Ethics in America - Do Unto Others ep. 1

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Annenburgg Media

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with additional support from Equitable

HCA Corporation, the good listening

employee benefits company.

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We we do not all start life on an even

playing field, but the rules are that we

all play it by by the rules of of of

honesty and ethics. Before I took that

case, I had to agree that I would do

anything ethical to defend that man. So,

I'm going to just do the best I can. Is

it imperfect? You bet. Is it awful?

Well, maybe. So, isn't there a point in

a civilized society where one man has to

be willing to step outside the system

and say, "No, I cannot do this because

it's wrong."

I think we're at that point which is

nice in the sense ethically where we

don't have the rules to protect us. We

have to agonize with ourselves and our

conscience.

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On one of our first programs on the

Constitution, Supreme Court Justice

Potter Stewart gently scolded me,

saying, "The trouble with your

profession, journalism, is that you're

all confused about what you have a right

to do under the Constitution

and the right thing to do." Justice

Stewart's admonition is a pretty good

definition of what we mean by ethics.

Sometimes it is very difficult to

discern the right thing to do. And

that's what this 10-p part series is all

about. The hard choices we face when we

make our ethical decisions. In coming

broadcast, a physician is confronted

with a dying pregnant woman. Can the

physician force the mother to undergo

surgery against her will in order to

save the fetus? That's the question. An

innocent man will die. What should the

lawyer do? A soldier can only get vital

information to save his platoon by

torturing a prisoner. Should he do it?

But to understand these tough

professional dilemmas, we think it's

important to begin at the beginning with

the very genesis of all our ethics, the

personal relationships that bind us all

together. parent to child, husband to

wife, friend to friend, friend to

stranger.

As we Americans approach the end of the

20th century, we seem to have lost our

sense of community.

That has left many of us asking the most

fundamental of all ethical questions.

Who are my neighbors and what do I owe

them?

The moderator of this hypothetical case

study is Professor Charles Ogultry.

Mr. Waddton, Robert is a high school

student about to go to college. You are

a friend that he relies on when he wants

to talk about things that concern him.

Robert is very intelligent, but he's

from a poor family.

Robert just received a copy of the

answers for the college college entrance

exam.

And he received that those answers

because a friend of his obtained a copy

illegally, sold it to some other kids,

but gave Robert a copy free. He's taken

the test, and now he's a little

concerned about reporting the scores.

as his friend and confidant.

What do you say to Robert when he comes

to you for advice?

I say to him that he is in a very very

difficult predicament. Um obviously he's

coming to me for advice because he is

conflicted about something that he has

done and I think I'd probably explore

with him what he thinks ought to be done

about what he has what he has done. And

well let's explore it. Um, Robert, what

led you to try to get the answers before

you took the test? I've worked hard all

my life, and I've always wanted to go to

Harvard, and I think I deserve to go to

Harvard, but other kids have an

advantage over me because they can take

another exam that will prepare them uh

for this college entrance test, and it

cost $500. I can't afford it. And I'm

just trying to set things equal. It

certainly is dishonest. Would you not

agree?

Who are you concerned about? Are you

concerned about me? concerned about you

and that is why I'm very deeply

concerned about the actions that you

have taken and would like for you to

think about what you can do now to

rectify what you have done which is not

correct which is unethical. I agree I

think you agree that it is unethical but

you have you see that the means justify

the answer well no I'm asking for advice

Dr. Gayen is Miss Walton giving me sound

advice. I guess I'd start out by saying

that I think you want to go to Harvard

too badly and all your life you're going

to find things you want too badly and if

you don't learn that you don't do

certain things for things you want

badly, you're going to end up doing an

awful lot of bad things. Now that hurts.

I mean what about me? Our friendship and

that sense of loyalty. Well, I guess my

sense of loyalty is shaped by my career

as a psychiatrist. and that is that you

ought to learn the truth very very

early. This has nothing to do with do

with Harvard. This has to do with you're

ready to cut corners for something you

want badly. You should want nothing that

badly. And as far as you're being

disadvantage is probably another

disadvantaged kid that you're cutting

out of Harvard because you cheated. You

can call anything you want, but you

cheated. And you ought to face that now

while you're young and you don't go to

Harvard. A lot of dopes graduated from

Harvard. I can tell you that. You'll go

to the local state school. You'll save

your folks some money and uh and you can

still end up on the Supreme Court

someday. Dr. Coup, what you chose to do

is to take a shortcut, probably an

unnecessary shortcut, and you put some

kind of a goal in your life so far ahead

of ethics and principles and morals that

it's going to plague you the rest of

your life. I'm not worried about what

happens this week or next month or

whether you can go and talk to the dean

at Harvard. But just suppose that you

come to the point four or five years

from now and somebody comes out and

says, "Do you know that Robert cheated

on his SATs?"

You can't afford that. You got to face

it right now. Dr. Peterson, you're the

president of

the superintendent of the high school.

Do you think that I should have some

responsibility to turn in the other 10

students who also got these answers in

advance of the test? Robert, you are a

fine man for having brought this to me.

I've always been proud of you, but I've

never been more proud than I am now. Is

there some way that we can help those

other 10

become the man you can become?

I don't think we ought to turn them in.

But I'd be very pleased if you'd go talk

to them and tell them that my door is

open. So I don't have to turn them in

necessarily. I would hope that you with

your considerable abilities and the and

the respect they have for you might get

them willing to come and talk about it.

If they won't, come on back and we'll

talk later about what we ought to do

after that. Father Hair is

is he going far enough with me on this

in terms of my 10 other friends? I mean

I think what's interesting is that if

you look at the two sets of of moral

arguments that have been made with you

they have encompassed the two major ways

we think about morality. On the one hand

some arguments have been you might call

it utilitarian. They say if you don't do

what's right sooner or later you may pay

for it. Another set of arguments is you

ought to do what's right because of the

impact it has on you as a person. So

we've now brought together the two major

ways that we think about right and wrong

and say in this case you are bound by

both. Now that's a lot to absorb for a

17-year-old. We then want to take the

next step and say that ethics is never

just about persons. It is always about

society. I hope you come away with a

sense that there is a set of social

bonds that bind us together that can be

injured by cheating. But I don't know

that I place on you the obligation to

solve the larger social question. Okay,

Miss Elby, should I turn in the other 10

students? No, I don't think you should

turn in the other students. But I would

also tell you that there is a third

reason apart from what this might do to

you down the line, unless of course you

intend to have a career in politics, in

which case it's probably very common or

history has shown it to be,

or what it might do to your your soul,

if you will. There is a third part and

that is the fact that as a society we

have come to the conclusion that

cheating is wrong

and you cannot give without expecting to

get back what you have given and if you

are not willing to give honesty you

cannot expect to get it you cannot

expect to get it from your politicians

from your co-workers from your family

and

that alone has to make you know that

what you have done is you have cheated

hated and you must do something about

that. Dr. Gay, is that right? Don't turn

in the friends. Isn't that harmful to

the community? I think uh you have a

point. It does seem strange for ethics

to just be uh involved with our own

personal conscience in our own personal

life since we are political creatures.

As Aristotle says, you destroy the

community, we'll all shrivel on the

vine. So, I think you sense something. I

guess what most of us are saying to you

is u it's a big burden at 17 and the

crime isn't quite that heenous a crime.

There are times in which I would say you

better just turn them in. Cheating on

the exams I guess would be the

borderline one of the border lines. Uh

but I wouldn't put that burden on you.

Now Justice Cle how would you advise

Robert to handle this problem? Well,

first of all, Robert, I'm not at all

impressed by the fact that that you

didn't have the $500. I mean, um uh why

not? Uh

well, I mean, that argument would uh

would would justify you're going out and

stealing the $500. You could have done

it that way. In fact, that probably

would have been a better way to do it

because then it' be a lot easier to get

you out of this problem. You could just

uh you know, pay back the $500 from

wherever you stole it. It's very hard to

pay back the cheated exam. Mhm. Um, but

you you you wouldn't have thought of

stealing the $500, would you, Robin? No,

I don't think so. I don't. Well, so

therefore, the mere fact that you don't

have the 500 and somebody else does

doesn't allow you to to make things

even, right? Does it mean that life is

just um you you play the card you Yeah.

There are other people who have the

$5,000 but don't have the brains. Now,

are they as justified as in cheating as

you are? They could make the same

argument. Look at these people. You

know, I was born with money, but they

were born with brains. I I got to even

things up. The way I'll do it is I'll

cheat in the exam. I mean, you know, we

we do not all start life on an even

playing field, but the rules are that we

all play it by by the rules of of of

honesty and ethics. Now, what you do

about the other 10? Um, I was I was

asking myself, I I I I don't think you

should turn them in. I I don't know why.

Um, I think I have an obligation to

rectify a a a discernable a discernable

deprivation of something uh uh taking

from someone else of something that that

person was entitled to. I don't know

whom you identify as the victim of uh of

uh of the cheating. Father, is this

advice I'm getting from Justice Scalia a

distinction without a difference?

No, I think that in the beginning of the

conversation, you were trying to deal

with the lottery of life by breaking the

rules. I think there's a lottery of life

that is not fair. We then try and set up

rules of fairness to govern

relationships within a lottery that's

unfair. Part of what people have been

saying is that it's an enormously

valuable lesson for you to learn to play

by the rules within an unfair lottery.

Justice Scalia, you're my father

and I come to you to have this

conversation.

Once again, I I don't know whom you whom

you um recompense. There's there there's

no identifiable victim that I can tell

you to go and make amends to. Is that

what you'd advise me? I'd advise you to

retake the exam and use your second

score in future applications. Now, that

may mean you'll have to be out of

college for for half a year when you'd

rather be there, but uh that's the

that's the price of your folly. Well,

Dad, as you said, I'm getting older and

I should be more responsible. I'm going

to disregard that advice. Um I'm going

to use the scores. This is one mistake

I've made and I'm aware of it and I'm

I'm working my way through it. But

they're giving you a scholarship, are

they? Yes.

Right.

Exactly.

You mean this check is no good?

What? Are you going to turn me in?

That's a hard question, isn't it?

Yes, Dad.

You know, I think I will, but I'm doing

it more for your own good. Well, I think

I have some some not just somehow goes

beyond my normal obligation to the rest

of the society. Um, I ought to see that

you get what you deserve for for being a

bad person. Is there something immoral

about what I'm doing? Oh, of course

there is. Of course there. You're lying.

And I came to you with the sense that

you might understand. I do understand. I

I also assume you came to me with the uh

with the thinking that I'd uh I'd do

what's best for you. I assume that's why

you came to me rather than to some

stranger. And I, as your father, am

confident that I am doing what's best

for you by holding over your head the uh

the threat that if you don't uh do

what's right, I'll do it for you. I've

never done anything like this before.

Won't you allow me one indiscretion in

life? Just once. father to son. I But

I've allowed you the indiscretion. I'm

not going to going to

report you to the police for all I know

that it may may violate some uh uh theft

by fraud. Who knows? I'm I'm not going

that far. I am just refusing to allow

you to profit from what you did wrong.

Perhaps we could could have a family

discussion about this and decide that

maybe you should not go to Harvard on

these test results and that you should

sit out a semester and retake the test

as a condition because you know there

are consequences to breaking the moral

or the ethical code.

Well, I think I'm going to follow this

advice. In fact, Robert follows the

advice. He does not use the scores. He

takes the test again and he gets into

Harvard. In fact, he grows up. Uh, he's

married. He marries Carol. Uh, they have

a good relationship. Mr. Goodman, you

are a good friend of Robert. In fact, he

comes to you a lot for advice.

You happen to know that Robert is having

an affair.

Will you talk to Robert? Sure,

I would. What would you say to it? Um,

depending how obvious it was, uh,

perhaps we work together. And I'd say,

you know, Robert, a lot of people at the

office are, um, uh, noticing your

friendship with, uh, Denine. Well,

Ellen, I'm not sure that's any of your

business.

Okay, I stop at that point. I mean, I

don't think I'm I might I might not have

even put it that forthrightly. Well, how

could you not bring it up? Well, I

already said I would bring it up

loosely, but if he said to me, uh, back

off, I'd probably back off. Miss Smith,

there's always another day.

Um, I feel that, uh, these moral choices

um really uh reflect the kind of uh way

of living and values that you want to

see uh extent in the world. And I would

feel that uh that adultery is not a very

good value. As a matter of fact, it's uh

uh one against one of the ten

commandments. So I I would want you to

think about the kind of character that

you're building by doing this and uh

also uh what kind of a world you

envision for uh that kind of behavior.

Miss Smith, you know me. I care dearly

about Carol and this relationship

will end in time. I just want you to

give me some time. Will you do that?

Yeah. Will you also not tell Carol?

Yeah. Great.

[Laughter]

Miss Quinnland,

did you talk to Robert? Yeah. Let's

talk.

Listen, honey.

Um,

I think a lot of people are talking

about you and Denine.

Maybe none of my business, but let me

tell you, if I've noticed it, other

people have noticed it. And the other

people who have noticed it may do what I

wouldn't do, and that's that they're

going to tell your wife. So, if you

value your marriage, I'd suggest that

you stop this right now. Well, you're

not going to tell Carol. I'm not going

to tell Carol. Okay. So, I I'm put I'm

putting you on notice. Um, but I don't

want to be unnecessarily hurtful and

maybe it will blow over very quickly at

which point it wouldn't serve any

purpose um to tell Carol necessarily.

Um, but I want to put you on notice.

You're my friend. You deserve that for

me. I I I assume I don't break off the

affair.

Is there anyone here willing to talk to

Carol? No. Anyone do that? Why, Miss

Wson? Why would we want to talk to your

wife? Doesn't she have a right to know

that her husband is being disloyal? Not

through my my sharing that with her. Um

and I I don't know that she has a right

to know that uh her husband is being

disloyal. Um it seems to me that these

are very private matters between

individuals and um I I don't know the

basis on which one would would butt into

the private affairs of of of their

friends. But it's wrong, isn't it?

Wrong. It may be wrong, but I don't see

myself as a savior to go around cleaning

up the world of all wrong. Um and those

are personal matters. And and what right

might I to intervene in your personal

life? I'll tell you what I won't do

though, Robert. If I am your friend and

Carol's friend, I won't be sitting down

at your dinner table anymore. I will not

put myself in the position of having to

choose if I know about your infidelity,

whether you told me or whether I found

out. And if I am equally good friends

with Carol,

all I can do is to step out of this

friendship. Isn't that a copout? Isn't

that a copout? Why would no one go to

Carol and say, "Carol, you have a right

to know that your husband is abusing the

marital relationship." Are you certain

she has a right to know? There is a

right to innocence, but there is but

there's not a right for is for me as

your friend to live the lie of your

infidelity.

And I must say, Robert, as long as we're

on the subject, after what you did at

Harvard and now this, I'm almost

positive you're running for office.

What about let me give you a little

different fact. You you're having lunch

with Carol and Carol saying, "Our

relationship is just great. In fact,

it's so great that I've decided that I'm

no longer going to use birth control

devices that Bob and I are going to have

a child." You're moving closer to a

border that we all, I think, make on our

ethical issues. There's the there's the

first and the simplest of doing no harm,

and then there's the whole other thing

of doing good. And the rules are just

different from those things. So that

when you say uh I don't want to do any

harm, that doesn't mean me mean

necessarily I have an obligation to do

good. And you were trying to put on us

an obligation to do good. You have

shifted to a different moral universe

because now you're talking about our

doing harm or at least being accessory

to doing harm and that brings a whole

new set of standards and a whole new set

of values into our mind. Is that right,

Dr. Coup? Would you tell Carol? I would

never tell Carol unless Carol came and

asked me, then I couldn't lie to her.

You would never tell Carol.

Even if

Carol were your daughter,

everybody always put somebody into my

family in these situations.

If Carol were my daughter, yes, I'd have

exactly the same uh feeling toward Carol

in that situation that I had toward you,

a very very close friend that I looked

on as my son when you got in that

Harvard mess. I would tell her, but I

take I'd take you with me

and we'd talk it out. Justice Scalia,

would you tell your daughter Carol?

I expect I would. Why?

Um

I think that uh uh there are all sorts

of uh concentric circles around us as

individuals and there are some people to

whom we have a a greater obligation than

to others. Uh some to whom it is not as

as was put earlier uh by by Dr. Galen,

not just an obligation not to do harm,

but affirmatively an obligation to

protect or to do good or whatnot. And I

think that's the kind of an obligation I

would feel to my daughter in this case,

just as I felt a special obligation to

rat on you when you were my son, Bob. Uh

although I wouldn't have done so uh were

you not my son. Um I think that's what

makes the difference. We have different

degrees of responsibility to different

uh different people in the in in the

society. If this cow were my daughter, I

would go to her and say, "You know that

Robert's a skunk."

And he's he's been showing himself to be

one right from that day that he uh took

those test results and copied them. And

you were to get out of this relationship

as soon as possible. You wouldn't

hesitate. No, not if you were my

daughter. I'm not sure that it might not

be a good idea for me to go to Robert

and say, you know, I'm I have come into

knowledge into the knowledge of this.

I'm very disturbed about it. I don't

want to interfere in your in your

marital uh lives even though she is my

daughter and I think you really ought to

know that you're threatening the

well-being. I mean just to disclose it

does it mean that it's good or that for

that matter it would be constructive?

Fay has now entered into a uh secret

relationship with her son-in-law that

excludes her daughter. Not necessarily.

I have not said that I would not

necessarily go to my daughter

eventually. But what I am saying is to

confront my daughter blackmail that I go

to him and say to him that I think that

you are engaged in activity that is is

very damaging and potentially harmful to

my daughter and this is something that

that I'm very disturbed about and I

really think that you ought to consider.

It could be a passing phase that it

could I mean we say we all say that we

would we would disconnect ourselves from

individuals whom we know are involved in

in infidelities. That means that we

would disconnect ourselves from

threearters of the human race. it seems

to me adult population and I don't know

that we all go about busying ourselves

to disclose what we know about their

about their private and personal

conduct. I'd also be very concerned if

it was my daughter and I this is purely

selfish. I would be really concerned

about the kill the messenger syndrome. I

would be afraid that I would poison my

relationship with my daughter who would

never be able to forget that I was

someone who came in and told her the

worst news she'd ever heard in her life.

And and while I understand the point

about entering into a conspiracy with

Robert, and I don't like that one bit, I

think I might have a little bit of a

tendency to say, "Listen, Buster, I know

about this." And you can call it

blackmail. I'm perfectly happy with that

turn of phrase. And and if you don't if

you don't straighten up and tell her or

get out, um then I'm real inclined to do

it. I want to talk to you, Miss Watson.

I'm Nancy.

I'm 15 years old. I'm precocious, uh,

very mature, very intelligent. Uh, and

I've got something I want to tell you

about. You are the one person that I

admire and look up to, and I want to

talk to you, and I want to tell you a

wonderful secret.

You're involved with my son-in-law. Can

we talk?

But I can't tell you unless you tell me

you're going to promise. I can't promise

you. You can't? Well, then you're not my

friend.

Miss Goodman,

I really trust your judgment and that's

something I want to tell you. I'm so

happy and excited about it. I only talk

on the record.

I just want a trust. Will anyone

give me some trust?

Why don't you trust me to make a

judgment as to whether why is it secret?

Okay, fine. I'll I think I can trust

you. I'm having the most wonderful

relationship with this guy. His name is

Robert.

He's 30. He's married,

but he tells me that that relationship

was going to end at some point.

Uh, I know I'm only 15. I know my

parents wouldn't understand, but I

thought you would understand.

Grown cry. Um,

I think I would start uh this

conversation by hopefully not exhibiting

the degree of anxiety that I feel and I

would try to do a a little bit of factf

finding.

Anxiety? I just told you that I'm in

love.

Yes. What What's the anxiety? You should

be delighted. Love and anxiety are not

mutually exclusive.

I would advise you very strongly to talk

to your own parents

and to stop having this relationship

with Robert. Look, I came to you with

the hope that you would understand my

dilemma.

I I didn't expect you to ask me to talk

to my parents. I I chose not to go to my

parents because I know they won't

understand. I I thought that you would.

But you've already now described it as a

dilemma. When you first came in here,

you said it was just a happy,

problem-free association. Why is

everybody taking a 15year-old girl? So,

why are you so afraid of this 15year-old

just because she just because she

manipulates you by telling you that she

trusts you, which she no doubt. I don't

feel what I'm trying Why are you so Why

are you so afraid of her? Why don't you

say to her, "Listen, punk. You don't

know what the hell you're doing."

Because that ends the conversation. Excu

That's right. Excuse me, please. I I now

have to get on the phone to my friend

Robert and tell him that if he doesn't

leave you alone, I'm gonna call the

cops.

Well, I think what are we pussyfooting

around with this 15year-old kid for? My

god. Well, I don't agree that I'm

pussy-footing around. What I'm trying to

do at the moment is not sever the

conversation to the extent where the

15year-old hits the road and I have no

further impact or conversation with this

kid. It's I I have zero qualms at uh I

don't think she hit the road having a

problem. What would you advise Miss

Helby? This is tough. Um, I I would I

would try not to close the door here

because I want I think you've come to me

with this because you want something

whether it whether you want to call it

advice or not. It's not just that simple

or you would be announcing it to the

world. You're quite aware that there are

problems.

What do you think are the chances of

this relationship of yours with Robert

working built on this basis of him

losing his job, leaving his wife,

hurting his children,

and you probably having to leave school?

I'm convinced that Robert and I will be

in love, and that's the most important

thing. On historical evidence, I don't

think you can be quite convinced of

that. I wish I had the answer to this. I

don't I am very much concerned that

you're lying to yourself and know you're

lying to yourself.

Do you not think it's possible that you

are painting a pretty picture for

yourself? It looks pretty to me now.

Yes, it does look pretty to you now

through your 15year-old eyes. It looks

very pretty.

I want you to sit and imagine Carol's

35year-old face. Wait a minute. People

keep giving me Carol's problems. I'm not

concerned about Carol. I may be Carol.

I'm not Carol now. I love Robert. Why do

I have to carry the burden of Carol and

worrying about that relationship? If you

love Robert, you must share that burden.

Do you think he will come to you totally

unencumbered by the past? Father Hair,

do I have to be concerned about what

impact my relationship with Robert will

have on his wife? Yes. Why? Because

Robert is tied to his wife. So you are

engaged with someone who is already tied

to someone else's existence. And at 15,

you're old enough to understand that.

And so we've got to be able to talk

about not only what's going to happen to

you, but what's happening in a wider

circle. So I have to agonize over the

effect of this relationship on Carol.

Agonizing is only the beginning. What

you've got to do is make some decisions.

And it's clear that uh it is it is just

feudal to let a 15year-old talk about

their happiness without talking about

the impact they're having on other

people. They're old enough to know. I

mean, they know that much. Rabbi

Goodman, you're in a supermarket

buying your groceries, minding your own

business,

and you happen to see a mother and child

going through the line, and the mother

hauls off and pops the kid. Are you

going to intervene

uh in the supermarket? Uh in that

context, uh it might cause more problems

if I u interveneed unless it became a

matter of another pop and I were seeing

a kid beat up. You see the kid slapped

the second time.

What are you thinking? Let me hear you.

I'm thinking that here's a mother that

is really stressed that has a real

problem with her anger. Uh that this is

probably the tip of an iceberg. Um so

I'm real concerned. Of course, could you

imagine having a conversation with the

mother after the second slab? I could

see um

asking if there was a problem, some way

basically that I might be able to uh

intervene in terms of kind of cutting

the tension, not solving the problem

perhaps, but at least allowing her to

know that there are consequences of

doing this in a public setting. Well,

I'm the mother. What What do you want to

say to me? Seems to me that uh your kid

is really hurting. Is there a problem?

Yes. He's disobedient. As long as you're

willing to talk to me. What did he do?

He picked up some um bleach and opened

it and poured it on the floor. It seems

to me that you've really

um hurt your child. What? I punished my

child for opening a can of bleach, a

bottle of bleach in the store and

pouring on the floor. What's wrong with

that?

The kid at this point is biting your

leg. That's right. He is a real terror.

That's easy. I step on the kid. Let's

talk about how hard we hit this kid. I

mean, there's a major thing to be Let's

talk about It's not enough to say I hit

the kid or she hit the kid. How hard how

hard does it have to be for you to

intervene? I I think that it has to be

that there are sever they're damaging

this child. I mean, I grew up in a

family where I was popped on my bottom

in in the act of doing it. My parents

believed in swift and immediate justice

without appeal. Um, and I raised two

kids by myself and I took two children,

two children one year apart, one and two

years old to the grocery store all the

time. And yeah, one is pouring the

bleach and the other is chewing your leg

or chewing the bleach.

And a wamp across the bottom of a child

is not the same thing as child abuse.

And I I I I think the rabbis put in a

peculiar position here to to judge it as

if it were because it it is a judgment

call of how hard it is. I'm assuming

that that wasn't just a general we're

talking about is not what I had in mind,

but it's one that you heard and one that

you responded to. If Rabbi Guttman

really believes that it wasn't just a

slap across the bottom, but it was a

blow, a beat up, then he's really got me

confused. Then he's got bought the

social that the first response if he

really thinks this child was being

abused and beaten up is to ask the

mother if his she's in some distress

to be concerned is such a topsyturvy yes

world of social worker psychology

psychiatry mentality that it shows where

the moral bankruptcy is occurring. A

child is being beaten. Where the hell

are the values here? You're going to

walk up to a stranger and stop the

beating? Oh, if if I take Rabbi Gutman's

assumption that this just isn't a whack

across the tush, but as a fist in the

jaw, you're damn right I will. What are

you going to say? I'll say leave that

child alone. Are you going to intervene?

I probably am and have intervened in in

similar situations. But I'm gonna

acknowledge one other thing, which is my

intervention may not be to the benefit

of the kid because when she gets the kid

home, she may beat

the kid more uh because you know it

flows downhill as they say. But unless

you really unless this kid is black and

blue, has bruises, and has had a long

record at the hospital, there's a point

at which you're not going to be able to

protect this kid any further. That's a

very delicate situation. Well, what's

what's the ethical decision we're

making? Well, there is a moral dilemma

here. I mean, that that hasn't been

articulated. Uh we do respect family

integrity. The family is still a

structure of our society. we don't cast

everything or I hope to God we aren't

going to continue the process of casting

all moral and ethical issues into the

legislature and into litigation. So

there is a family which can go wrong but

up until now has been one of the social

forces that has served us reasonably

well in modern times. The other value

that we have to be concerned about is

family autonomy, if there is such a

thing or family integrity. And we're

just chipping away at it constantly now

by bringing the courts, the legislatores

into things that used to always be

family problem. Justice Scalia, I think

we all have um it seems to me some

special responsibility for the young in

society because they are they are

helpless. with the young uh we all have

some special responsibility which it

seems to me maybe declining reason. I

remember when I was when I was younger

and and and was misbehaving myself on

the bus or something or putting my feet

up on the seats, it would be common and

taken as not at all a miss for for an

adult there to say, "Young man, take

your feet down off the seat." That's not

what buses are about. And uh it was sort

of a joint responsibility both to uh to

teach the young and to take care of the

young. Uh so uh that's a general

responsibility but superimpose on that

there's a much much uh more immediate

responsibility of the family and what

we've been debating here I think is uh

where does the more general

responsibility have to yield and say

well you know u uh I ought to stay out

of it uh and I think the point at which

you get into it is when the law is being

broken. Miss Quinnland,

I am a homeless person and you see me on

the streets. I come up to you and I ask

you,

can you spare a quarter? I usually buy

you a tuna fish sandwich. Well, I I I

don't want you to buy me a tuna fish

sandwich. In fact, I'm allergic to tuna

fish. I want a quarter. You give me a

quarter, probably. Okay. I also would

like for you to assist me

getting across the street. Could you do

that for me? Sure.

And could you kind of help me up the

block about two blocks?

Sure. Okay. Actually, that's the

apartment building where you live,

right? Right. I am very tired and sweaty

and worn out. Can I come up to your

apartment, take a shower? No.

Why not?

Because that's the point at which I'm

going to draw the privacy line for

myself. Um, I'll do everything I can to

try to get you some sort of appropriate

shelter, appropriate place to take a

shower, but I'm not going to let you

into my house. Why not? I don't know you

well enough. I don't know you well

enough. I don't know whether you're

dangerous. I don't know whether you have

a criminal record. I don't know whether

you might You didn't know that when you

gave me a quarter. Well, that's giving

you a quarter doesn't put me at risk and

walking you down the street doesn't put

me at risk. But why did you do it? Why

did you give me a quarter?

because I thought that you probably

needed it to buy something to eat or

drink. Tell me, you know, tell me

exactly. I said, can you spare a

quarter? And what are you saying to

yourself when you reach in your purse

and give me a quarter? I'm saying this

man has no money. Anything else? He's

probably hungry. Anything else? He

probably needs a shot. He might buy

booze. Is that important?

It's one of those ideas I'm not crazy

about, which is why I was going to buy

you the tuna fish sandwich.

I'm allergic to tuna fish, but I I have

an interest. I have an Sorry, Rabbi.

I'm allergic to tuna fish, but I have a

unquenchable appetite

for white wine.

Think you buy me a bottle of wine? No.

Why not? Because I think it's bad for

you. Wait a minute.

I'm asking you to buy me a bottle of

wine. Are you going to make a judgment

of what's good and what's bad for me?

Mhm. Because I'm paying.

But I thought you were doing this out of

a sense of concern for me. When I gave

you the quarter, I had the sense of

concern that you might be hungry. But

when you asked for the white wine, the

sense of concern is overtaken by my

refusal to participate in your slow

destruction of yourself. Is she making

the right decision, Miss Mr. Levy?

I think for her values that's a

perfectly appropriate decision. I think

each person has to wrestle with the idea

of how one gives to another person who

is in need. I would give the person

money, I wouldn't necessarily ask what

it's for. If you said to me you're going

to use it for wine, I would feel sorry.

Uh and probably the next time I saw you,

I I wouldn't give money to you, but I

give it to the next homeless person on

the street. Uh but it's it's very

difficult to impose one's own sense of

morality on others. You're but you are

in some sense imposing your values on me

in determining whether you'll give me

money by deciding how I'm going to use

it. What I meant is that so many people

ask me for money on the street in New

York that I have a dilemma in who to

give money to. Mr. Levy, I'm shivering

because I need a drink and you can help

me more than any other way by giving me

a dollar to get a drink. Are you going

to give it to me? I never give more than

50 cents. Will you give me 50 cents to

get a drink? Yes. This time, Reverend

Shriber, give me 50 cents to get a

drink. Not if I know that's how you'll

use it. I see again the tip of that

iceberg of a growing major problem in

this society. And I go home and mourn

for the fact that we have the richest

country in the world, which doesn't have

apparently enough resources to put a

roof over the head of growing numbers of

people in our midst.

Rabbi Kerman, would you give me a

dollar? No, not if uh that was uh what

you asked for, a dollar for a drink. I

would tell you why. A dollar. Cuz the

man needs a drink. He also needs a home.

And I would also give money to defeat

the policies of the government that want

to use our money for defense weapons

instead of finding homes for these

people. It's not up to me to judge how

the man is going to spend the money

anymore than it is up to me to judge how

the man got there.

The man's in need. I can give him money.

Maybe I can't take him home, but I can

give him money. I mean, if you're

talking about giving to someone on the

street, you're talking about a a fairly

general blind charity to begin with. I

don't think that they ought to have to

go through a checklist of how they plan

to spend what is not even the price of a

Subway token. The man's got his needs.

If I got 50 cents, he can have them. Dr.

Coup, would you give me a dollar for a

drink? I probably would, and you'd be

surprised at that. But, uh, I'm

delighted at that. early part of um of

my career in medicine, I used to

supervise medical students uh dealing

with uh people on Skid Row. And I found

that it was practically impossible to

turn them from whatever their bent was.

And therefore, if you're honest enough

to tell me that you need a drink and I

can help you over the next whatever, in

as much as I can't do the whole story, I

would probably give it to you. Dr.

Gayen, would you give me a dollar? No.

Uh, well, I presume there's two parts.

Would I or should I? Uh, no, I wouldn't

give it to you. And two, I don't think I

should give it to you. Why I don't give

it? I don't give it because I guess it's

the last vestage of my Marxist

preubescence

in which we were taught not to give

private charities because it tended to

encourage uh societal uh uh ignoring of

problems.

Why should I give you a dollar? How do I

know? What do you need it for? Cuz I'm

hungry. Because I need a drink. Uh,

well, I don't know. I don't have a place

to live. And a dollar is going to help

you. It's a start. So, we'll put a turn

style up. Maybe maybe I can have and we

can ask each person to give you a

dollar. If you give me 20, that would

make things move a lot faster. Uh, but

that's precisely the point. I could give

you $50

and save you for and I could afford

that, too. The question is, I mean, I

don't know what you need. I don't know

whether you need food, a drink,

uh psychotherapy,

uh a home, uh all of the above, uh maybe

insulin that you're diabetic. I don't

know. You never give it to me under any

circumstances. In no circumstances do I

give the dollar to the hustlers that and

every day even now it doesn't mean that

if I found someone shivering in the uh

in the street uh lying without a blanket

I might not do more but you're talking

about the street person who comes up to

you and asks for a dollar. I don't know

what is served except a cheap service to

my conscience. I got another e code uh

which says to me that uh if someone asks

you give and u that's based on a a

principle that I get out of my own faith

and uh if a man is hungry a woman is

hungry shivering cold or needs a drink

uh I will give and I will give what I

can if I have a dollar I will give a

dollar and if I have $10 I will give 10.

Would he behave differently if the

person asking for the dollar was seven

years old?

I would want to know the same thing from

the seveny old is the 60-year-old.

I want to know what they're doing in the

street. To give a sevenyear-old a

dollar, you can't even buy a baloney

sandwich.

To give the dollar or the $10 and then

walk away feeling he's done some service

seems to me begging the major issue of

what's a sevenyear-old doing on the

street? What's a homeless person doing

there? And it's all of us giving our

dollars and our quarters and our this is

and our that make us go home and sleep

nuts. Yeah. But the seven-year-old can't

eat the major issue. The seven-year-old

can eat a box of special K if you give

them the money. I agree with Dr. Galen.

The larger question is do we change the

society and make an investment? I don't

know that that seven-year-old child

doesn't have a perfectly fine home who

and and doesn't have food to eat. uh

that may simply want to go out and

panhandle or whether we have a society

that that assures a decent living and a

decent standard for all of its citizens.

I don't see I don't see that there's any

contradiction

uh between the idea that society

undertakes uh certain obligations to

look after its members who cannot look

after themselves for one reason or

another and private charity. I think Dr.

Galen, it is time for you to give up

your preubescent

Marxist notion. I remember it very well

from my own preubescence.

The idea that private charity is somehow

bad news. I think the loss of the notion

of people actually you a living person

handing over something of substance to

him another living person. The loss of

this idea is a terrible loss. Is that

your definition of private charity?

Handing over a buck or to take Mr. Levy,

maybe he doesn't earn that much. Excuse

me. It was the excuse to the hungry

person next. It was the excuse you gave

for not giving money. You said because

charity is uh is in principle a bad

idea. No, I I did not say that. There's

all sorts of private charities to which

I give time, money, and effort. I find

the quick buck on the street serves the

vanities and the needs of the bourgeoa

person who's walking down the street and

doesn't solve a damn thing except allows

you to go home at night and say how

swell you are as compared with Dr. Galen

who's a stingy miser and is not giving

anything to in this day and age it saves

lives. Now you got to hear what I'm

saying to you. I'm telling you that it

saves lives. It may not save a lot. It

may not save as many as we want, but it

saves lives. It prevents homes from

being uh vandalized, but it all it also

does more than that. It also causes us

to recognize that there is some sense in

each one of us being challenged to do

something ourselves and not ask the

person to whom we give, what are you

going to do with the money, but asking

those who have so much how is it that I

got so much of this and this person

doesn't have any. Well, I can tell you

one about your life saving. I was at the

station on 125th Street from which I

commute. A 17 or 18 year old boy who's a

regular there came up to me and asked me

for his usual dollar. I didn't give it.

He went up to about a 62 year old woman,

probably a cleaning woman, and he said

to her, "Give me a couple of bucks." And

she opened up her purse and she gave him

a couple of bucks. And then she started

shaking and getting tearary and said,

"Uh uh, you'd think a boy that age could

get a job somewhere." Then I said, "Why

did you give the money? Why did you give

the money?" She said, "Sure, you don't

have to give the money. You're white and

you're big, etc. But I'm afraid if you

weren't here and I didn't give the

money, he'd push me off the platform.

He'd take it." So you're saying, if I

understand your ethical philosophy, give

the money so the boy doesn't push her

off the platform. Exactly. Is that your

moral message? Give the money so the boy

doesn't push her off the platform

because and if she recognizes that if

she hadn't given the money and even even

even in the midst of giving the money,

she may have been pushed off the

platform. But there is something that I

can do immediately until I run out of

money. But we're also asking too much of

this problem. Uh because we cannot

immediately solve all national problems

of poverty. We feel paralyzed. And it

strikes me that it's good for us on

occasion to do things which are not

costefficient,

which are not even guaranteed effective,

but somehow express commonality. There

are people who will fall through the

cracks otherwise who without our

individual help on the street won't

live. Simply won't live. And it seems to

me that that if we know that those

people exist and they can't eat without

getting a quarter, 50 cents or whatever

from us, then we have to help them. I'd

rather help run a soup kitchen then

depend on that dollar that I give away.

But there's no contradiction in helping

to run the soup kitchen and seeing a

mother and two children on the subway

who don't have a place to sleep that

night and are going back and forth on

the Ara and the woman says to you, "I'm

hungry." And handing her $10. There's no

contradiction between concerted

organized social action and the

individual acts which some of us make.

Uh Justice Scalia, one final issue. The

homeless person followed you home and

she likes it so much she's there every

day

and you know you come out in the morning

and said, "Hi, got another dollar for

me." And sometimes you give and

sometimes you don't. But there's a

problem. There's a tenants association

meeting tonight because your tenants

aren't too pleased with your new friend.

She is very belligerent. Uh she's

aggressive with the tenants during the

day. At night, she sleeps behind the

apartment building in the alley. She

defecates. She sleeps on a piece of

cardboard. Uh she burns money. And the

tenant association is meeting tonight

and they want to take a vote.

We want to call to have the police

remove this homeless person from our

apartment building. Just have the cops

take care. They'll take care of it. It's

their problem. It's no longer the

apartment building's problem. No, I

wouldn't go along with just that without

without looking to see that something is

going to happen to take care of this

woman. Dr. Gayen, how would you vote? I

think I'd go along with Judge Kala on

this. I uh um I don't know what that

what I'm giving that woman by allowing

her there defecating in the uh in the or

I don't know what I'm giving her. Uh I

also am uh one of a minority uh

shrinking minority of um psychiatrists

who feel that there is such a thing as

mental illness and that there are people

who are as irresponsible in a certain

way as children are. And while I would

hate to call the police, uh what we have

been driven to by those fervent

defenders of civil liberties and

autonomy is that we dare not call them

sick. So the alternative to taking them

into a facility where they can be

treated is to send them to jail. Mr.

Levy, well, I think it's interesting

that Dr. Galen assumes that this person

is mentally ill. And if if if the uh

solution to her housing problem is to

call the police, I think we're barking

up the wrong tree. If she hasn't

committed a crime and she's not

dangerous to other people, not harming

other people, I don't think that the

police have the right to remove her.

She's a blight to the neighborhood. We

are saying it's uncomfortable for us to

have to walk by and deal with her every

day asking for money. Well, it should be

uncomfortable to us. We should but we

shouldn't try to hide our social

problems in jails or in mental

hospitals. Is she schizophrenic? Is it

not? Have you not considered the

possibility that she is? Uh if it's not

proper to put them in hospitals, I don't

know what it is proper to do with it.

But don't we have two questions here?

first when society can permissibly

intervene to take someone off the street

and I would draw the line at when

someone is either commits a crime or is

dangerous and secondly how can we help

that person and the way to help that

person so far has not been to lock

people up in in mental hospitals because

often there aren't places for them to go

afterwards you were prepared to protect

the infant why won't you protect the

infantile regressed adult I'm not I

never claimed all of them were sick I

will allow that some I will tell you my

biases is that most why is it that you

would prefer their freezing to death in

the streets. Uh if if she is in medical

danger, yes, you can do something about

her. But I don't think we should

automatically assume that anyone who

lives on the street is crazy. In fact,

many homeless people think that to live

in the city shelters in some cities is

crazy. Problem is that they don't have

reasonable alternatives. Father, have we

established any kind of set of ethical

priorities in making these decisions?

I don't know that they're easily

summarized. Uh I I think in every case

you played out all afternoon, there was

a presumption of a bond among the

actors. I think there were all the way

running through was a sense that you

neither want to try to institutionalize

every moral responsibility we have nor

do we want to leave the whole world an

open space where people come to

recognize their moral responsibilities

or don't do anything. that the middle

ground we're trying to find is the place

at which you can institutionalize those

responsibilities

that basically I would call public

order. But then beyond that minimal

public order, you really are dependent

upon trying to shape people's moral

responsibilities. So they will respond

to human needs when they don't have to

by law, but when they ought to by moral

responsibility. And in that kind of

society, I think you've hit the balance

between public and private that you'd

like.

Hubert Humphrey once said that the

ethical test of a society is how it

treats those who are in the dawn of

life, the children, those who are in the

twilight of life, the aged, and those

who are in the shadows of life, the sick

and the needy, and we could add the

homeless.

As Father Hair suggested, it's difficult

sometimes to balance society's

obligation to care for its members

against our own personal duty to give

help and comfort to those around us.

Next week, we follow the ethics of

lawyers and judges through a

hypothetical murder case. When a

client's life hangs in the balance, is

everything fair game?

Try to join us.

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