Timeline Mud Wrestling, Apple Play Coming to Old Porsches, SI Domain Debate — Transcript

You're watching TVPN. >> Today's Thursday, October 1st, 2026. [applause] We are live from the TVP Ultradome, the temple of technology, [applause] the fortress of finance, the capital of capital. >> Let me tell you about ramp.com. Time is money. Save both corporate cards, bill pay accounting, and a whole lot more all in one [applause] place. [cheering] >> Dead started today. Uh great show yesterday. uh we uh uh put the timeline in turmoil with uh the MongoDB debate around the responsibility of uh CEO. I thought it was a really fantastic conversation. I I came away like wow this uh uh you know uh this is like a unfortunate situation but a lot of cause for optimism. Yeah. And uh and I think he he summed it up well without uh going too aggressive, but let but uh you know pass the information through. Exactly.

Exactly. And I I saw a lot of love for the clip. I saw a lot of people quote quoting the clip and say like, "Oh yes, like okay, this confirms like my what what what my uh position was beforehand." So I thought that was cool. >> This confirms my pre-existing position. [laughter] Thank you. >> Yeah, I suppose. >> Thank you for confirming what I already believe. >> Yeah. The timeline was uh was also in turmoil over uh uh co K coastla ventures cognition factory. We can go into that. Uh there was one interesting thing that happened on the show yesterday that I didn't really I I uh I started thinking about after the show ended. So our first two guests were from Nvidia and Coreweave and obviously those two companies like work really closely together and the conversations were sort of different. We were talking about uh security with Nvidia and then Cororeweave of course were interviewing the CEO. So we're talking about the the business overall and their transition from a uh rent a GPU company to a more of a full AI cloud. They'll rent you everything you need. Um and it was interesting because I was remembering

that uh there was it was just like last year that Nvidia was like we're going to layer Cororeweave or we're going to layer all the Neoclouds. We're going to be the front door to compute uh with DGX cloud leptin. I don't know if you remember any of this, but uh this started uh back in like 2023 post the chat moment. Jensen comes out on stage at one of the keynotes he gives and he says like this is the iPhone moment and we're going to aggregate all of the underlying compute and you're going to be able to come to us and deploy whatever resources you are and we're going to compete with like AWS and Azure and GCP and we're going to be a one-stop shop for this stuff and it's going to be really important. And at the time, I feel like people were sort of like, whoa, okay, this is bold, but this could be really really powerful. Um, because they have this odd tension between the uh uh the neoclouds where uh you if you go in, you lose your

connection to your customer effectively uh and the margins could get compressed. You're in a much more competitive environment. Uh, and at the same time, if you don't go in, then Nvidia can just say, "Hey, like, you know, all the DGX cloud leptin customers, well, we're going to send them to the clouds that did sign up." And so, you have this like tension. They really did really did it really did feel like Nvidia had some leverage, biggest company in the world very shortly after. And obviously a very aggressive business, like they're they're not just going to be like, "Oh, that would be improper to compete."

Yeah. >> Um but it but it played out very differently and Nvidia has become very friendly with Cororeweave and they both found their places where there's still a little competition here and there but uh I was just reflecting on like how that journey came together where that where that landed and um and it it the long story short is that like uh the the DJX product it came out and the reviews weren't like okay yeah this is actually better than working with Coreeave and there was still so many benefits from going to a neocloud or even a you know true cloud provider. There was just more to do. Uh Nvidia made an acquisition.

They bought Leptin where the name came from uh in April 2025 which sort of kicked most of that discourse off. Um the rumor was that they paid between 300 and $900 million for that. And uh and and Jensen was like so gassed up on this. I loved his quote. He said NVIDIA DJX Cloud Leptin connects our network of global GPU cloud providers with AI developers together with our NCPs which is Nvidia cloud providers. [music] Uh we're we're building planet a planetary scale AI factory. That's what his tagline was. Uh which makes sense like there is a world where that would have played out. That's not one second. Talk about how we have failed so far to convince a lot of our friends not to call supercomputers AI factories. Yeah.

Right. >> If we continue to fail, they're going to be like, "It's a refinery. [laughter] It's a It's an AI offshore decker. It's an oil decker for AI." Like [laughter] >> it's a chemical plant for AI. >> For AI. Yeah. It's exactly what you want in your community. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Rough. Anyway, >> the risk of of total failure in your backyard is low, but non zero. >> Non zero. Yeah. And then you have another person [laughter] who's >> like, "Wait, why did you say that?"

>> Yeah. Ridiculous. I want to go back to supercomputers. We'll make it happen eventually. Hopefully. >> Gabe says, "It's a data ranch, brother." >> Data ranch. There we go. >> Putting a data ranch in your backyard. >> Yeah. Um but yeah, I mean at at the time uh there was a bunch of reporting sort of like people familiar with the matter, the information got a scoop from a bunch of the Neocloud compute providers saying um like Lepon was a potential competitive threat and uh and if you refuse to participate that creates a risk that Nvidia could direct workloads toward competitors. Um and it was this it was a bit of this tense time. Uh but the end result was more balanced.

instead of layering their customers and trying to control aggregate demand which would be really powerful if it happened um uh the product evolved into this unified AI platform which is their their words but basically it's it's between an actual like Expedia for GPUs and just a set of standards. So it's a bunch of proprietary software it is sort of what makes up the CUDA moat. So everything from uh handling GPU node groups, interactive dev pods, distributed batch jobs, inference endpoints, storage, observability, reservations, more. So all the things that you need to actually schedule, manage GPUs, you can run that, but you can still use your own hardware, do whatever you need to have the relationship with the underlying owner of the GPUs. Uh and so the rest of the NeoClouds are are generally like uh you know pretty safe. Um, and so it was it was interesting because it was it was it was heralded as this like, oh, okay, things could get spicy. You could see all the neoclouds like really chirping

at Jensen, Jensen really coming for the throat. Uh, didn't really play out that way. But it does sort of go to show that uh uh Jensen is does not take lightly to uh to any whispers that the Cuda moat is going away anytime soon. Like he's he he's like the ace is still up the sleeve in my opinion. like they still have to do a lot of work because when semi analysis actually like demoed it they were like ah it's not working as well as some of the other systems like if you were to put I don't even know if Nvidia cloud leptin is on cluster max but but they would they would at at the time that they tested it they were like yeah you're going to have a better experience if you just go direct coreweave nebas the other ones that are in the platinum tier um >> yeah overall overall I think in in many ways we've seen it's been very strategic to work with 50, 100 really, really, really smart teams that are going to have their own incentives to grow their businesses, grow their their buying of of Nvidia.

>> Yeah. And if you just use the if you just use the framework of like >> who was upset yesterday about Coreweave launching their what was the actual product called? Coreweave Forge, which is their like AI cloud, right? So, they're just saying, "Hey, we got CPUs now, we got storage, we got tools to manage all of that." uh who's really mad it's like it's only their direct competitors basically who are like ah now we got to catch up if you're a CPU seller or you're a compute a storage seller or something like that you're like great I got a new customer I'm happy and then if you're a customer of core weave you're like okay I'm happy I get more stuff and so uh it was yesterday's core weave move was not particularly a uh uh like a shot across the bow to anyone other than just like hey we know we're in a race with like 300 other neo clouds you see them on cluster max we're going to do more to reach that diamond tier which is what you proposed. Um but yeah really really remarkable margin expansion story. I mean the depreciation uh the depreciation story like they beat the

depreciation allegations pretty quickly but that that value of like dollar per watt is increasing really really quickly. And so if they can get in line with uh with the Elon and Jensen 60 billion a gigawatt uh it's it's going to be a very very exciting business. It already is an exciting business, but uh it was a it was a fun conversation and that's what my wheels were turning about yesterday. Uh let me tell you about console. Console builds AI agents that automate 70% of IT HR and finance support giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets. Uh let's go over to the timeline. You you >> anything going on yesterday?

>> You said you wanted to get in the mud and wrestle with pigs even though the pig likes it and you get muddy. >> Yeah. >> Okay, let's wrestle. >> Yeah. >> What are we wrestling about today? Uh yeah, so we we kind of caught some of this live at the beginning of the show yesterday, but the post >> kept flowing yesterday. What really got people up in arms was >> Venode >> coming in and saying you are a struggling second tier competitor that is more unethical and lying just because you have no decency or sense of proper behavior and shows your desperation straight out lying about if Chris being fired I thought would be below even you just like the most the most um crashing out on Matan's personal crash out um [laughter] >> sure >> so crash out on crash out violence >> of a three pilot. Um, it only took about 20 seconds for people to put it together that Coastal Ventures is of course an investor uh in factory and cognition >> and like a pretty big one, right? But is

funny enough an example that like venture firms can have firewalls and individual people >> that have exposure to one company >> that might want to get involved with another company can still behave in a way that is ultimately like ethical. Yeah. Right. I'm not saying that Venode, you know, attacking his port is, but >> yeah. Was Keith still at FF when Cognition when they did Cognition? I think he might have already been at Kla potentially then. And so I I think Keith might be the the the factory board member or something. I don't know. I I just saw Keith coming to Matan's defense. Yeah. Right. Which is obviously the the Coastal Ventures divide, but that's the nature of these of these uh these partnerships. Um >> sort of he sort of clear that Venode's not using AI for these posts.

>> Totally. total all all over the place grammatically [laughter] >> straight out lying. >> You are a competitor that is more unethical and lying. That's not right. >> This was firing from the hip. He's down here just >> but he's he's got to lay it down. He's got to lay it down. I mean what what this really could say is that even though you have an economic incentive to align with this person, you need to distance yourself from them because you know that they are in the wrong. Like that's like the fact that Venode has bags here and he's still posting this makes it more severe, right? Like >> yeah but I but but I think it's >> I think there is a chance that Venode kind of forgot that >> you think had exposure. I think I I got you got to put that at like 15%.

>> I I just feel like Yeah. Uh >> I forgot. Is that possible? I don't know. I don't know what I mean. He's a multi-billionaire. The the the economic >> I mean he was coming here. He was coming he came on the show last week last week to talk about uh faux >> fo >> he's clearly working more closely with another >> you >> was it called fa >> uh I I like that I would sign up for that. Uh but uh yeah, he's clearly like on the board of that company and not on the board of Factory because the really crazy thing is like how did this not how did this go straight on the timeline?

Like like this should have been a text message and maybe it was but you're only talking about two and a half hours. I feel like if a portfolio founder is out of control, you would text them and say, "Hey, you are in the wrong. You're about to get smoked. Uh you don't have the leverage here." Like you would say, "Hey, look, you're you're a second tier competitor and you're being unethical and you're lying, so I think you should take the post down and apologize." You know, you would say that behind closed doors. Yeah. You would text that. You would not just go straight to the truth nuke from outer space, which is what Venode did.

>> It's a truth, right? >> Well, well, I don't I don't even think it's necessarily I wouldn't call it a a truth nuke because it's it's an ad hominant like he just went directly at him. He didn't even talk about >> any of the facts. So, here's the thing. So, so Luke Metro, >> if he knows if he knows the facts are true >> and it's we don't we don't disagree that it's a nuke. Correct. >> It's definitely a nuke. >> It's definitely a nuke. The question is, is it a truth nuke or is it an ad hominemm nuke? >> And I think it might be a truth nuke because I think as an investor, you might actually know the truth of what happened.

You might know because he could go into like the internal Kosla Slack or something and say like who are the board members? Is this guy actually a board member? You know, like like what what files have been shared from factory to our board? Oh, nothing relevant that would be useful to cognition. You know, he could have made that decision. >> What are you What are you calling it, Tyler? Ad hom. >> Ad hom. Okay, it's an ad hom. We'll leave it there. I think we we close that out. But take so Luke Metro said what I think everyone was thinking. Can we please not start cognition versus factory before we get a resolution to rippling versus deal? Uh great post.

That being said, wildly different situation than Ripling versus Deal. When the Rippling deal drama broke, there was immediately >> insane, seemingly insane smoking guns. Yep. >> That are getting worked out through the court system. But it was like a Ripling had basically like tricked Deal in some ways, right? >> Wait, really? Oh, I don't remember that at all. >> Um I mean it's it's sort of fuzzy at this point. >> It was like a honeypot operation. That is sort of a trick. That's sort of tricky. Okay. Yeah.

>> Well, yeah. Honeypot is better. >> I I think that was like their their term, right? They they put the honeypot. current my current um my current read is that CRO, you know, the adviser goes to Matan and says, "I'm getting poached." And Matan says, "You can't get poached. You're being fired for unethical conduct." But the firing happened days after he was notified that he was leaving for a competitor.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Keith Keith uh said it is unethical per se to even interview at a competitor while attending board meetings and board dinners. And and I I I read this and I was like, "Yeah, I I think that's right. I think I agree with that." But then but then I was thinking about like how would you do this re how would he have done this more responsibly if that's what happened? And I was like, "So, so the you have to you have to resign because you think that you should go interview at a competitor and then reach out to them." And it doesn't it doesn't seem it doesn't seem like that's the way things happen that often. I don't know.

People like even direct competitors will maintain, you know, somewhat jovial uh you know, interactions. Oh, how's it going? Oh, it's going great. Yeah, cool, man. like and both parties are kind of just saying nothing, but you are having like a conversation technically because you like bump into someone at a conference. You might both be on stage at the same part talking about agentic AI or something. I don't know. Um, [snorts] and then and then I was thinking about like how does this rank if he was uh if the if the new cognition CRO, I forget his name, was um on the uh Chris Denon, you know, if Chris Denon was on the he was a board observer or board advisor. What's the terminology?

>> I think his only, from what I understand, his only technical title was adviser. >> Adviser. Okay. So, I'm just thinking like back to your back to your original frame of like is this more or less hardcore than before? And I'm thinking about like the Steve Jobs and Eric Schmidt interaction where like Eric Schmidt is on the board of Apple and being like, we're buying Android over at Google. We're launching Android over at Google. And Steve Jobs gets pissed. Yeah. >> Uh but it doesn't spell out on the timeline.

>> Or that's where Steve Jobs >> or another another comp is like Mike Kger. >> Oh, yeah. uh his involvement with Figma >> and resigned from the board I think a couple days before launch a day before launching a a competitor. Right. >> So again this stuff has been happening but the funny thing is to see this like whole all this drama around companies that provide basically enterprise applications. >> Mhm. uh when when you look at what's happening on the research side where aggressive constant aggressive poaching around like >> truly like companies developing truly novel IP that basically have no protections where you can work at a company for 5 years learn a bunch about what they do get poached and bring all of that knowhow over to a new company within the same 24-hour period right and so I just don't >> this whole situation like an adviser that gets poached doesn't feel like a big deal at all to

me in the context of everything else that's been happening. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's just >> like and and and ultimately I don't think I think the story is like over like I think it's it >> No, I think you're right. It's Yeah. It's different because like the researchers do post but they don't they don't have like they don't have as many interactions with VCs. So, like there's uh there's that back and forth about the three OpenAI researchers who were just fired according to the Wall Street Journal for sharing information, but like that doesn't reach the level of like board interaction, right? So, you're not going to see board members, at least that I can tell, um like doing drama about it. And even when the talent wars happened between Meta and OpenAI, like we were the ones that were posting the most like spicy stuff about it, right? Uh because like the board members, they don't necessarily have the same level of interaction with the researchers as the other board advisers.

Yeah. And so I think this this just gets a lot more personal, I think. Anyway, you want to close the book on this? >> Are you sure? >> Miles says, "I work with Okay, we're going back into the trough." >> Let's go back. >> Let's go back. >> Let's go find the pigs. >> Let's do it. >> Uh Miles says, "I work with a company that's doing great by all definitions. Recently, one of its star executives was poached by an A+ company to lead a very popular product. Founders tried to retain him. They couldn't, so they wished him well and began the recruitment process to replace him. The investors sent him notes thanking him for all his work. No temper tr tantrums or ethics debate debates or Twitter name dragging, just grown-ups get back to work. Uh, and Martin over at A16C says, "Boring."

[laughter] Uh yeah, but that's kind of what Miles is advocating for. He's like, "These these types of interactions should be boring, right?" So, I don't know. That's reasonable. Uh Sean Magcguire says, "Nice one from the cheap seat." So, you know, 1% of the story. And Sean's really like teasing something. He's like, "There's going to be the files. There's going to be some crazy drop. There's going to be another truth nuke. It's going to be truth World War II. Something like that." >> Yeah. >> Um but has he actually posted anything?

Like it feels like today is the day to like share the uh like the truth. >> I hope everyone can uh sort it out behind the scenes. >> Yeah. I don't know. Uh yeah, he said he has a nuclear weapon and Yeah, that's a truth nuke. He has a truth nuke. That's what he's saying. A nuclear weapon on the timeline. Um but >> he did come out and say cognition is infosys masquerading as anthropic. Uh and then which is funny because Infosys um does like technology IT transformation which is in many ways what cognition does. Um so it it but the only thing I would disagree with Sean on is I I don't see cognition like masquerading as anthropic.

>> No, not at all. You talked to Scott Woo and he's like, "Yeah, we're providing enterprise value, >> automating code generation and business." >> Yeah. Yeah. It's not an anthropic lab at all over there. [laughter] I mean, like they they they take their business seriously, but that's not an anthropic that's not a uniquely anthropic. >> Well, and also also this would tell me that the two that factory and cognition are going in very different directions. Thinks the Infosys direction is bad. And hopefully they can go in different directions. >> That's great. >> And maybe they could even work together at some point. >> Oo. Oh, okay. Yeah. Uh, and maybe you don't need the snowflake CRO if you have discovered some fundamental thing, right? Like like the whole the whole tease was like we did something on the research side, but like that doesn't matter if your CRO leaves, right?

>> Yeah. >> Hopefully he didn't hopefully he doesn't even understand it. He doesn't even understand what's going on in the research department. He's like, I don't know. That's a bunch of mumbo jumbo. Just tell me who to call and sell it to. >> Yeah. >> I don't know. Anyway, let me tell you about Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business, lets you sell in seconds online, in store, on mobile, on social market places, and now with AI agents. Moving on. What's next? [screaming] Bunch of people got slop ads from Instinct. They're upset. I'm helmet cuz I think it's good.

>> Yeah, get the Steel Man helmet. >> But I would clarify. I don't I don't think they're I would be shocked if they're actually monetizing this already. Seems like it was just an experiment, right? Yes. Can we can we suggest products that people will want to buy >> because it would be a big it would be a >> I think everybody that the um Noah has been very explicit that they plan to do this, right? They plan to get deals with different retailers and platforms and be able to monetize the purchases that they draw. Yeah. Now, something I've always said or at least said a lot in the last month or so is that if you want to get to the point where you can have meaningful take rates, you need to be driving net new demand, right? So, if I go to my personal agent and say, >> "Buy me this thing, right? The demand was created elsewhere like that that it was generated with like advertisement or >> or organic content or some something caused me to want to go and buy it." and brands are not going to be standing up

and lining up to pay big referral fees effectively when they already paid to create the demand elsewhere. And so >> this instinct test is hey we have a >> we understand this person. >> Let's s let's basically suggest some products that they maybe weren't thinking about >> but they would buy and >> like a phone charger [laughter] >> like a power bank >> like a power bank >> or some sunscreen. I just like I saw like 12 different screenshots that were all power banks and it's like it is sort of universal like if you were gonna if you were going to blast just blast that.

I mean yeah I mean we talked to the shot at the ridge and he's like yeah they just move like it's a good business [laughter] but uh I don't know. So uh we got to just figure out like are they actually monetizing this? because Instinct is in a position where you could literally just go and set up an Amazon referral uh fee thing and start taking a cut. And websites have done that for a long time. Like if you go to the Wire Cutter, now owned by the New York Times, you will be able to click on check out for a suitcase, for some sunglasses, for the best TV they have. And if you click on one of their partner sites, it puts a cookie there. and when you check out, they actually do make a referral commission. I would be surprised if Instinct wasn't monetizing that. Um, but at the same time, I think they might not even need to because the scale of what they're trying to do is more just like understand the consumer and then have a ne have a have the next proof point for

the next raise because obviously it's incredibly compute intensive. They're going to be they're growing very quickly. They're going to be raising very quickly. and being able to go back to the next round of ECS and say, "Hey, we've actually tested e-commerce and it converts at seven times the rate of Instagram ads or whatever." And it's like, we have this this much surface area and here's the response. And yes, there was a lot of feedback that was like, "Oh, this is slop." Uh, who who said it's shop slop or whatever? >> Shop slop. Dave Morren called it from OpenClaw.

>> Yeah. Some somewhat somewhat biased, right? He's running the the open like he's running the foundation. >> Oh, sure. >> Claw. Sure. >> Which, >> you know, is like basically own your compute, own your agent, >> don't get ads pushed to you, have your agent be aligned to you. That that's that's their stance. >> I think that overall here's here's the thing. Here's the thing, >> please. >> If they can actually give you a 10 out of 10 recommendation, people will love it, right? like when you when someone recommends you a product and you're just instantly like, "Yes, this is great."

Yeah, >> that's a wonderful experience. The question is how quickly >> how quickly can they get there? It didn't really feel like they were nailing it, but we don't know. Like maybe people are sharing screenshots. Like one of these was pretty cool. Uh it was um uh they found like some row loafers which are >> generally they generally sell out. They're kind of hard to find. >> Yeah. >> Um and so it's possible >> this person didn't like it, but I think a lot of people would be like, "Cool, thank you."

>> And you're like, "This is this is the worst thing ever." And then you see one thing you like and you're like, >> "Okay, I'm No, the one that I saw that that I thought was funny was >> uh Instinct knew that this guy had a 9/11 target." >> Yeah. And uh because they had worked on some insurance stuff. >> Yeah. >> But the issue is that Instinct was like basically clock like, "Okay, this guy's a car guy. I gotta hit him with a bunch of car stuff." >> Then it recommends a trickle charger, which 911s >> really don't need, especially modern 911s.

>> And an indoor cover. Yeah. to use inside your garage, which car guys I know would never use an indoor cover because said this yesterday briefly at the end of the show, but >> because if you have any sort of the basically like the um the cover against the paint can cause more damage than it just like sitting there, right? So, you generally want it out of the sun, but >> uh but you're better off just like leaving it especially because if there gets if if there can be any debris between the cover and the paint, you get even more wear. Um, and >> but you can imagine how that model it knows about the user, but it doesn't know about what car people actually want, right? And so they can probably get better.

>> They could recommend like a straight pipe exhaust system or underlighting or something that a car guy would want for their target, right? >> Yes. Yeah. Or spinners as you always say, >> spinners or even just knobbyby off-road tires. a uh a an off-road kit, something like that. Um yeah, with the shop slop screenshot here from Dave Morren, um what sticks out to me is uh the the fact that there's like five let's buy this buttons. I don't know like this seems like a normal e-commerce site, but the the repetition there of all the calls to action is what's throwing me off and making this look sloppy. I don't know if that's what's triggering me, but the actual recommendations there of a couple things.

>> Well, it's funny because this was this was always a historical concern with AI ads is >> the AI that you trust for information and to help you do things suddenly is like, come on, let's like I think we should buy this, you know, let's buy this. What do you think? Should we buy this? Right? And it's like it it ends up feeling a little this feels a little bit pushy. The other thing that stands out is is, you know, they've taken a very UI light approach, right? The Noah has said you don't need new interfaces. You know, it has a computer, it has a phone number, it has a number that you can text, >> but I feel like >> they're going to need to they have to make interfaces, right? And this is one one of the first.

>> Yeah. And um and then yeah, again the challenge is like getting pushed products in text is just very very very p it's just very very personal. Yeah. Right. >> Um and I think that >> a lot of e-commerce brands, you know, will use text marketing. I find that I'm like a thousand times more likely to unsubscribe from text marketing than I am to uh from email marketing, right? Um >> well yeah I mean it can be dangerous to operate on the previous era of like text message conversion rates and open rates because we have moved into a regime where my iMessage at least probably yours as well has a number of folders for unknown senders promotions spam transactions and if it starts flagging instinct or your AI agent not as a friend but as a promotions vehicle, it

goes in that bucket and then the open rate goes way down. And this is what happened with like the newsletter apocalypse and Gmail where you got filtered off into a different section. You're not actually in the inbox anymore. And so that's that's pretty risky. Um, I I was I was demoing DOT yesterday and just had a phone call with it on the way home and was shopping and said like, "Go find this pair of pants that I bought in my Gmail. Go find another uh pair in like a slightly different color." And it was hunting around and it [clears throat] was just like I nothing's in stock in your size, bro. And I was like, "Uh, is there some like global pants outage or something?

Like what's going on?" on and it was like, "No, this isn't like a conspiracy or something." [laughter] Uh, but I was actually like kind of laughing back and forth. >> Crazy. They're crazy. >> It was a pretty It was a pretty delightful experience. But, uh, but but like my end result was like I was like, I don't want you just to send me random stuff, but I do actually want you to check on this. So, go create a background task to check like every day for this pair of pants and then just let me know if they come back and stop. And it's like I'm expecting one notification sometime in the next few months for that particular pair of pants and then I can just be like get it. Okay.

>> Yeah. >> But uh >> anyways, closing this segment out. Instinct is as of I think last week was like 13 or 14 people, right? Like tiny. They're shipping super quickly. Yeah. >> As a as a small team experimenting. I think that's important. Y >> um and they just hired our friend Ben from COTU who was at Snapchat for almost a decade >> leading like content and partnerships there. Yeah, >> he joined as a chief business officer at Instinct and I think that that is going to be a massive unlock for them. Um >> there's so much that Ben can do.

>> Yeah, I do think that there is >> to improve this experience and make it more like an AMX style experience, right? where it's very mass market and commercial, but they're trying to make it feel like elevated and and put the Yeah. put the user first. >> They might need to do a new pre-train specifically on car guy data >> to uh to really nail that, really dial that in. Um, no. I I think that there is a little bit of a gap between the ex Twitter community, the tech people, the insiders who are like, I don't want a bunch of ads. And like there's a lot of people who are like, yeah, like I actually enjoy going through all the newsletters and sales in my email. I like the email email, you know, promotional marketing materials and I watch the ads on Instagram. I like them.

I enjoy having products be shown to me in a >> There's some people that, you know, they maybe they park their car on a on a public street and then they go back to their car maybe after going to a restaurant. There's one of those like um business card ads like I will buy your junk car. You ever get [laughter] you ever get you ever get those? >> No. In LA, there's people that like they put a they'll put a business card like in your windows. Like >> I I've gotten that business card but for like uh like gardening or like we'll trim your trees like that type of I've never gotten an offer to buy my car.

>> Yeah, I've got the multiple times in LA like we buy junk cars. I'm like wow shots fired. I thought I was thought I was doing all right. [laughter] >> Yeah, it was kind of a kind of a neg. Um, but yeah, I I I think a lot of people will will will be excited to have like the daily text of like the best product that they could be that they could possibly buy. >> John says, "Nobody on earth can do what Ben can change his instinct overnight." I agree. >> No, I've had I mean, I've had a bunch of conversations with Ben about where consumer AI should go offline and uh he's going to crush it.

>> Okay, so uh let me tell you about Cisco, critical infrastructure for the AI era. unlock seamless real-time experiences and new value with Cisco. Uh the folks over at Debine picked the best day to launch Gemini for Argon when everyone's talking about factory and cognition of course, but uh it did break through some really impressive benchmarks. Uh also some controversy over how much Google employees are using it internally to code. of course we'll need to see the meme is we're launching gen Gemini 4 argon and a group of people are talking about did you see the factory guy calling out cognition guy and then uh the the Twitter sphere goes cool and then goes back to um uh the the the model agnostic the enterprise model agnostic harnesses are fighting uh and so it is certainly a tough day to launch when there's a lot of drama on the timeline that is more engaging than the model wars the model wars used to be the most engaging thing But now the interpersonal board dynamics are clearly taking a lead. Um, but what's going on

with the naming schemes here? So, open eyes >> says all my tokens are gone. [laughter] >> That's pretty funny. Uh, so the naming schemes, uh, open ais in the solar system, you got Luna for the moon, Terra for the earth, soul for the sun, Astra for the stars. Anthropic is doing haiku, a Japanese poem, a sonnet. It's a 14line poem. Opus, major work, fable, moral story, and then Google arrives with Argon. Just look at the image. The word Argon comes from the ancient Greek word Argos, which means lazy or inactive.

I think they're named after the element argon, and they're probably just going to go down the list of elements, which is a cool >> place to pull from. But, uh, yeah, tech leaders, you got to dig into these words, man. I keep saying this. Too many too many hubristic tales. I don't need any more project Titan. Project uh what was it? Behemoth. It's like you look it out like the untameable. Oh, you couldn't get it out. Interesting. What a kinky dink. Anyway, >> [snorts] >> um what else is going on in uh in Gemini world? Anything? Yeah, employees are sharing some skepticism. We'll see.

We'll see uh how it evolves, how they wind up using it um and and where it goes from there. Uh uh the the most trusted rating agency for over 30 years, Egon Jones is uh blackpilling says it's over. Uh complete disruption of the economy is now all but certain thanks to AI. Uh it has a community note. Now, Joe Weisenthal shared this, so I don't think it's fake news, but the purported Egon Jones Egan Jones risk commentary number 22 does not appear on the firm's website. Okay, it might be entirely fake.

>> They got him. >> Interesting. They got him. >> They got him. >> There's so much slop on the timeline. It's crazy. There was this fake uh there was this fake New York Times article about uh a stock photographer that was put out of uh work. And I feel somewhat responsible for this because I was doing this bit like a year ago where I would take quotes from our friends and put them just inspect element. No AI. I would just go and edit the HTML to to put a Jeremy Gon quote in the Financial Times and then screenshot it and share it to be like, "Oh, it's like funny that one of their tweets is in the in the Financial Times." And then we got to the point where like we were actually commenting and we were actually in the Wall Street Journal with our basically our tweets and our joke posts. Um, and so things got very muddy there. And then people took the, uh, the the the ability to instantiate these these joke posts, uh, little too far. So, uh, you can scroll the timeline and just and just see community note after community note of fake news. So, be safe out there. A lot of info hazards. Uh, but this one

isn't. Let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI. Their business is securing it. Crowdstrike secures AI and stops breaches. Uh, we got to talk about this house. We got to do another tier list. There's a house that's for sale in Los Angeles that is accepting OpenAI equity and anthropic equity and um we need to do another tier list to decide whether or not it's a good house. Is it worth precious shares in frontier AI or should the humble AI researcher sitting on 30 million of equity in a in a in a frontier lab uh sit this one out?

So, uh we have the Zillow here. I will pull it up and I want Jordy to give me some tier list stuff. So, uh, 1210 Chory Lane in Los Angeles, price cut, $4 million cheaper, a humble $30 million, five beds, 11 baths. Rate that ratio. Twice as many baths. Having twice as many baths as bedrooms. Where does that fit in the tier list? >> I think that's excellent.

>> That's excellent. A tier. >> A tier. >> A tier. We got an A tier for having twice as many bats. I'm like some extra bath. Uh00 It's a lot of bathrooms for a third of an acre. >> Okay, so third of an acre 35 technically just over a third of an acre. Where do you put the acreage? >> Uh D tier rough. Well, that's just a personal thing. It is you like to to me >> like smaller house on more land. Okay.

But but there's going to be some people that that are that are fired up on the view and they don't care that that um they can't really touch the earth anywhere on the property itself. >> Okay, we got some we got some other stuff in here. So it's set at the end of a quiet culde-sac. Where do you sit? Quiet culde-sacs. >> Are you a culde-sac guy? >> Um funue. Not not uh can can be rough on the fune side >> for defense purposes. >> No, no, no. Like trapped energy. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. So, I'm hearing D tier.

>> F tier. >> F tier for the culdesac. Okay. Culdeac's F tier. >> Sorry. Sorry, folks. >> It's fine. >> Sorry. >> Be honest. Be honest. Uh >> I mean, the view is really incredible. >> Okay. So, the view >> the view is the view is um S tier. >> S tier. What about the 110 linear feet of 11 ft motorized glass walls that disappear completely, transforming the great room into an open air retreat above the city. I hate motorized glass [laughter] wall. >> Okay, what are we doing?

>> Uh, in >> what tier >> are you putting it in? Motorized 110 ft of motorized >> experience. F tier. >> F tier. Like and and I say this because I unfortunately have them >> and [laughter] you have you can only put this in F tier if you've been like >> late at night, you know, you're trying to like turn off the lights and I accidentally hit the motorized door button. >> Yeah. >> Like literally middle of the night. Is it loud? >> At least mine you have to wait until they get to the end. Like >> it's gas powered so it needs to fire up a V6. It's not super loud, but it's it's incredibly annoying when you're sitting there and suddenly your entire house is open air, you know, past midnight.

>> Okay. Lightning round. Formal dining room. >> A tier. >> A tier. Oceanfacing library office. >> A uh S tier. >> S tier. Four stone islands. >> Is that too many? >> Maybe. Quite possibly. So, we're putting it in C tier. >> Okay. Lower level brings together media lounge and illuminated bar. Do you like an illuminated bar? >> Uh, not not for me, but but I think I think >> Give me a tier. [laughter] Give me a tier.

>> Uh, B tier. >> Temperature controlled wine room. >> Uh, if you turn it into a data center, I think it's a tier. >> Okay. [laughter] Cinematic theater. like Toby. Look, keep it >> cinematic theater. Uh S tier cuz I could say John. >> Hey, cuz I I'll be over using it. Okay. Uh glass enclosed fitness studio. Do you like a home fitness studio? >> Uh no. I don't like working out at home. >> So >> F tier. >> F tier. Okay. >> Working out in a gym in in a great gym is just a million times better.

>> Okay. We'll end with this one and I'm hoping for a good result. We're going with the 60 ft zeroed edge infinity pool and spa that appear to dissolve into the hills joined by multiple multiple lounge and fire areas, a full outdoor kitchen and a flat lawn. >> Dier D tier [laughter] what you said pools were Sier. >> The most elite setup for a pool is basically like grass surrounding the full pool. >> Okay. and and being able to go from grass straight into the water is is obviously F tier. Okay. And anytime it's just kind of like a body of >> grass to water is S tier. Out of the water and you're falling down the hill, that's F tier.

>> Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. I think we clarified it. Well, >> well, >> agree or disagree with Jordy. Make your call. As long as you got 30 million in cash, open a stock or anthropic equity because the seller will accept equity as payment. Fascinating. As much as I'm sure this is entertaining for our friend Will who's in the waiting room, he's got more important things to do than he does. Let me do a tier list. What's going on? >> Will Brewy from Varda. Welcome back to the show. How you doing? >> Hey, it's it's not that I disagree with Jordy. It's that it's inconsistent. You know, the the the pool inconsistency, you know, that infinity pool you just had. Definitely S tier. Come on, guys.

>> Yes. >> No shot. No shot. There's a bunch of houses in LA where you can get an infinity style pool on a sprawling lawn with the same view. >> Mhm. >> And I think >> anyways, I think the house is dramatically overpriced. That's all I'm going to say. That's all I'm going to say. >> Um but >> uh more importantly, >> space manufacturing, space industrialization certainly not overpriced. We're just getting started on the space manufacturing boom. Give us the latest. What's the latest in VA news? What's the latest in space?

>> You guys, you guys know I only come on when it's gongw worthy. So, today is the first flight. [laughter] >> The first flight of weed. >> We don't know what's happening, but we're excited. >> Some money. >> Awesome. Awesome. I love the energy. Love the hype. This is great, guys. Um, no. So, uh, I come to you because today is the first flight of multiple commercial reality history. >> I can't hear you.

>> I can't hear you. [laughter] >> I can't hear you over the sound of this gong. I have no idea what's happening. >> Too much success. I love it. [laughter] Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. >> So, I come bringing news of uh series D. You might have saw that in the news this week. Um, currently >> Oh, baby. Mark. I need him. >> He's going to break the gong. [laughter] >> I appreciate it. I appreciate it. >> We'll lock in. We'll lock in. Okay.

[laughter] Sorry. I just get excited. >> I know it's a lot to get over. You know, we want five bathroom houses, you know, now we're on re-entry vehicles. I don't know how you guys do the context switch. >> I get it. I get it. Yeah, it's all >> uh All right. Why is it important? Why does it matter? >> So, it matters because we are now in a fleet mentality, which means that we can manufacture at scale. We've done proof of concepts. We've been we've begun scaling over the last couple of years. We've flown six of these vehicles. Uh today is eight and nine at the same time, which just means that um you know, we have the ability in the infrastructure to do a fleet rather than just oneoff missions, which means uh significant unlock for microgravity manufacturing.

>> Well, how did that actually play out in the factory? Like I remember touring the factory and seeing like it it felt like an assembly line but maybe like one capsule at one vehicle at a time. Are you just uh parallelizing and you have like multiple pods coming together piece by piece or is there machinery involved now? Like what did it actually take to go to you know this higher velocity? >> Yeah, the assembly line is higher velocity for sure. The mission control is now parallel. launch ops are now parallel. We have vehicles at the Cape and Vandenberg, multiple vehicles on a rocket. Um, all the ground systems, a lot of it's digital and in software where we have to be able to handle data from multiple vehicles at the same time.

They fly over a ground station, how do you tell them apart? How do you do mission ops with multiple vehicles? So, this has obviously been done before in constellations, but never for re-entry vehicles, you know? Um, and so like if you think about Starlink or other constellations, hundreds, sometimes thousands of satellites. Um, we are now able to do that not just with satellites but with re-entry vehicles, which has never been done before today, which is kind of a weird thing to say. >> Yeah, I read some article about um like space launch capacity being extremely tight as a market. Jordy was even pitching like buying future capacity and reselling it, trying to arbitrage something. But how much does that go into your fundraising plans? your it's effectively your supply chain like you're going to need to buy launch capacity years out. Uh how real is the crunch? Are you I mean we just saw Starship come back and be successful. So it feels like there might be a big unlock. Are we in a temporary period of a tight market or is it just going to be tighter and tighter and this is going to be core competency for you forever?

>> Yeah, I think it'll come in waves like any other market in this situation. We got lucky because we have we booked our flights. We took it, we also had that arbitrage idea. So we booked flights all the way out through 2029. So we have seven already on contract for next year, 10 the year after that and so on and so forth. So um you know as one launch vehicle winds down like Falcon 9 and Starship winds back up to a microgravity manufacturing company. Uh we treat launch like shipping and so you know a lot of business not a lot of business models are you talking to someone like oh FedEx has a new truck. What do you think? You know it doesn't it kind of is below the layer of abstraction for us.

So as long as our uh we have access to space and uh the cogs meet um the value that we're generating, it's it's a GNA there. >> So I I think everyone's acutely aware of like how much space is booming. The best representation is just like SpaceX is $2 trillion company IPOed the price held. Like it's it's so real in everyone's face. I'm more interested in your view on what's happening in bio and the pharmaceutical industry because it feels like GLP1s are really exciting but there's also this sort of undercurrent of you know progress at anthropic around the future of AI that we've talked to a ton of AI for bio companies that are doing molecule design drug design uh there's a lot of energy there that feels like it's going to get unlocked how much how important is that trend to your business. What are what's real there?

What are you actually excited about and then what are the timelines around that? >> So, I'm I'm definitely excited about um AI's contribution to life sciences and the biotech industry at large. It's a force multiplier. It's also a great pairing with a company like Varta where the aspect that we're offering is a lowgravity environment to create chemical outcomes that you otherwise wouldn't be able to do on Earth period. So even if you know even if you can uh or if AI does unlock the answer if you will to do something you still have to go to space to get to microgravity you cannot physically rep uh replicate microgravity or lower gravity on earth that's Einstein's principle of equivalence and so I'm I'm super excited about this especially with respect to monoconal antibodies and informing us which drugs make the most sense to crystallize in microgravity. So in the same way that this is acting as kind of a tide raises all boats in the biotech industry that's also true for VTA of course and the lucky aspect for us is that that gravity knob is something we have a monopoly on right now.

>> Yeah. So sorry >> monopoly on gravity. Let's [laughter] go. Let's give it up for that. Um I I wanted I wanted to get um like how should um space enthusiasts um update their timelines after the last Starship launch and and the success of >> a mark a mark to market for enthusiasm. Uh uh I would say pretty excited. Let's see. So, you know, sometimes I I like to think back about like, okay, when was Falcon 9 at this level of maturity? And of course, you can account for all the synergies that SpaceX and compounding interest of learnings that they've had since then. Um, going to orbit and landing. Um, you know, this one technically landed in the ocean, but it was, you know, from a physics perspective, essentially the same thing as like let's say flight 21. So, you're kind of in the 2015 time frame, if you will, in Falcon 9 years. um if you want to mark to market that way. From an enthusiasm factor, I mean, I don't know, you you saw those videos, they were awesome. Uh it's hard to not be enthusiastic about uh the space industry after you see a skyscraper uh spitting

out data centers into orbit. That's pretty effing cool. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh is there a risk factor to you that data centers crowd out uh or or kind of, you know, like just drive up the price of launch? Because when it feels like the first Varta model was probably predicated just on communication. Now there's this new entrant. How do you play nice with that? Is there actually a benefit to the launch market broadly as it becomes more competitive to having some diversity of revenue? How do you think about the long-term interaction between you and the the space data center market?

>> Yeah, I don't think it's too different than any other infrastructure buildout in history. And what I mean by that is um you know locomotives hey the killer app there was moving oil around or moving steel around. Um but you know there's no reason not to scale up. We already have the operational leverage um from having that infrastructure exist. And once you show that the unit economics for any application whether it be microgravity manufacturing or yeah or data centers or anything else of that nature um there's really no reason not to take advantage of the rails that are already laid. Um and so I don't uh you know there might be some high frequency noise in there but other than that the free market has shown that uh launch access to space there's a lot of application layers on top of that data center starlink etc pharmaceuticals um and so uh the word is out that money is to be made off our home planet unfortunately and so uh or fortunately I should say and so therefore um uh uh uh investment uh will go there to bridge the gap between uh known value and realized value.

>> Oh yeah, there's the uh this is is this from the Starship launch? This one. Um take me through >> this one is ours right here. This is uh this one is ours going up right now. Um we're about to see main engine cut off of the second stage and that's when uh both of our re-entry vehicles will deploy from the rocket. >> Wow. Uh take me through re-entry specifically. It feels like that is the place where you've always been the pioneer, the leader, the most aggressive, advanced, pushing the envelope of like what the system was designed to handle. Uh there were setbacks in the past, delays, there were landings in other countries. Um what is the current strategy? Have you found an equilibrium for how to bring something back reliably? Where's the right place to land? Uh how has the how's the the actual re-entry process evolved?

>> Uh let's see. So we're this will be eight this vehicle eight and nine. Um so we've flown six before. Uh five of them we landed in Australia at our landing site with our partner Southern Launch. One of them we landed in Utah with our partner the Utah test and training range. Uh it's kind of um rinse and repeat now. Uh, we have an FAA operator's license, which means that if we're not doing dramatic changes to the operation Oh, here we go, baby. Sonic boom. Um, [laughter] >> this is amazing. >> Uh, moment of silence for uh for breaking the sound barrier. It never gets old, dude. It never ever gets old.

Um, no, but I back to the question of of [laughter] re-entry. >> Asking serious questions, >> dude. You should be You should be You should be a streamer. I think I think a lot of people would watch would watch you just like react. >> That's [laughter] crazy. Let's get some W's in the chat for the sound barrier. >> Another one. [laughter] >> So good. >> Oh my god. Um, no, but I mean like you know the it's it's been proven, you know. I mean we've done it now multiple times. So it's really exciting. Yeah. >> So does uh uh so it sounds like Australia is not going to have a monopoly on landing these things.

There's going to be a different uh places. Uh is there is there any uh possibility of landing in the ocean for you? Uh is that like did you cross that off as like not viable? Because it seems very logical. It's like the biggest possible target. It's international waters, but at the same time like you got to catch it and not let it sink. But what was the actual thinking between like like why we haven't heard like oh yeah VA just la just lands in the uh in the ocean every time. Uh yeah, so we land on land because it's why put a boat in the assembly line is really what it comes down to. From a unit economics perspective, it's just cheaper to land on land. The reason why re-entry in the past has been done in the water is just to absorb the shock load for astronauts.

Uh but since we don't have astronauts on board, we're moving in objects. These are just drug molecules. I mean, you can drop a pill bottle on the ground and nobody dies. So let's drop a pill bottle on the ground because it's cheaper than dropping one in the ocean. It's really just as simple as that. >> Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. >> Very cool. Uh, Jordy, anything else? >> Uh, no. I mean, I'd like to see you drop something in the ocean to create some waves. >> Well, I wanted to I wanted to land one in the Taiwan Strait just to prove a point of what could be possible with the technology, you know, but uh, you know, I don't know if the State Department would have any Oh, by the way, I see you put 251 million series D there. Yeah, it is. Um, I I I said it should we should just say 250, make it simple, but you know, Delian wanted to get that plus one in there. So, you can give him some next time.

>> Okay, someone snuck in at the last second. [laughter] Got room for one. >> Who got that last allocation? I thought we capped it. >> Well, congratulations and thanks so much for coming on the show, >> dude. Great to see you. Amazing progress. It's it's it's like our favorite part of the job is just seeing the progression across, you know, different different appearances and you guys are just um you know, it's amazing. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. >> Awesome. Well, I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to seeing you guys in person soon. >> Have a good one. Goodbye. Let me tell you about public investing for those who take it seriously. They got stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries, and more with great customer service. Our next guest is the chairman, president, and CEO of EcoAB, Christopher Back is coming in to the TVPN Ultra Dome. How are you doing? Welcome to the show.

>> Hey, good to see you guys. >> Good to see you, too. Thank you so much for joining >> here. This is good. It's not even Friday. >> I know. I don't know if you caught much of the last uh interview, but we're certainly acting like it's Friday. We're we're certainly act we're certain certainly acting like it's Friday. >> Yeah, >> it's Friday somewhere. [laughter] >> Every day is Friday. My god. Spending time in Korea the other day. They were talking on Saturday. It's the second Friday. Sunday it's the third Friday. So it never stops. >> Yeah.

>> But uh first time on the show. would love for you to uh uh give us a little introduction on yourself and the company just to kind of set the table for the discussion. >> Okay. Well, uh let me talk about the company first, which is way more important than just me. Uh we're the world's water uh and infection prevention company. So, we solving big problems like uh water scarcity, small thing. Um making sure that we have enough water so to survive uh and to grow uh for for the years to come. Making sure that food is safe. uh around the world not an obvious thing unfortunately when we look at what happened with Leuse um lately as well and today so looking at how do we make sure that AI infrastructure um which means micro electronics manufacturing power generation and cooling in data centers so he's made in ways that are well good for people good for the environment big topic right now so that's where I'm spending most of my time uh was born in Switzerland and I've been living 10 different countries so I

don't exactly know where home is, but that's where I am right now. >> Great. Uh I there I mean water is a huge topic. We can go all over the place, but I'd love to know more concretely. Um uh what what what products services are actually relevant to uh the the world of modern data centers. Uh we've heard about closed loop systems, there's filtration systems, there's a lot of different things that go on. How do you fit in when we're thinking about a new power shell coming online, a bunch of water cooled GPUs going in that building? Uh where when are you meeting the builder? How are you interfacing with them? What products and services are they using?

>> Well, things have changed quite a bit uh as you guys know. So for a very long time it was uh air conditioning HVAC um the cool air in a in a in another room and um that's what we were doing uh basically so was making sure that the whole cooling system cooling towers control equipment remote monitoring everything was doing well in order so to keep the um the data centers so running that's changed the last two years in dramatic ways uh with Blackwell with Vera Robin and all the new things that are coming up well on one hand um you can't cool them with a track anymore. Uh it has to be directly cheap cooling and second um if you don't do it differently it's using a lot of water and that's a that's a big deal. So what we've done is basically to invent technologies that are in a enclosed loop which is what we've done in most industries as well and to say well you can have the combination of um getting a coolant directly on every GPU anywhere in any

rack um in the data center uh to get into a CDU a coolant distribution unit. Um we have coolant as well uh that are remote monitored so we can trace basically the quality of the coolant. Is it cooling as it should? Is it any risk as well? So to lose any uh cooling capacity as well. And the really cool news is that well you don't need any incremental water for it. It's a closed circuit. You don't need incremental water. They don't have impact for the communities around. And the other good news is that ultimately you need less power to do it. So which means more power to compute.

>> Yeah. of course. Um I'm interested in how you have been setting the company up to thrive in an era of uh the the the the gigawatt compute campus era. I don't know what else to call it, but it feels like we're seeing projects in in Abalene uh huge campuses of buildings and and buildings and buildings that go on for miles. And I'm wondering is it enough to just uh vertically or or horizontally duplicate your current solution set or are you actually uh at a place where you need to uh build new systems that can handle the bigger buildings and the bigger networking fabric that's happening at these campuses. Uh what has your solution been as the as the actual campuses have gotten bigger?

Well, things evolve very quickly because the demand uh evolves quickly. The the way uh chips are being produced evolves uh as well. So, we're trying to stay ahead um of it. We had the last few days. So, we're talking about innovation with our team as well and saying okay now the the next move is this direct to cheap cooling um which is 3% um of the data centers and uh water neutral data center in the country. We have three um that are like that. So it's very early um on that journey but at the same time um as you're mentioning with the the gigawa type of data center we know that directed ship um is right for the near future um whatever that means 1 2 3 years and needs to think afterwards what is it going to be so we're thinking about dual phase it's basically an evaporation so of the liquid so close to the the GPU but it's thinking as well so laser systems uh for instance to to remove the heat um from uh from computers within um the racks that's a

little bit more for the future. So we never stop but for now it's really so scaling um the the direct to cheap cooling but the the most important in a way right now when I think about the next few months you know even for that so we're using kind of um a a coolant which has some chemistry in it in order not having fouling and all the crazy stuff that you might have in your car for instance. And we're thinking, well, um, if we were to use nature, just water, you have 17% more cooling power, um, of it, but you get the fouling, you get scaling, you get the corrosion and all the stuff coming with water. So, it's trying to find ways to get closer to 99% water, then to get to second phase, then to get to maybe light laser.

Um, that's the way we're thinking about it. That's data center. But what's important to keep in mind as well, well, you need to power those chips as well. That's electricity generation. That's the second user of water in the country after agriculture and need to produce the chips which is where we active as well. >> Sure. Sure. Yeah. Um what uh how have you grappled with the the the AI bottlenecks the bottlenecks to the buildout? You uh sometimes it's good to be a bottleneck because that means the stock's going through the roof as demand. You can just raise prices so much at the same time you want to keep your customers happy. You want to keep the supply chain flowing. What have you had to grapple with on the supply chain on your supply chain side to make sure that when you get the call you can deliver your products on time on budget uh within the expectations and to the quality that the buyer demands?

>> Well, it's the number one problem if we look at the two political parties today. So, they don't agree on much but on that they agree um that they don't like data centers uh which is a problem for everything that uh we're talking uh about here. When you think about it, um, well, investments go through the roof, you know that, but 60% of the projects are being either, uh, paused or delayed. Well, that's a problem. So, on one hand, so you have huge demand and on the other hand, so you have huge slowdown uh, politically for the for the most part.

And it's really unfortunate what's happening here because in our country right now, so there is this way of talking about technology and AI in negative ways. It's going to kill all of us. It's going to eliminate all the jobs. It's going to be impacting our power bills. I mean, all the stuff that are really dramatic, which is really unfortunate, but that's where it's going. And at the same time, locally, in a community, in a village, in a city, nobody wants to have a data center. So, what's happening in our country right now? So, we think that um speaking louder uh will solve the problem. Well, that makes it just worse because the whole negativity uh is getting more prominent which is a problem. What we do and we've done that in many industries is basically so to get much closer to the community. It's to go to a city council. It's to call uh the neighbors.

It's to be with the local politicians, the NOS's, all the people who really hates what's being done and to listen to them and to share with them. Okay. Do you realize that we can have a data center that is going to use no water, which means less than a car wash um in your own village there? Your power bill might go down because you have the same infrastructure and you use more power through the same infrastructure. Okay, you don't need to be a genius to understand. So all the cost is going to go down as well. And that's how we making some progress. And one example is Minnesota and Texas. We've been working with the two states. I took those two because they're kind of extreme, most liberal, most conservative. Um, one way to simplify it. And interestingly enough, Minnesota hasn't um gotten to a pause while ex uh went. So, in a way, I think we're finding ways, but he talk.

>> Have you been have you been um [clears throat] surprised that the a the sort of tech industry saw that data centers were unpopular and decided to start calling them AI factories? Because [laughter] I'm sure you work with like thousands of factories with actual factories >> globally that are actually producing, you know, waste water. >> You might have a smoke stack or something. They're not the most aesthetic things. I would think you want to not go towards that. >> It's the last thing you want to be. Yes. [laughter] >> Thank you. >> Oh my god. U Yeah. Well, I don't think it's the right thing. Uh, and it's going both sides are going so kind of against each other in crazy ways and thinking, well, if I spend more money so against you, um, I'm going to convince you that you're wrong and that you're going to say yes to my stuff. Uh, that's where we are right now. That's the exact wrong way. And we're talking with the hyperscalers, the collocators as well into say calm down. uh get closer to the folks uh in your communities, the

schools, the churches, the NOS's, the communities. Um they're good people. They're like us. They're Americans. They want to have a good life um in front of them. Speak less loud, try to listen, come with solutions. Technology is going to help all the things there. And for whatever reason, we stuck spent two weeks in China uh a week ago. Well, 90% love it. >> Yeah. Well, that's exactly what the Chinese want us to slow down. Um, you say, "Well, are we doing the right thing here?" Well, maybe not.

>> No, I completely agree. Um, tell me about some of the other product lines. And I'm I'm I don't know if you have a a a strong thesis on this, but I'm very interested in desalination. I remember um I I remember Blake Masters during one of his campaign runs talking about the future of California should be nuclearpowered desalination because that would allow the Colorado River to flow back to Nevada and Arizona and sort of create this lush inland area. And I was like from a tech from a technology perspective it sounded uh doable on a long enough timeline but uh I haven't we we talk to CEOs all the time. Uh, we haven't talked to that many people that are like, I'm going to be the one who's doing the mega project on desalination.

We've talked to plenty of people that want to do that nuclear. Um, what what is your view on desalination? >> Well, it sounds great because obviously we're surrounded by water, especially when you're in California. Um, we don't have that problem in Minnesota where I'm living. Uh, it's kind of far away from um from the sea. But dalination is not um the solution for the future. It requires a lot of power. um to get it done it needs to be close to the sea obviously otherwise you don't get much um salt water um that creates geopolitical issues as well look at what's happening with the the big oil pipeline in Saudi that got destroyed by the hoodies as well that's creating a big issue in the country if it's water which is the case in Saudi by the way you have another problem because you can cut the water access as well so to big cities there's a much simpler solution which is to do what nature has always done The concept of wastewater is just a wrong concept. It's an engineering for an engineer like me. I'm an aerospace

engineer. This is just a flaw. Nature has never done it that way. Um it's always in a circular way. It's in a lake. It evaporates. It goes to the clouds. It goes down. It gets filtered. You get use it and all that. Whether we like it or not. Well, the water that we're drinking today, well, has been through a human um a [laughter] few hundred tier. Don't overthink it. it >> just keep recycling. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. >> Keep recycling, you know, with the the the the fabs. Uh we have that discussion in uh in Taiwan, in Korea, here in the country. We have this art of putting those fabs in places where there's absolutely no water. Well, you need ultra pure water for a fab. You're familiar with it. It's a million times more pure than the water you put in your own body in an injection. Um well that's hard uh to recycle to make sure that you get to the highest standard. We've developed those technologies at ultra pure water level. Well guess what um you recycle the water you get higher purity

water which means that you can get lower than the 2 nanometers and you get a higher yield as well. So from 50 60% to 80 85%. This is billions. Why wouldn't we do that? You don't need a diesel plant to do that. >> Okay. Okay. real rock. >> Decelerate the desalination. He's a del. That's what he is. I'll agree. Disagree. I'm still optimistic, but I you make a lot of good points. >> Last uh question. I know I know we're over. Um in many of from from my understanding in many of the areas where there are proposed data center uh developments, the actual water infrastructure in those areas is is terrible. and that the local water utilities >> are like actually wasting water as in there's like leaks because the infrastructure is old. They're underbilling for water because they don't actually have good systems >> to to sort of understand flow. Um is

there not an opportunity for the tech industry to go and say to these local communities, hey, our data centers are very water efficient already. We're going to make a closed loop system. It's going to be use less water than a car wash. And you're also, we know that you're wasting a ton of water by having, you know, leaks and and under billing and all these different things. Why don't we invest a relatively more modest amount to actually just like upgrade the local water utility infrastructure in these areas that just don't have a lot of funding. Again, I've I've heard a lot of this through the grapevine, but it feels like you could come in and say, "Hey, we're going to give you $20 million to like upgrade your local utility to to remove waste and and help find leaks, etc., and then we're going to put this thing in that is going to use a little bit of water, but the the delta will be significant."

>> So, just to be clear, it uses zero uh water. So, we're working with some companies, not to be named. Um there's not so many obviously are thinking about data centers in space. Um those data [laughter] centers in space are are not connected to a garden hose obviously. So to get the water so it's 100% closed loop. So you need no water. You bring it once and it works forever. But the point you're making of saying supporting the communities that's a good idea but that has nothing to do with the data centers or providing water. uh to it because you need zero like 0.0 and that's important to keep in mind.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I know but but it's just like for me there's like outrage around data center water usage and no outrage around just poor utilities, poor water infrastructure in these local often rural communities where no one for years has come in and said they just don't have the budget to invest. Right. And tech companies >> this is a great idea. >> Yes. And that's back to the point I was making before. It's to to get closer to the local communities. Uh it's not to spend billions on communication. It's to be closer to those guys. I mean, it's people like us. They want to have kind of a good community, good schools, live uh in great places, not having their water being wasted and all that. Yes, we should help and we have to.

>> Love it. >> Thank you so much. >> Well, I think we I think I think we solved it. We did it. >> We did it. >> Thank you so much for coming on the show. Uh, great great to meet you. Let's let's do it again soon. >> Yeah, we got to do it again soon. >> Great to see you guys. We'll talk to you soon. >> Goodbye. >> I got a pitch for you, Jordy. You know how he mentioned the ultra pure water that's used in semiconductor fabs. >> Yes. >> I think you got to daily drive that. >> I think so, too. >> 100 bucks a gallon. >> Actually, [laughter] actually, no. >> No. >> You You want the mineral content.

>> Oh, you want the mineral content. Okay. >> You want the mineral content. Okay, folks. >> Well, then it's out. It's out. But you know who's in Figma agents? Meet the canvas. Your AI agents can now create and modify your Figma files with design system context. And you know who else is in the New York Stock Exchange. Want to change the world? Raise Capital at the New York Stock Exchange. Our next guest will probably be there shortly. We got Hassan Raza, co-founder and CEO of Tavis here with us for the first time on TVPN.

Welcome to the show. How you doing? >> Hey, good. It's so nice to meet you all. Excited to be on here. Thank you. Beautiful office. What is the car behind you? Is that a Corvette? >> That is It's a 85 Corvette. It's part of the uh history museum. I spent the last couple years restoring it. But we got a lot of vintage computers out here. If you've seen bad, they said it was one of the most powerful computers of the time. So, it's uh it's a lot of fun. >> I love it. I love it. >> Very cool. >> Uh tell us about what you're building. Tell us about Griffin. >> Yeah, I mean so I mean Tabus in a nutshell. We're a research lab focused on human computing. So, we want to deliver a feature where using a machine will feel like talking to a friend or co-orker. Yep.

>> And today we released our biggest breakthrough model yet. It's called Griffin. Um, it's a human interaction model. Um, and it's the first model to pass a touring test. Um, >> did it actually pass? I'm looking at the data. 48% of testers, 26 out of 54 believed Griffin was a real person. >> That feels like you barely didn't pass. >> Well, to be clear, before the the next best model had less than a 2% pass rate. >> I'm not saying it's not amazing. I'm not saying it's not the best. It's not I'm not saying it's not.

>> What I'm saying is job's not finished. >> I'm saying job's not finished. [laughter] >> Oh, 100%. Well, there's also there's also when when you're getting asked, do you think this is an AI video? Like you're also like playing It's like playing rock paper. You might want to do some You might you might you might have an instinct to do something, but you know you're being tested. >> Yeah. So, you're going to look for Yeah. You're going to kind of cheat. You're like looking for the details in the background, little aberations. Okay, >> we we did we did do like a human baseline as well and so like we did that so that people who might have been like oh I'm being tricked and like you know 15% of them thought that the real human was AI and so we used all this in the study and so this is like a we have a lot of work to do. Um >> wait, which one is the AI here?

>> It is the one the one who's talking the uh the ginger lady. >> You you are AI right now. Is that I'm also [laughter] Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah, cuz I because I was watching this and I thought the guy with the Rubik's cube was AI. [laughter] So So you got you fooled me. >> Yeah, >> you did it. >> Um All right. So what what um how are you going to make money? >> How you making money on this? >> We're commercial guys. >> I can imagine so many so many things. But who's the uh what's the beach head market? >> Yeah. I mean essentially like we use these models to power what we call like pals, right? Which is like AI employees, AI co-workers, AI companions. And so people are building ASR like on Salesforce up they have a that's powered by Tabis um continued medical education AI tutors like AI healthcare workers like all these things where like you would normally need a human like you need their EQ need their trust you know you need to be able to see like not enough of them and like that those are the markets that we're going after and that are already using our model today.

Okay. So, is this is this a bet? Because there's been various attempts at making these kind of like live interactive video models that have, you know, frontier near frontier intelligence. But often times, like if you're doing, you know, I've I've seen people complaining or even film like there's in viral Instagram videos where they're filming themselves doing like a like a screening call for for a company and it's like, "Hello, how are you today?" you know, and it's like it's it's very And so is is the bet here that like once the models are just way better, there will be like exponentially more demand and consumers will stop being frustrated by them.

>> Exactly that, right? Like the thing is that essentially like the closer that we get to passing the touring test, the more people they they know it's AI cuz it's disclosed, but they just don't care cuz it's like the most natural thing you could do is like instead of like trying to figure out what to prompt the machine or like what button to click or like you're like waiting for it to respond, it just it just feels like just feels like you're talking to another human. So you don't even think about it. You know, it's AI. You don't even think about it at all. >> Walk me through how you're grappling with the various debates of how this technology gets rolled out, the potential downsides. I imagine you're not going open wait, but is there a process to uh to onboard a customer so that you know it's not literally just a scammer who's trying to get grandma to send a gift card or something?

>> Yeah. No. So, with Griffin, we're doing an early research preview. So, we only releasing it to select testers. Um, and it's exactly for that, right? It's it is the first model and by far the largest sort of leap ahead and passing touring test. We're like, we know we have to do more AI safety work. We want to do like proper disclosure work, make sure the the model always says that it's an AI and not a human. Y >> um and so we working through those uh safety or testing um and do like safe releases. Um so we're probably going to be releasing it over the next couple months. And then on the actual like you know jobs not finished like where this goes uh it feels like touring test passed on uh you know basic zoom call where do you want to what like what capabilities do you want to unlock next?

I I I can imagine like it's good nice to be able to talk to somebody and it looks like they're on a video but occasionally you'll want that person to like stand up and go get an object and show it to you. And I don't know if the model can do that yet. And there's like other things that happen in the course of a Zoom call. Where do you see this all going? >> Yeah. I mean I mean I think what's really special about this model is that it is actually capable doing a lot of these movements. Like it won't get up and walk away just yet. Though technically it's capable, but like it's a small things like it'll like shift around your chair. It can like it can do gestures. It can like touch its face because it feels nervous. Like all these things that humans would naturally do and it builds all this trust. But really where we're trying to go with this is like how do we make these more capable like how do we make them more capable employees, more capable assistants, more capable um sort of co-workers and then how do we make it so that the interface sort of disappears like you don't think about it and you're just asking it to do its work and it does it just goes and does it. So that's like intelligence and then there's like deterren naturalness.

>> Yeah, I can imagine uh virtual guitar tutor being a really hard benchmark. I think I think that's really good. So, one of my that actually one of my sort of use cases I want to unlock is like teaching me piano. Yeah. Because it can see it can already it has perception. So, it can see and people are already using it to do sorts of training. So, you can hold things up. You can people are like our team and others like they'll play chess with it and it's telling it's like play against them. >> So, those are all things you can do. Um but like piano and guitar definitely difficult because it can't tell difference between like different like it it doesn't know the difference between different keys and stuff yet but it'll get there. all these things will get there. And so being able to have like a personal tutor, personal trainer for every single person is like that's the dream.

>> Yeah. No, makes a ton of sense. >> Uh how how are you like am I right to assume that when if somebody's like talking to a pal like a virtual co-orker and then that pal is going to go off and like do work in the background. Let's say you have like let's jump on a quick call, talk about the thing we want to do and then the pal decides to go do work. Will that workflow be model agnostic? Because there are a bunch of specialized models and frontier models that you can use to just run in the background and you don't need to really focus there.

You need to focus on like the interaction collaboration. >> Exactly. Exactly. So like the way we like to talk about is like the oracle and the envoy. Like we're building the envoy model. Like its job is to just have really great conversation, understand and simulate human behavior. And then whenever it needs to do something that it can't do in conversation, it goes off to the big the big model in the sky and goes, "Hey, let's let's work together on this. Let's do this in the background." And so it can reach out to any tool, any model, and go do that work. Um rather than this model doing everything. Absolutely. >> Yeah. Well, congratulations on the progress. Very impressive stuff. And I'm sure you'll be back on the show soon.

>> Very cool. Have a great day. Great to meet you. Congrats on the progress. Drive uh do do some donuts in the in the Corvette next time you join in the lobby. Yeah. Yeah. There's like a fundraising milestone in the lobby would be great. >> Fantastic. >> Great to Great to hang. >> Have a good one. Goodbye. Let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market? Your business on MongoDB. Don't just build AI. Own the data platform that powers it. Let me also tell you about Codeex. Codex is a powerful workspace for getting work done with AI agents. Whether you're writing code, analyzing data, creating content, or automating business workflows, Codex helps you move projects forward from start to finish. And our next guest, Connor Renon, is the founder and CEO of Brody Rec Lee here with us on >> There he is. There's Brody.

>> What's going on, fellas? How are we? >> We're doing great. We're doing great. >> That outfit that's looking great. >> What is behind you? >> Dressed up for you guys. >> What is behind you? >> This is This is This is our world, guys. So, we're the largest basketball league in the world. We do 15 times more games than the NBA. >> And for And for us, uh, for those at home, what is basketball? >> Basketball? Uh, invented. >> That's the level. You're going to have to dumb it down. Wait, really? Is it actually invented in Canada? >> Yes, sir. >> Whoa. >> I always kind of felt I always I always was suspicious of that. I never knew the truth. Interesting. Um, okay. So, so saw this pitch um uh whenever we started talking about uh having you come on the show and uh John and I are not not big um traditional sports guys, but I've been thinking about this for years like this this kind of like league that's that's digitally native that's capturing all these different moments >> specifically because I think like like um bragging rights are like eternal, right? And so it's like it's fun to go

play pickup basketball or or shoot around a soccer ball, etc. But like actually being able to capture that and go out and and not just like compete uh compete to win in that moment, but to compete for eternal glory uh by, you know, getting the clip, you know, draining a three in in in front of your uh uh in front of your friends, etc. So, um, yeah, very, very excited about the vision, but but talk about where it's at today and where you want to take it. >> Yeah. So, I mean, it's funny like in 1970 when Nike started and Phil really started taking it off, when people would run, they would say, "Why are you training for the Olympics?" And if I went to an LA Fitness or a YMCA or a gym and I'm putting my shots up, I'm in the I'm in the lab super early, people are going to ask me, "Are you training for the NBA?" Like there's no reason why if you don't play pro that your sports dream and your your hoop dream deserves to just to die. And like I always say,

if you're 19, you're in the NBA, you're a rookie. If you're 19 and you're not on the NBA, you're washed and you're on Poly Market, betting your life away. So like [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. We uh we need we need a better >> Okay, but what but like break down the actual product. Like where is it today? You're doing 15 times you're 15 times bigger than the NBA already. [laughter] But but like what what is the experience today? >> So it's the pro experience like Brody is the pro experience for the everyday athlete. We took what you know about beer league, what you know about WCK League and we stripped it all away. So it's full uniform videos, photos, live stream, player clips, you get badges and earn rewards based off your play style.

Um it's the closest thing you can get to a pro experience without actually being in the pros. And essentially just that pathway you want to keep playing that sport you love. You don't have to hang it up. Like I think a lot of people don't play team sports and rec sports as they get older and they move to running or they move to high rocks or they move to >> marathons because the infrastructure to build team sports is it's it's tough. It's you got to you got to convince 10 dudes to show up. It's a lot easier to put on some running shoes and go and go play. But it doesn't mean that people don't want to play the game they love.

>> That makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so where where where is the line? I imagine that uh in order to get a team going, you still need someone with a lot of initiative, but what are you taking off their plate? I imagine you can take off scheduling the software piece, but uh those jerseys are >> But it's not just scheduling, it's like the the location. >> That's what I'm saying. Yeah. So, what what do you bring to bear? >> Video, etc. >> So, we make it as super easy. Like if you ever try to play team sports and you show up to a gym with the basketball, if you're not one of the best players, it's you're going to it's going to be hard for you to find that space on the court.

>> So everything we built from super early on was >> how do we make basketball truly the the most like accessible sport? So you show up to a gym, you go on the Brody app, we're going to find you a team, we're going to find you a captain, we're going to put you in that group chat, we're going to find the perfect skill level for you. So, we've made it easy to play team sports in a world where it's incredibly hard. And um it's like I said, everything from the the full 12week experience is all curated for you. So, we're building this world for the athlete to live forever who wants to play forever. We're taking and stripping away everything that's really about trying to organize basketball and as an adult and we're we're making it happen for them.

>> I imagine. >> What do you think your next sport will be? >> Surfing. >> So, we want to go really deep on basketball. Um, I think basketball's a like I I mean I was a hooper growing up and um I I actually played a lot of hockey, a lot of rugby. [snorts] >> Uh every venue we rent, we rent across 40 different locations today. >> Okay. >> They all have volleyball courts as well. >> Oh yeah. >> So we're building infrastructure for any sport. Right now it's just basketball. >> Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

>> David in the chat says, "What about orange slices? Do you guys supply orange [laughter] slices or is that on the players? >> That's on uh the players mom still. >> Okay. Stays with the mom. >> Um is what what what cities are are the best like player experiences right now. Like if somebody's watching and they and they want to they want to get involved. >> So we're in Toronto, New York, Chicago, Boston, Vancouver, and Calgary up in Canada as well. >> U those are our big ones >> sort of expanding downward. Uh and and monetization. I imagine that uh people are fine to pay like a league fee. Are you just uh charging players directly or is there a more complicated uh monetization scheme a foot?

>> It's it's super simple so far and that's sort of on by design. Like every sort of semi-pro league like you think like Drew League, even like Unrivaled, these like new challenger leagues, they all require so much capital, so much sponsorship investment upfront for those leagues to actually run. Yeah, >> ours is like 100% the athlete and the player. >> So our our model's super simple. It's a 12week season. >> The player fee is paid and that's all we do. >> I think we're sort of laying up though this world that we've built into apparel, into sponsorships, into partnership deals, into bigger events like a marathon, like a Hyrox event. Um but right now it's just weekly super simple and I think that's the exciting part about what we got going on too.

>> Yeah. No, no, makes >> Well, let's hit the gong. >> Yeah, let's do Um, I I think I think at least a couple guys on the team should uh just got to join the league. And I think we're putting Tyler Tyler, you're going to the league. >> You're going to the league. >> You're going to the league. >> Um, no, but I'm I'm like genuinely like this is a really, really, really cool idea, right? >> Also just a white pill company, you know? Yeah. Yeah. People getting together, having fun. >> Um, and yeah, I'm so I'm so glad you're building it. I do I do hope that you expand it into surfing. It's fine. Uh that's just a that's a that's a you can do that in like 10 years >> racing racing.

>> No, but the beauty so the beauty of motorsports is like >> like drivers today even if they're like total amateurs effectively get this like prolevel experience that you're getting because they work with a team. There are there is videos and photos and there's organizers and like it's all like sanctioned in different ways and there's and so >> yeah I think like part of what people love about motorsports as adults is you get that experience even if you're not even if you're again nowhere near a pro level you get to feel like you're a pro in many ways and it's funny that that hasn't come to these other games that are more accessible that are more popular uh that are played all over the world and uh yeah I can imagine the Brody the Brody world championship.

>> So they call when it's not professional, it's professional style recreational basketball. Do you think they should call it gentleman's basketball? Like gentleman drivers in racing? >> That might be the might be the next thing. >> Maybe maybe that's like the the senior class in 60 and up. The real the real the real ball knowers. >> Yeah, for sure. The real >> um awesome. >> Congratulations. >> Yeah, really really cool business coming on the show >> and great to meet you. We'll talk to you soon. >> Thanks, guys. >> Goodbye. >> Uh let me tell you about railway. Railway is the all-in-one intelligent cloud provider. Use your favorite agents to deploy web app servers, databases, and more while Railway automatically took scale of scaling, monitoring, and security. There are we there's some drama, Jordy. We got to we got to talk about the drama. But Pop-Tarts has ended their buzzs partnership. This is huge.

But on the other side of things, there's more collabs happening because uh Mr. Fastables partnered with Liquid Death peanut butter cup soda flavored sparkling water. So, >> okay. So, we kind of we kind of ended up like net neut. We're net neutral. >> Yes. Yes. It's reincarnated in some ways. >> It never really It never really died. >> This has been reincarnated as the Mr. Beastable Mr. Beast Festivals liquid death peanut butter cup soda flavored sparkling water.

That is a long name for a product. Do you think this is going to fly off shelves? The Mr. Beast Fastables liquid death peanut butter cup soda flavored drinking water. Sparkling water. >> It looks like a nightmare. >> Uh, peanut butter cup water is a crazy move, right? >> Yeah. >> But maybe that's untapped. >> But maybe we're living in a crazy world now. >> Maybe it's the next coconut water. No one was drinking coconut water back when, you know, before before it came to America. I don't know. Maybe peanut butter cup water is the next thing. Uh, >> Tyler, this is this has got you written all over it.

>> Chug it up. >> Chug it up. >> Friday challenge. Drink a six-pack of peanut butter cup water. >> Would you rather drink the Mr. Beast Festivals liquid death peanut butter cup flavor soda flavored sparkling water or the Pop-Tarts buzz frosted s'mores? >> We love Buzz. Leave us five stars at Apple Podcast. See you tomorrow. [laughter]