Why A 25-Year-Old Should Build A Hotel, Not An App | MakeMyTrip x Taj | WTF is Travel? — Transcript

So, this episode was bit of an experiment for all of us. We wanted to switch things up, but without messing the flow that you're used to. >> Usually, when a term or stat comes up in the episode, we break it down within the episode. This time, we thought, why not just go find the stat instead? >> So, we sat down with a few founders in the travel space right now. Got them talking about what worked, what didn't, what they would do differently. So we have kind of woven bits and pieces of it. >> So you guys have real context instead of just explaining things to you.

>> But if you want to dig deeper, get more insight on the data, the timestamps, the references, whatnot, all of it is going to be attached in a document below. >> So yeah, new format, new experiment. >> Uh we hope you guys like it and let us know if you do. >> It's okay if you don't also. It's fine. We don't need to know. It's okay. Mhm. >> We have like three questions left.

>> Yeah. >> Okay. So, I'm just going to ask you like random questions to just break the ice so that you feel more comfortable and then we'll get into it. >> Sorry, I was looking there. >> Can't wait. I'm very curious. >> So, how would people describe you? Good question. >> I think maybe a simple honest man, >> passionate, perseverant, never ever give up.

>> And how long have you been in this industry? >> In this travel and tourism industry, about 26 years. >> 45 years, including hotel school. >> If someone who's in their 20s and 30s, where would you tell them to travel? >> Travel wherever your heart and your wallet takes you, but don't stop traveling. >> Wow.

Let's start with your stories. >> Very good. >> And would you do it again? >> Oh, for sure. >> In terms of travel. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm >> super excited about doing this every day. >> Travel is so liberating. Um, I think we've only scratched the surface >> for a youngster, for a 25year-old because he doesn't have the capital required to build an asset. Maybe a asset like hotel brand can be built on the back of content.

How far is Punit? So I want to see if we can actually we are starting early. He's coming on time only. >> Yeah. Yeah, he's coming on time. He He said 2:30. >> Yeah, >> they gone down to get him. Are you friends with him already? >> No. With Punit? Yeah, >> of course. Of course. His partner. No. >> He He's one of our uh top hotel partners. Yeah. Yeah. I know him. Punit. Punit came from Germany >> to take this job.

>> From Germany. >> Huh? He was in Frankfurt. >> What was he doing there? >> He was working >> working there. He'll tell you more about it. But um um ever since he's come on board. We've been working together. We work with every hotel partner. No, right now thanks to our model. But uh even during co the the partnership became very strong because he was also very he's also one of those who wants to do not necessarily for only ICL but also for the industry.

So just you know coming together and trying to do more for the industry all the time he's part of every association and stuff like that. So that way pretty close partner actually. >> Now these guys all the hotel what's happening with ou? >> Yeah to pivot >> but pivot is working. >> Pivot is working at least on the face of it when you look at the numbers it is working. >> What percentage of your business is India bookings versus outside.

>> So in bookings the Indians booking on our platform 95%. So the main market is India only. There you go. Hi. Hello. Hi. Nik. How's your day? >> For those who don't know you, you state your name, role, and the company. >> Hi, my name is Sadhart Gupta. I'm the co-founder and CEO at Tribo Hospitality Ventures. >> Hi, my name is Amit Damani. I'm the co-founder of Stavista. Stavista is India's largest villa hospitality brand.

We manage over 1500 plus luxury villas across the country. >> So I am my name is Syia Chandra Shikaraya. Uh I am a co-founder of India Hikes. Uh India Hikes is India's largest trekking organization. >> My name is Bhavaka Bakshi. Um I am the co-founder of an invite only travel club called Betto Travels. >> You can take off your jacket if you like. I'm totally fine. You want to mic him first? Mic pen.

>> Yes, sir. >> Hotelers always dress so well. I can see your logo on your shirt and all that. >> Now, you can take a break whenever you want. >> Yeah, >> I know. It's a beautiful place. I've never been here before. >> I've never been here. I mean >> I look at the teris in the area itself >> pali hill >> only once in 8 years ago. >> Yeah. >> I've been here back in the days. My uncle used to live in Bandra.

>> One of these 15 16 street. >> I don't mind black coffee. I'll have >> black coffee. Give me also one. >> I'm looking for the place. >> Is it too noisy if you open this? Yeah, >> it's nice. Weather's good. >> You seem to have quite a name, huh?

>> Of course. >> Oh, I I'm sorry. I was not in the country. >> That's what I was just telling him. And he's waiting for you to tell him more. >> But >> I hope good, not bad. >> Very good. They say like >> it's a >> you did things on your own. U but it was not like >> like from day one you were cash positive or I mean like not like somebody >> what a story zero is. What a story. What a story because he must be playing on your platform.

He said it's a cycle. No. Good, bad, good, bad, good to mathematically maybe it's a bad thing. >> Sorry. He told me our CFO told me what Grow is doing now is inspired from what you have done >> and they followed them. >> Come on. And of course he had told me everything that you are the most famous Indian person who has I don't know done Elon Musk. were just chatting about it and I'm saying why don't you join so I sent him he said you know you tell me and all I sent him Elon Musk so he said please have a look and then you'll really grow and how do you know each other ecosystem >> yeah I do actually >> internet you must be using make I hope

so >> I've used it many times. I've stayed at Taj Hotels many times. I don't know who hasn't, but I have. >> Yeah. >> Let's start with your stories so we get a little context. So, we focus on everything a youngster needs to either start a business around his or your business or to find a job around your industries. So we look at trends, we look at patterns, we'll talk about what is growing at what pace, what industry will get disrupted where they can build early. So we largely focus on things like this.

Our audience is largely entrepreneurs or wannabe >> business and relaxed line. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh >> totally like it's not like a news show. You want to take a break. You want to do whatever we can do. Office. >> You have to go. We opened a small boutique place called Bandra House on Turner Road.

>> Are boutique places really working? >> They work. >> You think they have mad potential? They have mad potential. >> We just invested in a boutique hotel brand which is opening in uh Portugal, Dubai, Saudi. It's called Earth Hotels. >> Earth Hotels. >> Ah, na brand. It's in partnership with three Lebanese guys. It's us and them. We're opening five hotels in the next 18 months kind of thing. First one is almost open in Dubai. J1 experiential hotels >> 40 50 rooms hotel is 38 rooms >> but once you open say we open five hotels in the next 2 years won't it become like a large hotel anyway?

>> No. How do you retain the boutique nature of something? >> By not doing everything to get business. You just pick up good locations. So there has been a good boutique brand done by people of Indian origin now sold to Marott called Citizen M. >> Absolutely. >> Citizen M did a good job. >> Even 25 hours is >> 25 hours is very good. But they got very lucky with the start. So they started with Bikini Berlin >> with a monkey bar.

>> So that monkey bar became more famous because it's overlooking the zoo. It's not normal seating. You have all these like steps Indian style gas. So it did very well and then is nothing succeeds like success like mama shelterance. He actually modeled after this only citizen M and 25th R. M abs there you go I've stayed in citizen M is beautiful actually >> the concept the other good thing about experiential also is you can leverage technology quite a bit >> citizen m also does it no you know you don't have to you can bring in the touch and all but you can also do bring in better highquality experience which is powered by technology >> and it's easier for people who are non hotel so citizen m was started by a guy who sold sold Max to Liz Clearborn,

you know, for whatever 800 900 >> m >> million pounds or a billion pounds and then for his kids he thought he'll do something and he bought a yacht and this and that story >> very interesting but it's very powerful point by the way I just wanted to build on this that it is better built by nonutilia so sometimes If you have to do out of box thing, you don't have to get the same person from the industry >> right >> there. So much of baggage, legacy, etc.

I remember even in make my trip >> when we were setting it up, none of us knew travel. >> Not even one person except one co-founder who had some travel background. Starting with Deep, me, Sachin, Gayor, Cayur was the only one who had some background and our leadership team even looking for the next level of talent when we were scaling up. We were not looking from travel. We were not looking for travel because in any case we were techled business but um domain was not important >> we realized because then you get fresh perspective out of box thinking and stuff. All right.

>> Maybe so our audience get a little gets a little context of I don't know why I'm speaking more Hindi today. Maybe because you're from Delhi Bombay maybe after you. >> All right. Okay. So let's talk about it takes too much time to already pulling. So >> actually happened when we were on a panel together. Okay.

I don't think you found anyone in the morning. No, it's not right. No, it's not real. At least I didn't realize it was I thought a hotel will list on everything. Yeah. If you are on MMT, you won't be on booking. >> No, we are on all. >> Uh then how does it matter? >> It does matter because a lot of uh our offers are going through them. We have not done any special campaign with booking. >> So you're saying >> or with Expedia >> where you discount people will take from there.

>> No discount. whatever kind of deal we do and special one I >> I guess it's also a function of um market focus and the power of the brand right you know so let's say you know in comparison if you look at any brand in any category if you're looking at uh a particular online platform or brand which has built significant traffic and traction >> and the ROI spending or investing on that brand will be higher >> so to end up just doing it there relatively speaking I'm just very dispassionately speaking otherwise you're right the inventory will be there uh theoretically speaking everywhere >> and you go to Taj and crack these deals deals with >> it's actually much more than that so what happens in a closed partnership which Punit was alluding to is that both the respective teams actually almost thinking that this is our own channel they start to look at lot of the data and then based on that react right which

is like almost day-to-day engagement. So there will be a tiny group on that side. There will be a tiny group on our side working very closely hotel by hotel many examples. Now let's say new property we were just in the morning talking about uh new hotel that has come up in Frankfurt for example. So we were talking about how do we now get traction from ECMATIR for Frankfurt right for and we were talking about international traffic growing in in India and then you start to figure out because see we also on our platform and pretty much every e-commerce platform would have many properties that you would have built right just to to you know of course from the demand side you keep getting customers and from a brand perspective that you have more than one product offering to offer you you know, including the brand store, including the, you know, I guess maybe you were talking about sponsored listing versus non-sponsored listing, etc. Of course, all of that comes with investment, >> but it's like a very sort of close.

>> So, they give a deal on MMT. In return for that, you pay them money. >> No, we don't pay them money. No, that was half joking. >> Do you buy rooms and then resell? >> No, we don't. We don't. >> In airline tickets, that happens. No, they call it aggregation. I tell you where it happens. No, you can pre- buy during season and all in pockets. So let's say early days make my trip would buy for our packages business where you have to bundle it together, >> right? >> But large part of our business. So we have a packages unit where we would in season where there will be short inventory that you would end up sort of buying over time when you have reached the scale and size you don't actually have to upfront buy everything because of the >> is there a deal do your margins go up if you upfront buy >> they do they do they do >> significantly for tickets and hotels >> put money on the table both sides you're putting money on the table because there's risk right because then you carry that inventory >> then why not do because it's not sustainable because see

not necessarily so it also comes with carrying law inventory carrying headache right because at a scale it'll be very hard right >> for you to do it whatever if it doesn't happen right it's a classical inventory model even in the other categories versus allocation model and especially when you have reached a scale in size if you get soft blocks as we call it >> which means that I will have that commitment but I don't have to write 100% upfront check because I have delivered historically >> right then you don't have to block >> then I don't really have to block the >> and that's true for airline tickets and hotel rooms >> both both both any product any >> competition and what scale are they at >> so you know so when you look at India market so our competition so overall travel and tourism market distribution channels will be online which is like online travel agency model like ours and then they will be offline there will be tour operators there will corporate travel agencies, there will be traditional travel agents. You know,

theoretically, everybody is competition, right? Because everybody is sort of selling in the market. But in the online market, our competition will be online travel agencies. So, credit, booking.com, a good yatra. uh so let's say air market I think it'll be toss between earlier it used to be yatra but you know it keeps changing maybe clear trip yatra together bracketed but distinct like for our uh uh total market share for domestic air segments will be about 30%.

Um and they might be singledigit high singledigit right >> that kind of stuff and it's all fragmented then rest of it is really long tail >> whenever I book a hotel I have somehow come to terms with the fact that if I go to the hotel website directly I get the best deal how do you compete with that like if I go to Taj website that particular >> you only get Taj when you go to their website you get all possible choices >> but I can go to their website look at which hotel then go to the hotel website directly and book.

>> Yeah. >> Usually there is rate parity. It's not that we have cheaper but you know the best deals are available on the hotel website. >> They are right. >> So you are smart others are not >> rate parity came up on the show and the admission was that the best deals sit on the hotel's own website not the aggregators. You are on both sides of it. stayista.com and also listed on the big platforms. What share of your nights come through someone else's app and what does the guest cost you compared to the ones you directly book?

>> Yeah, so Staa is a hospitality brand. We have exclusive rights over the property. So all sales are routed through us. We are responsible for distributing it across all platforms. Whether it's Tista's website or whether it's through our contact center, whether it's through our social media or whether it's through partners like OTAAS such as Airbnb, Booking.com, Make My Trip and even offline travel agents who play a critical role uh in this entire distribution network. So all of these channels are something that we look at maximizing our returns through. We try to give the best rates across all platforms. So the rates will pretty much be the same across all platforms. At the end of the day as I shared experience is what wins a guest. So if we are able to build that relationship with that guest just like a offline travel agent might be then they stick with us and they keep booking with us.

>> I think I'll tell you what happens maybe just building on that right. So what happens? You're right. >> There will be section of people who would want to do it. We used to call it shopping. It happens again in every online category that you will in the browser world there used to be it was easy for you to flip from one browser to the second and a third browser in the app world >> because if you're on one browser the history you guys get to see >> yes right to the wider selection to punish each point right because and not only that >> is that still the case like if I'm on Chrome and I'm scrolling and I've come to your website I come back the second time around the price would have changed >> could change >> but this browser is shared by every browser.

>> Not really, not necessarily. By the way, in any case, the browser market has moved to app market now predominantly. >> Right? >> So right now volume- wise overwhelming 75 80% of the bookings will happen in the app. >> Right. >> There the switching is not easy. >> You give incentive to download >> real estate, huh? Download app. Absolutely. >> So that landscape has changed significantly. But that shopping behavior the other reason why the shopping behavior also change if you are a repeat buyer >> and that is a function of what experience I have been giving it to you not pre-sales not booking experience but also post sales >> what happens when the mayhem happens middle east crisis happened >> right what kind of service are we sort of offering accessibility to customer and so on over a period of time the trust gets built >> lot about providing the experience than just the pricing to be honest.

>> Of course, there will be segment like domestic air to today could be you know considered as very price sensitive market >> right >> but international is not because you will also have many options which could be very different. Don't you end up buying from where you have the highest loyalty points generally? uh depending upon because see you probably are thinking that only one cohort which is a small percentage of the consumer cohort >> right >> not the thinking affluent >> you you're thinking only affluent affluent perhaps >> right >> and you know yes today you can go to smart buy and you have the infinia card on HDFC you can buy you leveraging your points >> right >> but guess what that also is being powered by one of us >> right >> right so >> other other stuff about you that I have in my research chartered accountant here.

>> You see it >> from Delhi. >> He's a cricketer. >> Huh? >> Cricketer. >> You're a cricketer. >> I used to play cricket. >> Like serious serious? >> No. No. Not serious. Corporate cricket. >> Ab like later in life or >> later in see now I'm playing badminton. So I I actually like playing sports. >> Paddle. My son is playing paddle. >> Next is paddle only. Kabi. >> Fine. >> 57. >> 57.

>> Looks much younger. >> Yeah, he does. And >> I am 62. >> You're 62. >> You're the co-ounder. I'm a >> senior citizen. L2. >> You look like the naughtier naughtier person of the two. >> Every hotel year is naughty. >> Yeah. Every hotel year is naughty. >> That I don't know. >> Why is that? M >> because they live in that world. >> You have to entertain in a way, right?

Not in your role, but maybe in the beginning. >> No, I call myself chief entertainment officer. >> Yeah, you go. >> Yeah. What is Plakshshire University connection? I like Pla University. I think they're doing a great job. >> Quite like it and that is the reason. So this is in moi basically new age engineering college computer science lot more focused on data science AI and so on. >> You're co-founder of that? >> No no well co-founder is that >> just with I have not I'm not part of the founding team. I just started to sort of make I've just made the humble beginning >> and that happened thanks to a a friend who was the founder or a co-founder >> from the founding team when it was set up >> but the thought behind that was nickel very simple you know when it was basically to give back >> right so where can you sort of contribute >> and there was a and there is a you know

I I guess history you know you also have to have an interest area right so education is one of the interest areas because both my folks were professors >> yeah both your parents now >> even we are part of university I think they're all doing a good job not just that ashish dhan >> of course ashoka >> yeah they're all doing a great job something interesting is happening in mo >> yeah very interesting >> we actually wanted to go like I was not here this protest I was watching I thought we should go to these new universities and have a conversation on >> what is wrong with education. You would love it because and recently there was a convocation when you see this >> the new badge coming out and all of that and this is like a make one trip right it is >> you know even Ashoka >> uh liberal arts the focus of liberal arts had done fantastically well and Ashish is like a phenomenal guy Ashish deep is also deeply involved by the way >> uh with with the shoka so that >> I think this category of this Ashish

Manish Sabwal this group of people they're all interesting to speak to >> and Sanja >> and Sanjiv you were at info edge also >> no I was not at info edge I've just joined the board >> used to be on our board aa >> what is the thesis now >> what is the thesis >> now for info edge >> I don't know I'm the board member I'm the insider so I can't talk about it it's just early days for me >> but I'm sure they would be thinking more see they have two businesses right so there's the core business and they've diversified from the core business and then they've got the investment business right >> right >> and investment is again the same thesis continues right I'm sure there will be AI focus right now a lot of investments happening >> in the core business I think it's AI basically you know how do you sort of navigate that >> uh let's say no business which is their core traditional business now the new avdar of no with new products etc powered by AI

>> would you like to Go next. >> Very good. >> I know you're also from Delhi. >> That's correct. >> Germany may >> Europe other time Germany. >> Give us a little bit of a trajectory. Where did you you grew up in Delhi till what year? I was in Delhi more or less till the age of 25 and then spent the next 28 years in Europe.

>> So you started hotel management joined in the >> 81 to 84 84 to 89 I started with the government India Tourism Development Corporation. M >> most of the time I spent was at the Ashoke Hotel uh Delhi. >> Mhm. >> And 89 >> I left. M >> and I went to Paris for 2 years. >> What were you doing in Paris? >> My masters that time there was a program which is still there. So it's a business school called ESC one of the five grande calls of France which had a 50/50 tie up with Cornell from US so it was called Cornell >> right >> I did my masters there and then went to Germany worked in consulting worked for what is today called Rison Hotels worldwide for almost

15 years and then went on to run a hotel company in Germany for 5 years and >> hospitality >> hospitality and then back to where it all started from >> initially declined the offer to become CEO CEO of Taj Hotels in 2013 >> was as I that I was only one year as CEO >> and it's not that easy in Europe to be CEO those people are making an exception they're putting your trust into you.

>> So that was one of the reasons. Second is that family, you know, trying to keep the family together, school, class 12, etc. >> This is Ratant Tatayara. No, >> this is Rat Tat. >> He asked you. >> No, he never asked. Actually, there was a lot of that that he flew specially to talk to me. No, that's not true. It's not true. The only person I met uh I mean besides the other board members was uh the current chairman of Tatasan.

So >> who is >> and Chandra Shakhan. So he's the one who hired me and it went pretty fast. >> And the hotel business was not doing well before you. >> Yeah, we almost had 10 years of losses. Mhm. >> And uh >> would you prefer Taj Hotels or do you prefer IHCL? >> I'm the one who started using IHCL. The founder named the company Indian Hotels Company Limited. The name Indian Hotels exists since 125 years because we just did our 125th AGM. But nobody used it because in that new India post independence until maybe 20 years ago we still had that spirit of only luxury >> only going to our private membership club like chambers >> Taj being the crown jewel of everyone including India including Tata group so you rather

use Taj group but there was never a company which was called Taj Group >> right >> the company's name was always Indian hotels. So what in my experience it does is it does not allow other brands to stand on their feet. You're always like a second child or a stepchild or a >> what are the big brands in the group >> today? We have um we have almost 14 brands but the ones which are coming up very strongly is Vivanta Gateway and in terms of scale it's obviously ginger but we also have in boutique luxury uh clarages collection which includes the clarages in Delhi the Pune blue diamond will be clares um it also has the newly acquired brand called bridge very famous for the bridge Rama in uh Puly city of Banaras.

Uh so lots of brands of uh our >> armor right >> armor in homeay business which is now scaled up almost to 400 >> absolutely >> uh created during during co >> during >> cumin cumin and amma created during co >> as home delivery and now cumin is also become the all day dining of ginger so ginger sits in a company called roots corporation And both cumin and ginger are root vegetable or root spice. So it all just somehow came together. It was not a part of a strategy but when things happen they happen.

>> Can you give us a picture of your life where you were and how you came up with the idea of starting this company? >> So um we started Tribo back in 2015. And um I have to say I had no business starting this business. I was I'm a bit of an incidental hotel year. Um my background is in engineering, MBA like a lot of other I guess founders. But um while I was at Mckenzie in my consulting job, I was staying a lot in hotels. So that's the closest I've gotten to hotels in general. But yeah, back in 2015 uh after a short stint at Myntra was was thinking about what to do next and travel in general seemed like an exciting space uh because we could see the income pyramid of the country shifting and it was evident that a lot more people will start traveling than what we had seen in the 10 years before and therefore it seemed exciting to

build value brands in the travel space and that's what Tribo was all about. So it's been over 10 years since Ankit Pranam and I started stay at that point Airbnb was still entering the Indian market. People were not really staying at villas. Villas as a concept was still very new. The people who might have stayed at these would have stayed abroad. But what we saw as an opportunity was that there were beautiful homes that people had made but they weren't utilizing them. They needed a trusted partner who can take care of the entire hassle of hosting. That's where we come in for a homeowner and then for a consumer where the entire experience layer where we offer an entire experience to a guest whether it's uh housekeeping services whether it's spa services whether it's food whether it's decor for a celebration everything is taken care by us so that when people come together and stay at our homes they have a fab fabulous time >> so when I was working at I was really happy I was working as a head of operations but there was something

missing inside me and one random day I thought of taking a solo trip to Rishakkesh and uh it was back in 2022 wherein solo travel for a women used to be like a big thing and I remember booking the bus and my mother crying that dude what is happening why are you going alone we you have us you have your you know friends but I was like I want to do this and I actually was supposed to go there for 3 days but I spent 2 weeks there hitchhiked traveled solo explored host and when I came back I realized is solo travel is so liberating like you can do whatever you want to do because when you're with your friends when you're with your family you have to also make sure that you are understand you want you know you're also accommodating their needs but when you're solo you can do whatever you want to do and then my co-founder was also working in the same organization and I pushed him to go to Bali take a solo trip he came back and he had the same reaction that bhavika I am not traveling with anyone I am I'm

going to travel solo because it was so so liberating and I could feel the freedom and then both of us also took certain community trips wherein there was no filtration like we were in our 20 we were we are in our 20ies and there were people in their 40s and of course our problems and our things of discussion were different and their things of discussion were different and uh there was no racial control and even though the concept was great we were not coming back with the right sort of people and that's when we you know decided to start with something like Bokeetto which is an invite only company. So anybody who wants to join us they have to request their invite mention their age, their city, what do they do and why do they want to travel with us and then we get on a call with them to understand more and then we try to just have people you know we just try to find common thread between all the people who are joining us. Um and that is one of the major reasons u a lot of people have found their soulmates out of Buketto. We've covered all of that.

People have found their business partners. People have found their best of friends out of Buketto. So that is um how Betto came into place and that is how you know we that was the idea behind it that we just wanted to make the right sort of people come together and have a great time all together. So um my co-founder is was a senior tracker was an experienced tracker. Uh me on one on the other side I was working in the corporate I was a software engineer. I would gather my colleagues and we would go trekking in the western gards. So it was two different stories. Uh he would be somebody who would organize tres with his friends in the Himalayas and um so India hikes was his brainchild saying uh despite being blessed with the Himalayas we don't trek. And um during his many tres he uh realized that the lack of information is the biggest problem that plagues us. People don't know that these are possible. And that's when he wrote a blog about the Rukun tre which he had been on. And the blog became very very popular and people started to go to

Rukun on their own uh by referring the blog. Uh my parallel story was I used to tre in the western parts. I wanted to track in the Himalayas too and I was referring various blogs and resources and I stumbled upon his blog took inspiration from his blog and I wanted to organize my own track to Rukot. Uh back then there were no organizers like India hikes where I could go. Uh basically uh you had to either spend a lot of money and you had to have a group of your own because going as one or two people was impossible to the Himalayas.

And um I in the quest of making my own group to go to the Himalayas following that blog I went and placed a comment on his blog saying uh I'm forming a group would anybody like to join me and that's when Arjun wrote back to me saying uh I am doing this uh we are launching a small thing called as India heights would you want to be a part of that group now that's where I said yes uh why not I referring to your blog if I get to go with you that's great and um over and that trick happened to be the very first trek of India hikes and um over the tre um the impact the tre had on me the impact the tre had on my uh fellow treers uh I just stayed in touch with Arjun I did not want to let that world go despite uh being a software engineer and I started helping him in uh publicizing India heights publicizing the rupun trek designing the track for the next season um so I was an an integral part of the next season of the tre that happened um our association

continued like this for about 7 to 8 months and that's when he said okay I think you should uh take a call if perhaps you want to just switch over from your software work to come into India hikes be with me and let us grow this because we have an opportunity here how big are the two companies for scale I know you're listed so you can talk about the number >> yeah yeah >> how big is MMT now >> well make my trip let's say gross booking value last year fully full last year reported it's about 11 billion >> and margin but gross take rate is about let's say that is revenue line for us is about 10 10 and a half% so over a billion dollar >> so revenue actual revenue is like >> is over a billion dollar >> and on the profitability fund >> and uh I our adjusted ebid number adjustment is only sharebased compensation is 1.7% of the gross booking number >> which is >> which is 170 million

>> right >> roughly >> and ICL reported its results for the last financial year is almost 10,000 K in revenue and 2,000 K plus as profit after tax. So very similar sizes both companies are >> no but we are more efficient more profitable course of course and and better market cap >> how big is this AI thing >> I think in our world it's huge >> are you seeing it change already >> change in terms of what >> like if I am going to MMT's website and looking for a hotel today are people already going to charge GPT and saying find me the cheapest price on next hotel >> not as much so we let's Hey, we are also on chat GPT. We actually have and they have a feature called at make my trip.

You can bring in your brand and you can have your own native experience. We are not getting too much traffic uh coming in from there. It's taking time. >> Why would you allow Chad GPT to scrape your data? Can't you block that? >> Everybody blocks it >> but you end up still doing it >> on the internet. Uh they end up still doing it. You will you will obviously do whatever you can do to block it but you don't see what you do end up protecting is deep data deep in the funnel and that you know those layers there can be multi-layer security that you can build that can do it so superficial if it is it's already even in any case is public >> so what data matters nickel in this business is not necessarily that super top layer data >> top layer is price availability >> availability price you know just the description of the product >> under it >> under it is user related data right the the and traffic and you have like your customer data >> the the preferences of consumers

>> right >> right right because what let's say nil has been coming to our platform and what has been buying over a period of time different products let's say if you were buying a product you were taking a you know sort of going with the group you were buying a homeay or you were buying a hotel which kind of hotel were you buying and even the funnel drop off data like how much time are you spending are you a looker or are you or are you a booker are you a serious traveler or high intent traveler or a low intent >> so if you incorporate AI in your company >> that is correct >> you will not use these LLMs from >> No we will we we will use >> they get that data no >> no not necessarily not all of it >> I'm asking you won't run an open-source model of your own and try to put your data in that so it's >> so I'll tell you see right now what we're trying to what we are doing and it's an evolution you know uh which I believe will happen so early days because these frontier models were very very strong so you end up using multiple frontier models

>> right >> like cloud and open air >> all of them like Gemini the claude the cursor the uh uh GPT but uh the grounding of that will happen with our propriety data that data doesn't go anywhere like user reviews for example that only belongs to us. >> When you say grounding what do you mean? >> Just to make sure that the accuracy and the relevance of the responses to the customer is far more accurate than generic.

>> After the model generates something you're checking on your end if it's right. >> That is correct. So our own data is also intelligence. >> Why don't you run your own model on your own data? you must have >> you could potentially do it right but it's just a matter of I don't know whether we will sort of evolve into that also or not see right now what is happening is because of let's say the cost pressure because if you end up continue to continuously keep using u you know big LLMs then of course the token cost is prohibitive right but then there is now >> and they might replicate your business model like they're doing in many cases >> you know I'll tell you the reason why I don't think that replication is so easy in a deep transaction business versus a you know generic search business.

>> Think about Google for example. So Google historically has always been perceived as potential competition threat also but they could never go deep into the funnel. What I mean by deep into the funnel is >> but Google never tried. No like if Google >> they they tried but superficially they've been selling traffic to us right to every online platform >> but only selling traffic. So the >> but they never tried to build a business online. >> That is what I'm saying. But these models are >> no models also very different. So think about it like >> industry anthropic is starting financial services.

>> Yeah. But but let's say travel services. You think about payment page like the you know payment page 20 options with multiple credit card alliances. You will have to do all of that right. You can't scrape and do it. Yeah. You cannot pick it up from everywhere and say okay here's the best uh option that and then fulfillment then the after sale experience where would you go you know you're not going to take customer calls or take customer queries for you to service those customers right that so that fulfillment and that's true for product commerce also like for Amazon and Flipkart very hard it is not easy to build that because see that is where the heavy lifting has happened over a period >> flip card tried they bought this company in travel right >> clear trip Yeah.

>> Yeah. But they running clear trip independently. >> First they were doing Flipkart >> within Flipkart or travel within Flipkart but then they saw this opportunity dist but that's diversification that's completely different. >> But you're running it as a vertical OTAA. So AI is more an enabler than a disruptor of our business because AI will help us streamline a lot of our operations. I also look at our business as something which is AI proof because with the amount of interaction with digital media as well as AI and technology that's taking place in people's life, people want something that feels real. People want real human connections and holidays, especially getaways with your group, gives you an opportunity to really disconnect from that entire social tech bubble to being in a very real personalized environment.

And you know, it's a favorite hobby for all business leaders to believe and to claim that their business will not get negatively impacted by AI. and I'll pretend to to to do that as well. But but yeah, look, I think it is it is of course without without dispute the most powerful technology technology revolution that we have seen at least in my lifetime and it is evolving at such a rapid pace that I would never say never in terms of what it can or cannot do going forward.

>> It doesn't matter to you now. >> No, it does matter. I think >> like do you care if your booking is happening via MMT or via charg? >> No, that doesn't matter as much. But you could use AI sitting on top of your revenue management system to optimize the level of revenue. That's internally >> not from a sales model of finding the client. >> No, I think more important is the back of house. So the problem about AI and all these customer data is suppose we are having coffee like right now but I go off coffee and I start drinking tea no matter which hotel I'll go to they'll put coffee for you and you know you also get get carried away or you like drinking beer or or gin and suddenly you switch to something else and then they'll still keep bringing that because that's what the data says >> the pattern Yes.

>> How much data do you capture at the hotel? >> A lot. >> Yeah. >> A lot of data is captured. Yeah. >> I remember once in this hotel in Paris Nyella Reserve or something like that. It was a nice like boutique hotel. They would remember what >> reserve is more like the Starbucks coffee thing. >> Na reserve is this old Napoleon Kagar converted into a hotel or something like that in Paris. It's like a tiny chain. But they would remember as much as how I had my eggs on my last trip there and what I ate with my eggs and the next time they would remember and serve me exactly that. Do you think for a hotel business like yours it would make sense to capture that much data?

>> I don't think so. You know that especially for us in India you know the service is from the heart. That's our Asian hospitality. We should not mechanize it so much and we have so many cuisines. >> If I have had a dosa for breakfast and maybe I want omelette tomorrow and if I have a three night stay, maybe the third day I want puri bhaji or something. So it's very different. I think that's the that's the challenge also to fit that in. If you look at the breakfast buffets in India, they are massive versus anywhere in the world. anywhere I have not.

>> And what all do you capture data wise? >> We capture you know the customers preferences the way they book from preferences of meals preferences of uh >> you mean like veg nonveg >> veg nonveg also everything gets captured in that form >> like if I came to Taj in uh L's end which is right next door and I ordered biryani 6 months ago if I come back you will know that I ordered biryani 6 months ago. Yes and no. It depends who's capturing that data. So sometimes you do and sometimes you don't. That is not as I said it's not very processed. It's from the heart. So if the chef is coming and especially Lens and had this wonderful chef of ours who's now moved to Mahel Palace in Kaba he will come to you say sir.

He has this very special art of doing it. Then no matter what you wanted to eat, you really actually go with what the chef is recommending you to eat >> and saying I made specially for you. But that's the very Indian way of hospitality which is great because it differentiates you from the rest of the world and we should keep that. >> But if you want to incorporate more tech in hospitality, you'll need to capture more data, right? >> We do. But there are many other uses of data. For example, today we have 700 getting close to 700 hotels which means at least 500 plus contracts assuming that some of the contracts are for multi-use properties.

How do you get a contract summary? So you can use a lot of that data AI to generate you know basic contract summary which you can teach your general managers that how you should study your own contract. >> So I think that that part is very important. uh as as an example of non-c customerf facing which is internal you know simplifies your processes there's a professional element in AI that can you know simplify the way you work the way you capture data from customers and there is a business element in which your speed of getting a job done improves you know if you're not good at writing English letters you can have chat GPT do it for you so I've seen seen a lot of our people what happened you know and you can make out actually when the letter comes to you can make out this is written by Chad GPT or an individual >> they don't appreciate it right when it's written by >> you have to use still a bit of your own

common sense and tweak it a bit so it looks like your own >> right I was in China and in a lot of hotels I was seeing these robots >> which were doing service you tried it at Ginger >> we have one in the Ginger Mumbai report that goes around. >> What is the response to that? >> It's more like fun. What what I said the fun element but uh does it replace any jobs? The answer is no. Actually, should we be doing it? My answer would be no. It's not very socially responsible. We have we have young demographic population uh to our advantage. Mhm.

>> So either we get the robos to help people find jobs or we should not replace human beings with robos. We'll also lose our service. It's okay in the population is old. There are not people available to serve you know that they >> won't somebody else do it and the margins will be higher for them. >> No >> cuz you don't have to pay the robot salary. No. >> Till date it has not happened. is like as much as 1 800 number call this toll-free number in the US you don't get anything since last 30 years without calling a toll-free number in India it never happens you know this physical AI interesting you mentioned China and you've done in law so you know US because he's very bullish about robotic AI as well or physical AI as well see China is showing the scale on that at least in the manufacturing side and various other places in fact including hotels potentially you know you will replace kiosks at many places with

robots right because you know the the first level of automation was also kiosk right in the airports you will see chaos >> self-service kiosk right >> and that's one machine getting replaced by another machine so that could be one of the use cases >> so pun what seems to be happening in China is that there it is catching up fire literally >> I not just in service there it's catching on in a bunch of things we went to this company called Sharpa. >> Yeah. >> Which makes the wrist with 18 joints. >> Yeah. >> It has so much dexterity that it's able to take a deck of cards, pick one.

>> Wow. >> It can play table tennis and beat you. >> Yeah. I saw I've seen that. >> There was a company which had a automated kitchen >> like a robot in a 300 ft kitchen >> who's able to start to finish cook everything. >> Yeah. >> At scale. >> This also brings standardization that is very hard to bring with a human being. Yeah. >> See, we have our flight kitchen business which is Tat Sats. Sats is >> of course >> the one that runs a Singapore airport. Also, >> we have the capability of doing I don't know hundreds of tons of basmati rice cooked differently with just two people.

Everything else is done by the machine including the cleaning of the rice, the cooking of the rice, getting it packed >> with the cutlery etc. So it depends what job uh that you're trying to do. When I talk about our sector hospitality, the human hospitality is very difficult to replace by the robots >> in luxury >> especially in luxury. >> What about ginger and budget? >> Ginger and all can happen. Yeah, that is not you know that is more cookie cutter. So the very >> it likely happened. It is happening as we speak. It's happening but definitely not upscale upper upscale in luxury. How see if you go to a wedding you'll have only robos serving you. That's not going to happen. I'm surprised how much they spoke about this segment. It feels like the whole episode was on this.

Um, look, you know, there is this visual of, of course, a robot delivering stuff in a hotel and moving around a hotel, which no doubt has caught everyone's, you know, fancy over the last many years, and it is still yet to be fully rolled out. And I'm sure it'll happen again. It's one of those things where I'm adequately paranoid about what will or will not happen in the future without pretending to be smart enough to predict that future. Um, >> but would you bet on >> I I I 100% would look I mean I would always bet with technologies provice is not against it ever. All that I'm trying to say is the shape and form that it will take for example to even say it'll be a humanoid which is a very specific term I don't know right I mean um for me any kind of friction I mean I would assume safely that you know no customer would ever say that okay in the name of a human touch in the name of a great experience I would want to deal with

more humans necessarily at least not in most facets of their hotel experience right So um so for sure there would be a role for robots to play in let's say I don't know cleaning the room in bringing stuff to your room um you know in in helping you with check out check-ins checkouts payments etc. Now what shape and form does that robot take or whether it is even a robot or not is not is not something I would kind of place a bet on today but I certainly think like you know we have developed for example in our in Medallio the closest that we could have gotten to the digatra experience in hotels where for sure you could go check in stay for a few days check out of a hotel without even interacting with with a human um and I'm sure there will be more of that coming.

So I'm not in a position to say the layer above that will be humans or the layer below will be humans etc. Um it'll be interesting to see how this very intangible soft aspect of human personality evolves in terms of how they see hotels. You know do they see hotels as as places they stay at maybe in our segment for sure while they explore the city such that the place should be just super efficient does not matter what human interactions they have there or not. Maybe the lesser the better versus maybe if they are staying in a luxury resort somewhere where they would love their pampering, they would love their spy experience, where they would love to have a butler looking after them all the time and so on. So how that expectation of hotels evolves, you know, we'll see.

It's it's probably part of the evolution of human psyche while traveling. But for sure, I think uh uh I would certainly bet in favor of eliminating friction and not leaning on the human touch to keep it. I don't think any customer would welcome that. Say in 5 years from now, how will MMT NHCL change by virtue of a AI both like physical and digital?

>> You can go first. >> I'll tell you. See the um first the consumerf facing right because um which is over the last 25 years has also been evolving you know first the device preference changed from desktop browser to mobile app and so on and people got used and now I think the future is likely to be conversational interface right which is what we have started building you know with to your earlier question on GPT etc. See one part of the thing is that because we have rich data you also start building that sort of uh leveraging AI and build that interface because it's conversational. Ironically and I've started giving this example at many places. Now think about it. The shift earlier happened from human touch where traditionally people will call the travel agent right because I want to talk to someone moved from human

interaction to self-service. Internet all e-commerce businesses are self-service. You come on this thing is very convenient. You can choose what you like of your choice and you can do it at a quick speed right there with a sheer convenience of doing it right. I don't have to just the click of button. I don't have to interact with anyone and now with AI it is going back to conversation. >> So, >> so you will build a MMT interface which is voice first >> already there.

>> So, but it's happening. It's happening. So I'll tell you about 80 90,000 daily conversations happening today. >> Has it gone like massively viral >> and these guys are using what like a whisper flow is sitting on top of it or is it your >> voice model based on and so a lot of it is by the way 20 25% in voice and also about 25% traffic is coming from >> you've tied up with a whisper flow or 11 labs or somebody and their voice bot is sitting on top of it. >> That's correct. multiple models used with our own data and then we have the feature on on myra right so uh now it is giving you an opportunity to to have a conversation again >> so if we see from in the context of travel and tourism industry and see the opportunity side of it >> uh because the other very important point which gets missed out is going to be consumer adoption by the way >> because it takes time you know so and and we end up sort sort of sometimes um

just generalizing for a lack of better word >> that let's say even for personalization but but tend to sometimes look at you know forget about the mix of the consumers that you'll have right in a country like India all kind of segments that you'll have you some will have language preference some will have uh you know will not be as sevy uh of of technology as the others would be etc etc right so consumer adoption on not withstanding because that's going to be journey in my view but the opportunity is going to be now think about tier three tier four the gap that we have on internet penetration and e-commerce penetration today internet penetration is 900 million plus >> you know maybe a billion already and the online buying is about 250 300 million depending upon which all all told also by by and large so I think there is a clear opportunity for a discretionary product like ours another 200 million >> right now they're not necessarily buying

online for many reason but one of them is that I have inhibition I have inertia because of the language and I I'm overwhelmed when I come to the funnel there's too much through to deal with now I can just go on myra and I start having conversation whether it is Hindi or English or Canada or >> I think what you're saying and what he's saying is the same thing you're saying that premium will be humanlike like >> yes >> handmade >> absolutely >> but everything budget and affordable will become more AI >> I'll tell you what >> even in premium even in premium >> even in premium I give an example hotel president in Mumbai try that you have a I mean you're talking to a machine booking a table but you don't get to know till almost the conversation is going to end it's done very well we are getting more orders and that's where humans get replaced but I doubt if in the premium You'll have machines coming and serving you or you it opens up.

>> It'll be human with a machine. >> Yeah. Is it will be a human with a machine >> but services will become more niche like the the difference between a mass premium and a ultra premium will be completely different where one will require a completely different kind of answer and another will require a completely different kind of answer. >> Yeah, I think so. And I think maybe we are 5 10 years uh away from that also happening in India or this big change. But it's like anything >> you know 20 years ago if you went to a Japanese place and wanted to have a sushi it was already you know something which was rolling out you just pick it up right what you wanted and then you pay it through the machine or you go and buy any clothes anywhere today in uh any advanced country you just put them in a thing it automatically gets charged. So all that will happen but in service sector I think it will take time because you just don't pay for the product you also pay a premium for the

service that you are being provided >> or the human touch. So if Google owned discovery of hotels or flight tickets or whatever and then MMT came and sat on top of that in the next leg of the cycle with AI is it MMT on AI or is it something which is AI native? >> No I think it's going to be independent vertical and solving uh end to end funnel. So let me give you an example. >> Can't the hotel become that itself? It can do absolutely it's a question of investment can have discovery on AI.

>> It it is a fundamentally it will be a question of core versus non-core and building capabilities and investing behind it. >> Like if we were talk we were to be talking to like say somebody who's 25 year old looking to start a business in this sector. >> What layer do you think he should focus on that will get created and what layer will get disrupted? >> It'll be a direct function of what business model that he wants to have. >> What should he do? Where is the opportunity? Say Google became MMT. MMT is now becoming a funnel on AI. The hotel itself can be on AI tomorrow where it becomes its own.

>> So in the tech world, let's say the distribution layer, the discovery down to actual booking, which is effectively the channel, right? Because my view is now the discovery that was not necessarily 100% solved by verticals like us will also get solved because we will have an opportunity to build the mouth of the funnel directly. Now like today also we we have 75% of the traffic coming directly on us >> and that comes in with the trust built over a period of time on the brand. I don't really need to go to Google any any even today right >> so I don't think Google is solving for 100% of the discovery today >> it's solving for 20% of the discovery today right so some unique cases or whatever and even Google is getting disrupted because now AI is disrupting their business first >> right because with the AI overview this legacy SEM SEO is going to go go or go go go through a change right >> right >> so the the way to think about this will be let's say if you have make a choice

between generic search business with monetization model coming from traffic >> that I build content it's a content business keep building content right and you are a very content heavy business powered by AI build all the kind of intelligence to build the relevance for the customer answer every possible query and then because I have ton of traffic I will monetize that traffic and monetize of that monetization of that traffic will happen with the businesses only because businesses will come and advertise on them right or you are thinking about a business vertical a category vertical which is the let's say travel tech right which is like online distribution or online travel agency as a model >> so what is the opportunity if you have to summarize I'm asking you as a 25 year old I want to build between these layers what should I build and which layer I should I not build >> if if you ask me if you look at all the ecosystem together like on including the supply side the real opportunity is to

bring in tech layers on the supply side the level of digitization >> he's the supply >> yes >> how do I bring the tech layer on top of supply >> on the like he was alluding to one is one part of it is revenue management now I sale will be doing it the revenue management because you have to sell the from a distribution >> is that opportunity or discovery of the hotel is the opportunity paying 12 to 15% over there as margin >> that will be nickel it's a function of economics even today >> there is every brand will be doing direct right it is a function of two things one is a function of what is your going to be your cost of customer acquisition doing it directly versus you are doing it with let's say a player like us right the second is going to be the customer choice because our platform is going to be comprehensive multiple choices because customer would want to see all the time like selection of uh products before you buy one right so I I think it's both will coexist. Even today the direct business also happens on on

ICL and the distribution business also happens on and even the offline business believe it or not happens. I have this question for you Bonit say Zomatoi for restaurants the margins that they charge are so high and you'll have a view on it because of being on info edge board. I see at some point soon the restaurant himself will want to be discovered directly and build direct relationships and omit the middleman in a way. At your scale the number of hotels and rooms you have to service.

At what point will you be like okay I'll take my inventory out of all these discovery sites and manage it myself because at this scale people have to come to me. So two things first I want to go back to something you asked as a 25 year old >> I would tell the 25 year old there's enough platforms there are enough people working on AI there's a lot of competitor overcrowding don't go there start a boutique hotel business or start very nice clean budget hotel business and you will have a lot of success >> really >> yeah yeah you could do thousands of hotels in India I 100% think so. In fact, I would say that advice is more right today than it would have probably been 11 years ago when we actually started this because the timing is just so ripe, you know, in terms of

where um our income pyramid is, what's happening to the middle income segment of the country, what's happening to people's aspirations to travel, fueled by a lot of things, but of course importantly So with their own incomes growing to a level where they can afford travel and we've seen this in the examples of pretty much all developed countries whether again the usual suspects of a US a China where when the when the demographic started to reach when the macroeconomy started to reach a certain level uh it unlocks affordable travel uh because there are just so many more people which create the demand pull for those kind of uh offerings. So yeah, 100% I think that's the right advice today.

>> So many things that I would want to get built out in this entire ecosystem. Being early movers in this ecosystem honestly we've had to put in a lot of effort in building each and every layer out just like a flipkart or Amazon when they started they had to build out every rail in the eco in the e-commerce ecosystem. So whether it's finding good technicians in locations such as Korg or in Alibag whether it's finding good cooks in these locations whether it's taking care of the facility management of these villas or even building these villas we've had to find relevant folks to make this happen. We'd love entrepreneurs who can build entire businesses in each of these verticals.

Whether it's someone who becomes a caterer in Goa or whether it's a caterer in Manali or whether it's an a great baker who can deliver cakes to us in a location such as UTI. uh so each of these locations I think there's an opportunity for a lot of entrepreneurs to get created that can deliver services whether it's someone who's delivering you know hikes uh to take people on hikes in a location such as Casali so what what I'm trying to touch on is that there are so many different layers that come together or services that come together to give a great experience and I think for each of them uh we would love to see more and more entrepreneurs come up and build If you look at uh Motel 1 in Germany, you look at IBIS in France or Formula 1 at you look at Premier in in UK, you look at uh Travel Lodge in UK, look at Hampton in in in the US and you know country in comfort in there's so many brands and look at

the population of India and the amount of supply we have in this segment. So they >> but affordability is also lesser. No huh >> the affordability is less but it's increasing every day. So when you start thinking of it today by the time you build the affordability factor will come >> like as a sector out of India's GDP let's say the GDP is 4 trillion. >> Yeah. >> Tourism direct and indirect all of it put together is only about 6% 200 billion which compared to say the west when you're comparing to the US is a significantly smaller number. So that means it'll only go up right if India is going to be 30 trillion instead of four then if 10% is coming from tourism which is 3 trillion and 80% of it is domestic that's how it will work >> but if you're growing at 6% or 7% the number of years of compounding required to get to 30 is by the time the youngster's kids are dead >> so that is the opportunity because A lot

of tourism today is in unorganized sector. So that doesn't get counted. >> You know your dal lake shikara wallala the rksha wala in you know from the gut to kashiishana temple those people who are selling stuff to the the tourists coming from Switzerland or Germany or or Scandinavia. This will get eventually organized and those numbers change. At the moment we are saying six because you are not able to capture the unorganized number >> like these tourists coming from outside the number for India is 20 million >> number half >> half of that is NRIs so 10 million is actual foreigners coming into India like UAE gets 30 million >> Paris gets 25 gets 100 million >> gets 100 but correct but there is a different reason huh there is that is for a different Infrastructure >> infrastructure there potential is there

no infrastructure improvement is the opportunity area >> right >> but you know I just wanted to add one variant to what Punit was saying earlier on that opportunity India is by the way echo short supply market compare it with anyone like we have whichever report that you see it anywhere between 1.5 to 1.67 67 million rooms. Pick up any like two big cities will have that kind that that many numbers and Singapore together number of rooms as whole of India.

>> So one one one opportunity that's the one data point. The second one is also the non-standardization >> when we were talking about it in the beginning let's say before we uh started the opportunity of the midsegment hotels the one that you were talking about or the one let's say you know Punit was talking about earlier which can give a better quality experience the opportunity is huge like you know blue motel for example, Bloomchain, right? It's a good example of that hotel. All what they have tried to do is to reposition that that uh you know, sort of accommodation differently. You know, >> we did that with Ginger too.

>> Yeah. Ginger. Ginger is >> went from budget to lean luxury. >> Absolutely. Lean luxury. Right. So that's like a great uh sort of term to put in. Right. So if you look at it from a supply standpoint there is ton of opportunity because today on season uh you know when you have peak seasons or long weekends you will be short uh on inventory and therefore people would want to go out one reason. The second one will be because the prices go up right >> if you're short of inventory like you're saying why is the occupancy not 100%.

Yeah, but because when we look at we measure occupancy and he will be the expert but when we measure occupancy we look at it 365 days >> you should look at occupancy when it is peak season season people >> but I can't build a business model based on peak right >> no not necessarily not and also India is a tropical country there are extreme weather conditions so when it's very hot people stay inside nobody from outside comes And when it's monsoon, it's monsoon. There is a certain segment >> which comes to India only in the monsoon especially from the Middle East. They sit in the hotel rooms and just keep looking at the rains. I mean they are fascinated.

>> But why is this number so low? Like you said infrastructure when we spoke earlier only 10 million for a country with as much culture and history and culinary stuff. >> You can have the best of the culture in the world. You can have the best of uh monuments from sun. >> We have 45 UNESCO sites. >> Yeah. 45 UNESCO sites. But we have to tell the world no we have this. Please come and see. >> You think it's a marketing problem? >> It's a marketing problem. >> Do you think government is not spending on marketing?

>> I think I it's it has been the case. That's what we have been lobbying for. >> Yeah, we've been lobbing for see incredible India has not really happened for a while. that you that was the last campaign but you know even before marketing if you think about it to to my mind that might be relatively the easier part because if you decide to invest in marketing you'll invest and you will do it no good job of it I think before that let's talk about these UNESCO sites only on ground experience is the is the issue is that world class right and starting from literally cha things right you know starting from washrooms the lues the parking facilities the crowd management the queue management and accessibility >> what happens if the government privatizes all this >> I think it'll do a world of good and and there are examples >> you guys could run it >> we do wherever we can we do it as part of CSRs but almost all responsible

companies not just us clean their beaches clean the roads to the monuments um they don't necessarily rely on the So all the beaches you see in Goa where where there is a Taj they're cleaned by us. >> Let's say we want to make the number of incoming foreigner tourist go from 10 million to 100 million. Say you were to be the prime minister of India for 5 years. I'll ask both of you this question. What are three things you would change to make that happen?

Punit is Indian prime minister 5 years. Indian prime minister it can be construed >> but okay hypothetically let's say you're part of let's say a tourism board uh driving this >> number one is the positioning of the sector so we have to understand that tourism creates the strength of brand India across the globe it gives you that soft power of negotiating on anything because people know you and respect you for everything that you have historically but today they don't know us that way right the second thing it does is helps you get investment from outside that means if you grant certain status which has been taken away from this sector like infrastructure status or within the states industry status so that it can compete with other sectors now every sector might want that but many sectors

have it and many don't have it. So if it's a part of your agenda, you have to do the positioning of of tourism as a infra and as a industry. The >> okay point is marketing India. >> I'm just going to write it down. Point number one was tourism should get what's what uh >> infrastructure status. >> Okay. Point number two, >> which >> which actually basically gets you cheaper loan and longer moratorum because it's a labor intensive and capital intensive sector. Same I would say 1 A and 1 B is 1 A is infrastructure and 1 B would be industry status within the states so that your cost of utilities and everything else is not taxed at the highest level but as per any other commercial building is fine.

>> Okay. Next >> the second is last mile connectivity all these monuments. So we have the beautiful airports >> uh today thanks to all the spending of the government on highways and trains and airports but the last mile something is always missing. Right? >> Give me an example. Example is um you know you can u come to a beautiful train station with the wand bharat but getting out of the platform and to the road and into the taxi is not a seamless experience as the platform even the platform >> okay >> so whether it's because of population or it's because of uh education or because of whatever that behavior is I mean >> if you by the time a flight lands and if it's all economy flight uh the dhakam duka you have to get out and if you're on an aisle seat the number of rucks sacks that hit you is a you know there are certain things which are a hindrance to >> aspect how does the government solve that

>> the government cannot solve that that is education that will be a natural transition as the nation grows the prosperity grows just like airline traffic has grown all this will also grow this is not government uh can't do that >> you're the prime minister you can change anything you U uh the other thing I would do is obviously market India the what uh what Rajes said incredible India 3.0 do is maybe overdue as a campaign whether we call it incredible India or inevitable India or any other name. We need to market India. Malaysia followed India by doing Malaysia truly Asia and we stopped somewhere. So I think that that could be a big head.

>> Why is the government not marketing India? Why is I think India is a heterogenous country with so many needs and wants that maybe in the list of priorities this is not the top priority maybe there are other priorities so where they have done for example one could argue if I was you said I'm the prime minister right I'm spending all this money on infrastructure airports trains highways so that we get more people and a better experience Right. So what else you want? You are the indirect beneficiary uh of infrastructure is always tourism and hospitality. So that's a big benefit that the last mile which is missing. Um I think the one more thing besides the marketing campaign that can be done is to have a comparable tax regime which helps you if your airport taxes are the highest if your cost of fuel is the

highest if your GST is the highest if you have taking away input tax credit etc etc then it already you don't have infra status you don't have industry status then you all these other taxes coming in that is a hindrance to investment coming into the sector. >> When you say comparable tax regime, what are you comparing it with? >> You could compare it to when people say why Thailand gets more people, why Vietnam gets more people, why Singapore gets more people. >> I say to Thailand specifically.

>> So specific to Thailand, they're far lower in, you know, the in the GST equivalent of their country. Visas on arrival, e visas, how that works. So the ease of ease of travel >> like when I talk to my friends in the US and UK they say it's really hard to get a Indian visa. Why is that >> I don't know I have not applied for one for a long time. No, but you're right because see I don't think that level of openness there see we used to have almost like none visa regime and we move to e visa to but very selectively we haven't really see if you take a step back nickel what has happened is that we have India is an investment destination so India is India had massive reforms to to showcase India as a as a as a very premium investment destinations for the businesses and for the investors and we got all the traffic. We didn't have to

do anything. We just actually had to do fundamentally reforms to open up FDI >> and position India as a big consumption story and so on and so forth right three four big things on macros and we attracted crowd immediately on the back of that right and there the same crowd has been coming they are not coming as tourists when they come in by the way they go to Agra also >> but they're not necessarily coming as as tourists right >> and and therefore if You just use the same analogy.

>> What do I need to do is to actually first improve my product. >> Yeah, >> my product is is below average right now. You know, world benchmark like some of the the places would be world class. But if I look at it pan India I it is average right? So >> but there are many other elements in this. I'll give you a story of my own life. I used to go to Goa growing up. Please try the salad. >> Yeah. And a couple of years ago I moved to Goa. I live there a lot now.

>> You don't see any foreign tourists in Goa at all anymore. They're all talking about Sri Lanka. The few that are there >> are one year away from going to Sri Lanka. >> Yeah. >> And it's not just that the infra is not good enough or the taxi lobby it's or the hotels are not good enough. It's not just that. It's the cultural element of the locals not being welcoming to >> foreign tourists. It's when they want to have a concert or a show, people come and get in the way saying this is not our culture.

>> Yeah. >> Even that is a problem. Even that is driving away tourism. >> See, see if you really think about and Goa by the way if you think about it Goa there's only one Goa, right? Can I just replicate Goa? So I need to think pan India, right? So Goa has good infrastructure beach destination the only possible beach destination that we have maybe and is doing better maybe we'll create luxury tomorrow but that's about it right now not that it's a very good one you give it's like a penalty stroke so I have to take it >> yeah of course >> we did have luck >> yeah we did have >> one of the most beautiful destinations >> but the last mile connectivities by the time you land >> and the ferry has to go in Port Blair And then you have to go to Avlock.

You can't make it. So you have to stay a night in Port Blair. Uh so we somehow managed depending on where you were coming from. But most of the >> But tell me specifically for Goa what went wrong? It was working. There was tourism. >> There was tourism was the mass tourism. >> So what is very important? So the second I was wanted to say is Lakshmi. We are building two islands and we're already running one. Bangaram we are running and suely Kadmat we are building. So it'll come another two give it 2 3 years they'll be done. Now Goa had a lot of charters coming in.

>> Yes. >> The ability to charge in Goa went up because the ability for Indians to pay more in Goa also went up. So actually it's the Indians who have replaced the mass tourism which was coming from outside of India which is good for the destinations because given where we stand today it is better for us to have a balance between quality and quantity. One does not replace the other but >> you're saying the quality was lower. The quality of the tourists coming was lower. Their spending power was lower but we got a lot of charters which because of the Russia, Ukraine, because of the Middle East has stopped to a great extent >> because of that situation. But if you have to draw a parallel exactly the same example one part of Australia they lot of that crowd charters included go to Indonesia Bali.

>> Charters you're saying is low-end tourism or high-end tourism? >> Charter is basically mass tourism. Right. >> Why is that? >> Because it's just cheaper destination. But you get beach and you get everything else along with the beach. >> In my mind when you say charter, I'm thinking high end. >> No, not necessarily that you know elite charter. >> That's another way to look at that. >> That is elite. That that is elite charter. No, no, no. Not not that >> 300 people or 280 or whatever in a >> in a plane they come and they leave and then the next set of 280.

>> It's a charter bus. >> All inclusive. your drinks, food, all inclusive for a family of four very popular in Europe for example uh on that part of the world because wherever there is sun they travel there because they don't get the sun 6 8 months a year so uh we could get a lot of that in Goa if we if we were wanting to have that >> but you think that's not good for Goa >> I don't think so >> because we A lot of our customers also now >> what can go out to get high-end charters.

>> There's nothing like a high-end charter. You can get uh >> in my mind I'm thinking people who fly in private planes. >> Private planes. Yes, you can get them. And uh >> what does Goa need to change to do that? I'm just going to go to the washroom and come. Please continue speaking. >> I don't think Goa needs to change anything to get those because it does get that already today. >> Yeah. Even the premium crowd. Uh if you look at that um >> wedding segment >> a wedding segment is very strong >> and corporate >> corporate is very strong meetings events incentives your own hotel >> the smaller bungalows that have been restored uh you know on a large small large uh bungalows like Jimmy Gazders by theies that Sanjay did but for but this kind of a crowd what Nikl was alluding True. Now think any foreign destination. No. So you have to have a good experience on let's say casinos.

The sea that doesn't that >> that doesn't. >> So then overall it adds to the product, right? >> That we don't have like those many speedboards. We don't have the the yachts. We don't have any of those. Right. Because that adds now those that kind of premium crowd would want that kind of an experience overall. Right. It's absolutely spot on. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because everything else is there in Goa. >> You need to have again that's also your last connectivity because if you are traveling from the airport for an hour by road then you have to take a ferry from there to go to another island.

>> Absolutely. And similar example that you were giving permanent. So when you land if the ferry is not going to be like high speed high quality then it's average experience. >> Yeah. >> Isn't it? >> Correct. Correct. So, so Goa is but a bit easier I would say still than um >> it's a luxury problem where we don't need we have enough >> enough people domestic going into Goa but what you said >> where is the next Goa that's more important >> exactly >> so in India the entire tourism activity is concentrated in those 12 to 15 destinations >> absolutely >> and I think we need to build the next 15, 20, 30 because the current destinations will collapse as the demand will far exceed the infrastructure as well as the supply available out there.

Precisely >> to absorb that support >> precisely and for that >> it's all Uttakand it's all you know te tourism it's all kashmir it's all Goa it's all you know >> you have to load balance because right now those 15 20 destinations if that are overloaded and therefore it becomes even the infrastructure the in destination experience becomes even a big problem you know what happens in Shimla for example or Manali for example If somebody has to go to Rotang Pass, that's one way road.

>> Correct. >> And you would be stuck in traffic. >> Yeah. >> Forever, right? >> Or we turn the clock back. We had this announcement by the honorable finance minister on 50 new destinations >> precisely. >> To be developed on a mission mode. >> Yes. >> But we still haven't identified which are those 50. I think once the destination is humpy, I think that will boom for sure. Like the architecture, the culture is amazing also because the Jenz's are getting so much into cultural tourism, right? Hampy would blow up for sure. Then right now in Northeast, of course, Megalia is blowing up, but then there are very there are other destinations also that are not tapped in. So northeast is one area that would be covered for sure.

Right? And uh if I talk about Himachel also there are very small villages that are still untapped. There are some very famous destinations like tanji be and all of that but there are very small villages that are not tapped. So I'm pretty sure people would want to go there for sure. Um in our world of tres we keep having uh the next big trek uh coming across to us every once in 2 three years. Um we started with the rupun wreck which was a huge um uh popular which became went on to become very very popular. Um then we had the Kashmir great lakes. There was absolutely no trekking in Kashmir and suddenly uh we went brought the trek out and trekking in Kashmir exploded. Uh tourism followed. They both happened together uh in 2011 2012. Um and if I cut to today uh la the last year the year before that we had this trek in the Pinch National Forest um Pench National Park in Madhya Pradesh which is not

really known as a trekking destination but the way the track took off amongst our people was almost similar to that Kashmir great lakes how that tre uh took off within a year we had almost 2,000 people going on an obscure trek in the heart of Madhya Pradesh which is not known for trekking So trekking does this it um it brings out new places that suddenly catches people's uh imagination. >> Interesting question. The way we look at it is that from each metro destination there are places people are wanting to travel to on a frequent basis and most of them don't have a five-star hotel. Uh let's take for example a location such as Karjat which is within 2 hours from Mumbai. I think even today there's only one five-star hotel in that location. Um and there's immense amount of demand for that location. So we see a lot of hotels coming up now and that will get developed in the next couple of years.

Now similarly let's take a location around Delhi. If you look at the entire Bhimtal belt and Mukteshwar, you will not find any five-star hotel in that area. So again a great location for more properties to come up. If you look if I take Bangalore now around Bangalore if you look at locations such as Chik Mangalore there's a lack of decent hotels in that location as well. So um like this if you look at each of your metros tier one cities and where people are traveling to there is an opportunity for hotels.

I think one more interesting aspect could be in order to fast forward some of the the the tourism activity and getting inbound is really the premiumization of our luxury trains. >> Yeah. >> Uh because we have the palaces, we have the beautiful you know forests etc. The train goes through them. >> Think about Europe rails right? I mean in Europe like Swiss rails and the other the interconnectivity between the countries etc is seamless frictionless and good quality. No, but I was thinking more like uh >> even super luxury. Even super luxury.

Yeah, even super luxury wheels with this kind of premium crow. >> Absolutely. >> That will help get those charters. We've had those. But the >> uh what we were saying, Nikil, is if you wanted to fast forward this and get more quality, >> very high paying >> Yeah. >> one of the ways to do it fast >> Uhhuh. is to do the best-in-class trains uh like the rest of the world has. So the latest one is uh you know >> like China trains >> China did Thailand even your >> but those are not profitable ventures like even the Chinese government till date has not been able to break even on that it requires a lot of capex >> oh you mean let's say taking highspeed rail projects and all that experience like orient experience >> oh you mean like that Maharaj train Maraja Express Palace of but taking it to a very different level because >> we have the palace proposition to support it. We have a lot of culture to

support it. So I did recently a travel on uh something called the Dolcevita Orient Express in Italy. >> You get off in Venice or you get off in Sienna and then you are on your own. You go walk around and you come back to the train. >> Right? But if we had all this traditional Rajasthani dances in Rambak palace or you know the lake in Udapur or uh the palace experience, the culture, the you know the artisans working out there, >> it'll be like very very classy uh proposition which no one else has.

>> Interesting idea. >> Absolutely. Think about we were just talking about it. Think about like a Mediterranean cruise for five countries. Yeah, >> five nights, >> right? >> Right. Why can't there be a five city tour in Rajasthan for example? I'll tell you one again going back to the earlier sort of discussion. Right. So what is that you can do really if you if you start thinking about the how part. So what I think is by and large clear what needs to be done on product improvement etc. One of the bottlenecks again you know as part of our you know sort of industry effort initiative as part of associations we keep going back to the the tourism board and various other >> authorities is the biggest bottleneck is that travel happens to be state subject >> and there is a gap between the central vision and the execution when it comes to at the state level.

>> Right. Right. And fundamentally unless we solve for that >> because see otherwise what happens is that the vision gets uh I think there is relatively speaking lot more clarity at the top >> that you know tourism industry could be big massive you know future growing at 10% etc etc but when it comes to how are we going to do it everything boils down to respective states have to execute it on the ground right there could only be just soft guidance from the top now there it becomes a function of what is my priority priority at the state level so if to your point if let's say in Goa doesn't think that tourism is the priority it shouldn't be true maybe from people perspective but state should not be thinking like that >> but if they were thinking to put it on the other side thinking top priority then I would be investing in taking the

infrastructure to completely different level. Experience too and infrastructure is one part of the experience. You can bring in a lot of the software elements to it and and do it. Hygiene included, safety included, security included, solving for you know whatever local issues, the cab issues, all of that because everything adds up right. you we have we have reached to a level of building airports there we might have a different problem there we might have to do actually if we really have to grow from a domestic tourism standpoint functional airports not necessarily very fancy >> that the government is trying with the grand scheme >> it's trying it's trying right but but but the good example of that is that the private parties are involved private sector involved and making the difference right so once you solve this these kind of so I was I was talking about reforms right Yeah, >> these are some of those fundamental reforms that are required, >> right?

>> Public private partnership more and more open up the sector more. >> I think this you both agree on privat privatize everything more including UNESCO sites. >> We agree on almost >> in terms of management absolutely almost everything >> you know I I personally don't think privatization is the answer for everything. Of course, there is 100% privatization in operating hotels, airlines, etc. A lot of the last mile connectivity, whether it's cabs or whatever.

I've thought a lot about this and I think when I compare my experience of visiting other countries, particularly the developed countries where we all tend to have such an such an amazing experience, we can take things for granted. We can walk the streets. we can rely on the service providers blindly and so on versus those of let's say an international traveler coming to India and of course the challenges that we have all heard of them facing I think the contrast lies not in the travel infrastructure and travel services that exist or not I think it is a lot more about just who we are as people it is about our civic sense it is about what we consider as versus what we say right we take a lot of pride of course in our jard I think our jard is our biggest strength and our biggest weakness because the same jar translates into a lot of this unpredictability for someone who's not

familiar with that jard right someone's coming from a different country so you know whether it is relying on Google maps walking a street having a pavement to walk on um not worrying about getting cheated by a service provider by an experienced provider the safety of some of these establishments etc. I don't think it can it can be a matter of governance or policym as far as the travel industry is concerned. Of course, it's a different thing and it's it's you know in my in my view as a citizen I do feel that we as a population need to be dealt with more strictly for us to you know develop the civic sense which would otherwise be common which will invariably ripple out to anyone who's dealing with us in our atit etc. So it's a lot more about that.

You know our roads have gotten much better but and you know our railways have gotten much better but if in the same mandhara train a bunch of people are still littering a bunch of people don't know that it's their responsibility to leave the washroom clean obviously an international traveler traveling in the same train will not consider bharat to be great infrastructure. So I think it's a lot more about us and how we operate as opposed to privatization or big governance changes. for real impact to happen.

>> See, we need to think bigger. >> We can't think Bombay Goa anymore. >> Right now, the right now as a country, we really need foreign currency. >> The government has this FCN FCNR scheme where people are earning 20 25% bringing foreign capital into India. >> If we can get more capital in, I'm saying even from 10 million foreign tourists, it doesn't go to 100, it goes to 20 is a big change. We're talking about all that needs to change in order to make that happen.

>> Yeah. But then we have to think a little bit beyond. We have to think cruise tourism from Bombay all the way till the tip of Keral >> and then it's like a three four destinations. This is how it happens globally. This is what people are looking for. Just sitting on a cruise and going to Goa is not going to make it work. So anything that we do and that's why Rajes is right that if it is a state subject only the moment many states change by the time you reach >> with different ideology different political you know priorities >> it doesn't get done it falls somewhere in the cracks so >> so you're saying make tourism a center subject >> central subject it has to it could be both so when I said you know if you recall that infrastructure status that is center industry has to be done at a state level but some of the things like marketing campaign for destination India has to

come from the center >> right >> that cannot come every state is going and marketing their own state >> because you're promoting marketing India >> you're promoting country right >> and India spent.5% of GDP on tourism if this.5 were to become one we can get so much more revenue inflow into the country. >> Absolutely. Forex the all the studies show that for every one rupees spent in this sector the gross economic value that gets added is 3.25 25 >> right?

>> So I think one of the ways to do it >> if you focus on foreigners it might be more >> it could be more because now you know look at the way the dollar or Swiss franks or euro has evolved or pounds uh >> India has become actually more attractive and cheaper. >> It's become attractive and cheaper. Absolutely. I tell you another angle >> with that even the domestic crowd because rising middle class disposable income increasing more people are spending spending behavior is changing in new India is becoming aspirational you would stop the leakage of forex because you would not go outside.

So both ways right so you can bring in forex but you can also stop leakage right you know otherwise people will continue to keep going out >> because if it easier for people to take the pocket or a Bangkok flight with e visa no hassles on visa and I'm going to get hotel cheaper than Goa >> and there's going to be a lowc cost carrier connectivity >> why would I not go there Yeah, I had written this down somewhere.

>> Yeah, >> India is becoming a great country to travel from but not the best country to travel to >> into >> even via the airports and all of that. >> Yeah. So, >> which kind of doesn't make sense. >> Yeah. But but if you have to bring in the focus, you have to bring in the focus again back to saying I want Indians also to explore India, >> right? And therefore I therefore there is you know this has to be P 0 >> in terms of just uh improving every aspect of it. Sorry this was flying from you.

>> Thank you. >> Right. So um and also attract inbound. >> Right. >> Right. Both. >> What would be your other points? You said make tourism a center subject. You're the prime minister. Rajes is the prime minister of India for 5 years. What else will you change to make the number change from 10 million foreign tourists coming in to 100? So actually lot has been has been covered already but um you know and I've given you one very big sort of bottleneck how and all but if you really have to uh you know look at one more aspect which is if you start to if you're sitting in Germany for example and if you have to start looking at discovery and even the booking experience forget about coming to India and all of that >> because because of the lack of digitization on the uh supply side including all the experiences and the activities that you could potentially do

you just cannot discover anything and you cannot just seamlessly >> for example like hotels are digitized >> yeah I'm not talking about hotels I'm talking about let's say experiences so all these sites >> you know what kind of digitization have we done on the back end you know today we are trying to do it so let's say make one trip has launched tours and attractions kind of thing. Our first port of call became more the international destination because there's plug-and-play inventory available, content available, inventory available, right? If I have to book a park for example, >> why is nobody on the private side doing it?

>> Private side you can do it but government has to open it up. >> The parks are not private. >> Government has to open it up. No, no. Take Taj as an example, >> right? We we this is the simplest problem to solve. Discovery, Bookability, Kotu for example, take any site, any experience. >> So the solution for that is first privatize them. So the inventory >> digitization. Exactly. Yeah. First privatize and then do the digitization. Solution is digitization. >> Right. >> Because then only you can solve for the reach. Right. >> Right. you know that is one big thing that I think needs to happen among various things on again in the uh you know sort of overall experience bucket >> right what else >> right and then I think um one of the other things that you can do is to again you know sort of building on the the industry status point or let's say when you were talking about let's India is trying to do the functional air force the reality is that part of these this ecosystem

um the economics don't work right so the the the industry let's aviation industry for example it's a good example of that right so earlier we had lot many international carriers coming in >> bilaterals right we opened up bilaterals etc but they they were coming in because the Indian carriers were not able to build and scale profitably >> right because it's really a long-term so capital investment required so what is that I I can potentially do to showcase the same opportunity if the money is coming into India in various other sectors I'm talking about foreign investment why can't there be money a capital inflow that can happen in even in aviation sector for example now whether it is domestic institutions because today domestic institutions have got a lot of funds as well Or it is when I talk about institutions I'm not necessarily saying mutual funds and all I'm also saying banking system right or

if there is you know non-Indian capital that needs to be come with whatever strings that you want >> allow FDI >> allow to an extent right whatever you airline industry >> do why not because you need more >> they have increase the cap I think right like indigo has >> indigo has indigo indigo does have but indigo So the predominantly Indian institutions right? >> Lufansza's second highest intercontinental market is India. >> Yeah. So why can't now Air India will take some time to turn around is a different story altogether.

>> But I'm just saying let's say even for domestic aviation, right? >> The low cost, the >> mosquito bat, >> right? >> Low cost carriers. >> Now if you look at London as a city example, there are city airports. There are no strings attached. New York there are city airports no strings attached functional airports in and out and that solves for the economics for the airlines right because otherwise at the cost is prohibitively expensive >> like why can't Bangalore keep the old city airport >> why not absolutely >> there is there no reason for that >> safety safety could be I don't know I >> like Bangalore used to have a airport in HL which we used to all fly and then the new one came the old one shut >> was Hyderabad pit >> is it safety?

>> Delhi has done it quite cleverly. I think the >> Delhi the new airport now is coming like beyond greater so because they were next to each other. So they are effectively terminal 23 Delhi is not necessarily but Delhi has enough cap capacity but >> on the privatization of airport government has done a good job. It's last year job when it comes to infrastructure. I think the progress India has made on infra in the last 10 years is equal to the preceding 50 years put together. I I I don't know whe is 30 is the right number or 50 absolutely but massive improvement I've done some of those travel Delhi Jaipur Jaipur Savipur or Lacnau till Agra I even state the art I mean there's progress that has happened I'm saying a lot more can be done and and which is the point I was making earlier see I think whatever is at the control of center the budget gets

allocated execution happens Actually road infrastructure is another very good example. >> You know suddenly now people have started including the inbound traffic enjoying Delhi Agra and Delhi Japur because there are new highways and a beautiful Delhi Mumbai will be you know also very soon will be like 100% complete etc. There like many examples >> Mumbai you know this atal setu changed >> changed right >> actually Mumbai is an exception I think fnavas credit where it's due has done a great job with the infra like I've seen it in the last 5 years so many big new projects >> coastal road coastal road I mean otherwise one would say no I'm not coming this side of town and I'm not going to south Mumbai but >> last couple of months I've been going to Alibag a lot for foundry >> and >> that atu bridge I've taken many times it's not bad at Not at all. No, even coastal link it is it's a game changer and likewise Delhi also has a lot of infrastructure and hopefully Bangalore will come longer to get on the atu after

once you're on it the everything that happens >> like if I take the roro to reach my like we have this college kind of campus in Alib. It's called outpost. It takes 2 hours and 15 minutes. If I take the road through atu it takes 2 hours and 30 minutes. >> There you go. >> It's not bad. Not at all. But once you're off the highway, >> Yeah. then it's bad. >> Then it's bad, right? >> Yeah. But at least this is there. >> No problem. No, there's no question about it. Therefore, there is >> So there is a tremendous amount of tremendous change that is happening. But I think we need to >> think bigger.

>> Yeah. This is all in the context of the opportunity or the future that you see >> because Ali is not the next Goa. I know Mumbaiers get upset when I say that. I would love to see it. >> There's nothing there. >> Yeah. There's nothing there. But that society is getting gentrified very quickly. I see a lot of big houses. So maybe it can become Long Island. I'm not saying Goa, but it can become what a Long Island is to New York. >> Can't it? >> I think that it that is possible. But for it to become a hub for >> five hotel projects and uh you know those that infrastructure within Alib.

We have over 100 villas in Alib and Alibag as a market is something we've seen really develop over the last 10 years. Um I think we've only scratched the surface in Alib. 100 100 villas means close to 500 rooms there. That's roughly two big hotels already. And we feel confident that we can easily get another 200 odd 300 odd properties there which will be roughly five hotels. So lot of potential in that market. uh definitely see it becoming a long island to Mumbai >> but a lot of people are building hotels >> we have one >> we are running one we have I don't know how many home stays doing very well >> how is this homeay business how big how much of an opportunity is it for a 25year-old again >> for a 25 year old to have it as a start it's a great opportunity it's not that capital intensive M >> and um you know if you the good thing is

we have done it as a hub and spoke model the Taj hotel in the neighborhood takes care of your villa so you have no security issues you don't need a separate gardener you don't have you know you also get some income out of it right then you can use it for your own private use like maybe a couple of weeks in season and a couple of weeks in offseason or even longer So I think from that point of view lot of people in India are moving into that segment like a couple of hundred million who want to have a second home or a third home like you said you are you have a home in Bangalore Mumbai you spend a lot of time in Goa in your in your house but what happens when you're not there >> if it's empty and you want somebody reliable to take care of it >> then it's a very good business for any youngster um 25 year old venturing out uh you don't have to build a fullfledged

hotel for that matter. Give us the real numbers. What does it cost to bring one villa live on Sta? What does the owner make in year one? And at what point does an owner decide they no longer need you? Will you ever explore a franchise model? Yeah, for a homeowner it's a great great outcome. Why do I say that? Because I I am personally I mean not me but my family has a home in Lunabla for the last 20 odd years and basically that P&L looked negative from year one. We were paying expenses to maintain that property, the staff salaries, the local community that you need to pay taxes for. So there were multiple other expenses that are constantly acrewing and you're paying for it. Uh while in terms of enjoying that home, you're barely going there maybe once or twice a year. So at the end of the day, you have a negative P&L

of roughly 1 to two lakhs per month. That becomes a positive P&L of 2 to three lakhs per month. Why does that happen? Because once the home starts getting used on a regular basis, all your expenses are taken care of and you're getting a certain amount of revenue out of it which you can either reinvest in the property or you're actually just accumulating profits. >> What does it cost to bring one alive to statist? >> Most of these homes, they're beautiful homes that people have built. It's been a labor of love. What is required is a certain transformation so that they're guest ready. What do I mean by that is they might need certain standardized crockery linens little bit of maintenance work that needs to be looked into with respect to uh AC's being fixed or uh CCTV cameras being put in certain parts of the exteriors of the house. All of that accumulated will be an expense of anything between 8 to 12 lakhs. That amount is recovered within 4 to 5 months

by the homeowner. In theory, I agree with you 100%. But Airbnb does not seem to be working out in that way, right? In the US. >> No, I just spoke about the model that we have on Arma. It has worked quite well. >> Isn't Airbnb the same model? >> Airbnb is different from service point of view. It's different here. >> You can ask Taj Holiday Village or Auada or whatever exotica to come do a barbecue for you. You can ask them to do space, alternative accommodation, but >> you could go to the hotel and have breakfast, you know, it's not it's the the experience >> service.

>> Yeah, we're adding service because that's what our core business is. Our core business is to provide service. >> I'll tell you another reason why >> because this is only it's also about use cases, right? Uh if there is um you know, Gen Z is being talked about as very important future consumer cohort, right? Like do you see Gen Z going for the high-end trips like like Europe for example? >> Honestly when we started with Europe we never thought that Jenz's would be going for that because of course you know after a certain point of time you start earning a certain amount and that's how you uh take bigger trips expensive trips but we see a lot of Jenz's taking the Europe trips and the expensive trips. I went to Masai Mara recently. There was so many Jenz's right because millennials they saved and then they spent on the travel. Jenz's are like give me EMI options, give me like tell me if I can pay via credit cards. They don't care about money. They feel it's an

investment more than like anything. you know if you give them an option up you then you buy a new sofa for 50,000 or you take a trip for 50,000 they like I'll I'll take a trip right because they feel it's an investment it's for their self-rowth apparently right so that's how the trend is changing >> so have you made yourself more um compatible to this EMI and all of >> yes we have we have credit card options we have EM options we do fake weddings on the on the trips we do fake resignation parties on the trip so we are really focusing that how are we making people's experience worth it?

>> What do you mean fake resignation and >> like it's like it's like you know people will just we'll have one day we will just have a whole whole setup wherein people will be wearing office clothes and they will have a resignation letter and we'll be doing certain activities and all of that. So we we do that. We did like a fake haldi recently and all of that. So we do that like and you know uh for example we are also doing this um bachelorate fake bachelorate wherein we going to do fake haldi fake mahindi and all of that and there'll be one bride one groom randomly they'll pick up chits and they will become bride and groom right so these things people love it >> with the uh and this is now I'm talking about business cities right you know all the urban cities of Bangalore, Delhi, Bangalore or Bombay, Kolkata, Hyderabad, Chennai, the group getting together and celebration use cases have gone through the roof. These are all homeays,

>> you know. So, festival celebration, the birthday celebration, the any occasion like they they need an they need an excuse uh for a lack of a better word for for you for you to just get together because you get a lot of flexibility. >> You got a lot of flexibility there. hotel you will not get flexibility. You you need to have music. I mean there are the needs are very specific limited but specific >> occasions is a massive reason to come stay together at villas. We look at every stay as a mini event taking place because there's always something being celebrated when people are coming together whether it's birthdays, anniversaries, even intimate weddings or a corporate offsite or school reunions taking place. So there's always an occasion that brings people together and it's it's it's a small group of very close folks that come together to celebrate and actually a big need that we have to deliver to is how do we how

do we create an entire experience for them. So for example, if it's a wedding for just 10 to 20 people at one of our properties, we need to be able to get the entire ecosystem together, whether it's the decorators, whether it's a bartender, whether it's a caterer. So all of that needs to be brought together. Uh we see about 20% of our bookings are taking place for non-family stays. What I mean by that is primarily taking place for corporate offsites or for these small intimate weddings in particular.

>> Last weekend we had Malahar NC >> at Exotica and exactly that happened. What you saying? >> Yeah. >> People came in groups of 10, 12, 14. >> The event was sold out. The best of cultural experience. >> What is Malad? That's was the name of the event that because it comes from all that musical performances >> and it was just outstanding. I have to say I it was the first time for me I was very impressed. I thought we could bring it to other parts of India.

>> Absolutely. >> Which is your favorite Taj hotel amongst all the best hotel in your mind if you had to retire in one? >> Uh very difficult question. There's so many of them which are so iconic but one which is consistently been rated now uh worldwide on Trip Advisor uh as the best hotel in the world is Rambak Palace in Jaipur. >> Jaipur >> I've been there >> for me it was always Lake Palace because of the setting in the lake. Uh but the ratings of Rambag have been just brilliant.

See lake palace or ome there but again connectivity to jodpur is different than to jaipur >> totally >> and the wedding experience that you get in the lawns of Rambag >> multi-purpose hotel multi-purpose hotel yeah >> why doesn't I why doesn't like your hotel company get into managing weddings end to end >> managing what >> weddings end to end >> we do that >> like wedding planning >> we don't need many things outsourced are better that there are wedding planners because they are professionals at that.

Our job is very good when it comes to catering the food, the service, the you know everything else. It's like we we as a sector got out of doing wedding cards because there are professionals who do cards in a way that we can never do. It's all these things have become a business in itself. >> So MMT owns Red Bus. >> Yes. When it comes to train bookings, bus bookings, IRCTC is government. >> How does that compete with MMT? Do you think that's the right way to go? Like this booking portal should be government or private?

>> Oh, that's a loaded question. Uh because that's the only government online distribution platform, if you will, right? >> Yeah. >> Uh and in many ways, uh and this is a public company now, right? ICTC is also a public company. >> Yeah. That is profitable. It is profitable. It's highly profitable actually. And IRCTC is the one who's um distributing it further. See for the longest time the rail booking in fact you have to give it to ISRCTC or Indian railways to if I take my mind back to when make my trip was set up in 2000 internet was non-existent. In 2005 it started taking off. Two things happened.

One was IRCTC. A lot of credit should go to IRCTC and two was lowcost carriers coming in. Ed Deken was if you recall right you know Captain Gopinat >> yeah Bangalore >> Bangalore and our first direct sort of API connectivity was with them no intermediary uh you know sort of content hosting platform for them a lot of the traditional airlines have it so I think it's a legacy and they started doing it and they did a fantastic job uh for railways and then much later they started to open up right so today if you look at market share of the uh or starting with let's say the online penetration of rail bookings >> it is the highest 87 odd%.

>> Right because the offline experience of booking rail was very painful. So customers obviously you know naturally sort of uh very far shifted to that and if you break that into then ICTC versus all the other OTAAS including make gobo red bus others exigo and the others all of us put together will be 15 20%. 80% is ISCTC. So I'll tell you the you know all of us what we are trying to do you know okay maybe I can speak for myself is more the customer acquisition this is a new customer acquisition channel for us because the economics don't really work right because of course from their point of view they have to maximize in any case they've got 80% direct share so why would you really need there's hardly any in that sense level playing field it is just a question of maybe on product you can do better on exper experience etc and you get new users you get hinterland

you get tier three tier four a lot of the because India travels like if you that way pan India if you would look at it every possible sort of demographic India travels on rail right or has been traveling on rail uh so you get new user acquisition you end up sort of acquire those customers and then offer these services because those consumers are also upgrading and they can also buy accommodation maybe the budget accommodation and stuff like that. >> Yeah. >> So, what are you saying? Is are you saying it's a good thing? It should be private.

>> I'm saying it is legacy. I'm not saying actually I'm not trying to even judge because now I don't know what is possible, right? Because you already have that and you're a in all fairness it's a public listed company now, >> right? So, it's not necessarily like a 100% owned government unit also, >> right? >> Yeah. And I think it's working fine unless there is uh you know really a massive sort of potential disruption that happens that can happen but uh otherwise they're just operating independent company now effective.

>> If you had a son who was 25 and he wanted to be a travel agent say four out of 10 travel bookings are still offline would you recommend that? Is there an angle a 25year-old can take applies to both of you? Is that a business opportunity? I think so. Uh there's an opportunity although my son might want to do different stuff. >> Where would he sit between MMD, between the hotel business and between things? >> The opportunity. >> Yeah. >> I think hotel business obviously >> of course.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's boring. You know this make my It's like finding just travel solutions. >> There's nothing. Hotel is a happening place 24/7 365 days. So if your son were to start a hotel business, what son or daughter? What what category would you put him on? You can only pick one. Would it be boutique? Would it be luxury? Would it be affordable? >> Where in the world is very important? >> India. >> India. So in India I would say the opportunity going forward is uh strong in experiential boutique small size properties 25 to 50 25 to 50 room hotels. We have a lot of tier 2 tier three cities which can't have 100 150 200 300 rooms or go very large.

>> And how would you put the price point of this? Is it 5,000 a room, 15,000? 50,000? >> No, it could go up to 10,000. >> You're saying average to 10,000. >> Average to 10,000 because your luxury sits at 20 plus and your budget and midscale sits around 4 5,000. So double of that but 50% of the luxury. Is there a business opportunity in what Retesh tried to do like buying small unbranded because most of India is unbranded? Can you if I were 25 can I buy not buy but make a deal with 10 hotels paste a brand on it standardize?

>> A lot of them are doing it. Retesh did a great job. So is THBO is trying to do the same. >> Threebo and five. So many have but you know that quality of accommodation and consistency is not that easy and I think uh we have to be very mindful of u fire life safety issues. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> One bad incident can blow up everything and many people tend to neglect uh the regulatory >> where does the liability sit. See if I were to go to 10 unbranded hotels the brand >> and I'm doesn't matter your name is on the building whether the liability is with the owner or >> but who li >> I think it's with everyone the people who are running it without proper licenses is also >> owner and running both effectively because you're also running the place >> I would be lying if I if I knew the quantified value of safety per per room safety certainly costs in terms of building the hotel and to a lesser

extent but certainly so in terms of operating the hotel because a lot of these you know fire life safety measures have to be part of the structure of of the hotel and it is undoubtedly true that it is challenging in this segment to convince owners and prevail upon owners for them to solve for for such things and I think the reasons for that are obvious. I mean a as far as the the physical readiness aspect of it or the or the the the structural readiness aspect of it is concerned it is additional investment and and you know people don't always understand um the equation of you know a very low probability but a high impact event still together adding up to something that needs to be taken care of. and they just tend to see the very low

probability of that event and therefore tend to kind of ignore cut corners. You know, obviously all of these are measures which are under the hood which a customer wouldn't immediately notice the absence of unless unless god forbid it is needed in the moment. And therefore, of course, it's a very common tendency, unfortunately, for developers, for owners to to to not give it the importance it deserves. There is a whole lot of education that we and everyone else in the industry will need to do um for people to start according it the importance it deserves.

Second, of course, there are there are genuine challenges of about you know information availability as well as clarity on the statutory aspect of it which is different from the structural readiness because of course a you need to have stuff in place and b you need to then get the right clearances etc. That part is hard because the laws just vary a lot you know depending on where you are operating a hotel and also you know getting on top of those licenses paperwork etc is not straightforward for an average Joe hotel owner developer um building in a city for the obvious reasons I mean we all know how some of these things can become very challenging and full of red tape in the Indian context um so I think all of these things combined have cast that shadow historically on on this segment. Uh but yeah like I said I think it is the responsibility for all the you know professional players operating uh

in the industry to educate all the stakeholders about the importance of it and it's a timeconuming process. It's part of the evolution of the space. >> How do you deal with situations that come up in that sense? Uh yes, I mean you need uh you need years of work behind getting a good uh name and reputation but one bad incident can actually take you back uh in a lot of good work that you have done and time to time we do have incidents where we believe okay this was not okay. uh what we try to do it's it is one in thousands but still a lot of attention has to go behind uh what went wrong for this person and what can we as an organization do to change their perception that they have had or the experience that they have had because uh intrinsically we believe um we don't deserve that experience to go to them uh it is not who we are and uh we go a long

way in trying to convince people saying okay come with us again. Uh don't pay us any money but see that we are not what the experience that you had and our experience is really truly different and we believe that um it is not what you had had. >> It is the most difficult industry to be in. Trust me when I say this that is why you will see a lot of travel companies coming in but they would go that easily because they will realize that it's so difficult to actually make people happy.

>> Yeah. >> Right. And then a lot of time things are not in your control. For example, there was this one trip wherein the the people came at 6:00 a.m. and the bus was supposed to come at 6 a.m. also but the bus came at 8:00 a.m. People were waiting for 2 hours. It was not a mistake. It was a vendor mistake. But of course we are the face. We will be blamed. So now no matter whosoever commits a mistake, the vendor, the hotel, whatever, we are at fault. Right? So you have to own up and then also compensate. Don't be afraid of that. If you're at fault, compensate in whatever form you can because this this is the stage when you are building your customers.

Uh but I think the other point there is that low touch would not work there. Little bit of a high touch will be required because you have to improve the experience of that. Right? standardization will come in in the property right where lot of these models were you know more low touch which means give you a brand from a consumer standpoint but the underneath promise was not necessarily standardized right so there so if you end up doing that I think there's an opportunity clearly I'll tell you the other area of opportunity since you talked about uh let's say 25 years old I think there's an opportunity in India like a think like get your guide or a clue kind of a model.

>> See again >> it's a tours and attractions uh you plan you plan you plan you can plan everything or you can be in that niche only focusing more on Gen Z needs because that's going to be the future. So just think about Gen Z study that their potential need and by the way nuance needs that they have right and then build your product on top of it >> right >> right you know so it could be basically it'll be entertainment and experience >> right same again you're coming back to experiential hotels >> experience and is a good one because hotel years are not traditional hotel years are not good at this you could actually a 25year-old could tie up >> yeah for some of those you know special properties special locations let's say gang talk >> right >> a visit to the China border a visit to the monastery hotel can also do it >> right >> but if somebody comes as a 25year-old

disrupts it takes the inventory for 5 6 8 10 hotels in just the northeast you know those seven sisters I think that could be a runaway success >> it's echo plus >> right >> it's not only >> he said he he'll make his son or daughter start a hotel experiential boutique 10,000 rupees average room rent 40 under 40 to 50 rooms what you said in the travel industry there is a opportunity to be a travel agent >> plus experiences >> what would be the travel agent angle >> that's the platform aggregation I would not build >> you won't build online >> I will curate the experience for let's say genz entertainment and experience now behind the scene it would be plethora of properties and experiences This >> you're saying you don't own the asset.

>> We were experienced and you create community in a way. >> Create community. >> The only problem we have is maybe our children don't listen to us. >> What do your kids do? >> My my younger one which is very close to 25. >> Has set up a sports management company. >> So he's a sports freak. He was a tennis player trained and he wants to be in that space. It's just a startup. So we'll see what how >> and the old one >> since you spoke about paddle. So he's a paddle champion also.

>> He's a paddle champion. >> He just won yesterday one trophy. >> What are you? >> I'm a local tournament. >> Even I have been playing tournament. >> There you go. So I will tell him by the way he was fascinated. I don't know maybe he read about you. So he was the one who was >> you know he didn't know that I was meeting you. He said oh my god you're meeting Nick and all. So you know you're popular with them >> clearly. Uh so I at some point we can I can make the connection whenever he's there. He he he was in Bombay two weeks ago. He was playing here also with someone.

>> So anyway because he's played tennis so paddle came naturally to him. Uh sorry what was the older older one is actually working he's in the corporate well he's with policy bazar >> so he did his CA and he went to ISP and then he started consulting and then now doing he's co-leading the a business >> not in travel not in travel nobody wanted to go which was great >> you don't follow successful parents in the same business >> competition >> I don't know >> no just I don't know but there's something in there I've never seen Like if you're entrepreneurs, you're entrepreneur then children do but if you're in corporate world although his is entrepreneurial the majority don't follow in corporate world.

>> You guys have a view on the protest of the last week. >> The protest of the last week um >> I don't have a view. I think it's not nice to be demoralized that uh that it's not a fair way of getting into good universities or colleges or your aspirations and um it's good that a step has been taken and something will be done about it.

I think the best part of this was I mean everything was like lot of action of all kinds but I think Nandan coming into the picture to solve some problem was the best outcome that at least I liked. >> Yeah. >> Right. Because if he comes into the picture he's been there done that working with government very closely >> I think he could have been the best guy that government would have thought. Yeah. >> I think that's the best outcome. Nandan is very good at uh solving >> trying to Yeah. trying to solve grand problems.

>> Grand problems. Absolutely. Yeah. Adhar is a great example of that. >> He's working on this new project like me and Nandan had gone to uh Switzerland recently. Nandan and Rohini. Not Switzerland where we were in the US somewhere. He has this new project around the fintet. He calls it fintet. Mhm. >> He's trying to tokenize I'll send you guys the white paper. It's very interesting. Tokenize asset classes across the board and across geography.

>> Oh my god. You should do it in India. >> Let's do it in India only. >> Oh yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Huge huge opportunity because the asset classes are not tokenized at all. >> I mean forget about tokenized. There's hardly any digitization. >> Yeah. >> It's a very interesting white paper. Even I I've read it a few times. I've had the person who is in charge of it explain it to me. Nandan has also explained it to me. I don't get it fully but it's something worth reading. >> I would love to read it. But amazing energy you know even now. >> Yeah. Actually not just Nandan. I think people speak about Nandan but they don't know Rohini like his wife is the it's a relationship where the wife is the more fiery >> wow really >> opinionated one >> and she's lovely but uh yeah I think Rohini's personality has not come out yet but very interesting very endearing person >> very >> it's done world of good to the country >> yeah Bangalore actually has a really good uh set of people

>> Nandan and Rohini being some of them. >> Of course, >> whenever I speak to like large hotel brands which are international now like Maria, they're becoming more a branding exercise where they charge a royalty fee for lending their name and asset light. Is that the future? I see that to be the model in real estate in many ways where real estate companies are marketing enterprises. They outsource construction. They outsource land aggregation. They outsource almost everything. But they're a sales engine and a marketing branding company. Do you think that's the future for large hotel chains?

>> Not really. Uh not in India. So we we are talking about India, right? India is still a very promoter-driven country and um in order to qualify for prime piece of uh any kind of real estate and to be able to participate in those RFPs need to find a model and even if you find a model and you have a hybrid I think you still need to have a right balance between uh real estate and if you wanted to call it asset heavy be an asset light. So we initially thought we'll do 50/50. We were 70 more than 70% asset heavy.

>> Right? >> Today be because we increased our footprint so much and we had exponential growth our asset heavy component is 30%. But still our 88% of the revenues come from the asset heavy because you need a lot of management contracts or a lot of royalty fees or a lot of uh income in form of uh other forms of branding fees to come to the level of oneowned asset let's say in Mumbai. So Tajmell Palace, Kulaba or Taj Lens, you're talking about like are they doing 500 cr revenue or are they doing 900. So Tajmell Palace is marching ahead towards 1,000 now. Okay, that hotel was built 122 years ago. Uh but Lensend is not that old. So you need to figure out, everyone needs to figure out what is the sweet spot for

them and what success means to them. for a youngster. >> If we don't do Lakshwad as a Tata Group company, who is going to develop Luxib? If we didn't do Goa in the 70s with the first property in Foragada or we didn't do Havalog in Andammans or we didn't do the God's own country Kerala, how would this all have come? >> Fair point. For a youngster, for a 25year-old because he doesn't have the capital required to build an asset. Do you think like commerce say a consumer brand like a t-shirt company can be built or a protein bar can be built on the back of content maybe a asset light hotel brand can be built on the back of content tomorrow >> we doing it all the time we call it maybe capital light even for a youngster that would work all he needs is at least to be able to give a one-year rental as collateral which is not that difficult

to raise for the first project, right? So, >> but he has to construct. No, >> he doesn't have to. He could be just renting. There are so many spaces which could be remodeled and converted into boutique assets or budget assets >> and has to just calculate what kind of revenue share is going to give from his total revenue and a lot of that has been happening for decades in restaurant business uh in all parts of India and I think we started it in hotels and now others are following >> right >> but we don't do that for you know we have it for Taj Mansh in Delhi.

>> Um maybe for also Taj Palace because that's how those tenders happened in the ' 70s. >> Um but normally this is an ideal brand for midscale to to budget or value proposition and that any youngster can do. >> I think that's an important point. Even we would help if there is a really aspiring youngster >> coming on board. We would help him become a hotel year entrepreneur and uh you know support that collateral so that we are not running that place directly.

They're providing the sales, marketing, procurement, you know, all other uh strengths that a brand brings. >> But he and his girlfriend or wife could be running that hotel, the first one, and the second one, and the third one, they start hiring people who run it for them. Yeah. No, absolutely. and and if I can make a distinction one right see one is let's say a brand like ICL and they had asset heavy owned asset model manage hotel model which could be a lease property you know developer invested and they remodeled it and they are managing it that is the second model now if you have to really scale it up then you can because you have the brand you can do a classical franchise model also right because then you will think through the franchise model and saying I'm lending my brand, but I also will have to take care of the SOPs and the processes and the quality and the talent, etc. like a full-fledged McDonald model, if you will, or a Starbucks model, if you will, right? And I think it's easier for an established

brand to do it. But if a youngster has to do it, then young it'll be really hard for a youngster to build this kind of a thing without completely staying high low touch >> on the back of the content, right? It's very hard, right? Because you don't have a brand. saying hight touch plus content. >> High touch plus content. >> So um I agree with them entirely and again it's it's an often misunderstood aspect of our business that we are a light touch franchiser. And this is one of the things that I was alluding to when I said that you know our business model which has been customuilt for this segment is often misunderstood or ill understood by by other people in the industry.

um we actually do a whole lot more than what a typical franchiser would do. There are conventional brands in the higher segments who are pure franchisers who do the light touch franchising that is being spoken about here. And what they do for example is that their people would audit the hotel twice a year. Our teams audit the hotel every week. Their teams don't get involved in trainings. Their teams don't use any technology to keep a check on the quality of the property. They they don't analyze 150 data points on what's going wrong from an experience standpoint. They have not built custom technology for that process. We control the flow of the money. We control the flow of revenue and we are very closely hands-on involved in helping the hotel deliver the kind of experience we want them to deliver. So for the sake of simplicity and loosely our model is called a franchising model and our some of our other competitors have not done

justice to kind of doing more than just that. So I understand that we are also often seen as having just that model but it is a lot lot lot more evolved and deeper than just light touch franchising. I agree light touch franchising doesn't work >> and if he's starting one property he can be high touch >> easily and then once you learn so you've scaled it and this is what is happening in the by the way mid segment >> right you know I was giving an example of bloom for example >> right >> you know they are not necessarily asset heavy models at all they're like managed >> right >> and they are bringing the experience and potentially once that brand is established you can then do but you have to have you know quality focus in place like global good example and and you know and and Punit can validate that Vindam is a good branded global brand but lot of the franchise hotels for example >> almost 100% franchise >> almost 100% franchise hotels right and that that's a successful global model >> but it is not necessarily you know if

you want to keep it in saying I have an established brand and I will just monetize my brand and charge royalty and do nothing more than that that model will not work right because the experience on the ground will not be great. >> See last year we did three acquisitions. >> One is in integrated wellness >> where two youngsters >> they started a business called Atkantan. >> Yeah. >> Just near Pune. 10 years later they are not 25. They maybe got closer to 40 or >> or something.

uh we decided to acquire a majority but keep them in because maybe they needed the strength of our balance sheet and we took out all their debt. >> Yeah. and put enough money so that they can grow exponentially. >> Right? >> Same thing we did with Clark's ins which will all convert to ginger ginger brand or in the process of getting converted and finally with bridge. I mean bridge is a very nicely done brand in boutique uh luxury and there are some places you know I was surprised myself they have a bridge property in Java which gets an average rate of 70,000 rupees >> absolutely >> I yeah there are very few there's demand supply gap there and bridge has done a fantastic job >> done a fantastic job so >> if you go to vani you should go and stay at bridge >> it's other way it's the other way around where somebody was there We gave them the capital for all the hard work they

did. >> That's true. >> Left a lot of capital in the company so that >> they can further grow. >> They can further grow. >> Yeah. >> And gave them the mandate to do it. So we only operate through the board. It's not that suddenly all our colleagues who've been there for 30 40 years take over and tell them what what is to be done. >> Whenever I travel to the west now to New York or London or LA everything is a membership club. like a lot of hotels like uh Soho or Shea Margo or Maison Estel they're all fitting behind a filter.

I think in society the difference between the have and the have not has become so wide that the halves and have nots do not want to cross path in a way and when you put it behind a membership club many people are able to achieve that. What do you think of that as a business model? Say your boutique hotel which has 30 rooms in Bandra or 40 rooms. If it were a membership club and only a certain kind of audience would be allowed in, would that work?

>> We already have maybe the most successful business-wise private membership club chambers. >> But at a hotel level, I think >> but that's not to stay, that's more to do meetings. But for a hotel level, I think um so house is a very good one. Uh that has worked. But more from the membership fees point of view. I don't know if the hotel P&L how it works, I'm not so familiar with it. And whatever I've heard is not that great.

>> Um having said that, I think this could be a a good idea. It has yet been done in traditional hotel companies. >> But it could be done. >> Like if I start a hotel just for entrepreneurs. >> Yeah. Exactly. That is a very good example. But but where it has done work >> but we work is more to work not to stay. >> No, that is co >> not to stay. Yeah. >> Yeah. Not >> like co cool co- livingiving also is shared spaces. I'm talking a traditional hotel. >> Yeah. Traditional hotel. No the where the space where it is this model has worked beautifully is the golf courses.

>> Yeah. >> Membership. Right. Yeah. >> And elite membership >> and you can control it. It works beautifully. Again, demand supply gap >> also health you know wellness >> wellness also >> wellness driven in various key. >> You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. >> What would you pick between a membership club and a wellness hotel? If you could start one, what would you start? >> Wellness. >> Yeah, >> I tend to agree. India potentially wellness is is going to >> because of yoga and all that. >> Because of not only yoga and also people becoming health consscious.

>> Yeah. And if you start to think long-term like 10 20 years down is a huge opportunity. >> This is something I want to do. >> Yeah. >> Start a yoga plus western medicine mixture. >> Absolutely. >> With hotels. Nowadays when I pick a hotel, like I'll give you an example. When I'm in the US, one hotel I used to stay at had a sauna. The other one did not have a sauna. I started picking the one with the sauna just for that. And I'm thinking there are more people like me in the world increasingly. It is >> you're so uh right on that when I came to India and I stayed the first you know part of my journey at the Taj Willington news >> right >> and there was no sauna in there not because of me I realized that this is where people are moving and we put in a sauna a small one very successful >> in both the ladies and the men's uh you know vet areas and of course steam room is there And people love the steam because it helps you breathe uh you know

more freely because of the pollution issues. But the real health benefit you get from the sauna and not from the steam. >> Yeah, >> absolutely. You again you have and you must study that model if you're really keen you have flavor of that in golf clubs like if you see DF golf club in Gura it has all of it what you just mentioned. >> Yeah. >> And then different kinds of sers. >> Yes. I mean especially the Germanic countries >> and the Scandinavian it's a specialtity of theirs to have uh >> you know with herbs and with croers and with salt and with the Japanese >> the new thing is that dead sea salt on the walls.

>> That is also quite good. We put actually that in the Taj Mel palace hasn't worked that worked that well where you float right? >> No no no the the wall inside the sauna is that salt. Yeah, exactly. That's the salt s. >> By the way, the other segment the the customer segment which will be very I mean you know increasingly sort of using some of these places is corporate world >> for all the senior membership leadership offsite stay and all it's a combination of you know everything the wellness the activity experience you know good stay and so on. Dubai has you know uh >> room.

>> Exactly. >> I always stay there. >> Right. >> Exactly. >> It has a gym inside the room. >> Absolutely. There you go. >> Yeah. >> So you can do all kind of things. >> But they're struggling. >> And that is a membership. It's not easy. >> Yeah. >> I used to always live in Sydo like the guy at the reception used to speak Canada. He was from Bangalore. >> But the that guy has reached out for a job. >> The bell boy down has reached out for a job. the driver has reached out for a job. >> I think people are getting fired left, right and center in Dubai.

>> Yeah, >> right now is quite bad. critical mass I guess because this is capital intensive business right >> need critical mass but once you are able to do it I mean I'm actually surprised that Dubai it is not and maybe I don't know if it's a cultural thing or whatever I don't know but um in every country select cities you will have this premium crowd who would want to come in >> yeah last thing I wanted to ask you guys religious tourism is it still working a big part of travel in India price is resistant is doing very well.

>> One of the largest opportunities India is sitting on >> repositioning of Banaris. The lot of cleanliness has happened but it could be a worldass destination. >> Yeah. >> You know we have we would have almost all our brands in Banares in the next 3 years. We have a palace. We doubled the size of Taj Genesis recently. We have two hotels on the gart and a third one under development. So the bridge rama and avantika in between uh will be one more coming on the cindyagas. We have a tree of life.

>> Mhm. >> We have a ginger and gateway uh under development. So there is a lot happening >> and there is a circuit opportunity by the way. >> Yeah. >> Start thinking about a yodhya, paragra and vanessa. A lot of people went to a yodha because mahakum when a yodhya became f famous but I don't know how many people realize that actually 50% of that population went to arnasi also in on the same trip >> and you could add wildlife to it and go up right up till duda so if you reverse that itinary and went to >> you know uh the northern side so you could be in the duda national park path >> there's by the way an interesting trend on pilgrimage see Earlier pilgrimage used to be a very religious purpose trip that you know one has to go it the the the mindset is that I'm just going to do dan right that's the only that has changed and the demographic has changed that has changed to saying it's not necessarily only that

it's also culture and it is also history >> right >> right because people have it's not that you know you know see otherwise if you really see overall mahakum kind of scale and it's coming up in nasi and we'll see how it goes that a lot of people went for that real core purpose that I have to have a holy dip right but if you would now see the people continue to keep going to a yoda >> right right continue to keep going to paragas continue to keep going to vanasi of all age demographic >> right they're not necessarily only going for >> religious purpose right it's It's uh you know sort of either community because you're going together and also history and experience right so I think that is a new flavor that has got added and therefore huge potential in India huge honestly lately people really want us to plan spiritual travel now I'll tell you the catch you would think that the

classics would actually want to go to the spiritual destination but it's opposite they're like we are done with the spiritual ual destinations take us to Goa, plan a yacht party for us, right? They don't want to go to boring places, at least our audience, right? Because they've experienced it all, right? They've done that. Now they want to live their life. So >> like in a way the opposite is happening. >> Yes. Which is amazing like which is crazy honestly. Right. You would expect a jenzi to come and say that okay I want to go to Goa do all that. Of course, Jenzes would come and say that. But they are also interested in spiritual travel.

Wherein the parents, they are done over there. They've been doing it all their lives. Now they want to experience a different part of travel which they haven't experienced. But are like let's do a silent retreat. Let's do meditation thingy. And I'm actually shocked right because earlier people used to be like oh where are we going for clubbing? How are we partying and all of that? Now they are actually into spiritual travel. They want to understand more about cultural travel. They tell us, "Oh, this is an offbe destination. You want to go there." They don't want to be a kitemary now. So, earlier travel used to used to be about picking the checklist. Now, it's about selfexpression.

I'm done with my questions. Any advice, >> unique insights like >> around your industry around >> around what I can build in your industry >> or even if I can get a job in the hotel industry or >> in OTA. So one of the things that maybe maybe I can just kickstart that. So one of the things that as as make my trip in the make my trip strategy workshops that we've been going really deep into it is to understand the future and potential of this younger generation that how are they going to spend differently? How are they going to you know sort of travel differently and celebrate differently and therefore what could be the business opportunities around it and then uh what how can I acquire them potentially right and very focused therefore I was just giving that idea earlier that if I have to advise someone

young to build something I think needs to go deeper into understanding understanding this cohort and >> you're saying build for Gen Z. >> Build for Gen Z. >> That is the future. They have the spending power. >> They have uh they're confident and they want to experience. They don't want to save. Traditional mindset is gone. But the experiences could be very different like I want to go track right now. How many people older generation wanted to go to track in India? You're saying build experiences around that or real estate around that?

>> Everything. No, not real estate. No. Well, you can do both. >> Build a hotel where you can trek or build a trekking thing around a hotel. >> It depends how much capital do you have, right? I mean, depends how much resources do you have. But if you don't, let's say if you don't have resources and you want to do a techled thing, then I'll build a platform. M >> so uh in the last four five years we have specialized groups uh family groups uh seniors tricks uh these are very truly children's uh summer camps where we group them together. Now these groups are not definitely not as popular throughout the year for as a regular trick because we know that our country has begun to travel. We have seen this growth um uh right from exponential growth I have to say because we started with some 200 trackers um when we started per year now we hitting some 45,000 trackers in a year and we see

that there is so much more potential when it comes to trekking and even other travel. So uh we run tracks. We realize that there's a huge need for uh ancillary stuff like gears. Um we don't have uh the appropriate gear for many many things. Things like a waterproof socks we don't have in our country. Uh things like gloves we don't have. Um uh appropriate shoes. In the last few years we ran into huge trouble just getting threing shoes uh for our country because the catalan ran into a problem. there is no other place that we go to get trekking shoes. So, uh gears is a huge potential.

>> So, basically I think the small community events are working crazy. You know, the pottery classes, the soap making, the tile making, it's just a way of making people meet, right? So anybody who has a good network is good with people and is good with has like good brains in terms of the know how to sort of you know create the experiences can start with this like start with your own like recently um my friend started with this day drinking community right and people were there so like anything is working anything and everything is working right so I'll just say that the most random idea that you're getting right now would work. Do like a pajama party, right? People would come. So, anybody who's young and who wants to build something in a community space start with these small events in September. We are having a traitor

edition trips wherein all our 20 trips would have a traitor game happening like three traitors would be chosen and then every night they'll be shaky and everything and you know like we'll be murdering people. So we are doing that. So Buketto is not just about booking the hotel and the property and no it's about every single experience that we are providing them. And how did you come up with this traitors idea for example or how did you like you know why did you feel like someone want to explore like traitors >> one it's trending right so I think you have to be smart enough that whatever is trending do that and have the first mover advantage and you wouldn't believe we put the traitor carousel and it had like crazy reach and then every second person started doing it right so it's just the first mover advantage >> and I will just >> will you allow Jenzi to build on top of

MMT if somebody comes to you and says I will bring I will build a trekking gateway experiential company >> any day any day >> you give me your order flow I'll give you 15% like >> one of the thing that I've been doing I'll tell you absolutely one of the thing that I've been doing offlet is meeting young entrepreneurs and looking at the ideas what they're thinking in the travel tech space for example with this exactly this objective that they may not have resources and you would not take strategic capital but can I just give you resources and platform >> so you'll put capital also somebody comes >> absolutely like a entrepreneur within make my trip >> with the skin in the game and reward in the game >> how do they pitch it to you >> as uh coming to me and saying you know like a typical investor pitch right >> should they like email you or code is uh you can email me directly no problem >> we'll put your email id here we'll take it from you and put it here no problem

>> we also believe tres are deeply transformational uh right from day one this has been our thought behind trekking that it goes beyond going from point A to point B watching beautiful mountains beautiful scenery yes all that happens but uh doing a trick um is transformation it brings about a fundamental change in how you see yourself how you see the world how you see the environment, how you connect with people around you. So we knew that tres have this effect and at India hikes u we've gone a long way in ensuring that we build this experiential effect on people where they feel that transformation it is enhanced through our design through um through our track leaders who take you through the journey at every step who make you connect with the mountains who make you connect with uh the natural world around you. So there's been a lot of focus on doing this and um uh in in a way I would say India hikes is a different organization

because we place enormous amount of focus on this level of tricking uh which goes beyond just the logistics part of it. >> What else? Uh >> even >> I was just getting a new idea has nothing to do with whatever we discuss. I would take the 25 year old and tell him to do something which no one has done in India before >> like >> build a travel tech educational platform in which you teach people what is to be done >> what the opportunities are how you could access those and what all you need to give the content that he was talking about earlier and >> like a education platform to build >> education platform dedicated to travel.

Basically what we are doing today as a formal organization >> because what we are doing today is all learned from the west >> right >> I think the time is going to come where we are going to teach how it is to be done like in the it happened so we need a complete revitalization of our hospitality travel tourism education >> I think it's a good thought >> and that could be focused on how we going to sell the monasteries how we going to sell the spiritual sector how we going to get more tourists, how we going to, you know, those kind of skill sets, >> right? Why don't you guys set it up?

>> So, you need to have someone who could come in and spend bandwidth >> because we are so busy. See, I and let's not forget, see, there are all good things about travel and tourism, but it's never a dull moment, >> right? >> You know, our business, the disruptive cycles come more often than >> Yeah. I think probably as compared to any of the other sectors. >> Yeah, >> I'm kind of focusing today on how to get that 10 million number to 100 million >> and what Gen Z can start. >> Yeah.

>> See if if somebody is ready to dirty the dirty their hands then lot of it is actually physical >> right >> that you need to do. >> Even the marketing plan you guys said is a great idea. If somebody even if the government spends a 100 cr and it brings in 100 into x amount of value, it's crazy. >> Yeah, of course. >> It's huge. It's massive. See, you have to tackle it in a if the objective is to go from 10 to 100 and these are my four five key strategies and each of those strategies supported by four or five tactics, >> right? So one of the strategy could be I'm going to participate in all uh you know uh major areas so that we get the coverage. How do you get the coverage? You go to world travel mark, you go to ITB in Berlin, you go to uh Arabian Travel Mart in Dubai. You have a big stand in order to get to those stands. The second thing could be you get Indigo Air India Taj everybody to be

together then to be one in a hotel pavilion, one in a airline pavilion. Let's make it the large India pavilion. The second tactic could be to start doing your own event. Why can't India have a India travel market? It used there used to be one where you get all the buyers from the world to come in >> and have those three four five days or different days you know maybe you do something in Delhi, something in Banara, something in Agra uh the full week. Uh but these days I would say 3 to 5 days is more than enough. people will come and that is not a huge expense. Now that we have bat mandapam, now that we have yash bhumi, uh it is doable.

>> Absolutely. uh what used to be Pragati Maidan before maybe had become too small >> just like Vigyan Mahan became too small so we had to build bat madapam but now that we have that infrastructure we have the roads we have the metro we have something to show >> um >> actually the government has a lot of dead inventory like that stadiums auditoriums >> which are not utilized nor are they fixed somebody needs to privatize that as well >> yeah the the one the nail on the head that the state tourism properties >> everywhere every state has it >> why keep it and not privatize it >> and you know and that asset is available I'll tell you another opportunity is to building on pilgrimage use case again younger population the way they've started looking is the modern host not necessarily in the hotel space but alternative equal hotel again community can be a hook right you know you can build community and you can have that which is um not a

lot of capital required. Again, you can just refurbish the property and just remodel it to make a modern hostel. Now think about student host uh but more in the uh you know western world than India right you have all the amenities like if you know all campuses all great campuses have hotels and now even Paka and Ashoka have modern host right >> can you just build those hotel hotel host privately >> and the pilgrimage use case will come as long as they are clean hygiene safe and modern and functional >> right >> right you use those hosts too. I used to run a hostel in in Paris.

>> There you go. >> It was called Akai Dejan or Frost. So whenever July August everything will close and then you have all these tourists coming in, backpackers in those days it was French Franks. So 100 French Frank you got a bed you stayed in the normal hostel but we have some very nice campaigns. And I just thought of this Rajesh they upladesh you can do small, medium, large, extra large you know for the 25 year old, 35 year old, 45 year old, 55 plus in different price categories.

>> So we have all these wonderful campaigns uh said incredible India for outside of India for the people within India. >> Totally. travel within India also has a lot of potential because we realize that beyond the few 10 15 very well-known destinations in our country uh our country doesn't travel within our country um and in fact India hikes is thinking of a new division called as unexplored India where uh we want to take people through these unexplored destinations and make them experience the place for what it is um the scenery the culture the food and these are places which are not your regular tourist um things that we know of the moment Indians get some money they the next destination they think of is Vietnam or Thailand or somewhere else it's always outside India and we question saying why is it not within India um so India has huge potential for Indians and we believe that is a place

that needs to be tapped >> and that could include various segments which could be spiritual and cultural, which could be business, which could be skiing, which could be beach. >> SM traffic huge in India. Hostels traffic if it is function. So where does SNM traffic go today? They go to near railway station, near bus station, near you know cluster of what where there's market, right? There's a wholesale market and all and people check in there. very average experience because you can't you know if one is of course the price point etc but can you just just modernize that potentially I think huge opportunity but then you have to dirty your hands because that is brick and mortar stuff right that is I mean you of course can use technology or whatever but but it is lot of it is brick and mortar stuff that you have to do it but but I think the need of the R in our country because there is so much of fragmentation

of this echo infrastructure in our country. You can use those existing you don't have to do completely green field projects >> but with the resources you can modernize that you can pick up one city and modernize that you know and and like do a pilot >> and then build on top of it and I'm sure you'll get capital right because they will be profitable it's just a obviously the gestation period will be there whatever is the gestation period right >> but it can be profitable but it is not for a lack of better word it's a sexy tech business Right.

>> Yeah. By the way, I loved salad. >> Yeah, >> absolutely. Awesome. >> You're vegetarian? >> No, I can have chicken and all, but I can I'm >> This recording and all is finished. No, >> no, no, it's going on. You can keep talking. >> Okay. Um, no. In terms of um getting to 100 million tourists, I think, can you imagine what it'll do to our economy? And like you said, if it's not 100, it's only doubling from the 10 to 20.

>> Yeah. >> It's crazy. The impact is crazy. >> The impact is massive. It's massive on jobs >> directly and indirectly. Every job created in this sector creates 8 to 10 jobs indirectly. You know, airport reps, limousine drivers, uh you know, your milk suppliers, vegetable suppliers, etc. >> Mhm. >> U so it'll create jobs. It will get foreign exchange. It will give you the soft power of the brand. >> India uh more importantly the cultural tolerance. The world is going through a very turbulent thing and people don't understand what each culture or nation brings to the table and um my life my career has been spent very successfully in building east west >> right >> right so I never lost sight of where I came from when I was in west and today living here in 8 and a half years I've

never given up what I learned from the west and the great things out there. So I think the the strength lies in bringing people, cultures, value systems together with an open understanding and um if it has worked very successfully for a hotelier like me, it would work even more successfully >> uh for people from other walks of life. So Korea is a big opportunity we've been sitting on.

>> It's time to do something now. >> Korea has done this well right soul culture. >> You know some things got very popular. So just like Bollywood >> became very famous from India including getting a statue of Yas Chopra in Inter. Uh similarly this K drama or whatever those movies are called >> they've become very famous um >> I see ladies women group you know telling whatever the names of those movies stars whatever else is uh so they've done well I think Thailand has done very well I think Bali as a destination is >> done very well >> Rajes was saying has done extremely well >> what did Thailand get right I feel like nowhere in world >> price value relationship ship in a very clean atmosphere.

So our Swatch Bharat mission has to be accomplished which is as important as the infrastructure is and that coupled with the Atiti Devo Bhavo and value will come only when the supply increases. As as we discussed earlier, we have certain peaks when prices go up, occupancies go up and then if you took the average, it isn't that expensive. So if we have a healthy supply of properties which can come because of the positioning of the sector with infra and industry status etc. the supply will go up, the investment in sector will go up, returns will go up and that will help in getting a better price value relationship to get the international uh tourism arrivals to go up in a exponential way in India.

>> Right? >> And in order to do that practically we cannot pick up all of India. We have to pick up the first five or 10 destinations and they should not be the usual ones because they have enough business. So it will not work that well out there. >> For example, >> say like Goa >> I mean there is it can increase by only 10% or so. So there is no point trying to now increase tourism in Goa. There's >> a very healthy level of tourism happening. Uttakhand no you uh similar in Himachel I think they've already this infrastructure cannot take a further load in the short term uh but I would say taking a healthy combination of where the connectivity is if we picked up a few destinations on spiritual a few on resorts and a few on business that will get you to 10 >> and then you're done >> like darham shala For example,

>> there's connectivity and a new airport coming up, right? Or expansion happening. But right now there's only one flight or ATR plane that that flies, right? And there is a stadium there. There's sports tourism and we didn't really speak about that. The event triggered travel that is happening. That's another big thing that is happening. >> Honestly, we are coming out with these many destinations because there is demand for that. You would literally see that you know there are one set of people who wants to you know go to some local festivals like zero then there are people who want to go to toatina in Spain so we are very certain that we just want to tap onto every experience that's possible because people are willing to buy that right somebody has gone to Europe now next year want to do like a music festival for example we are doing exit festival in in Egypt wherein the concert is going to happen um you know between the pyramids right So target audience for every different experience is different. Everybody like sellers like buyers are there we are

just selling it because with AI in the picture you will get the best itineraries everything will be sorted your tickets will be sorted everything is sorted but what is missing the human connection right and people are seeking that so anything that is community based that involves human touch would boom so tech is there AI is there but for human connections such communities are coming into picture and you would see so many of coming right now and the next 6 years or maybe 5 years you will see an immense boom into this. It's still booming of course but yeah >> you know a lot of people are just traveling to just uh be watch the concert or the the IPL game or the >> you know sort of any sporting event right >> and more and more you do and now we have the stadiums and we have that infrastructure that stadium infrastructure is in place right now look at many cities that and if we can

accommodate you know like hundreds and thousands of people for cricket you can do it for every sport right and those could be multi-purpose stadiums as well right and it can attract huge amount of traffic >> so that part of infrastructure is there now you have to solve for connectivity and then supply on that uh in in destination like Darham Shala doesn't have too many hotels in in coming up with one uh I mean you know there are few but that thanks to you know because Indian team will come and stay there there's one hotel you know and then nobody will and there will be hardly any sort of place left but um but that's a good example of a new place that can be developed right because that's Dalada Hills and the whole circuit is beautiful >> right >> and unexplored relatively >> right so so likewise you can do a lot >> and and a couple one key route on cruise tourism and one key route on worldclass

>> train what we have is good or even very good but it does not feature in the top three in the world and if that needs certain subsidies for it to become how much subsidy can you need or require for a one luxury train it's not it's not such a big amount >> and maybe even senior tourism old rich people >> that is happening anyways but what we could have is more as a part of u the industry engagement, more senior friendly like we used to do uh for women travelers floors. They should be floors which are really for people who are 65 and above or 70 and above so that slip and fall. Those kind of things of those bathrooms are not like just that they look good but that they are very practical for senior people.

>> Even wildlife there isn't enough. Right? There is but that is the one which is more difficult to be a good financial uh value because those are small lodges 12 14 18 20 rooms they get a good rate but they also shut down four five 6 months in a year sometimes. So you have to make all that business within 6 months for it to be viable over a year. You're right talking about that by the way and again there is market for wildlife is one very big interest area for premium crowd for example. So one of the ex-coounders Kayu Jooshi of Make My Trip, he's actually built a resort in Tippai not very far from Nagpur. So connectivity is also beautiful and all.

I think it was really hard for him to build because it was a bit of a journey acquisition of land and and approvals and but doing very well because it is just obviously it'll take some time for it to sort of get to break even and start making money and all because a little longterm and he had that long-term vision. uh but now the traction is building up because there is no other such resort nearby right so it's basically in the middle of wildlife that you are providing that stay experience which is much more than stay alone right I think there's market for that so these are the kind of niches for premium you know what you were talking about the super premium going to private charters going to you know for in for instance uh you see we may not have a very big charter market we have a charter market but very limited private charter but that's all business use case

in fact lot of that inventory is idle so if you do an Uber on charters there will be lot of inventory that'll be available >> yeah because not necessarily that play that those many business trips are happening on charter right there is idle capacity >> is that a good business idea private jet charter >> I think So >> uh but there is no supply hardly any >> supply of planes or >> of planes right >> I think also logistically the landing charges the airport handling charges have gone up too much >> that's what I was talking about the functional airports >> and Bombay has gone up 200%. That that's the catch right because you have very expensive infrastructure and therefore economics don't work out.

>> So the businesses have to become viable for that cost of running that business has to be reasonable right then only you can make capital investment. See you can think about like even a 10-year horizon you know because the scale of the opportunity or the size of the opportunity is really huge but can I see line of sight you know after 5 years that I will get to profitability or not right that is very that is key and that is a function of your operating cost >> right >> right because see there is I don't think India has reached that stage again Maybe premium niche will be different that the size will be good enough for you to be able to price your product accordingly because they would not necessarily look for value in that they will look for experience in that. But there is a limit uh to that that you can do right if it just on the face of it looks very expensive.

>> Yeah. >> Then you would not have market for that. >> Fair. Anything else? >> I think you covered a lot. You don't give up. >> Yeah. No, >> no, but you've covered uh >> we do this and then we hope some people start a business. >> Yeah. No, no, absolutely. >> And happy to and you have so much, you know, as part of your foundry initiative as well. Anyone who's thinking about travel tech, anyone who's thinking about out of box niche area, I don't think the advice should be to start another similar me to kind of a model in a crowded space already because that era is gone to be honest because the internet early 20 years ago there was an opportunity.

>> Yeah. >> You can't do it now because what's the point of doing it again and again and you'll have hyper competition. But if you can pick up the the niches and different take on maybe different consumer cohorts and the problem that have not been solved and we've spoken about few then I'm all ears. >> If you guys don't mind I'll take both your email ids and put it up. >> Happy to. >> So a lot of people will reach out with ideas and >> happy happy to share mine. >> It's in the jacket.

>> No no we'll put it later. We'll put it on the video. But no, thank you guys for taking the time and doing this. >> Thank you. >> This was good. >> But no, thank you guys so much. >> I know you have to go and thank you. >> No, no, >> absolutely. No, this was wonderful. >> This was fun. >> Any parting words that you would like to tell the audience about either building this space or about the travel and tourism sector? Uh we believe uh that um potential in the tourism world in the adventure travel world uh is big within our country and for our countrymen our country people >> building brands takes time even longer because you know uh by throwing money at the customer you can buy transactions you can't buy brand love >> this business is not built on discounts it's built on experience >> if you're not joining if you're not coming on a trip with us sorry you're missing out >> India needs a industry like a new industry tourism could be it but it

needs a high capital investment industry where foreign money flows in >> manufacturing >> we don't have one right now manufacturing is not happening >> no we don't have it right now but potentially that can be one thing >> manufacturing is uh too ecosystem heavy it's not one problem you have to solve 10 problems >> whatever industry India goes for my recommendation would be please don't compete with China. >> Yeah. >> Because >> can't win >> uh miles ahead.

But I'm saying I I was looking at it from an employment generation standpoint. uh because if IT services is going to get disrupted and software development is becoming easier and easier then what are the other industries which are untapped like for example agriculture is one which is completely then zero reforms on agriculture side right and similarly and given that we still have lot of manpower and in the manufacturing world AI can be very successfully embedded into the core business for cost efficiency, productivity gains, etc. But you still have a lot of people who could be deployed.

I I think India will have to start thinking on those lines for future infrastructure related projects. That's has to be done anyways. But one thing which India is completely lacking >> in my opinion is besides Taj there is no hospitality brands maybe there is no brand from India and consumer which is known outside of India >> that we are trying >> that we are trying to build through foundry >> that you are true >> sir maybe Sabya will be another one >> but we need at least 10 15 >> is also for Indians.

>> Yeah. No, but Taj is also for Indians. But your branding power has to be outside of it. >> Globally, no. Absolutely. Mhm.