Robert Greene on Ego Traps, The Art of Control, & How to Stay Irreplaceable

You have to understand that people don't

naturally want to buy your product. They

don't want to listen to your music. They

don't want to read your books. They're

not interested in how do you seduce them

into doing that is the name of the game.

>> Robert Green is the mastermind behind 48

laws of power. One of the most

controversial and influential strategy

books ever written. His frameworks have

shaped how top executives and

entrepreneurs think about power and

strategy.

>> Human behavior is compulsive and

obsessive. You might think that

analytics, data is going to drive your

company. That's certainly a part of it.

But the social aspect is equally, if not

more important. In this episode, Robert

breaks down the psychological mind games

that determine who wins and loses in

business. If you can't control your own

mouth, then what can you control? You

can't control your emotions. You can't

control your behavior. It signals

weakness and insecurity. We dive into

the art of strategic thinking. Why most

people completely misunderstand power

and the mental models you need to

position yourself for success.

>> This is the most important law that I

want you to engrave in your brain right

now as you listen to me.

>> What's up, guys? It's Mark. Quick break.

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[Music]

in power in business. Is honesty really

the path to success?

Well, I hate talking in generality. So,

let's bring it down to the earth here

and get it more practical. There are

moments when you do want to be honest,

particularly with your own team

sometimes, not always. So, the leader of

a group has to have a vision. It's

extremely important. And it's what I

talk about in the war book and all of my

books. You have to be the one if it's

you if we're talking about Mark that

sees the future that knows where the

company is that know what the brand is.

You're in control. You have this vision

and you have to communicate that vision

very directly and very honestly to your

team. They have to understand they have

to be on the same page. So a degree of

transparency where they know what you

want, what you desire is very important.

If you're always concealing the

attentions from your team, then you're

going to create chaos within your

organization. It's that's not going to

work. Of course, there are times when

you don't want them to know exactly what

you're up to. That's why, you know,

people don't understand my books so

well. They're so linear-minded. Conceal

your intentions. I've got to conceal my

intentions. The game of power is subtle.

Human beings are subtle. They're

complex. Okay? So sometimes even when

you're the head of a group, there are

going to be moments where you want to

keep people off balance. You don't want

the members of your team to know exactly

what you're up, exactly what you're

thinking, exactly where you're going

because then they're just going to be,

you know, they're not going to be using

their own initiative. They're not going

to be imaginative. I talk in the war

book about Napoleon Bonapart being kind

of the master of what we of in warfare

they call man management, motivation.

And he would mix punishment and

kindness. So most of the time he was

kind to his soldiers, right? But

occasionally he would be very mean and

cruel and he would pick on people

randomly to keep them on their heels so

they didn't feel, wow, I can just do

whatever I want because Napoleon likes

me and you know I'm I'm he's on my side,

etc. There's another law in there about

using unpredictability to keep people in

suspended terror. So they don't know

exactly what to what what you want. So

they have to try harder. You have to try

harder to please you because they're not

quite sure whether you like them or not,

whether you find their work sufficient

or not. But where you really want to

conceal your intentions is with your

rivals, with your opponents, with your

enemies. So in warfare, it's very

obvious. It's very obvious in politics,

but it's also very clear in business. If

everybody of all the companies that are

your rivals, if they know exactly where

you're headed, they're going to ste

they're going to try and and take over

what you're doing. They're going to

they're going to mimic you. They're

going to mirror you. They know exactly

where you're headed. You're too

predictable.

So really, where you really want to

conceal your intentions is for those

people who are not on your side, right?

There's no there's no purpose for other

people knowing who are not on your team,

for knowing what you're intending to do

a year from now, a month from now, a

week from now. There's no good in that,

right? So maybe your customers, your

clients have a good sense of the brand,

but you want to keep your enemies, your

rivals completely on their heels,

completely on the defense. You're on the

offense.

>> We were just talking off camera about

the law of interaction with boldness. So

contextually to be, you know, it's

obviously nuanced. Don't conceal your

intentions internally to your team.

Conceal them externally. And then when

you want to go, you have to go big and

bold.

>> Yeah. You know, a lot of power is

thinking ahead two or three moves ahead.

And in the concealing intentions law, I

talk about Otto Bismar, the German

chancellor who was a master. He was

playing that kind of game, that kind of

chess on the political chess board of

Europe at the time. He was thinking

several moves in advance. And in order

to see think several moves in advance,

you you know what your intentions are.

You know where you're going to go in six

months, right? And so you have to have a

vision of where you're headed, but you

have to keep everybody else in the dark

so that they can't predict what's

happening next. So part of concealing

intentions, part of business, part of

power is the ability to think

strategically, to think in advance, to

think several moves in advance. And that

means having intentions, having moves

that you've planned out, but you want to

keep other people on their heels. They

don't know where you're going to go

next. Yeah. Big law you talk about is

planning to the end. And you also

touched on saying less than necessary. I

see that with the most powerful leaders,

they often say less. Just how does

silence itself become leverage? Well, I

remember I did a book with 50 Cent

called the 50th law. And 50 I met him

because he's a big fan of the 48 laws of

power, right? It's like his Bible.

And I remember for that book, I went to

a lot of meetings with him. I was kind

of hanging out with him. And he would

always tell me, "Robert, watch me in a

meeting. I'll say very little, but

everybody will have their eyes on me."

Right? Because when you talk then then

they kind of know who you are and they

they start to almost disregard you. But

when you're silent, particularly someone

like him, why is 50 not reacting to what

I'm talking about? Why isn't he saying

he loves my ideas? What's he thinking?

What's going on in his head? When you

make other people think about what's

going on in your head, you're the one in

control of the situation. Whereas if

they know everything that you're

thinking, everything that you're doing,

then they have power. They have power

over you. So I would see him in a

meeting and he would sit there all quiet

and everybody else would be freaking

out. So to sum it up, it's an aura of

power. You know, business is is very

matterof fact, but it's also pure

psychology, right? You've got to

understand the psychology behind power.

And I don't know what you're thinking

now. Right now, Mark, it's appearances,

right? You could be wearing a mask.

You're smiling right now, but you're

smiling. You might not really be

smiling. You might be kind of

uncomfortable. You may not like me or

something like that. I don't know.

You're wearing a mask. So power is about

appearances. And there's weakness,

things that show weakness. And and in my

book, The Laws of Human Nature, I talk

about the kind of the weak body

language, the weak signs that people can

kind of feed off of you. They smell it.

Then there are powerful things. And you

want to create this aura of power. Even

though inside you might not feel so

powerful or feel so comfortable or

secure, but outwardly you want to show

this appearance that puts makes people

think, "Wow, this guy, he's he's

authority. I respect him." Talking less

creates an aura of power. It makes you

look larger than you actually are. It

makes you think make people think he's

mysterious. She he or she is mysterious.

When you talk a lot, I don't know if

you've noticed this, but people who talk

a lot, they kind of there's something

insecure about them. If you can't

control your own mouth, if you can't

control that, then what can you control?

You can't control your emotions. You

can't control your behavior. It signals

weakness and insecurity. Whereas talking

less, you're not going to say something

stupid. And then when you do speak, it's

going to carry a lot of weight. So it

seems like an unimportant law. Oh,

always talk less than speak less than

necessary. But it's actually extremely

important to understand the psychology

of what gives the appearance the aura of

power and what doesn't. So are you

basically recommending people that

almost like transparency and

authenticity is overrated? You should

say less, be disciplined in nature and

every word that comes out of your mouth.

Needs to be strategic in nature.

>> I mean down to the baseline of every

human being, we're all actors. Some are

good actors, some act more, some are bad

actors. But I always tell people if you

look at children three or four years old

or you remember your own childhood, you

were constantly pretending. You were

constantly acting to your parents. You

would act like an angel to get something

that you wanted. You'd act all sweet and

innocent because you wanted some candy.

You wanted some game. Being an actor is

part of human nature. It's deeply deeply

ingrained in all of us because we're a

social animal. If you went around just

speaking everything that you thought,

you would offend everyone around you,

right? If you told somebody that their

clothes are ugly, that they look fat,

that their ideas are stupid, they're

going to hate you. You're not going to

get very far in life. So, you learn at

an early age to control what you say, to

control who you are, to control what you

do. Think about your life, Mark. When

you are interacting with Michael Jordan,

you have a certain way of behaving

around him, right? You're probably a

little bit intimidated, probably don't

speak as much, probably. But when you're

around one of your other employees who

just joined, you're completely

different. You're acting. You're not the

same person in front of Michael Jordan

as you are in front of your 21-year-old

new employee. That is acting. That's how

we all are. We're different in front of

our father than we are with our friends.

Right? So, get over this notion that we

can all just hang out and just be who we

are. You're never being who you are.

You're always acting to some degree.

You're really touching on the

formlessness law which is really that

malleability and adaptability based on a

per situation perspective. Can somebody

win in business and life if they're not

malleable to situation?

>> Well, let me explain to you the idea a

little bit behind formlessness first.

Okay. So, a lot of that is comes from

SunSu very obviously. It's an Asian idea

about being kind of water and being

fluid in life. But it's also an idea

that for me came very much from Makaveli

and I've noticed this with a lot of

business leaders. I noticed it when I

was on I was on the board of directors

of American Apparel and with the CEO

Dove Charnie. And what what Mchaveli

talks about is people rise to power.

They become a CEO. They become a leader.

They become a president or whatever

based on certain qualities that they

have. A strength. It could be

aggression. It could be being a people

pleaser, being just very empathetic. It

could be having a populist touch. It

could be good with words, an orator.

That's their strength. They use that and

they get a lot of power because they're

good at they don't have to think about

it. It's almost natural to them. They

get to a position of power. And now the

times are changing because things are

always changing, particularly nowadays

where things change month by month,

right? Trends are changing. Young people

are coming up. Tastes are changing. The

world is changing. Your rivals are

changing. The business world is

changing. And you're still holding on to

that one quality that brought you to the

top. You're still thinking that my

aggression or that my being popular and

pleasing everybody or my speaking well

and you keep holding on to that and the

world has passed you by and you're weak.

And Makielli said, "If I could create

the monster, the perfect the

Frankenstein of of a leader in business

or politics, whatever, it would be

somebody who could change with the

times, who they rose to power based on a

strength. They see that it's not quite

the right quality and they adapt and

they become and they move with the

times." He compared it to a river,

right? And you're kind of moving like

the water. you're flowing with this this

river and that's power. But being rigid

and having a form and having a strategy

that you always rely on and having a

personality that you always exude to the

world and perform as is weak because you

can't adapt. I mean think of your own

business your own business your business

in the last 3 years. Can you begin to

imagine all the incredible shifts that

have occurred in just that time? My

business has completely changed in three

years. I would say every single year

it's a new business.

>> Yeah. I think a key thing to understand

and know there too is like you have to I

wouldn't say detach feelings, but you

have to detach your ego and just have a

completely open mind or else you're

going to lose now more so than ever with

what's going on with the world,

>> right?

>> Yeah. And and I would say

experimentation is another biggest one.

>> You bring up a good point. Ego is

definitely a part of that. You're

holding on to the past because that's

what you that that's what brought you

success. That's who you think you are.

To change yourself, to become fluid, to

be something different means you have to

let go of the past. You have to let go

of your ego. So that's a very important

quality. Do you think leaders can be too

kind of fluid in formlessness or will

they lose their identity? What needs to

stay? Is it just the vision and then

just be malleable and all the other

tactics tied to it?

>> Well, it's a delicate game. As I tried

to say in the beginning, don't think of

power as this. These are these set laws

that I have to follow. It's got to be

this way. It's got to be A or B or C.

Open your mind up. Don't be so don't be

so rigid about it. So sometimes you have

to be consistent, right? That's your

brand. If you're suddenly changing your

brand every six months, people don't

know who you are, don't know what what

it's about, you're going to lose your

customers, your clients, right? But if

you're too stuck, if you're too always

the same, people are going to be bored

with you. So the game in 2025 and moving

forward has a lot to do with attention.

People have written about this, but

attention is is money. The attention is

something that you can monetize, right?

Being able to get the attention in a

world where people you're competing with

millions of other pe billions of other

people out there, right? Okay. And so in

order to gain people's attention, people

get very bored, right? They get very

bored very quickly if you're always the

same, if you always have one note.

>> Yeah. I think in business and in life,

complacency is the most dangerous drug.

And in order to keep momentum, I think

consistency is one thing, but you have

to stay interesting.

>> And an example with me is just I've

always been known as like a business and

an operator. And now I could tell people

in my network are kind of shaken up.

They're now like, are you a content

creator? Are you a podcaster? And I

think that was a necessary shakeup

because it was getting kind of old with

what I was doing. I needed something new

and fresh.

>> Yeah. I mean, I've always believed this.

I've always it's been kind of an

instinct of mine. And so I wrote the 48

laws of power and it was very it was

successful. It's gone much more popular

since the first couple of years, but it

was quite successful. And I could have

easily made my second book, The 48 Laws

of Power Part Two. People wanted me to

do that. They wanted me to go further

into it. But I never ever ever ever want

to be predictable. I don't want anybody

to ever think what my next book will be.

So I go to seduction which is quite a

change from power. And then I go to war

which is a little bit similar to power

but it's also different. Then I go to 50

book with 50 cent. Then I go to mastery

which has nothing to do with the other

books which is all about your brain how

to master your field. Then I do the

human nature. And now I'm doing a book

on the sublime. So I want to stay one

step ahead of people. I never want them

to think oh I know what Robert's about.

I know what his next book's going to be.

I know what his laws are. He's very

predictable. I'm I'm never going to go

in the direction that people expect me

to go in.

>> I think like a halo that goes over the

whole entire book and directly

correlates to all the laws, especially

the guard your reputation at all costs

is the ability to reinvent yourself. You

keep iterating in and around that. What

are the key kind of uh strategies and

initiatives should you do for the

marketplace to see you differently?

So to give you an example, I was on the

board of directors of American Apparel,

right? And American Apparel was

incredibly successful, right? Up until

the turning point was the year 2007

when we went public and we had had to

assume massive amounts of debt and then

there was the crash in '08 and suddenly

our debt was crushing, right? And and we

never recovered from it. But the point

was, the point I'm getting at is Dove

created a brand that was all based on

the early8s and in the mid80s kind of

sexy tight clothes, kind of the workout,

the Jane Fonda mentality. He was he was

a child of the 80s. He was sort of stuck

in that era. And it worked. It was

brilliant. People loved it. But I could

already sense in the year 2009,

this was a company that was mostly

selling to young girls, to young women.

Their tastes were changing. That kind of

sexy look and an old approach. It was

starting to become pay. And I was

telling Dove, you've got to shift it a

little bit. Got to shift with the times.

Things are changing right now. People

aren't so much looking into the early

80s. They're thinking it differently.

let's come up with a different line of

clothing or let's reflect that more.

Now, I'm not saying I knew exactly the

answer, but my point to him was I think

you're in the danger of becoming pass.

The worst thing that can happen to

anybody in business that suddenly the

public perceives you as being two or

three or five years behind the times.

That's deadly. It's okay to appear 50

years behind the times. That's

nostalgic. That's, you know, that's

interesting, but four or five years

behind the time, that's deadly. That's

the kind of strategy, strategic thinking

I'm talking about. All right? Where

you've got a brand, you're known for a

certain thing and times are changing.

Maybe you have to shift that knowing how

times are going. I mean, we could talk

about people like Elon Musk who's got a

very powerful image, consistent brand

for who he is, right? But then sometimes

it can get predictable. It can get like,

you know, he's always in your face. He's

always, you know, he's takes boldness to

the nth degree. So maybe somebody like

that if he shifted a little bit and

sometimes I've seen signs of that

potentiality and he showed a little

slightly different side to him I think

it would help him a lot because right

now he seems powerful but he's also

getting a little bit predictable and

maybe that he won't his public image I

think is going to suffer from that.

>> Yeah I feel like it's just as simple as

just showing like his softer side and

his family and I completely agree. He's

very stiff and hard and against what's

going on with the current regime. It

would take something very small to I

think completely shift

>> the complete public perception.

>> Yeah.

>> Going deeper into that. Is there a world

where you can actually chase too much

attention? Is it about just getting as

much attention as possible?

>> Well, yeah. I mean, I I don't I don't

want to keep name dropping here, so

please excuse me, but I was I was

approached by a very well-known female

rapper, Sidi. Okay. And

>> that's a good name drop. I like that.

>> Okay. And she asked me, "Robert, you

know, you have some of the laws are

about mystery, appearing mysterious,

creating an aura of mystery, using

absence to create honor and respect. How

do you do that in the era of social

media where it's all about grabbing as

much attention as possible? How can you

withdraw? How can you be mysterious?"

And I said, "Well, look, people are very

bored right now. They're like children

who've been continually stimulated with

all kinds of of of new and exciting new

toys, right? And you're vying for their

attention. Okay? If you're always the

same, if you're always doing the same,

if you're always appearing the same,

they're going to look, they're going to

get bored with you and they're going to

look for something else. So, you have to

be mysterious. You have to withdraw. If

you withdraw and you're not always vying

for their attention, you disappear for a

month, you don't post anything or you

post something that's maybe a little bit

enigmatic where they're not quite sure

what you mean. Suddenly, they're going

to pay attention to you. I talk about

this about certain musicians like

Michael Jackson was very good about

that. Part of it was his personality,

but he would withdraw. People don't

understand Michael Jackson was a real

kind of power person. He really is

interested in the game of power. In

fact, I've said this before in other

podcasts, he had the 48 laws of power

and when he died, they auctioned his

copy of the book and it had all of these

notes in it. He had annotated it

completely with his own notes. So, he

was very interested. But before the book

came out, he understood the game of

power and he understood sometimes you

have to withdraw. Sometimes you have to

be one of those movie stars like Greta

Garbo who disappears for 6 months, a

year or two years. People start thinking

what's he up to next? When's his next

album going to be out? What's it going

to be about? Even Beyonce plays the game

like that. So the people these are act

these are artists. So it's a little

easier. But the game is to sometimes

withdraw from that attention cycle where

you're always having to be something for

other people. Take a step back and let

them start wondering what happened to

you. Disappear for a while. You have to

know the game of absence and presence.

Sometimes you have to be absent and

sometimes you have to be present.

Napoleon Bonapart said, "If I show up at

the theater every evening as a

spectator, the audience sees me, they

start taking me for granted. But if I

show up a month later, go, oh, there's

Napoleon. Wow." Then I show up the next

week, oh, he's coming off. and then I

show up in 6 months. They don't know

when I'm going to show up next. So

you're they're always having to think

about him. So that's sort of the game a

little bit knowing how to this dynamic

between absence and presence.

Yeah, I completely agree with that with

increasing the honor through the

absence. Putting aside kind of being

strategic and when you come and go at

general face value, do you think it's

better to be attacked and slandered or

ignored completely? Better to be

attacked and slandered.

>> Better to be attacked and slandered. So

So you're on the the notion of any press

is good press in that sense.

>> Definitely. Oh, for sure. For sure. I

mean, look, the 48 Laws of Power when it

came out was very controversial because

honestly, it's it's got an edge to it, a

moral edge. There are laws in it that

are a little bit frightening to some

people, you know, and that controversy,

that edge, people hating it is what

created an aura of it. So controversy,

now scandal is something else because

that could play against you,

particularly if it's a scandal for

certain thing, for what you know,

certain subjects, certain scandalous

acts. But controversy is incredibly

powerful, right? because it makes people

think about you, you know. So sometimes

I I get so annoyed because everything

now is so politically correct, you know,

we've all got to appear to be these

saints. We always have to have this kind

of virtue signaling, right? But it's not

real. It's not true. It's not who we are

because we all have a dark side. I

talked in several podcasts about Kobe

Bryan who we were talking about earlier.

Kobe had a dark side and you could see

it in his game and it's what attracted

you to it. It's what made him a great

player. Okay, you have a dark side. I

have a dark side. So, we're all

attracted to people who show a little

bit of it, who show a little bit of that

dark side, that little bit of

controversy, who are not so predictable,

who are not so sweet and angelic.

So, controversy is is extremely powerful

in in the power game. As far as that

goes, I feel like it's it's similar in

business where as long as it's not

fatal, it actually builds your lore.

Like when Kobe went through the whole

entire case in Colorado a long time ago,

whether guilty or not guilty, that just

built up this new storyline that kept

him in the media, and then it was a

bigger and greater arc when he obviously

recovered from it, became a great family

man, and now he was looked at under

>> under that light. So, you go really,

really deep into how important

reputation is under the notion we're

talking about attention, good attention,

bad attention. If your reputation gets

quote unquote ruined, can that be

something that could be built back? Of

course, I've had a lot I've had dealings

with that with people who come to me

about that very thing. So there are

times when you need to apologize and the

apology has to be sincere and it has to

be not the usual thing where I don't

know what came over me. That's not who I

am. That just happened once. No, you

acknowledge that you made a mistake,

right? That you did something wrong. And

you show genuine contrition. And then

you know a lot of people that were

cancelled 6 years ago that's when they

were contacting me or 8 years ago and I

said you know show your contrition

understand why people reacted against

you give it a little bit of time and

then come back with more or less the

same image but you know understanding

there are they're kind of guard rails

here you know I thought for instance

watching Jimmy Kimmel last night and his

monologue. That's not quite the same

thing cuz it was just like 4 days or so

that he was cancelled and it wasn't it

was a scandal but it wasn't like a huge

scandal but I thought how he handled it

was really really good. He was

apologetic. He understood why it was

taken the wrong way but he wasn't this

craven coward who was just saying oh I

I'm so sorry for everything I did. I'm

not going to behave like that anymore

because that doesn't seem authentic.

That doesn't seem genuine.

>> And he positions himself with strength

that he apologized, but at the same

time, this is who I am. I'm not going to

change for the

>> He also acknowledged the wife of Charlie

Kirk and he said that she did it very

gracefully. He said, you know, it's

terrible that this young man was

murdered and his wife, his own wife,

forgave the assassin. An incredible

thing. He acknowledged that and yet at

the same time he then was being more or

less himself. He wasn't going to change

who he was. That was a very powerful way

of handling that kind of scandal.

>> In relation to reputation in 2025, do

you think reputation is more important

than capital?

>> Reputation is capital. So to give you an

example, I look at Elon Musk for

instance. Okay. And I look at the early

years of Tesla.

Now anybody who studies the manufacturer

of automobile business knows that to

start a new automobile company is

extremely precarious. The amount of

capital that you need to start up with

the factories with the overhead with the

materials from getting parts from all

over the world is enormous. It's why

nobody starts from scratch an automobile

company which he did. Okay. Now, his

cars were wellbuilt. They were

interesting. But what he did was his

reputation, his boldness. He was on

Twitter at the time saying all of these

different things. He was always in the

news with very bold pronouncements.

People loved him. This is before his

more recent iteration. They were excited

about him. His reputation meant people

would now when he went public, people

were investing in it based on his

reputation. Not based on Tesla, not

based on the actual cars that he was

producing, not based on knowledge of the

business, of the finance of Tesla, which

was actually in the whole, which is

actually deeply in debt, based on his

reputation as a maverick, as somebody

inventive, as somebody who was

interesting and innovative, a true

pioneer spirit.

money poured in, investment money poured

in to the publicly traded company which

then turned into capital that he could

now use to build the company and build

the cars. His reputation in that case

was capital.

>> I think in his case too it was

reputation combined with attention. His

ability to garner the attention in

conjunction with his reputation is what

did it for him.

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What is the right way to package wins so

the people above you feel ownership

instead of feeling threatened?

>> You mean never outshine the master?

>> Yes, sir.

>> So it says never outshine the master.

You know, maybe it should be usually

don't outshine the master, but that

wouldn't have sounded so good. So you

have to understand that the person above

you has an ego and has probably a bigger

ego than you do obviously cuz they're

powerful. But with an ego comes

insecurities. Okay? So you must be aware

that the person above you has

insecurities and probably has more than

you do because they're constantly

worried. Do people still like me? Am I

still doing as well? Am I as popular as

I was a year ago? Am I getting as much

attention as I deserve? Am I doing a

good job? He or she is very insecure.

They're thinking about these things all

of the time. So what happens is if you

try too eagerly to impress them and you

do such a good job on some project or

something and then all the attention

occurs to you for doing that, then

you're going to trigger their

insecurities. Wow, this person's getting

the attention and not me. Maybe they're

after my job. Maybe they're more popular

than I am. They're not going to

consciously think this because they

don't want to admit that they're

insecure. But unconsciously, they're

they're worried about you. They're

they're thinking things that maybe

you're a threat, right? And slowly

they're going to build up kind of

resentment towards you. And what will

happen is you'll probably be fired or

you'll be demoted. So if you work hard

on a project for somebody else from

somebody higher up in your group and you

do a great job, you need to tone it down

a little bit. Don't take so much credit.

Let them bask a little bit in the glory.

Let them have the attention. Yes,

they're the genius behind the project. I

was just executing their their desires.

that makes them suddenly go, "Wow, this

person, you understand that they're that

they did a great job, but they're being

a little bit humble. They're giving you

the attention, which you deserve anyway

because you think you do." Okay. But if

you were if you're too weak about it, if

you're too humble, if you're going, "Oh,

you know, you don't take credit at all.

You weren't involved in it at all." That

makes you look weak, right? So, you have

to be kind of nuanced. You have to do a

good job. You have to try really hard.

You have to do the best that you can,

but you got to let the person above you

take some of the credit, take some of

the glory. Otherwise, they're going to

be wondering about you. They're going to

be thinking that you think that you're

better than them, and you're going to

trigger their insecurities. This is the

most important law and power that I want

you to engrave in your brain right now

as you listen to me. And it's the

following. Everybody has insecurities

and has an ego. And the worst thing you

can do for your boss, for your

colleagues, for the people underneath

you is to violate their ego, to make

them feel insecure, you will pay a price

for it. They will resent you. They will

work against you. They will betray you

in the end. So never lose sight that

everybody around you has an ego and has

insecurities. If you're thinking about

going upstream, you're an employee with

your boss. In short, kind of do good, do

your work, selectively compliment them,

but then on the flip side, the boss you

recommend have everybody do the work for

you, but then take the credit.

>> Yeah.

>> I'd love for you to expand on that.

What's your thoughts with that?

>> So, the the law came from I I worked in

Hollywood for unfortunately for like 10

years. It kind of inspired 48 laws. I

say unfortunately because I hated

Hollywood, but I would work for a a film

director who would be doing a screenplay

and I would write large portions of the

dialogue and other and I would

contribute to it. Nobody ever knew that.

It was always his name on it, right? He

got all the fame, all the glory, all the

attention. And at the time kind of

bothered me. I was kind of resentful.

And then when I wrote the 48 laws of

power, I had this idea that Robert, you

did the wrong thing. You were stupid.

The game of power should have been

that's how things are, right? When you

look at at at a politician who gives a

great speech and everybody's going,

"Wow, Barack Obama, that was an amazing

speech.

>> Someone wrote that speech.

>> Somebody wrote it. He never wrote it."

And you never know that name who wrote

it. We might, but you know, no one ever

gets that attention. When you see some

journalist giving some really

interesting monologue on television,

somebody else wrote that, did all the

research and gave them all the notes for

that. Comedians, Bill Maher doesn't

write his material. He's got a team of

people writing all the jokes, right? You

never see them. You never know. Maybe

the credits rolled by really quickly,

right? So, that's how powerful people

operate. Okay? And I should have just

accepted it. I should have been more

humble. I should have said that's how

the jungle is. There are people who take

the credit for it. And if I didn't

resent it, I wouldn't have lost energy.

If you get too worked up about things,

if everything is so dramatic, if you're

emotional, if you were reacting against

everything, it drains you of of of

energy. It clouds your mind. You're not

a good strategist. You're not a good

warrior in life. if you're not a good

power player because your your brain is

just sinking into this mud of reactions

and emotions. So, I should have just

been more zen about it. This is how the

game is.

Eventually, if I keep writing this good

dialogue and stuff, he's going to let me

take credit or I will get credit for it

eventually if I'm humble, if I'm

serious, if I learn the game, if I play

it right. If you play the game of power

right, you read the book, you understand

it, you will be rewarded down the at the

end of the game, right? You will be

rewarded. So I wrote that chapter

because people in power use that and

know about it, but also for you the

person starting out or was younger to

understand that that's what's going to

be happening to you. People are going to

be taking your work and taking credit

for it. But just accept that. How much

of avoiding outshining the master is

really just about knowing who you're

dealing with? It seems like it's very

contextual to who the actual master or

boss is. Yes, it is. And it's nuanced.

And some people, if you work really

hard, you do a great job, and you get

attention for it, they won't mind. Your

boss will be fine. They'll be happy for

you. There'll be no resentment. There'll

be no pettiness. There'll be no envy.

Great if you have a boss like that. But

do you want me to tell you the

percentage of bosses who will be like

that? It's probably about 5%. Okay, I'm

just throwing that number up. That's

what I think, right? But if that's who

your boss is, fantastic. Vunderbar, love

it. Go for it. But the chances are that

they're probably not. So law number one

is understand that probably they are

insecure. Probably you're going to

trigger their egos and be a little bit

careful. But understand as well what are

their insecurities? What is going to

trigger that? So to give you an example

from my own life because I violated this

law once. I worked for an awful awful

television show back in the 90s whose

name I won't even mention. I was a

researcher for it. Okay? And I was the

best researcher on this crap show. And

best researcher meant that the stories I

found were the ones that were most used.

I had a higher percentage. Right? kind

of went to my head. Wow, I'm hot

You know, I'm I'm by far the best

researcher on this crew. And I had a

boss, a woman, and she ended up thinking

I had an attitude like Robert just

thinks he's so great. Okay. And one day

we had a meeting and I hated these

meetings because they were such

Nothing is accomplished, just

people talking. It's just political

crap. That's how I felt. So I was kind

of like doodling in my notebook. I

wasn't listening. She goes, "Robert,

something wrong here? Do you think

you're better than everybody else? Ended

up she was started she started really

harassing me after that. Not not

sexually or anything. She started

harassing me my job, right? And

eventually I just quit cuz I couldn't

handle it anymore. I was sick of it. I

hated the job. I hated her and I hated

all the politicking that was involved.

Shouldn't life be about doing the best

job, getting the best stories? Isn't

that what matters?" No, that's not what

matters in business or politics. What

matters is pleasing people, stroking

their egos. I triggered her insecurity,

which was she didn't feel like she was

in authority. She didn't feel like I

respected her. That was her weakness. If

I understood that, maybe I would have

played it differently, but I wouldn't

have played it differently because I

wanted to quit that job anyway.

>> That's discovering that thumb screw.

What the the weaknesses and the motives

and the things that make people tick and

act differently.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah, you got to know that

initially. I think for outshine the

master, it's very upstream. It's bosses

to investors, employees to bosses. A

really, really interesting. Let's call

it the 49th law of power here. Actually,

>> there is no 49.

>> This is a good one. I think you're going

to agree with it. It's it's new and I've

heard it. My buddy Simon Molner, he's

actually next on the podcast. He was a

part of Afterpay. His brother was the

founder.

>> Afterpay.

>> Afterpay. So if you buy something for

$100 online, I'll say spend 25 25 in

installments. And I go, you know, he was

a billionaire in his late 20s. And I

asked him, you know, what was his

superpower? What was his moat? And he

said he had the ability, we're talking

downstream now, that as the boss, even

if it was his ideas, if his employees

repackaged it or came to them with the

ideas, he would make those employees

feel as though it was their idea. And he

said that empowered them in a whole

different way. And ultimately he had his

own motive. He was planning to the end

himself. And he felt that

psychologically put them in a place

where the work they did was valuable. I

had never heard anything like that. I

thought it was absolutely brilliant. And

it's kind of a riff on outshine the

master upstream. This is kind of

downstream.

Well, I'm all fine for people who do do

it differently from my laws because as I

said, you know, no law is set in stone

and sometimes you need to do the

opposite. But I would like to see the

actual results from this. So, a danger

in that kind of approach is that people

get complacent. They think, "God, this

boss is kind of weak. He's giving me

credit for all these things. I actually,

you know, I did some of the work on it,

but really it was his idea. And now you

kind of your respect for him is just a

little bit less. You're not admitting

it. And so you're not emboldened to work

as hard. You might think that it's the

opposite and he might think it's the

opposite. And it might be the opposite.

And I could be very wrong. But it could

also be that people think I don't have

to do very much to get his approval.

Whereas if it's the opposite and he

takes most of the credit, but you get a

little bit of it, you get a little that

little bit of it makes you feel good and

it makes you want to try harder the next

time.

>> I feel like you almost have to be nice

but not too nice. That's kind of where

you're at.

>> I That's what I believe. Now you're this

man for Afterpay. I'm sure he's

brilliant and I'm sure he knows more

than I do about his company and I'm sure

he played it right. So, I'm not

contradicting him, but I don't know if

it's a model for other people out there

because I think there's a slight danger

to it.

>> We'll make sure we ask him on the next

podcast.

>> Yeah.

>> I want to go off to Law 40. Despise the

free lunch. That's one of my favorites.

>> Yeah.

>> My friends call me Barter Simpson. I've

talked about it before. I barter a lot

of things and do free both ways. It's

something I need to stop. So, I guess

let's just start with why is free so

often the most expensive mistake in

business? Well, I tell you a lot of

times, so people often want to work for

me. They offer their services. They say,

"Robert, you don't need to pay me."

Okay? I'll work for free. All right? And

the idea is nothing nothing ever comes

free in this world. Nobody ever ever

gives you something free. Now, there is

an exception to that. Your mother

probably loved you. Not always, probably

loved you, not expecting anything in

return. But usually, you know, even

mothers do expect something in return.

So even their love is not often totally

free. But nobody gives you anything for

free. They're wanting something in

return. And they're it's a trick where

they're thinking that if they offer

their services for free, you're going to

go, "Okay, that's great." And you're not

going to pay attention to the fact that

they're after something else from you,

right? And so it's always better to pay

people and pay them well for their

services. So if you're generous with

your money, if you show that you're not

niggly, you're not a powerful person

feels confident in their wealth, feels

confident in their resources, feel

confident in the time that they have,

and so they give that generously to

other people. Being tight with your

money, not wanting to pay your employees

well is a terrible, terrible quality and

it will bite you in the end. So, I

always tell you, maybe you don't give

them credit for everything. Maybe you

keep them a little bit on on their toes,

but you pay them well, right? You treat

them well. They feel comfortable. They

have food. They have an apartment. They

have living expenses. Okay? And you

don't want to make them feel insecure

about that. So being cheap with your

money is very very dangerous. It's a

signal of weakness. Okay. But on the

other hand, when people are offering

their services, they come to you saying,

"I want it for free." I say, "Forget

about that. There's a ploy there.

They're they're after something." But if

somebody comes to you and says, "Robert,

I really want to work for you. I think I

could be a really great researcher and

this is what I'm worth." and then you

see that they have some experience and

you try them out and you pay them.

That's going to be a a good relationship

moving forward, right?

>> In short, you need skin in the game for

team building, for partnerships.

>> Yeah.

>> For anything.

>> Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.

I'm going to remember that.

>> Does it ever make sense to give away

something free strategically or never?

>> Give me an example. You're a brand owner

and you believe in your product so much

and let's just say you're a mass market

product. You say, "Hey, I'm going to

give you this t-shirt for free."

>> Oh, well, people doing that all the

time. That's that's a that's a brilliant

marketing tool. Yeah.

>> So, is this more from from a from a

human perspective because humans

ultimately at the core have a dark side

per what you said versus a business

strategy or a product which obviously

the product has. No. Well, if you're the

buyer of the product, you should be a

little bit wary that they're giving it

to you for free because they're going to

come after you now. I gave you my book

for free. Maybe I'm after something.

Maybe I'm after you being kind of gentle

with me and having a good interview. So,

you have to be a little bit wary of that

free gift.

>> Guys, Robert gave me a beautiful limited

edition 48 laws of power where you

>> Yeah.

>> flick the pages. It's his face on one.

What was the other face? Makave was it?

>> Makave. Makio Valley is beautiful. I'm

gonna

>> I'm gonna post that on the internet and

give some distribution and

>> hopefully sell you some books.

>> Well, it's already

>> you don't need to sell any books, but

I'm just saying.

>> Okay. Okay.

>> I want to go into another law in

conjunction with despise the free lunch

when asking for help appealing to

self-interest, never to mercy. What is

kind of the biggest lesson for power

behind that? Well, if you want something

from somebody who's powerful, let's say

you want them to fund your movie or

whatever, you go to them and you go, you

know, I kind of helped you out a little

bit in the past once before, or my

brother worked for you and did a really

great job. Can I get some help now for

my project? Almost saying you you you

deserve it because you did something for

them in the past. Terrible, terrible

approach. Terrible. The worst approach,

nobody wants to feel like they owe you

anything. All right? And nobody really

feels much gratitude. But the smart

approach is you want funding for that

movie or for a project, you do some

research. And I tell you, research in

any business before you approach

somebody for a job or anything is

absolutely essential. I find out this is

something that he needs. He's always

been trying to break into the movie

business. He hasn't been successful.

Okay. All right. I'm going to package

this as a way where I'm going to give

you credit as a producer on this

picture. I'm going to let you have this

perk or that perk or you'll get to meet

Sydney Sweeney or whoever it is, right?

Whatever their self-interest is,

whatever they need, whatever they don't

have, if you think of what they need,

what their interests are, what they

lack, then you've got a good proposal.

I'll tell you, when you're in a position

of weakness, you're starting out and

you're approaching powerful people.

Okay? What is the self-interest that

kind of ties most powerful people

together? They don't have enough time.

They are too busy. We all know that. You

know that. I know what that's like. Too

many things going on, too many people

asking for favors, too many projects,

too many things going on. Never have

enough time. If you in your proposal, in

your asking for them to do something for

you, if what you're offering is to save

them time to make it so it's not so

exhausting, you're going to organize

something for them, that'll have a lot

of power, that'll have a lot of impact.

That's in everybody's self-interest

today.

>> I would say save time and attention.

Those are the two kind of biggest things

that people want. And what's really

interesting about what you just said,

when you are going and appealing to

somebody's self-interest as the asker,

you have the ability to control the unit

economics where your ask could be

pennies on a dollar for

what I actually want. Case in point, an

example is, you know, you mentioned that

I'd want to be on a movie. You want $2

million from me. I could say, I've

always wanted to be an author. Robert,

I'm a huge fan. Why don't you let me

write the forward? What's the reality?

How much does the forward? It cost you

nothing. It's obviously real estate in

your book. I have no economic

participation, but I'm making no money.

You're getting your $2 million. So, you

can really arbitrage.

>> Yeah.

>> Making money through being super

strategic

>> in the favor. Tap into I always say all

the time that you have to understand and

know like your bullets in the chamber.

>> You know, you're a basketball fan. Who

do I know that's a basketball player

that I can introduce you to? Stuff like

that.

>> That's my weakness. if you wanted me to

to to give it. You had some ask for me

and you said, "Robert, I I can introduce

you to Kobe Bryant when he was still

alive or or whomever, I'd be eating out

of your hand. I'd be like,

>> I just have to stop. I just have to stop

you guys right now, guys. The first 20

minutes we were off camera just geeking

out about basketball.

>> We need to get you on camera another

time just talking about B. You need to

go on like Colin Coward or something.

You're very very deep in basketball."

>> Yeah. Uh I I don't have like a detailed

knowledge of basketball, but I have a

very strategic knowledge of basketball.

I have a feel for it.

>> You understand macro strategy and you

knew the standings. I mean, you know

what's going on.

>> Yeah, I do very much so. I don't waste a

lot of my time because I have so much

work, but the one thing I waste time on

is reading about the NBA and all various

websites, you know, particularly all the

rumors about the Lakers and everything.

I'm I'm just an total junkie for that

kind of stuff.

>> We have to get it on camera. Prediction

for the Lakers uh next year.

>> They'll probably end up like in the

fourth or fifth slot in the Western

Conference. They may win the first

round. I don't think they'll get out of

the second round. If they do, that would

be, I think, quite an achievement for

them. But it what will be interesting is

to see is what happens to the Clippers

because I hate the Clippers. And you

know what's going on right now.

>> I know exactly what's going on. The

Clippers are the Cowboys, Robert. They

don't even We don't even It doesn't even

deserve for us for us to talk about

them.

>> They're at the bottom of the barrel.

>> They are.

>> Although, if you watch a Jerry Jones

documentary of the Cowboys, it's it's

very very You want to talk about

interaction with boldness? Jerry Jones

is interaction with boldness. That guy

took massive risks.

>> I know. But that's an example of

reputation is capital because the

Cowboys are worth one of the most

wealthiest. you know what what their

worth would be if you sold it right now.

It's one of the highest of any sports

team in the world. But what's it based

on? They've not won anything for for 30

years or so. I don't know almost 30

years, right? So it's all his

reputation. It's all the the the glory

from the past when he had

>> Irving, EMTT Aman, Jimmy Johnson.

>> Jimmy Johnson. Yeah.

>> He should have read 48 Laws of Power

when he let Jimmy Johnson go. I'm going

to leave it at that.

>> Okay. Okay.

>> He should have done that. But yeah, the

Cowboys star is the Yankees pinstripe.

And at this point,

I mean, they're on the same level as the

Giants at this point. They're terrible.

What's up, guys? It's Mark. Quick

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description to sign up. Thanks for

watching. All

right, we're going to go into the

lightning round. I'm going to ask you a

bunch of questions and fire off. What is

the single most important skill to

master?

>> Well, the single most important skill to

master is to be more focused outwardly.

So, a problem that you have is you're

always inside yourself. You're always

thinking about your needs, your

emotions,

your problems, things that have happened

to you. Do people like me? Am I getting

enough attention? That's a deadly deadly

attitude to have in business or in any

venture in life. We're a social animal.

So you might think that analytics and

algorithms and data is what's going to

drive your company. That's certainly a

part of it. But the social aspect is

equally, if not more important. What I

mean by that is your employees, the

culture of your group, the world at

large, your clients, the global

situation right now. These are social

phenomena, right? You have to

understand. You have to be so close to

what people are thinking in the world

today. What your employees are thinking,

to what your colleagues are thinking,

what your rivals are thinking. So, you

need to be continually laser focused

outwardly on the world, on the trends,

on what other people are thinking. You

have to become a master observer of the

social game. Being able to read other

people's psychology, being able to read

and understand the trends that are going

on in the world, where the world is

going in five years. So get outside of

all your emotions and your feelings and

oh, I'm not getting this. Oh, I'm such a

victim. Oh, people don't like me. And be

laser focused on other people, what they

need, what they're thinking, what

they're feeling. That's like the a

killer skill that you need to develop.

>> It's all about just tailoring your

strategies to what's going on on the

outside. Has nothing to do with the

inside. You have to be emotionless, no

ego, whatever is going on the outside,

you got to adjust to that. What should

the real goal of your life be in your

20s and what do most people get wrong?

>> For that answer, I would really

recommend reading my book, Mastery,

because I I go into that quite deeply.

So, you need to think of your 20s, which

by is by far the best years of your

life. Let's get that straight first.

Father, it was the best years of my

life, right? It's the most exciting. You

know, you're young, you look good, you

got energy, you know it, you dress well

probably. I hope the thing that you want

from your 20s is you want an

apprenticeship, right? You want to

learn. You want learning skills. You

want to learn skills, solid skills, so

that by the time you turn 30, which is

the critical turning point in your life,

I said the 20s are your most fun. The

30s are the key part of your life, which

is my key part, the late 30s. When

you're 30, you want to be go. I had fun.

I had adventures. I traveled. You know,

I dated. I I did everything I wanted.

But I also learned things. I learned A,

B, and C skills. You don't have to learn

just one skill. You can learn three

skills. Three things that you master

that you spent seven years going into

deeply. But if you wasted your 20s, if

you just had fun, if you just did

whatever you wanted to, by the time you

hit 30, you nothing will stick together.

Nothing will cohhere. You've been

stretched too thin. But if you're only

if you're linear, laser focused, I'm

just going to go to Goldman Sachs. I'm

going to get a job. I'm going to get

paid 150,000 a year. You're not

spreading yourself out. You're not

learning enough skills. You're not

developing yourself inwardly.

You know, learning

a skill is a skill, but learning is a

skill. And in order to learn, you have

to be able to put up with boredom,

frustration, and tedium. So, if you're

able to put up because right now, young

people have it really, really bad

because things are so easy for them that

they don't have the patience to learn

something. They just want to get on to

Chad GBT. Everything is fed to them. You

need to be able to put up with the

tedium, the boredom that learning a

skill involves. I talk in mastery about

a guy named Paul Graham, Y Combinator,

etc. Paul was one of the earliest people

to get into AI back in the late '7s. He

was a coder. He was really into

computing and hacking. He went to MIT, I

believe, and studied computer

programming.

Got his masters, his PhD, whatever. But

then he got bored with it. He got tired

of it. Just became monotonous to him. So

he always was interested in painting and

design. So he left New York and he went

to Italy and he enrolled in an art

school and he learned painting in

Florence for like a year. He came back

to New York. He was a painter in a loft

and he heard on the radio that Netscape,

which was the newest hot thing, was

going to try and maybe use the internet

to sell things. Now you might laugh at

that but at the early days of the

internet people didn't sell things on

the internet right it wasn't wasn't a

marketplace

and he light goes on his head goes I

like painting but I'm poor I'm living in

this loft I have no money but I know

computer programming I have a great feel

for it but I also know about painting I

know about design about know what looks

good I have the skill set to make an

incredible website which will be the

first website where you can actually

build something and sell products for

other businesses to build off of, right?

He went and did that and then I think it

was Yahoo or somebody like that that

bought his company out for like 10 mill

million dollars and that was the start

of things. He from that he built always

upward. But he developed two incredible

unrelated skills, computer programming,

design and painting and then he combined

them into creating this new company.

>> Yeah. I think one thing that you touched

on with program that I found super super

interesting was the combination of kind

of art and programming. For people out

there listening, I'm on the back end of

my 30s. I think it's very important to

understand and know you must pick the

right skills cuz there's compounding

effects where there comes a certain age

which I'm very curious what age you

think where if you've invested 10 15

years of your life to learn X skill, it

is not smart to put that skill and just

throw it away. You should probably

utilize some sort of element in that and

make a new concoction of using that

skill in something new.

>> Exactly.

>> When is that age? When do you think

someone, you know, it's kind of

counterintuitive to the Gary Vee where

you could start your life at 60, 70, 80

years old. When do you think you need to

understand and know this is what I'm

going to do with my life?

>> Well, everyone's different and it's good

to have an idea of what you want and

what you love when you're 18 or when in

your college years if you go to college.

It's good to have a sense of what you

love and what connects to you, but to be

a specific project, a specific business.

You want if you if you're too

single-minded and you're 23, you know

exactly what you want, you won't have

adventures. You won't have that freedom,

that fluidity to learn different things.

Okay? So, I would say generally around

the age of 30, in your 30s is when

everything should start coming together.

Now, things can go up and down. they can

have a trajectory. I often think of um

Steve Jobs. So he's like Paul Graham. He

had a background in design because

really what Steve Jobs was a great

designer.

He had computing skills but not on the

level of of Wnjak or people like that.

>> Calligraphy classes he took as well too.

>> Huh.

>> He took calligraphy classes as well. He

was he was an artist.

>> He was an artist. His real interest was

in the look of technology, in the design

of things, how things felt, how they

felt in your hand, how they looked.

Okay? And so he So what I the reason I

pick him out is your career can go like

this, like this, like this, and it goes

up, but they're going to be downturns,

and how you handle those downturns are

going to be extremely important. So

nobody has a straight line up. So he has

this design background. He starts the

first iteration with Wnjak. He has

Apple. They have success, but he's not

good with people. He knows that. He

admits that. And he burned himself out

and the company was bought brought in

other people and he was eventually

fired, right? So, he's going like this

and now his career is going like that.

But he didn't like sink down, right? He

kept at it. He started another company

called Next, which was actually a very

interesting company if you if you look

at the computers he was making, but it

failed. It was a failure. Okay. So, it's

like this. It's going down. It's going a

little bit up. Now, it's going down

again. And then he's brought back to

Apple because Apple isn't doing so well

back in, I believe, the late 90s. He

learned all of these lessons in the

meantime. He He's in his 30s then.

Probably late 30s.

>> Late 30s. Okay. He's learned all these

lessons. He's learned that he can't be

an anymore like he was early on.

He learned what failed at Apple, why

next failed. He was set up for an

brilliant brilliant comeback. Okay. So,

I guess the point I'm saying is your

your career is never going to be

straight up. If it's straight up, you're

in trouble. Your failures, if you're

bold and you try things and it fails,

you've learned lessons. Don't let it

sink you. let it be a lesson for your

next project and have another iteration

and go in a slightly different direction

as he did. He realized he couldn't start

his own company so he went back to Apple

but he completely revolutionized it and

made it according to his own image.

>> I want to fire a couple more questions.

Uh you said money isn't just money. What

do you mean by that?

>> Well, I mean what is money? I mean think

of it. It's a human invention that we

have created. Now why do I say that?

Because money is pure psychology, right?

Look at I talked about Elon Musk and how

he turned like alchemy. He turned a

company that was nothing into powerful.

He attracted all this money because of

attention because he understood the

attention game. He understood the

psychology, the psychological element

that translated into money. You look at

the crash of 2008

and all of these people going into these

derivatives and these real estate

investments, right? Completely

irrational as looking back it was like

what were people thinking? Wasn't based

on anything real. It was based on a mob

mentality on lemmings going over the

hill all believing that this because

other people were signing off on it, I'm

going to sign off of it. Which is how

bubbles always happen. Bubbles are

classic examples of money is pure

psychology. Some people now are

speculating

that AI is going to turn into a bit of a

bubble because so many companies are

throwing billions of dollars into AI

right now and it's not really paying

off. It's not leading. It's not

translating into productivity. It's not

translating into profits. It could be a

bubble. But I'm saying people follow

trends. They put their money according

to what they think is going to be good.

Look at the stock market right now. The

stock market is pure psychology. People

believe something is happening. They

believe in the future. They're

optimistic. They're bullish. Well, let's

invest. At at a turn, a slight turn in

psychology. They become bearish. It's

pure psychology. You have to understand

that. I don't I don't know why that that

seems so strange. seems so obvious to

me.

>> Seems like psychology, persuasion,

reputation, and attention kind of.

>> Yeah.

>> Concoction of all those things as well.

>> All of that that you just mentioned is

is all about human psychology. How do

you get attention? You know, how do you

market things? You have to understand

the psychology of people. You could have

the best product in the world. You put

all the money into it. Do you don't know

how to market it? What good does it do?

Marketing is pure psychology.

Love that. Last question before we get

into the final round. Which strategy of

seduction is most effective in business

and what are the risks of misusing it?

>> What I wanted to do in the art of

seduction was to show that seduction is

a bit of psychology. It's a strategy.

What ties all seductions together is

people are resistant to you. Nobody is

naturally open to another stranger.

Right? Seduction is getting those walls

down. getting to crumble, getting them

to lower down to a point where they are

going to maybe do what you want, where

they're interested in your project,

where they're interested in following,

where they want to be involved with you

in some way. It's the art of bringing

all of their defenses down. And if you

do it too directly, if you hit them with

a hard the hard cell, the walls just go

back up because we're all wary of people

who will give us the hard cell. But if

you come from the side and you do the

soft sell and you're gentle and you do

like a viral approach like people

everybody else is buying my product I

don't need to go out there and market it

and have advertising and most often

creating those kind of viral effects is

by far the strongest marketing tool that

you can have and I go I have a chapter

in that in the art of seduction. So, you

have to understand that people don't

naturally want to buy your product. They

don't want to listen to your music. They

don't want to read your books. They're

not interested in you. How do you seduce

them into doing that? Is the name of the

game.

>> It's a book on marketing. All right.

Last three questions we got here. I've

had an amazing time. Favorite book or

podcast and why?

>> Oh, God. All right. Mali is the Prince

and my favorite podcast. Well, you know,

I can tell you the most fun I've had on

on a podcast that I've been on. I don't

watch a lot of podcast because I'm way

too busy, but I had the best time on

Theo Vaughn's podcast and he's he's so

much fun to watch.

>> That was a loose one. You guys got

loose.

>> Very much so. And

>> we'll pop that up here.

>> I I I I can always watch him because

he's really he's really interesting.

He's somebody who's very unpredictable.

You never know exactly where he's going

to come from and that's what makes him

such a great interviewer and so if

you're out there Theo and I really

enjoyed your podcast.

>> Well, that entrepreneur or brand that

you want to give flowers to and why?

>> Oh boy, that's a tough one. I mean, I'm

really into health and fitness.

Obviously, I had a stroke, so it's even

a little bit more urgent for me. So

there's some companies out there, some

startups that have done really well, not

just so I'm thinking of a company called

Momentous,

>> great supplement company,

>> great supplement company. And I'll tell

you what the most important skill is in

the business world. We talked about it

earlier, but there's something else,

which is everything now is so inhuman.

You can never talk to anybody over the

phone or whatever. Say you're

dissatisfied with their product or

something went wrong, right? They put

you through this maze like for like a

rat so that you hang up so that you

never get have to talk to a human being.

Everything has to be online. There's no

feedback. There's no relationship

between the client and the product

people selling the product. And we all

feel so frustrated with that.

Everybody's dealt with that. Everybody

hates it. Sometimes you just want to

talk to somebody. You want to hear them.

Companies that give you feedback that

are open to interacting with you. Yeah.

It costs money. Yeah. Instead of having

farming it out to some people in in

Pakistan or on a phone bank answering

you, it's actually somebody in Texas on

a phone who's you can understand who's

telling you, you know, how they can

write it. Well, Momentous is that kind

of company. great products, really well

managed, really well put together, some

of the best supplements that you can

find, and they're friendly. They they're

open to you. They they interact with

you. I'd send some flowers to them. From

an ethics perspective, too, for people

listening, I forgot what the stack was.

It was the boost your testosterone. It

was Tongat Ali and something else. They

were doing three, four, five million on

one of these products. Their customers

loved it.

>> Who was this?

>> Momentous. Oh. and they took the product

off the shelf because they couldn't get

behind the science on it. So, they had a

product that was absolutely booming.

Their customers loved it and they took

it off the shelf. So,

>> that that that's a good that's an

excellent sign. Yeah, they they've got a

conscience. They're smart. They're

strategic. They understand and I think

they've got a great future.

>> Why don't you tell us a little bit about

your next book, Sublime? We're hoping

that you finish by the end of the year.

It's fourth quarter for Robert, guys.

He's got one more chapter left to go.

He's staying with us for a couple hours

now. I appreciate this. Tell everybody

about your next book, Sublime. say that

means that's the fourth quarter with

about like seven and a half minutes to

go and I'm driving towards the end zone

and hopefully I don't fumble. This is a

non-b businessiness book. Let's let's be

honest with it. But there is the chapter

I just wrote has something to do with

the business world. The chapter I just

wrote is about willpower and resilience

and how important that is to be able to

deal with pain, suffering, and adversity

and challenges and how that makes you

stronger and a better person and how

that is a sublime power in the human

animal to be so resilient where nothing

could beat you down. where you let you

allow yourself to feel the pain and you

grow from it because people nowadays are

so avoidant of any kind of conflict of

any kind of difficulty. So that chapter

I think will have a lot of relevance to

entrepreneurs but in general it's I hate

to use the word but it's a little bit

more of a spiritual book in that seven

years ago now I I came this close to

dying I had a stroke. I was driving my

car in Los Angeles. My wife had me pull

over. I didn't want to pull over. I was

going to keep driving. She forced it and

she called an ambulance. She saw my

face. The right side of my face was just

like falling. Something was really wrong

with me. I didn't know. I was like,

"Everything's fine." In that split

second where she didn't panic and she

called 911, she saved my life. My She

basically saved my life and they came

quickly. And so I came this close to

dying or this close to being brain dead.

Now that can have a deep effect on a

person. And I had always been meaning to

write a book on the sublime. And what I

mean by the sublime is I I like to

compare it to a circle. And that circle

is what we're all supposed to think and

do. It's kind of a limiting factor where

in our particular culture, these are the

thoughts that you have. These are the

behaviors that you do. These are the

values that you have. This is the con

things that you conform to, right? And

outside that circle is everything that

you're not supposed to do, everything

you're not supposed to think, everything

that's different, that's strange, that's

weird, that's not normal. That is the

sublime. And I'm trying to lure you

outside of the circle in these 12

different directions to experience

something beyond your normal limits,

beyond your normal boundaries that's

going to shake your brain up and make

you realize that the world you thought

was this way is actually this way. You

don't know what reality is. You have

this image, but things are much

stranger, much weirder, much more

sublime and awesome than you imagine.

It's a book to shake you out of your

complacency, to shake you out of this

idea that you know what the world is

like and to make you realize you're

ignorant, that the world is mysterious

and beautiful for being mysterious. So

each chapter is outside that. And the

ultimate chapter, the 12th chapter, the

one I'm writing now, it's about death.

It's about death is sort of the ultimate

limit that we all face. But to be able

to experience it, to understand what may

lie on the other side, what it is, is

the ultimate sublime experience, right?

Because we don't know. Nobody knows what

happens to us after we die. Yeah, we

think we just decay. We just die in the

ground. But people have these called

near-death experiences. They're very

strange. They're very weird. What

happens to our consciousness as we die?

And so because I lived through that,

it's not like an intellectual thing to

me. I lived with death being inside my

body with me feeling a creeping

sensation of everything decaying and

softening inside. I have a different

relationship to death than most people

do. So I want to communicate that in the

last chapter. So that's sort of what my

new book is about.

>> That was amazing. Trailer for your next

book is The Sublime. Is that your last

dance? This is the last book.

>> Well, if I if I don't have a heart

attack or something, and there might be

there'll be other books. But I can tell

you this, I'm in my 60s. I'm actually in

the latter half of my 60s, if you could

believe it. I don't have the energy that

I used to have. I'm slowing down. And

the other thing is I can't type. My left

hand is pretty useless. So, I have to

handr write everything.

>> Wow. I used to take long walks or go for

these long swims or go mountain biking

to get my mind off my work and to stir

up new ideas. Can't do any of that. I'm

just trapped in my room. It's It's been

so exhausting to write this book like

that. I can't do it anymore. So, my next

book is going to be quicker and smaller

and slimmer and easier. I know I keep

saying that every time, but I have to.

do this. I I just can't handle it

anymore.

>> The stress.

>> I have one more question for you that is

kind of a cliche question. I've never

asked it and I've never wanted to ask

it, but with you specifically, I'm just

deeply curious.

What would Robert Green tell his younger

self? What's the advice that you would

give yourself? I feel like you have a

lot of wisdom and you've lived multiple

lives and recreated yourself.

>> Well, I I would say, Robert, don't

worry. Everything is going to work out

for the best. You're doing the right

thing. So my philosophy in life, if you

if I had to say I have one philosophy,

it's called amor fati, which is Latin

for love of fate. And what that means is

everything happens for a reason. Even

the bad things that happen to you have a

purpose to them if you know how to

handle it. If you embrace the bad stuff

that happens to you, nothing nothing can

ever hurt you or harm you. You learn

from every bad experience. So getting

fired or losing my job from that woman

that was kind of bothering me, I learned

great lessons for it. It made me

stronger. Having people tell me when I

was 25, "Robert, you're not a good

writer. You're not going to end up being

a writer. You should go to business

school." It made me stronger. It made me

tougher. It made me more resilient. Made

me learn. Everything is a learning

experience. Nothing is wasted if you

have this philosophy. It's something

that the Stoics and Ryan Holidayiday

talks a lot about his book, The Obstacle

is the Way. Brilliant book,

>> great book.

>> But nothing is is just meaningless.

Everything has a purpose behind it. And

so all the bad stuff that happened to me

when I was in my 20s, all the feelings I

had of I of being lost, they ended up

having a purpose because I used it that

way. So I would have told myself, don't

worry, Robert. Don't be despondent.

Don't despair or despair. It's fine to

feel despair because everything in the

end will feel f will work out. It's all

as I tell other people my motto in life

besides a morate is it's all material.

Everything that happens is material for

me to use in my books for my mind to

feed off of. So I wouldn't have told

myself actually I wouldn't tell myself

anything. I would have shut up and said

just go on do your life. Don't listen to

me Robert. You're fine. I just took a

hard turn there. I appreciate you, man.

You're a living legend. As I mentioned

off camera in the beginning, this is one

of the first books that I recommend

people to read. Good to Great by Jim

Collins and 48 Laws of Power are the

two. Thank you so much for coming and

taking time out day. Where can everybody

find you? Where's the best place for

them to find you online?

>> Well, I I keep quoting my I think my

website is still

powereductionandwar.com.

the end spelled out power

seductionandwar.com

and there you'll find links to X to

Instagram

to Tik Tok and to YouTube. We just went

over 2 million subscribers on YouTube

thanks to Stanley. So you can find me on

all of those platforms or you can visit

that website. I also have a newsletter

that you can get but you'll find all the

information there.

>> Amazing guys. I'm going to link that in

the description below. Robert, I

appreciate you, my man.

>> Thank you so much, Mark. I had a great

time.

>> What's up, guys? If you guys got this

far in the episode, I would assume that

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would mean the world if you hit the

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