The Biggest Content Mistake Creators Are Making — Transcript

One of the most interesting debates that I've watched play out in the last decade is the concept of quantity versus quality. Quantity is not debatable. You either make 800 pieces of content or you make one. Quality is subjective. What makes quality? Is it the production value? Is it the substance of your video? Is it the lighting? Is it the audio? I believe quantity is a meaningful competitive advantage. And I think the receipts have played out. If you look at the people that are winning, quantity is a very consistent variable in the brands and the people that have elevated over the last 3 years. More content on more platforms and that mattered and that's what it is for everyone right now. I will say it again for all the creative people out there demonizing quantity is the great vulnerability of your career.

>> I want to talk to you about a term that you've coined and that's interest media. >> Yeah. You've said that we're in this world where social media is dead. Yes. And it's all about interest media. So, first for the audience, can you define what that means? >> Yeah. I think social media was coined on the, you know, with the premise that you would get content from people you followed, your social circle. I think, you know, I was very fascinated when I invested in Tumblr because I thought Tumblr was different in 2008. I think when I invested in it, I'm like, "Oh, this is weird. You follow like art or like music. you don't follow people. And that was a foreign concept. I was very taken by it. If you look back at my digital receipts, I was also a very loud advocate for musically when it looked like it was just 13 and 14 year old girls dancing. And by the way, I was very cautious to go in there. I was like, uh, you know, like it's really young people. But what was interesting was I already saw what I saw on Tumblr, which was musically was giving you content in a different way. And then Tik Tok was when I and obviously I got very

loud about Tik Tok years ago precoid because I saw what was happening which was I didn't have a word for it interest media but I was realizing you were getting content served to you around your behaviors on the platform not just the behaviors of who you were following and I think everyone who's listening knows this especially this podcast which talks about this in depth. People know that we now get content based on what we're currently interested in, not who we follow. >> Yep. And side note, I remember the year must have been 2016 and my first job out of college, I worked for Aldi, the German to open their stores and I was based in Chicago um south side of Chicago driving around. I remember when you were doing daily the the daily talking about musically.

>> Yes. >> And >> at the time >> I didn't get it. I was like, why is he so obsessed with these middle schoolers are who are singing? And I think now what makes you >> such a I mean, I already said the word legend, but you are truly the best in the space because you have these time capsules of you talking over a decade ago about what was going to happen and then we're we're watching it happen ahead of our eyes, you know.

>> Yeah. I mean, I'm very it's you know, it's funny. I when I launched the website in 1997 in those early years, I got a lot of press pretty early on because I built a very large wine business and it I remember like in my 20s being sad that I wouldn't always be a whiz kid. I remember feeling it. I'm like, man, this is so cool. This is so fun, man. When I get older, it's not going to be like this. I would have never understood. I wished 50-year-old me and I didn't dwell on it so it wasn't a big deal but I remember thinking it >> and it's really fun to be a little bit of an OG like you know it's so humbling to have the words like even when you said it when you first introed me I'm like this is so neat so many of you are now byproducts been affected by look at me the way I looked at people when I was a kid it's very humbling it's very um and and it's really fun for me cuz I still am in a really cool spot where it's not nostalgic, meaning I'm still in

my prime. You know, I'm not an athlete. My body's not breaking down and I have to wrap up soon. I'm a businessman. I know many 70 and 80year-old businessmen and women who are still in it. So, for me, it's like, oh, I'm in this cool spot where I have the best of both worlds, where I, you know, I can have some roses on some of the things I've accomplished, but I have so much more to accomplish. And yeah, I mean when I hear that, you know, that's just the luck of the draw a little bit with DNA. Like I do have a very strong intuitive. I was doing a podcast recently where I talked to I'm like I'm like a music ANR. Like you know I think about those music A&Rs in the 70s and ' 80s. It's always fun to be in LA because so much of that MLY all that early8s rock band stuff like you know they walked into a bar and they saw a bunch of kids playing and they just knew. And I, you know, Nirvana and Pearl Jam and Mly Crew and Guns and Roses and Van Halen and Duran Durant, like I I read those stories. I've watched the documentaries. I think I have that with

platforms. I think I just have a really intuitive understanding, including the ones that didn't work out. One of the things I'm very proud of, people talk about the Tik Tok or the Facebook. They don't talk about the fact that when everyone was saying Peach was going to be big. I didn't. They don't talk about when everyone was saying, you know, XYZ was uh Vero. >> I remember Vero got a lot of heat and I was like, uh-uh. Like I'm also pretty proud of like the ones I didn't say this is the next big thing. I try to be calculated. I don't want the bad receipts on the internet. And uh I am proud of my radar. Listen, nobody bats a thousand. Um, but uh, but I learned from all of them like Vine and Social Cam and photo and Daily Booth. Daily Booth was a big one that really was a precursor to Instagram or path or, you know, and so it it's fun to go through those chapters >> and something I want to dig into with this interest media world. So really, someone today with no following can put

out a piece of content that outperforms someone who has millions of followers. That's right. >> Does that mean in your perspective that the creative is actually winning over the individual creator? >> Well, I wouldn't say winning over, it's that every creator has a level of merit that we've never seen before. So, I'm a creator. I have a lot of followers. I go through hot streaks and cold streaks. I feel like I'm starting, in fact, I can feel it that I'm in a hot streak right now. I'm starting to tune it up properly. A year ago, I felt like I was in a cold streak.

>> That didn't mean that, you know, a stra somebody who doesn't have an account has an advantage over me. I still have my followers and followers still have some sort of inherent opportunity for more reach. >> But it is, it's why I'm so intoxicated with it. It's like sports, right? like Kobe Bryant at the end of his career, may rest in peace, was not the same player he was in his prime, and that meant a young LeBron or young Steph Curry could outperform him. I think that's what I love about where content is right now. I'm a legend, at least. Thank you for saying that. I've done a good job. I'm proud of who I've been. But last year when I wasn't at the top of my game, I love that you that people that just started had an opportunity to outpace me, get more views, get more recognition, and that's um that's fun.

And I love the merit of that. So I would say it's it's a merit of the individual content. >> Um and so I don't think it's the piece of content over the creator because the creator creates the content. It's just the content, baby. You know what I mean? like as they say in the old Hollywood ways like it's you know it's it's just the content and that should be intoxicating you know like all of us in this room behind the camera in front of the camera we've had better eras of content creating than others the fact that tomorrow if you decide to get back in the game if you make good content you're back in the game you know for me last year I was so head down building be friends and VCR and Vayner Sports and Vayner Media I wasn't as good of a content creator I was too much of Gary the operator Mhm.

>> Um, but this year when I used the holidays to reset and say, "Hey, this is still the top of your funnel." Like, get your act together, brother. Like, I have and I'm doing better. >> I love that. I love that. Now, we've talked about interest media and really the the reason for that shift on all of these social platforms is really because the algorithms, the tech behind them is changing and so has AI. AI has introduced really this new dynamic that it seems like it has exploded over the last two years. And in the creator economy today, the thing that AI is really best at is creating more content.

Yet in interest media, which you just spoke to, creating content, it's really about creating the best content, right? Because content is the best video is going to win. So really, there's two options. If you're a creator today, you can use AI to scale or as a creator, you can deliberately choose to not use AI and potentially use that as a way of standing out. But because you've also said that one of the best things that you can do as a human creator today is to lean into your authenticity and your humanness in order to build your audience. How what's your advice for someone who's who's really thinking about gosh, there are so many AI tools today as a creator to use yet should I go anti- AI? Should I lean into it? There's just so much confusion. So, what's your take? >> My take is that all of us should fall in love with and, not or. One of the most interesting debates that I've watched play out in the last decade is the concept of quantity versus quality. Let me be very blunt with this. Quantity is not debatable.

You either make 800 pieces of content or you make one. Right? It's it's it's not subjective. It's objective. 800 versus one is 800 versus one. Quality is subjective. What makes quality? >> Is it the production value? Is it the substance of your video? Is it the lighting? Is it the audio? So, couple things. One, first I believe quantity is a meaningful competitive advantage and I think the receipts have played out. If you look at the people that are winning, quantity is a very consistent variable in the brands and the people that have elevated over the last three years. Now that doesn't mean you can't win on quality and make one meaningful. They both exist. They both matter.

>> We have AI and people who are very much adopting it and part of the workflow. On the other side of the spectrum, seemingly the opposite, is IRL, humanto human connection. >> The barbell. >> Yes. >> I love the barbell. >> Yeah. When you're when you're thinking about how a person by person, a creator or a brand incorporates IRL events, human connection into their strategy. H how do you think about that?

>> I think it's the biggest thing. I'm investing in a Vayner X. We're building a substantial experiential infrastructure. I cannot believe in IRL more. I believe with the extreme digitalization, we're seeing the emergence of clear indication that IRL is growing in importance. Music events, sporting events, all-time highs, non-smartphones, vinyl, kids asking for Polaroids and cameras and DVD players and Walkman's. Um, in fact, I said another podcast earlier today like I'm thinking about starting a drive-in movie theater business. Like, I'm very bullish IRL.

I'm very bullish on detoxing from technology. At the same token, AI is going to win. Like I don't understand what part of like what do you think? You're not going to use AI >> in terms of the human to human connection again because I think this is really your superpower. I want to actually show you a video. It's a quick video. It's of you. >> Okay. >> That this is what I think of when I think of you. >> I I know one day I'm going to be somebody and you'll know when I I'll definitely find >> Please look at my face. You're somebody now.

>> Do you understand? >> Yeah. >> That's the game. >> If you don't think you're important, it's almost like your results don't matter. Who are you disappointing? Yourself? Those are voices that were put inside of you by somebody else. Do something. Fight for it. Fight to be happy. Listen to positive >> That's a funny game. Miraculous thing happens when you cut out your most pessimistic friend. You become more optimistic. We are in some crazy dynamic of like overanalyzing everything so much with a layer of cynicism that is making everybody go crazy. If you are a good person and you're trying truly trying and not trying to hurt anybody, you're phenomenal. >> So that video is one that to me it just is so classic you and everything that you stand for. >> Yeah. And today you're one of the most famous people on the internet. But I think what is really incredible is you're somehow able to make these underdogs and people who are in the early stages of building feel like you're just one of them.

>> Cuz I am. >> So where does that come from? >> Well, first it comes from a deep desire for other people to be happy, too. It's just in me, you know, DNA, parenting, circumstance. I get more joy when I see someone who isn't constantly joyful have moments of joy. It's always been in me, >> right? And, you know, it's the greatest gift of my life. Really, it is. >> I don't know. I just I I don't like the idea of people not realizing how miraculous life is. It's so crazy we're alive. >> I don't, you know, I failed every science class I ever took, but I just can't wrap my head around the insanity of that exact second of your parents deciding to hook up leads to you living. And to squander that on overly focusing on everything that isn't

versus focusing on everything that is seems illogical to me. >> I understand why I spend a lot of time on psychology, but >> yeah, I'm incredibly motivated to help. >> You know, I think once you're good, you aren't left with much else than to make everyone else good. I just got good way earlier than most. >> And I don't mean financially. I'm talking about somewhere around fifth or sixth grade, just started getting really clear to me that life was simple, that I was who I was, that I was not going to listen to anybody outside of my own head and feelings, and that, you know, I've just been happy for the, you know, and I just want other people to be happy, too. >> It's hard to give if you're not in a good place. >> Yeah. It's very easy to give when you're in a good place. >> I want to give.

>> And considering how often you're talking to strangers who who know your content and you're really trying to be the source of >> inspiration and you can do this and really like these positive affirmations to people. Does that energize you? Does that exhaust you to an extent? >> It energizes me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. that feels like, you know, and you know what I get a lot of pride in is my stuff's also not grounded in delusion.

>> I'm not saying you can do it because you're just going to pray that you can do it. I say you can do it if you take action, >> but you'll never take action if you don't think you can do it, >> right? Like if you don't think you can achieve it, you're not going to do it. like I really really really really want to be a professional athlete, but I didn't put the work into it because I knew there was no light at the end of the tunnel. Um, luckily life and your happiness and your psychology and your emotions. That doesn't take physical skills.

>> And so you can put in the work no matter what you were given. Mhm. >> If you were given the low end of the straw with DNA, if you were born into a very challenging environment, sports, you can't become 69 when you're 5'4. But in real life therapy, you know, who you surround yourself with, what you consume, >> you know, who you choose to spend your life with, >> once you're 18, that that's incredible. Do you know how incredible that is >> that you could be in last place with your circumstances and emotions, but if you put in the work, you can end up in first place. That is the miracle of life.

>> What do you do for your own mental health? I mean, you have you have got to have some days that are ups and downs like everyone. >> I run like a bunch of companies. There's not a single day where I don't have bad news. Like in between today driving around LA and these podcasts like there's constant issues popping up in my phone. >> You know, for me, I use perspective. I'm really big on it. Like what if today was perfect and I made a trillion dollars, but god forbid something bad happened in real life, aka your family. You know, >> I'm very simple.

>> Um, I think I use the New York Jets. I'm not kidding. I use sports, other things I'm interested in as outlets. >> You know, the Knicks are about to go into some big playoff games here. During those three hours, I tune out the whole world. I'm just engulfed in something that's silly, right? Sports is, you know, in real life is silly, but it's an incredible escapism. Other people use music. Other people use movies. Other people use golfing or sailing or walking on the beach or hiking. You know, for me, what's really funny is for me, one of the things I use is another business.

I really I'm really creative in how I think about my work. As an entrepreneur, I gravitate towards the creative side much more than the operational side, even though I'm a real operator. >> So, I try to make myself happy, whatever that is. >> Um, and I fight for that. >> And you, in terms of the the family tie, so you worked with your dad for decades. >> Yes. >> You have two kids. >> Yes. My question for you is of everything that you're building today across your however many verticals, I've lost track at this point, which one would you actually want your kids to be involved with at some point. >> Well, that's interesting. Um, none. And what I mean by that is I have zero, and I mean literally zero, wants for them to do anything within my world.

The real answer to your question is whichever one got them going. You know, I'm I don't want my kids to be anything like me other than one thing. I want them to actually like what they do because it scares me so much to think about how much percentage of everyone's life is spent on doing what they do. Mhm. >> Whether they're a stay-at-home parent, whether they have a professional career, when you take out sleep, it's scary how much of your life is what you do.

>> Yeah. >> Right. Even if you're 9 toing it, it's still 40 hours. Add your 40 hours of sleep. You know, it's so, you know, my son loves sports. My daughter's incredibly strategic and creative. I can guess, but I don't have wants for them to be in my stuff. >> Yeah. You know, I I want them to be happy and I want them to be fulfilled. >> And if they took the most non- entrepreneurial path, great. As long as it's their path, I want them to be on fire, >> you know? >> Yeah.

>> I don't really think about it much really. I don't I'm, you know, and they're getting older and like it's more clear of who they are. I just, you know, there's a lot there's a lot of shitty things that come with along with them coming into my world. you know, if they come into my world, they they'll have to deal with like how strong are they emotionally to deal with the judgment of society that they didn't do anything. They got put on third base, >> right? So, like I don't know like there's a lot of ways to think about I just want them to be happy. >> Mhm. and everything that you've done with your business. You've really led and we keep going back to this human connection, but one area it's been really fun to watch your your evolution into this this vertical of the friends where you are very much in front of the camera. There's the commerce angle. There's the live shopping angle. And as someone who's built such a prolific company in the marketing space, seeing you have this this new play and I want to read a quote that

you've said about about this transition. You've said, "I wanted to go from Mickey Mouse as Gary Vee to Walt Disney." So, when did you decide that you wanted to be more of this holding company instead of the main character? >> I've always been fascinated with intellectual property. >> Always. Like my sister's behind the camera right now. Like we grew up in that great ear like literally within five minutes of our childhood. Cabbage Patch Kids, My Little Pony, Care Bears, Rainbow Brite, Poochie, Transformers, you know, even wrestling with Hulk Hogan and and Gobots and Thundercats and He-Man. It's like if you're a 80s baby, you were bombarded by the standing up of an ungodly amount of net new intellectual property. Video games and Mario and Pac-Man. Like it was just like it's like a nostalgic brewhaha. I was very affected by it. It

was always in my mind to some degree that I was that I gravitated to. You know, I am dramatically more creative than the public knows. Like as a kid, like I would draw my wrestling figures and cut them out and put them on cardboard and me and Robbie Turnick would like wrestle with them. There was a lot of creativity. My mom was very creative when I ran for president in fifth grade. My mom made these banger signs, vote for Gary Vee. Like like there's a lot more of that. And I I've started tapping into that when I doodled be friends 5 years ago when I established all of them. That quote is now been updated. I realize it's even more Jim Henson than it is Walt Disney.

A I'm very proud of creating V friends, but the mission behind VR drives me. Ver is just Gary Vee in 250 forms. Patient panda and patient pig will take on my messages of patience. Empathy elephant will take on my Listen, I have been able to build a lot of notoriety and you know, you humble me every time we cross paths. Like there's people that admire me. There's a lot of people that I'm not their cup of tea. I curse. I'm a little too New Jersey. They don't like it. And that's okay. I understand that. Not everyone's going to resonate with everyone. But what I'm spitting, what's coming out of my soul, I think is much needed. I think there's too much hate and negativity and cynicism in the world. And I am fully about love and accountability and and the values of competition and the values of, you know, patience and warmth and love. So, I'm very motivated by making my characters famous cuz I want somebody I want kids to wear accountable aunt pajamas and ask their mom, "Mommy, what's accountability mean?" I when Liz and I were growing up, He-Man ended every He-Man with saying

like, you know, that they would literally run an episode of He-Man and then Adam, which is He-Man Before He's He-Man, would come on screen and say like break the fourth wall and be like, "Hey kids," and remember today's, you know, episode is like, you know, love your sister and be like, "Oh my god, I got to love my like like the cartoon, you know, G.I. Joe." And now, you know, like there was good care bears like there was good messages. Now there's so much garbage. So, you know, building beef friends is the most selfish and selfless thing I'm ever going to do professionally. Selfishly, I think I'm going to build a multi-billion dollar IP. Selflessly, I believe that I'm going to contribute to modern parenting in a meaningful way that is really intoxicating and motivating. And I'm already feeling it. I get a lot of girl dad stuff. Two of the biggest characters in Be Friends are Fearless Ferry and Ambitious Angel. and they're like top five ten characters >> and my tra if somebody's watching right now if you collect Pokemon or one piece

go to eBay right now and type inve.com friends excuse me enter and sold items you'll be flabbergasted what's going on with our trading cards stickers coins and comic books I get probably five emails a day now from dad saying thank you for creating V friends when I go to the sports card store it was always easy with my son we b her but my daughter would always be like bored and and now we're collecting reffriends together and her favorite character is, you know, the spontaneous seahorse or the daring dragonfly.

It's really really motivating, really intoxicating to be on the receiving end of those emails >> and I'm proud of it and and I I do predict that it's the company that's going to steal my heart right now. I have a lot of companies and I'm actively very involved, but there's no there's no meeting I ever have at Vayner Media or at Vayner Sports or at VCR Group or Vayner Watt or the pickle ball team or the or wineex.com. There's no meeting I have during the day from the other companies that feels as good as the befriends meetings. >> That's great. And the live shopping piece is a core part of of Ephraim. And I see you on there. I see you on whatnot. I see you on Tik Tok. Yes. >> It's been it's been huge. And I mean more macro live shopping. You have been talking about this for years. It's finally hitting the mainream. Tik Tok shops. USGMB is on track to exceed $20 billion this year. >> What is different now in 2026

that has led to this massive hockey stick growth? Grant and whatnot and Tik Tok forced it like the executors executed. >> You know, Bezos doesn't have social DNA. >> Yeah. >> Z doesn't have retail DNA. >> In China, the founders just happen to have a little bit more of both. Tik Tok has brought its bite dance energy here and they've made meaningful products in affiliate and in live shopping and the consumer was always ready. Like if somebody took the pendulum seven years ago and pushed it if Instagram executed exactly what Tik Tok live looks like right now, it would have worked seven years ago. It would have. The product wasn't there. You know what made us ready for Uber? Uber was invented.

You know, like the great inventors of our time always say, "If I listened to the audience, I don't remember who said it, but that famous quote, if I listened to the audience, I would have made a faster horse, not the car." Right? Like, like the inventors made it, we were always ready. QVC works. It still works. It's like, >> and now it's there. And social media is where the attention is. And just like QVC came along for television, television was around for a long time before QVC came along. Social media was around for a long time and finally QVC for social media showed up and we were all ready. >> And now with interest media, you know, my sister didn't have to go follow someone who does live shopping. She just goes through her feed and a live shopping shows shows up. If that is selling something she's interested in, we're going to stop.

>> And that's where we're at. Mhm. So, later this fall, I'm launching my own live stream show. What is your advice for me as someone who is going to be showing up live three to four times a week? What What's your advice for someone who hasn't been in the space who's getting into the space? >> Are you doing a live show more like, you know, like what we see on Twitch or TPN or like that? >> Yeah, it'll be more like talking about the news across business and culture. >> Not much. And what I mean by that is you already know. >> Yeah.

>> Right. >> Yeah. >> You know why you're doing it. >> You know it's ready. Like I think my biggest advice is make sure that you post-produce every episode into as much post-production content as possible. >> Yeah. >> So like every show you do I would tell you should be a Substack and Beehive article should be 19 clips >> on every platform. >> I still don't understand why people are not on every platform. It doesn't take another It takes two more minutes to post it on Snapchat spotlight on YouTube shorts. >> Yeah. >> Like it. So I would say I don't have much advice be the reason I don't is because I think you know why you're doing it >> and I think you there's examples of it doing well. So you know what's going on out there. >> Yeah.

>> It's more of exe. It's kind of like it's kind of like exercise. Um one of the things I'm very proud of is that my trainers taught me how to do the exercises the right way. They said, "Listen, you're going to do less curls. You're not going to feel as cool as some of the guys in the gym, but we're not going to let you swing. We're going to teach you how to do it right, and that will help you." >> I would say that, you know, like going to the gym comes in two forms. Doing it right and doing it wrong. >> And I would say what you're about to go on is, you know, that the gym is right.

You know, live is right. >> Now, it's about doing your form properly. And for you, that isn't the content because you know how to do that. It's postp production. >> Yes. Yes. >> Got it. >> Which is why TVPN I think did so well because their production value when you watch it, it's cosplaying. Like it is ESPN meets Bloomberg feels. >> But what also worked and they're also they're always sweet to me when I'm on it is I met with them early on and I said, "Guys, more >> more content on more platforms." And that mattered. >> Yeah.

>> And that's what it is for everyone right now. I will say it again for all the creative people out there. Demonizing quantity is the great vulnerability of your career. >> That's good. Okay, we're going to go to a lightning round and the last three questions I ask every guest. >> You got it. >> Okay, so as technology changes, we've talked a lot about platform shifts, the AI of it all. We're entering an era of firsts. So I want to do a lightning round about some of your firsts. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> What was your first viral video? My first viral video was one of ep what was it? Episode 100 something of Wine Library TV where I went to a supermarket and bought a bunch of different flavors of things, gooseberry and thyme and all these different things that show up in wine and I did an episode where I tasted those items including dirt and it went super viral. It led to the Conan O'Brien and Ellen Degenerous and today's show having me on my first viral video and I knew it. If Eric Castner is watching right now, we went to Kings in Short

Hills and we're buying all this stuff and I looked him dead in the face at the register and said, "This video is going to go viral." >> Wow. >> Which is crazy cuz I don't know if I've ever been right about another viral video though that you're somebody now. When I said it to her, we got in the car. I'm like, "Fuck, that's going to hit." Cuz I felt it. I got the goosebumps, you know? But that was my first flower video. A wine video where I was tasting fruity pebbles and gooseberry and blueberry and it a cigar. I ate a cigar and I was like, you get cigar in some Bordeaux and it went crazy. Went on, it was on dig.com's front page and it just went techrunch. It was big.

>> Okay, great. Who is the first person you call with good news? >> My mom. >> Who's the first person you call with bad news? >> No one. >> Wait, say more. I know this is lightning round, but that's too >> It's funny cuz this my sister and I were just talking about this in the car. It's either my greatest strength or my greatest weakness. And I know the answer is a little bit of both. It's just not how I do things, you know. Um, bad news kind of like the my first move with bad news is internal. I need to go into my lab and play with it >> and then if I even tell anyone about it, it'll come out random. It's not very It's not how I work.

>> And I used to think it was a super strength. I'm aware that it's a vulnerability, but yeah, it's just the truth. >> What are you still waiting to do for the first time? >> That's a great question. >> Nothing pops to mind. What am I waiting to do for the first There's nothing I really want to do. It's not like I want to go like skydiving or um I I want to give you something. I'm going to share something that I've touched on in content, but I don't know. I'm going to go a little bit deep. I'm deeply curious if I'll ever take a real break.

>> I'm curious. I have a feeling I have it in me, but I'm not sure if it's ever going to happen. The whole like sell them all or set up all the things I have to do and let them run and just check out for a year. The issue is I I feel like I have to sell them because if I know they're running, I won't be able to relax. I wonder if I can just completely take responsibility off my chest professionally cuz as a parent, you'll never, you know, that ship has sailed. But professionally, I wonder if I'll ever do that. I run very hot and cold on it. Sometimes I think I can really go there and other times I'm like I'm dying at my desk at 93. >> But I do think about that, >> you know, completely completely. Basically my entire life I've had the responsibility to make payroll, you know, like truly make payroll. And um I don't even know what it's like to not be a firefighter,

you know. >> Okay. Well, we'll all be watching. >> All right. Last two questions I ask every guest. >> Please. >> First one. Can you share a system that you have in place that benefits your career or business? And it can really be a system for anything. >> Well, I have a good one because I'm really getting hot on it because I think I got something. I call it 1585. Everything I'm involved in at this point in my career, I want my team to involve me in the first 15% cuz I need to ideulate and make it better, contribute my strategic and intuition feeling. >> I then let them go and completely own the next 80%. and then I come in at the last 5% and put a cherry on top or a little whipped cream. >> It really works for me. In fact, it's freaking me out that AI is playing out that way.

So, I see a lot of 15 85 in like being good at the upfront prompt, letting roll, and then editing. >> So, the greatest system of my career is I'm really in the prime of it right now. I'm thinking about writing a book about it. It's called 1585. >> Okay. I love that. All right, next question comes from the social >> I got another one. >> Oh, tell me more. >> Just because I'm hoping this helps people. I'm huge on osmosis. When I hire new senior people, I make them join a ton of meetings where they just listen to the and watch the OGs conduct things.

I love osmosis. >> I think a lot of people learn that way. And so a very big system of mine is senior executives especially spending a lot of time just literally listening in different departments and things that have nothing to do with them. I want them to suck up the culture. It's been a real speed up for people to learn. What is one boring business that you think becomes surprisingly important over the next five years because of the fact that AI is breaking all of these things right now?

>> Um, I've got a lot actually. anything that is inherently analog. >> Um, uh, landscaping businesses, um, restaurants, like these are tough businesses, but people are yearning for real life and we haven't even begun to get into the real AI era. >> If we're booing now, wait.

So, running clubs and like hiking tours and like ski instructing and like I it's just so clear to me the explosion of analog >> as we go more. I think in 10 years it'll clearly be 2036, but it's going to feel like 2065. >> And then I think because of that, the opportunity is to build businesses like it's 1965. >> Ooh, I love that. >> You see where I'm going? >> Yeah. I just can see it. And I think a lot of times extremes lead to balance.

I'm actually very bullish society. I think this extreme AI is going to force balancing into more analog. >> I think you're starting to see the youth gen alpha is already self-regulating themselves with technologies. And I'm just incredibly bullish where the world's going, but I think the big winners are analog businesses. >> Yep. Yep. I I think even what you just said around Gen Alpha there, it seems like the youngest generation is having better boundaries with tech. >> Well, when you're a 12-year-old and your 18-year-old brother is dealing with depression and he's blaming technology, you're like, "Fuck that." >> Yeah.

>> You see what I mean? I think the current demonization of what the bad of technology is doing is leading to that younger kid saying I don't want to have those dark thoughts, >> you know, and everyone's blaming everything on technology the way we used to blame everything on alcohol which led to prohibition. >> So I I don't think we found our equilibrium yet. >> Yeah. >> I think the kids that are 18 today, 15 today, they're affected by us. When we talked about all this technology in 2005, it was Nirvana social. Do you know how amazing Twitter was in 2006? It was all these people that were going to change the world. And it was hippie land. It wasn't this politics negative thing. Friends, if you're listening, you have no idea the nirvana that Twitter 2006 and 7 was. Everyone was polite to each other. Everyone was like, "Oh my god, you're the best. How do I support you?"

it. You had young pioneers that were looking to change the world and they did. They created the Ubers and the Instagrams and the Airbnbs. Um, but there's pendulum swings >> and now we're in the era of like, "This all sucks." When it doesn't. >> And so 12y olds are like, "Oh, this all sucks. that. I'm just going to go take a walk." >> And that's great because they're it's going to end up both. It's always and. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We're going to end with a listener question. This question comes from Jordan. You wrote a blog post back in 2015 talking about how Starbucks was launching a media property. Now 11 years later, it's common knowledge that brands are becoming media properties and you were one of the first people to call this. So for a brand who hasn't yet started this process of really thinking of themselves as a media property or entity, whatever you want to call it, what's the best way to get started? >> By getting started. Let me dissect that.

Gary, let me say it a different way. Gary, let's say this was a long time ago. Gary, you were one of the first people that said eating well and going to the gym and exercising would be good for your body. How would you recommend starting? If there is a company listening right now, whether they're a SAS B2B business or they sell concrete or they sell flowers or handbags that don't realize they're a media company first and then they happen to sell flowers, concrete or handbags, then they have not been paying attention to what I've been yelling about for 20 years and what the world's been yelling about for the last 36 months. And so I would say by starting to make content. So, if you're a flower shop owner, you start literally if you're a writer, you write. And so, you're on Substack and Beehive. If you're a yapper like me, you start making videos or a podcast. You have to find your medium, >> written, word, audio, video, but you need to start making content. And like, you know how you do that? You can interview people. It helps because it makes it easier.

>> You can do what I do and rant because you just have a lot of ideas and you got to get them out. Um, you can document and vlog. You can do a lot of things, but what you can't do is sit on the sidelines because it is a massive competitive business advantage. >> That's a great note to end on. Gary, thank you so much for coming on. I've already sang your highest compliments, but I mean it when I say I will remember this day, this conversation for the rest of my life. >> You're very sweet. Thank you so much.