Norman Ohler: Hitler, Nazis, Drugs, WW2, Blitzkrieg, LSD, MKUltra & CIA | Lex Fridman Podcast #481

- Hitler invited three young tank generals to his

office, and they had a plan, which was the plan to go through the Ardennes

Mountains. That was the victorious idea. So it's not the

drugs, actually, that idea to go through the Ardennes Mountains. If you, if you think

monocausal, you would say that's the reason. That idea was

genius, and Hitler immediately understood it, because before, the

plan was to attack in the north of Belgium, which is the same as World War

I. It becomes a stalemate, and they fight for months, and no one

really moves, and it's bloody, and nothing's happening. It's

bad. But that was the only plan that they had. That's why the high

command said, "No, we're not going to do it. It's stupid." But these three tank generals,

they said, "Look, if we go with the whole army through the Ardennes

Mountains," and like Hitler, "Eh, this is not possible. This is like a mountain range.

How can the whole German army fit through this

eye of a needle," basically. And they said, "No, we can do it because

everyone misunderstands what tanks can do. Tanks are not

slow machines in the back that wait for the

action to happen, and then support this somehow. We're going to use tanks in

the front as race cars, basically. We're going to

overpower the enemy. We're going to be in France

before they know it. We are already behind them, but it would only

work if you would reach Sedan, the border city of France, within three

days and three nights, and that was only possible if you don't stop."

Suddenly, Ranke realized that his moment had come because

he had the recipe how people could stay awake for three days and three nights.

Before that, he was kind of an outsider, like the freak with the drug idea. Suddenly, he became

...like- ..."Okay, tell us, how does it work?" And he gave lectures in front of

the officers, and he wrote a stimulant decree where a whole

army is prescribed a drug, in this case methamphetamine, how much should

be taken, and at what intervals. This became a very big thing.

And then Temmler had to deliver 35 million dosages

to the front lines. And then on May 10th, they took their

methamphetamine and they started the surprise attack through the Ardennes Mountains.

- The following is a conversation with Norman Ohler, author of

Blitzed: Drugs in the Third Reich. A book

that investigates what role psychoactive drugs, particularly

stimulants such as methamphetamine, played in the military

history of World War II. It is a book that two legendary

historians, Ian Kershaw and Antony Beevor, give very high

praise to. Ian Kershaw describes it as, "Very well

researched, serious piece of scholarship." And Antony Beevor

describes it as, "Remarkable work of research."

And it is indeed a remarkable work of research. Norman went

deep into the archives using primary sources to uncover

a perspective on Hitler and the Third Reich that has before this been

mostly ignored by historians. He also wrote

Tripped: Nazi Germany, the CIA, and the Dawn of the Psychedelic

Age. And he's now working on a new book with the

possible title of Stoned Sapiens, great

title, looking at the history of human civilization

through the lens of drugs. This is the Lex

Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the

description and consider subscribing to this

channel. And now, dear friends, here's Norman Ohler.

Tell me the origin story of meth,

methamphetamine, and Pervitin, its brand name drug version, in

the context of Nazi Germany in the late 1930s. Let's start there.

- I think you're right to ask about the context because without the

context, it's not really understandable. So what was the

situation? In the 20s, the Nazi movement basically started, and it started in

Bavarian beer halls. So alcohol was the drug of

choice of the early Nazi movement. The only guy that didn't

drink was Hitler. He was a teetotaler, I guess you

say. So that was happening in Munich. So alcohol and

National Socialism are very closely connected. At the same

time, in the 20s, in Berlin, there was a completely different thing going

on. People were taking all kinds of drugs. This had

to do, actually, with the defeat of Germany in the First World War. I mean, the context

is a big context. The Versailles Treaty had the effect that the German economy

was not really able to recover after the end of World

War I. The Versailles Treaty was written basically by the Western

victorious powers. Germany had no say in the negotiations. And I'm

certainly not a German nationalist, not even a German

patriot, but even I would say that the Versailles Treaty

treated Germany somewhat unfairly. I mean, it laid all the blame on Germany. And,

I mean, a war is a very complex thing, and the First World War

to examine how it actually started is a very complex, you know,

story, and there's many factors to it. But the Versailles Treaty just said it was

Germany's fault, and then Germany had to do all these

payments to the allies. It couldn't create a new economy.

It couldn't have a new army. So it was — the economy really went down. Everything in Berlin

was cheap, and the people were also using

substances that were very cheap in huge quantities. So while in

Bavaria, they were drinking alcohol, and alcohol in the brain,

stimulates behavior, group behavior: us

against them. You can actually examine this. A neuroscientist

would know exactly how this works. While in Berlin, the drugs that were used

were morphine. There was cocaine, there was

mescaline, there was ether. So people were experimenting.

Everyone developed a different mindset. It was all... you know, you didn't

behave in a way

that some kind of authority would like you to behave in, because the authority had

just lost the First World War and there was no real authority

in Berlin. People were doing whatever they wanted to do, and they were intoxicating

themselves in the way they wanted to do it. So the population, in a way, if you

just look at Munich and Berlin, was growing apart. Like, there

were the alcohol people in Munich, the Nazis, and then there were these

weird, diverse, LGBTQ, whatever kind of scene in Berlin. Like,

actresses sniffing ether in the morning and then making crazy moves.

- Could you speak to the nature of the motivation of the drug use in Berlin at the

time? Was it rebellion? Was it a way to deal with the

difficult economic depression? Was it just the natural thing that young people do to

explore themselves, to understand the world, to develop their culture? Like, what do we

understand about drug use there?

- All of these factors come together. But it was the first time in modern history,

in Germany at least, that there was no emperor. Like, before

that, Kaiser Wilhelm, everything was very strict, you know? You

had to... you couldn't go crazy, you know, as a young person. You couldn't

be a young person. But now in the Weimar Republic in the '20s, you could.

No one stopped you, so people went crazy. That's what made

Berlin into the city that it still somehow is. And maybe

later we talk about contemporary Berlin. It kind of... it's

still has that vibe, you know? That's why people still come to Berlin. Drugs are

cheap, you can move however you want, there's no authority. So that created

a rift between the Nazis in Munich, and they always hated Berlin

and what was going on in Berlin. So, for example, Goebbels, the later

propaganda minister, he called the situation in Berlin the

hated asphalt reality of Berlin.

He hated that. And when the Nazis then were able to take power in

1933, one of the first things they did

was to really prosecute people who were taking drugs,

because they wanted to, you know, bring everyone back into the fold.

And I think that's... You asked what was the reason for people taking

so many drugs. They were accessible, they were

cheap, but I think the most important thing is that

they let you find yourself maybe, or lose

yourself, you know? Also possible, you know?

- Can we also talk about that here, because

you have a connection to this place, Berlin, and this

part of the world. Can you just briefly speak to that so

we can contextualize even deeper the personal aspect

of this? Because you understand the music of the people,

the land, its history. There's something you can only really

understand if you've been there and you have taken it

in. And we'll return to this topic in multiple contexts, but in this

particular way, as one human being who writes about this place,

what's your own story?

- I grew up in West Germany, and this was during the World War. And

Berlin, the walled-in city, was always like a big

fascination. There was a wall, there was actually a wall in the city

preventing people to move into another part. And I was from the

West, fortunate enough to be from the free West, so I could

travel to Berlin and I could leave. I could look at it, and I always loved Berlin. I thought it

was a very vibey place. And then when the wall came down, I was still

in school but I immediately got into the car of my parents and drove there.

I wanted to see how it came down. And then Berlin really, in the

'90s, became a place that was very attractive to me and I

moved there then in the '90s. I was first living in New York. I wrote my first

novel in New York, and I loved New York before Giuliani became

mayor. It was... He ruined the city. Before that,

it was not gentrified. Or let's say he introduced gentrification, and

gentrification is a big topic. I still lived in the

ungentrified New York City for like 300 bucks a month rent,

and everyone I knew was an artist.

- You loved the diversity of it?

- Yeah, I loved it. I wrote my first novel there. I took LSD for

the first time in Downtown Manhattan on a Saturday night.

- So you're kind of like a German Kerouac type character, but

moved a few decades forward.

- I wouldn't compare myself to another writer, but I think Kerouac is pretty cool.

But he's an amphetamine writer. "On the Road" was apparently

written in two weeks on amphetamines. And, but it's good. Amphetamines

are not bad per se. We can also talk about these so-called bad drugs,

you know, because basically they're neutral. But let's not lose the thread.

- Yes. Yes. New York, Berlin-

- Even though New York was-

- Yes.

- Oh, yeah. And then I was in New York. I was in a health food store, one of the first.

Like, there weren't health food stores back then a lot, but there was one on

First Avenue. And suddenly there was an announcement,

which was unusual in the health food store. I think it was called Prana, Prana

Foods. And the announcement was that Kurt Cobain had just shot himself.

It was like... and I had been actually, and still am, a

Nirvana fan. I've seen one of the last concerts of Nirvana in

New York City, and it was amazing. But he killed himself.

And the next day, I received a music cassette from a friend

of mine from Berlin with electronic music, and I realized that

there had been a paradigm shift, obviously. Rock music with the hero on

stage was dead. Now it was, you know, dance,

electronic music, which a lot of people today think it's kind of simplistic

music form, but it's actually a very highly intelligent music form. At least it was in

the '90s. People were really experimenting with that music. That was the new

music. That was actually the reason I moved to Berlin. I really decided I'd leave

New York City. I'm going to move to Berlin. And then in

Berlin, to answer your question,

I fell in love with something that probably reminded me

of the '20s, even though I wasn't there in the '20s.

That really... The city was very open. The wall had just... was still, you know...

I mean, it's a few years later, but still, the wall, it felt like it just came down.

There was... Germany was... Berlin was not yet the capital of Germany. That was still in

Bonn. So Berlin was a very

cheap, and cultural, and crazy city, probably a bit like in the '20s, actually.

And that's how I fell in love with it, and that's how I became interested in this electronic scene.

I mean, I visited many dance venues then, so-called clubs.

- Yeah, it's one of the hubs in the world of electronic music.

- They claim that techno was kind of invented in Berlin, but it also comes

from Detroit. So Detroit and Berlin are like the techno hubs, I would say.

- Yeah, electronic music is a soundtrack for some of the most interesting

experiences this earth has ever created, right? Just it gets people

together in some interesting ways. So it's not just the music itself,