Are Insects And Plants Conscious? The Answer Might Be Yes. - Michael Pollan

>> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY!

WELCOME BACK.

FOLKS, MY NEXT GUEST IS A "NEW YORK TIMES" BESTSELLING

AUTHOR WHOSE BOOKS INCLUDE "THE OMNIVORE'S DILEMMA,"

"IN DEFENSE OF FOOD," AND "HOW TO CHANGE YOUR MIND."

HIS NEW BOOK IS "A WORLD APPEARS: A JOURNEY INTO

CONSCIOUSNESS."

PLEASE WELCOME BACK TO "THE LATE SHOW," MICHAEL POLLAN.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] ♪ ♪ MICHAEL, IT'S ALWAYS GOOD TO

TALK TO YOU.

LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE WE TALKED ABOUT PSYCHEDELICS.

YOUR BOOK ON PSYCHEDELICS AND YOUR NEW BOOK DELVES

EVEN DEEPER INTO THE RECESSES OF THE MIND,

EXPLORES THE SUBJECT OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

HERE'S THE BOOK RIGHT HERE."A

A WO CONSCIOUSNESS"

CONSCIOUSNESS."

>> Michael: I DO HAVE A PLUG.

SORRY.

>> Stephen: WHAT SET YOU OFF ON THE JOURNEY?

>> Michael: THIS AND >> Michael: THIS AN PSYCHEDELIC

EXPERIENCE.

PSYCHEDELICS HAVE A WAY OF SMUDGING THE WINDSHIELD OF

CONSCIOUSNESS.

>> Stephen: I THOUGHT THE DOORS OF PERCEPTION WOULD BE

CLEANSED.

>> Michael: IT JUST SMUDGED.

AND SUDDENLY YOU REALIZE THERE'S A WINDSHIELD AND

WHAT IS THAT ABOUT?

WHY IS IT THIS WAY AND NOT THAT WAY?

>> Stephen: HOW DO YOU DEFINE CONSCIOUSNESS THEN?

>> Michael: IT'S REALLY NOT THAT HARD.

PEOPLE COMPLICATED BUT IT'S BASICALLY A SUBJECTIVE

EXPERIENCE OR EXPERIENCE.

YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE, YOUR TOASTER DOES NOT HAVE

EXPERIENCE.

>> Stephen: UNLESS YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS GET SO GREAT

TO INCLUDE THE TOASTER.

>> Michael: I GUESS THAT'S THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE.

>> Stephen: YOU WILL GET THERE, MIKE.

>> Michael: MY TOASTER WILL GET THERE.

BUT THE OTHER DEFINITION I REALLY LIKE IS BY

PHILOSOPHER NAMED THOMAS NAGEL WHO SAID IF IT IS LIKE

SOMETHING TO BE THIS CREATURE OR THAT CREATURE,

IF IT FEELS LIKE SOMETHING, YOU ARE CONSCIOUS.

HE WROTE A GREAT ESSAY CALLED WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE

A BAT?

EVEN THOUGH BATS ARE VERY DIFFERENT THAN US AND HANG

UPSIDE DOWN MOST OF THE DAY AND GET BY BY ECHOLOCATION,

WE CAN SORT OF IMAGINE THAT.

>> Stephen: WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AWARENESS

BECAUSE I CAN IMAGINE A BATS OR ANY CREATURE OF ANY KIND,

ANY LIVING THING HAVING AWARENESS.

EVEN PLANTS HAVE AN AWARENESS.

THEY ARE AWARE OF THE SUN IS.

DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN AWARENESS AND CONSCIOUSNESS.

CONSCIOUSNESS IS ALONG THE SCALE OF AWARENESS?

>> Michael: I WOULD SAY THERE'S A SPECTRUM THAT

BEGINS WITH WHAT I CALL A SENTIENCE AND THAT'S BASIC

AWARENESS OF YOUR ENVIRONMENT AND BEING ABLE

TO TELL FROM GOOD CHANGES FROM BAD AND GRAVITATE

TOWARD THE GOOD THINGS.

I THINK EVERYTHING ALIVE HAS NOT.

I THINK BACTERIA HAVE THAT.

SENTIMENTS IS THE DEFAULT FOR A LIFE.

CONSCIOUSNESS IS THE WAY HUMANS DO SENTIENCE.

HUMANS AND SOME OTHER ANIMALS.

>> Stephen: HOW MANY WOULD YOU INCLUDE IN THAT?

LIKE GREATER MEGAFAUNA, STUFF LIKE THAT?

>> Michael: YES.

MAMMALS, MOST MAMMALS, SOME BIRDS, CEPHALOPODS,

OCTOPUSES.

BUT NOW WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IS WE ARE

EXTENDING, DEMOCRATIZING CONSCIOUSNESS TO MORE AND

MORE SPECIES.

I THINK IT'S BRINGING US TO THIS INTERESTING COPERNICAN

MOMENT WHEN PER WHEN PE COPERNICUS CAME ALONG WE

WERE NOT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE.

THE SUN DID NOT REVOLVE AROUND US.

THAT WAS MIND-BLOWING.

AND I THINK WE ARE GETTING THERE NOW BECAUSE ON THE ONE

SIDE YOU HAVE GOT CONSCIOUSNESS NOW BEING

EXTENDED DOWN TO INSECTS AND POSSIBLY PLANTS, WHICH I

TALKED ABOUT IN THE BOOK.

ON THE OTHER, YOU HAVE AI COMING ALONG.

>> Stephen: WE HAVE TO TAKE A QUICK BREAK.

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH MORE MICHAEL POLLAN.

STICK AROUND!