioned sematic experiencing

international

for the organization that's responsible

for giving the the uh uh uh method out.

It's actually now I I was really

somewhat surprised about this. It's now

been taught to 200,000 people.

>> Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.

>> In over 50 countries.

>> Wow. that really I I I had a meeting

with the with the uh person who's now

one of the co- uh executive directors

and we spent a day together up at my

place in Maine and you know he told me

about that and I was actually quite

astonished.

>> Wow. Yeah, that's wonderful. I mean it's

it you know it has touched so many

people in so many useful ways.

>> Yeah. Anyhow, you know, in the

autobiography,

uh, I asked myself two questions.

The question, have I done enough? And

that that's the answer. I have enough

because it's not my responsibility to

teach this anymore. It's on the

shoulders of about 70 trainers,

international trainers. So, yeah, I have

done enough. I am at peace with that. as

the question of am I enough? That was

kind of the motivation in a way of

writing the autobiography of trauma is

to really look and say who am I and am I

enough?

>> So that's my story.

>> Well, I think you're enough for what

it's worth.

>> I appreciate that. I know.

>> Thank you. Thank you so much for taking

for taking the time and sharing with

everybody. It's so lovely to connect

with you again. It's nice to connect

with you, Ron. I remember warmly the

times that we have connected at

conferences and so forth.

>> It's always been nice and I always look

forward to seeing you again.

>> Me, too. May you be well. Okay. Be well.