He Helped Pioneer The Internet. Now He Says AI Will Change Everything Again

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Hi everyone, welcome back to Machine

Dreams where AI thinkers, builders, even

skeptics and survivors sit with us to

talk freely about failures,

breakthroughs, and what the future might

look like if we don't completely mess it

up. My name is Kawi Samuel Adibayo. I'm

a technology analyst and Forbes

contributor and I'm joined today by my

remarkable co-host.

>> I'm Leia Stern, a global communication

strategist and venture capitalist. Thank

you Sam for that incredible

introduction. Remarkable.

>> How you doing?

>> I'm okay. How are you?

>> Uh fine. I had a dream that we we

reached a thousand subscribers before

the end of the year on our YouTube

channel. So, [laughter]

>> how many are we at at the moment? Any

idea? I mean, we've only had one

episode.

>> We're We're at about 20 right now. So,

um we've had um a little over 200 views

on our first episode, and it's not even

24 hours yet, I think. Um which is a

good sign. So, maybe the dream comes to

pass after all. We'll see.

>> Maybe today's guest will up our numbers.

Who knows? Well, yeah. Today we're

joined by Roger Camas. He's research

director at CIONet International and

actually one of the pioneers of the

internet when he was at MIT in the

1970s. Not to age you Roger, but that is

extremely impressive.

>> Thank you very much, Leo. That was a

seminal moment. Really set my career up

for me.

>> We're very honored and privileged to

have you on the show. Thank you so much.

>> Yeah, this is the moment where you say

bow in the presence of greatness.

>> [laughter]

>> Roger, before we dive in, um, we were

just talking the other time. You've

lived through multiple eras of

technological change. You've seen the

rise of the internet. You've seen

microprocessors and chips and all of

that. Um, what's one moment from your

journey that still shapes, you know, how

you think about technology today?

>> Uh, big question. Actually

uh one particular moment uh in the

mid90s

British Telecom asked me to develop a

business plan uh for launching mobile

data.

Uh at that time it was all mobile voice.

Uh and we we were going into 3G which

required them to invest heavily in a new

network to support data. And the

question there was, so why would people

send data over a mobile network?

You'd have to laugh about that today. It

was 10 years before the iPhone. Uh, and

if I came back with three possible

applications, I said anywhere office,

personal world, which meant you could

access all your personal media, your

family, your photos, your films,

streaming. And the third one was what I

called emotional email or capture and

correspond which essentially was to say

I could be at a football match I could

capture the moment and I could share it

with friends. What was that? Facebook

before Facebook was even known about. I

think that was a seinal moment. Um I had

to wait 10 years to really see my dreams

come true. And you know we were

mentioning in the opening that you were

one of the pioneers of the internet.

Actually you told me that the first

computer actually costed the same as a

family car. Tell me tell me about that

first prototype.

>> Yes. I think we were all waiting for a

PC that we could actually bring to our

homes. At that that time [clears throat]

IBM was dominating the PC world and you

could go out you as a corporation you

could go you could afford to have a PC

but not many people were allowed to have

PCs in those days. So in 1983

suddenly the Mac was announced uh the

Macintosh and um the cost of that

product was the same as a family car and

as you can imagine the functionality was

so limited. It did have windows. That

was the big breakthrough

>> at the time. What did it cost

approximately?

>> Uh £3,000,

which in today's costs would be about

£30,000. So you may ask, why did I

splurge £3,000 on this computer? And the

answer is I actually wrote my first book

on on the computer. Uh and that made me

a lot of money. So uh more than paid for

the PC.

I think one of the things that I was

really curious to hear from you as

someone who's been in this in the game

in the technology space for well over

five decades you know you've been

advising

um boards of global 500 500 companies

for many many years about you know new

pieces of technology uh like AI is how

is the AI revolution

different if there's any difference at

all how is it different from you know re

previous technology revolutions that

we've seen, you know, over the last 1015

years.

>> Sure. I think that's a really good

question and and in the late ' 90s, uh,

I was in charge of e-commerce for EY and

Young and every major corporation in the

world was knocking on our door and

saying, "What's going to happen to us?

We've heard this word e-commerce. We

don't understand it. Do we put together

a website?" And I said, "No, I said this

is going to fundamentally change the way

you do business with your customers,

business to business and business to

consumer." Uh, that really shocked them.

They just didn't know what to do. And it

took many years before they really got

their hands around it. Uh, and look at

where Amazon took us. I mean, Amazon

came from nowhere and fundamentally

destroyed the retail industry. Um so it

it was a you know big body blow at the

time massive uncertainty and we're going

through the same thing again. No one at

board level has an understanding at all

of what AI means. Uh and I I put it like

this. I say that AI is a new era of

hyperpersonalization

whereas the last era was all about

transactions. It was all about hyper

connectivity. You could order something

out of Amazon. You just uh click and

collect and that's that's easy. Today

we're into a very new era where we're

not looking just at data. We're looking

at knowledge. We're looking at context.

And that changes the way we buy things.

That changes the way we organize

communities. Ultimately, I think it it

changes the world order. Now, [laughter]

most boards aren't get a face up to that

too easily. And the the interesting

question today is, you know, how how do

they even approach this new era? Uh

where do they start and and where do

they finish up? And we're all told it's

going to be all over in 10 years, but it

took 25 years for the internet to catch

on. Um, I suspect it'll take us another

20 years before AI is really embedded in

our lives. But right now, and I'm sure

you you as a journalists will

appreciate, it's enormously powerful in

in areas like research. Incredibly

powerful.

>> And because you've seen this evolution

over time, are you more fearful or

excited? Do you think we have more to be

excited about or more to be afraid

about? What really is in the near term?

>> Personally, I'm a great optimist. I

wouldn't be in this industry so long if

I wasn't. Uh I love new technologies. I

love the opportunities they present to

us. But clearly at the moment, my real

concern is jobs and careers. And I know

I've talked to a lot of young people in

at school, at university, postgrads, and

they're all saying, you know, how do we

prepare ourselves for this new AI era?

What are the jobs that will be around in

10 to 15 years time, and what will be

the jobs that aren't around? Uh, and I

think again, just like I mentioned,

boards are confused, young people are

confused. They're really confused as to

where to invest their time, energy,

passion. Uh it's it's a tough call right

now as to where where you might go into

into your new career.

Um just to track back a little bit um

and we'll come back to the subject of

jobs because there's real fear in the in

the in this space across you know

industries but you talked about IP

personalization as being the key

defining factor of the new AI era. Um

what could be the potential? I know that

there's a lot of benefits in terms of um

you know

um advertisements, personalizing

experiences uh but there are also

concerns about dangers especially when

it comes to privacy risks and all of

that. So what are some things to look

out for in this new era of

hyperpersonalization?

>> Sure. Well, so if I start, uh, I think

the big impact here is on our whole life

experiences. Whether it's our health,

whether it's our financial well-being,

our careers, our family relationships,

all of those things are going to be

hyperpersonalized. We're going to have

intelligence agents crawling all over

our lives. Uh, it's unstoppable.

Uh, up till now, of course, we'd given

away all our personal data. We're sucked

dry by Google and Amazon and everyone

else. Uh, and you know, we don't mind

too much. Uh, but it it hasn't infringed

on our personal freedom to date. The

danger now is that these intelligent

agents, agentic AI, are really going to

creep in there. Uh, and they're going to

discover all sorts of things about

ourselves. Whether in health care we're

about to face a medical breakdown, in

financial matters, maybe we're investing

in the wrong things. We're not listening

to Oral Buffett right now and the the

bubble in AI. Um career-wise, etc. Uh we

will as human beings, we'll want that

advice because we have it today from

professionals. go to doctors, we go to

financial a experts, career advisers,

etc. But tomorrow we're going to go to

machines. Uh and the danger for us is

exposure. Uh can we trust the machine?

Uh and I think the the answer says if we

give you our personal information, we

expect reciprocity. We want something

back. We don't just want a bunch of

adverts. Thank you very much. We want

advice which will really enhance and

change our lives.

And I mentioned this many many years

ago. I met with the founder of Amazon

because they were a clients of EY in the

'9s. And I said, "Congratulations,

you've got two million books on online

today in your catalog are fine. But

which of those books which will

fundamentally change my life?" because I

can order book after book and most of

them are unreadable. Uh if you could

tell me those 10 books, I'd pay well

over the cover price.

He had no answer for that. And today

Amazon has not progressed. It'll give

you some recommendations them

meaningless. Uh they're not going to

cage your life. But I think some time in

the next 10 years that will change

fundamentally because AI will understand

you as an individual. What you like,

what you don't like. Particularly your

access to media is a very strong

indicator of what your likes and

dislikes are are. What you watch on

Netflix, watch what podcasts you listen

to, what uh uh journals you read. This

tells you a lot about your own personal

preferences. So, all of this is going to

be picked up and it's going to be

interpreted hopefully for your benefit.

But, as I say, warning signs beware

>> and that's a bit scary. You know,

you you've been quoted as saying that

your passion is turning good ideas into

cash. Uh there's a lot of companies out

in the world at the moment claiming to

be AI companies. Uh if you were to

advise investors

where to put their money, what sectors

would you suggest uh would be likely to

be most profitable?

So my having lived through the dotcom

boom and bust uh my advice would be

don't go anywhere near

AI startups uh that are pure tech

startups but look at those companies

that really will have strong application

in a particular sector whether it's

retail or it's banking uh and where they

are where they've actually engaged with

serious-minded clients uh because I I

would say you haven't got a business if

you haven't got a customer. Uh that was

not the case in the dotcom boom. Most of

them hadn't got had got any thought

about having a customer only raising

more money. So I think one's got to be

very very cautious at this time. One

thing I will guarantee just like the

digital natives Amazon, Facebook, uh

Meta, we're going to see some mega

organizations emerge. I think in the

next three to five years those big names

are going to start to emerge. They are

going to be much bigger than Nvidia,

Meta that you know the magnificent Zav

are going to become uh a figment of the

past. Uh the new the new guys are going

to be much much bigger. Uh because the

power of AI uh to build and perfect new

business models is enormous. And these

guys who came out of the blue in the

digital era and had you know access to

all the digital capabilities

uh will find it very hard to acqu to

overlay AI whereas the AI natives will

have a you know a massive advantage here

massive leadership advantage and by the

way they won't all be big corporations

uh I guess that in 10 years time we'll

have the first trillionaire who runs a

business with no

That's a really, really, really, really

big claim, Roger. [laughter]

I want to take you up on that in the

next, you know,

>> I'd like to meet this guy. I'd like to

meet him and invest in him.

>> It might be you, Roger. Who knows?

>> I don't think so. My son, by the way,

started in our bedroom and now u has

built a global uh logistics and

e-commerce company from scratch with no

finance.

All right.

>> So, it can be done, but it's not it's

not a trillion. No close. Nowhere close

yet.

>> You know, in um there was this lecture

you this Jeremy Haywood lecture where

you talked about leaving and thriving in

a digital era. And you know, one of the

things you said that was pretty

interesting to me was that several key

technologies will define the next 10 to

15 years. And I suppose of course we are

in the AI era now and that is one of

going to be one of those major

technologies. Um my big question ties

into the conversation about people

losing their jobs, right?

>> Yeah.

>> What human skills do you think would be

most valuable in an AIdriven world?

>> Great question. Um, it's the interface

between the human and the machine which

is so vital and and so powerful. Uh, and

I've seen some good examples of this,

but I've also seen some pretty awful

examples of why people are failing to

exploit the power of the machine. Um,

machines are addictive. Uh, in fact, if

you're doing research, they're

obsessive. You can't stop. Um but the

question is firstly how do you prompt AI

uh to deliver the sort of answers that

you're really looking for and prompting

is going to become a profession. AI

prompters are going to be sought after

like data scientists were sought after

10 years ago. Um the other thing of

course is is the critical reasoning uh

and experience that you have to apply.

Uh and again the problem here is that

many corporations today are not taking

on young people. They're saying okay we

can fill we can fill that gap with AI uh

and hopefully that all our existing

people will become more experienced.

There's going to be a real gap here in

the marketplace of talent and skill that

actually can work alongside AI and and

undertake all the mundane tasks but more

importantly the more value adding tasks

and I think this is the big question

today is what are the jobs of the future

and clearly there's the physical jobs

you can be a nurse you can be a uh a

gardener you can be a plumber uh that's

not going to disappear But in corporate

terms, the whole of that middle layer is

going to be potentially threatened if

not wiped out.

>> And as we look ahead, um, forward

thinking, some personal reflections,

what what do you suggest we tell our

children, right? Because I think that's

the big question. The next generation,

my kids, what do we tell them about AI?

How do we educate them? What's the best

path forward in that realm?

I think we we've got to actually

encourage them to use the sort of skills

that weren't particularly recognized or

welcomed in the corporate world like

creativity, uh innovation, imagination,

imagineering, uh things that were sort

of essentially oh that guy's a maverick.

He's a futurist. He's an imagineer. uh

those are the people who are actually

going to be most important in the new

world because the speed of innovation

particularly around product and service

is going to increase is going to

accelerate uh and AI will enable that to

happen. The question then for young

young kids is how do I develop those

skills? And I was just talking to Sam. I

mean uh Sam and I used to paint. We used

to be uh aspiring artists. Uh and and

those are the things that actually more

important today than they ever were

because one's ability to express oneself

and be creative is going to be the the

key to the future in a way that it isn't

today. If you go into a corporation

today, you have to fit in. You have to

you have to run by the rule book. Um,

but that's not going to add the value in

in the future that uh we would expect.

>> What's your one big advice to um anyone

curious about AI um going into 2026,

including skeptics? You know, you're a

big optimist,

>> but there are also a lot of AI skeptics

and they have sound arguments. So,

what's your one big word advice to all

of us?

>> I think like everything else, you've

just got to get used to it. You've got

to use it and find out what its

strengths and weaknesses are. And uh I I

might have mentioned I've I launched a

project earlier on this year called uh

AI and the human experience. Uh and

instead of hiring a big staff and

getting lots of sponsors, I said I'm

just going to do it myself and I'm going

to use AI to do it for me. Um that was a

real learning experience, believe me. Uh

I have three platforms that I subscribe

to. I ask each one a question. I ask

them to critique each other. Uh I uh

share the the outcomes with uh real

people, human beings. Uh and I'm

learning a lot. Uh I guess being uh

being able to attend training courses. I

noticed Stanford is giving a free

training course on AI machine learning.

Well, I would, you know, that's my next

step. Take that course. Uh, acquire as

much education and knowledge but much

more practical experience. Just get

stuck into it. Uh, ask simple questions.

Uh, even on my WhatsApp, Meta, you know,

gives me some fabulous answers to

questions uh on the fly. Well, I'm just

talking to someone. I'll they'll mention

a word. I'll look it up and there you

are. So, I think it's it's immersing

yourself. That's the secret really. Uh

one day soon you'll stand back and say,

"Now I really see what this this is all

about." But right now, I have no idea.

Roger, thank you so much. This was

thoughtful, clear, and refreshingly

honest. Thank you for sharing

perspective that only decades of lived

experience can give.

>> Thank you both Leah and Sam. I I wish

you success. [music] I hope that in the

next time we talk you'll have a million

subscribers. I'm sure you will.

>> Amen. [music] Roger. Thank you so much

for that. And thank you to everyone

listening. This is machine dreams. More

transparent, unfiltered conversations

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