DEBATE: Is the Doctrine of Purgatory True? (Horn vs. White)

welcome to uh First Lutheran Church I'm

Evan mclanahan I'm the pastor here I'll

be the host and moderator for the uh

debate this evening uh first a few quick

announcements if you need to go to the

restroom it's behind me in a hallway you

can access it through that door you'll

just have to get up and walk in front of

everyone we won't have intermission so

we're all at peace with it do what you

have to do uh if you like these sorts of

theological conversations and debates

you might want to check out especially

if you're in Houston theology by the

pint theology by the.org we have monthly

events and a podcast called theology on

air so check out the website and we want

you to be a part of that

conversation um after the event uh Dr

White who uh his followers and listeners

will know he is in the midst of a five

debate uh teaching tour so he is going

to leave after the debate he's not able

to uh shake hands and sign books but if

you're coming to the debates about a

month from from now then he'll maybe be

able to do that then so please excuse

him uh for that um and after the debate

uh Mr horn will be next door will'll be

signing Books meet and greet yes um you

are probably familiar with both both

speaker so and the uh introductions are

in your program so I'm not going to

spend much time doing that I'll only say

that if you want to learn more about our

speakers you can go to Dr wip's uh

website a.org that's of course for Alpha

and Omega Ministries and uh Tren horn

you can learn more at Tren horn.com both

gentlemen as you know are prolific

authors and podcasters and YouTubers and

allaround

influencers as the kids say these

days uh the format uh for those who

aren't in the room and don't have a

program in their hand uh 15minute

opening remarks 7 Minute rebuttal 4

minute rebuttle two 10minute

cross-examination periods each so that's

10 minutes 10 minutes 10 minutes 10

minutes 40 minutes total uh then 20

minute

Q&A uh we're not doing Q&A from the

floor you will have to write your

question and then I will be the one who

chooses which questions to ask they will

have one minute to answer and then a 30

minute 30 second response depending on

who the question is addressed to if your

WR handwriting is not read readable if

it's illegible I think is that word um

it will not be considered so please do

your best and write carefully what you

want uh the question to be I will be

picking those up before the cross

examination okay so before the cross

examination is when I will be picking

them up that will give me 40 minutes to

filter through the questions so um then

uh after that we'll have five minute

closing remarks and that will be it uh

normally in these uh events the person

answering in the affirmative goes first

that will be true tonight the question

is is the doctrine of pergatory true our

Roman Catholic guest uh Trent horn says

yes so he gets to go first so please

welcome our first speaker

[Applause]

tonight all right well I'd like to thank

James for debating this important issue

and for debating me last night and First

Lutheran for hosting this debate the

catechism of the Catholic Church says in

paragraphs 10:30 and 10:31 all who die

in God's grace and friendship but still

imperfectly purified are indeed assured

of their Eternal salvation but after

death they undergo purification so as to

achieve the Holiness necessary to enter

the joy of Heaven the church gives the

name Purgatory to this final

purification of the elect which is

entirely different from the punishment

of the Damned Purgatory is not an

alternative to heaven or hell it is not

a second chance to be saved and it is

not a place where Sinners work to purify

themselves Purgatory is the way Christ

completes our sanctification or growth

in Holiness Protestants already believe

in sanctification so they should have no

problem accepting this final part of the

process

in tonight's debate I will not be

defending various theological opinions

about purgatory such as its duration or

what it entails I will also not be

defending secondary doctrines related to

it like indulgences since there are

Christians who deny indulgences but

believe in purgatory the Protestant

author CS Lewis compared Purgatory to

visiting a dentist and said our souls

demand Purgatory don't they the

Protestant author Jerry walls a frequent

critic of Catholicism defends Purgatory

in his book Purgatory the logic of Total

Transformation finally the Eastern

Orthodox believe in postmortem

purification but they don't call this

process Purgatory now that we have a

better view of what Purgatory is I will

present two arguments in favor of this

Doctrine first there is the argument

from spiritual cleansing one God can

purify Christians of their desire for

sin no one in heaven will desire sin

some Christians still desire sin at the

moment of death therefore some

Christians will be purified of the

desire for sin after death but before

they enter Heaven premise one follows

from scripture and God's omnipotence if

God can't free us from the desire to sin

he isn't all powerful premise to Follows

from Revelation 21:27 which says of

Heaven that nothing unclean shall enter

it in heaven there will be no actual sin

or even the desire to sin premise three

is known from experience especially in

cases of Christians struggling with sin

who die unexpectedly since all the

premises are true the conclusion

logically follows we will be fully

Sanctified before entering Heaven even

if we are not fully Sanctified when we

die now James might refer to Hebrews

10:14 for by a single offering he has

perfected for all time those who are

Sanctified however Paul says in

Philippians 3:12 he is not yet perfect

and Romans 7:20 Paul says he does evil

because of sin which dwells within me

God will not allow sin in heaven even if

it is hidden under an alien

righteousness of Christ that is imputed

to us as my opponent claims instead God

will fully purify us hence the doctrine

of purgatory second there is the

argument from moral

correction it goes like this when

Christians sin God unpleasantly

disciplines them to morally perfect them

some sins are not unpleasantly

disciplined in this life therefore God

unpleasantly disciplines some Christians

after death to morally perfect them

let's start with premise one Hebrews 12

says my son do not regard lightly the

discipline of the Lord nor lose courage

when you are punished by him for the

Lord disciplines him whom he loves and

chastises every son whom he receives the

word translated chastises is masto which

in every other use in the New Testament

is rendered scourging the verse

literally says God fogs every son with a

whip whom he receives the text goes on

to say God disciplines us for our good

that we may share his Holiness for the

moment all discipline seems painful

rather than Pleasant later it yields the

peaceful fruit of righteousness to those

who have been trained by

it even though Christ saved us from the

Eternal consequences of our sins God

still allows us to suffer the temporary

consequences of our sins such as a

disordered will that is attached to sin

a lack of full fellowship with God the

fitting justice of feeling bad when we

have done bad and even suffering in this

life for example God forgave David's

sins of adultery and murder but still

punished him in this life through the

death of his infant son God does not

punish us arbitrarily but to reorder our

Wills so we can be morally perfected in

him Hebrews says Earthly fathers do this